LOL Todd. Bill Bryson isn't very popular with Americans. He's a travel writer and a bit of a smart a**.

I've mentioned the opening line from one of his travel books before but it bears repeating. He said "I come from Des Moines, Iowa. Someone had to."

Hi larousse,

Thank you for your thoughtful response. You obviously put a lot of time and thought into it and I appreciate it.


I am not sure I want this marriage. It's kinda funny that during our conversaion last night, WW never asked me what I wanted. She seems to believe that the decision is hers and hers alone; she is wrong.


She knows what I want: honesty, remorse and empathy. She cannot bring herself to any of these.


As she told me last night, nobody can make her stop seeing OM. I told her the goal of exposure was to bring the affair to and end. She said it had no effect on her. Earlier, she had said that she had moved on from OM1 to OM3. Of course, she described the transition as from OM1 to OM2. She doesn't know that I know about OM2.


Firstly, WW will never go to IC or MC. Remember, she thinks all therapists are crazy. Her BF has assured her that this is the case. Secondly, if we were going to IC/MC, candidly, it would not be with the Harleys. I don't like their approach especially the way they implicate the BS as the cause of the affair. If I go to anyone, it will be Dr.Frank Pittman. He is my kind of guy: minces no words and lays blame for affairs squarely on the shoulders of the WS.


We have been separated since March 9. Last night was the first time I had seen her since then.


I have tried this approach, verbally, a number of times. Her response is to lie and argue.


I did say something like "nanny nanny boo boo, you got hit by a tornado". Okay now, just kidding. I told her this last night. She gets angrier when I say it. Have I mentioned that she has a temper? Have I mentioned she won't listen to reason?


I have told her of a couple of elements of proof. She confessed her affair. There is no question. The reason she backpeddles is because OM is angry with her for confessing to me. He is also more than a little afraid of me which proves his sanity. She will play this cat and mouse game for eternity.


If you had been a fly on the wall last night, you would have seen that she is the one who was arguing. I was enjoying my salad and bruschetta.


I have said this a number of times. Until her BF clears her for takeoff, she will never agree to IC/MC.


During confrontations with WW, I am normally very quiet. When she is finished and I try to speak my part of it, she constantly interrupts. Have I mentioned that she has a temper? It is a long standing trademark of her family that when they want to make a point they engage in two characeristic behaviors:

1. Screaming; and
2. Repeating themselves ad nauseam.


Are you my WW? You may have a point? So what to do with it?


I no longer have such a need with her. She believes that if one is diagnosed, they should not receive treatments or surgery because all the doctors are gunning for is money.


I have offered a peace lily; she bit my hand off.


Have I mentioned that she is stubborn?


I asked her this last night. Her answer was that she still needed to be on her own and "have fun". Agzin, that trademark phrase courtesy of her BF.

So she needs your help to legitimize the affair.

BTW, I forgot to mention something. Gemela signed a notarized letter giving me permission to travel alone with the kids to Saudi Arabia. I never needed it. I am not going to post it here but I discovered a very simple and obvious loophole in the airline travel policy for single parents traveling with children. There is no problem with a parent getting kids out of the USA as long as you understand the loophole. It is scary.

I finished Separate Lies. I don't see to many parallels between James and me except possibly the desire to protect WW. Other than that he is a wet noodle. Immediate exposure would have done wonders. I might see some parallels between gemela and Anne but Bill and pool boy have nothing in common other than being English. James obviously wanted to give Anne every chance to return to the M and, if she had, all would have been forgiven. Anne chose OM at every turn regardless of the circumstances or consequences.

It was not a depressing movie to me but it did not generate much optimism for me either.

Once upon a midnight dreary, while I pondered, weak and weary,
Over many a quaint and curious volume of forgotten lore,
While I nodded, nearly napping, suddenly there came a tapping,
As of some one gently rapping, rapping at my chamber door.
"'Tis some visitor," I muttered, "tapping at my chamber door-
Only this, and nothing more."

Ah, distinctly I remember it was in the bleak December,
And each separate dying ember wrought its ghost upon the floor.
Eagerly I wished the morrow;- vainly I had sought to borrow
From my books surcease of sorrow- sorrow for the lost Lenore-
For the rare and radiant maiden whom the angels name Lenore-
Nameless here for evermore.

Then this ebony bird beguiling my sad fancy into smiling,
By the grave and stern decorum of the countenance it wore.
"Though thy crest be shorn and shaven, thou," I said, "art sure no craven,
Ghastly grim and ancient raven wandering from the Nightly shore-
Tell me what thy lordly name is on the Night's Plutonian shore!"
Quoth the WW, "Nevermore."

Yes, WW knocked on my door out of the blue. Outside on her cell; stay tuned...... for news!

Yes I love Poe.

Okay ToddAC, your WW does not appear to want to R for the sake of R. On the other hand she appears desperate. I just wonder what is the source of this desperation? Beware of Greeks bearing gifts.

Put your radar on full. Do NOT get into an argument. Keep your anger in check. Try to use your intellect to get to the root of your WW's sudden panic.

Okay I have triple checked my Gillette M3P razor and I cannot find a USB port. My guess is it must be bluetooth. I am desperate to upload MP3 music to it so I can listen while I shave. Maybe it is defective?

hoopsie[sic?] posted a reply to me on another thread. An hour ago I was ready to divorce WW. Now I am not. Interesting.

Hello Todd,

thanks for your comments to my post.

I feel that the power of the relationship has moved to your court.

She has just started her advances towards you. (Tiburon music here, please.) <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

How about finding out when Pittman gives consultations and have the info ready and tell WW in one of her next phone calls. When her walls start to fall you just tell her to meet you with Pittman.

Don't put to much weight into her words right now, she's testing you.

You show her your strenght by living your life the best you can.

This is just begining, I think. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

WW just left. I invited her to do so.

She knocked on my door out of the blue earlier this afternoon. Very sweet. She drove me to buy a few groceries and then we went to dinner. I must admit, the best few hours we have spent together since DD. We came back "home" and put on a movie. She even brought her PJ's. A little presumptuous on her part perhaps but heck, things were going okay. In fact, really good.

Then Frankenstein took over. She started screaming out of the blue that I abandoned her and turned her kids against her. I told her we went through five installments of that show last night and I was not going through it again. As is customary for her family members, her real family, she repeated herself several times. I told her that I had identified the source of the problem: she wants to bury her affair like a dog buries a bone and she wants to dredge ToddAC and open up all his body parts and smear them all over God's green earth. She said that she had admitted she "messed up". I reminded her that not only had she never admitted she "messed up" she always justified her affair by saying she thought I was dying and/or problems in the marriage. She reminded me that she had not loved me for more than twenty years and what is a woman supposed to do when a man hits on her if she doesn't love her husband? I reminded her that one day or one minute, she admitted her affair and a few minutes later denied it. Then said OM was impotent. I asked her if she never had an affair, how would she know that OM is impotent?

I never know exactly where bottom is. If we had not hit bottom at that point, I never wanted to find bottom. I told her she had to leave. She refused. I again told her she had to leave. She grabbed her wine and muttered the phrase "This will be the last night I spend on Earth". Hence, once again, she plays the suicide card. BTW, BF who is an RN taught her how to commit suicide.

I walked her down to her car, she got in, started the engine and took off like a bat out of he!!, as is, again, customary for her and her real family.

I have been piecing myself together for seven months or more, facing my mortality and trying to decide what to do about my marriage. As we exited the door, I told her that discussing exposure and the move out were off the table until we discussed her affair with her being honest for longer than five minutes. She again said that she had admitted she was wrong. I reminded her that last night, she claimed OM was impotent. And then she said they were just friends and later seemed to acknowledge that she had an affair. I told her my mind cannot bounce from fantasy to reality like a ping pong ball as it seems to do for her.

Quoth the Raven, kiss my a$$.

She will hit bottom. Don't go along for the ride. You and I have both been piecing ourselves together with not one iota of help from our respective WWs. Stay focused on you. People who commit suicide don't usually advertise it. She wants sympathy.

I am curious. Did she was she was wrong...made a mistake...committed an error...messed up?

When she admits that she betrayed your trust and your marriage - those are better words.

My WW always says she committed an error - but she never elaborates on what the error was. Was it the A? getting caught in the A? what was the error?

Your WW is still not showing any signs of remorse IMHO. Maybe a little guilt but certainly no remorse.

BTW, I don't remember the poem ending that way. I'll google it just to be sure.

oh, my...

This is starting to look good. Very good in fact.

I think you acomplished several things.

You are getting close to make her discuss with openess what happended.

You made it clear that you are not going to keep discussing sensesless for hours.

You were open but not desperate as to try to keep her at all cost.

The two of you spend sometime together, enough to make her remember what it feels like to have her husband by her side.

Hopefully she won't disappear into silence at this point.

If she calls you, you may want to share some more time with her without affair talks, just to show her what she could have <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> if she starts to speak honestly.

Pio, she just bounces all over the map. Literally, she will say, yes I admitted what I did then follow it by saying, but you misunderstood, I never had an affair. Then, OM is impotent. Then, you don't know how ashamed I was for my sons to find out about what I did. Then, the ultimate BLT: you don't know what I said or didn't say because your tumor has eroded your memory. Now this one came directly from OM because he used it on DS and XW. XW passed his wisdom onto me.

I have already read ahead and see that laruousse thinks this is good. larousse, pray tell, how can this be good?

Oh, forgot to mention, at dionner tongiht, WW finally asked if I wanted to get back together. I told her I didn't know. I told her we first had to discuss some truth about her affair and the reasons, the real reasons, and try to understand if she can ever be remorseful. She said that she is remorseful. I asked her to describe what her remorse feels like. She couldn't. She then launched back into the theme of the day: what's wrong with ToddAC.

I uncovered this tonight. She is afraid of being alone. It is apparent that OM has moved on to greener pastures as a philanderer would do. She was just another notch in his belt as described by Pittman. She must feel like a fool, so with OM out of the picture, and OM2 happily married and who knows about OM3? Maybe he notched his belt on moved on as well. Last man standing is ToddAC.

Okay let me try to look at this from a different perspective. You have a significant advantage over me in that you have been separated for a while. I am just a few days but it does give you time to think whereas Plan A does not.

Don't think about whether or not you want to R. Think about what you would desire from being married. What are your needs? Can your WW provide them? I am not talking about your conditions for R. I agree with those. But what if she meets them and you do accept the opportunity to R - will you be better off or worse off? That is where my head is at right now. If the best answer you can give is that your grown sons won't have to make a decision as to who to visit at Christmas, I think that says something.

I would listen to larousse because I have been with you from day one and I am not as optimistic as her. I think it is good that you hear multiple perspectives. In my sitch, my children are much longer and definitely influence my decision process.

What do you want from M? What are your EN's? I am working on my own list but I will read HNHN after Pittman.

WW is drunk, as usual, and keeps calling and repeating about the kids. Let's see, thus far, eleven times tonight. I tell her each time I will hang up if she brings up the kids again. I encourgaged her to discuss our marriage, her affair and/or R. The next drunken words from her mouth are about the kids. I have quit answering the phone

My number one EN is peace and quiet. Just became number one tonight.

What do I want from this marriage? Nothing but a D.

Back on Plan D.

If you really want Plan D then you need to stop any and all communication with WW and hire a lawyer to do it for you.

I think it's good that she's trying to talk to you. it means that she has done some 'thinking' and decided that she wants you after all. You can negotiate with her better in this way than if it were you trying to convince her of stopping her affair.

The affair was a process in which she allowed herself to distance from you and to justify her need for 'love' and 'romance' to have it. The same way the coming back to the marriage is a process.

She's trying to keep face and power and is not yet 'on her knees' but it looks like with some coaching she will get there.

One reason to have outside coaching is to avoid tiring talks. The marriage and the affair is discussed only for an amount if time not all the time.

As tempting as it's to just go back to your cave Todd, I think this is the 'window' of recovery some people mention in this forum.

Todd, I'm sorry you are having such a hard time.

There is no point on discussing with her while she's drunk but whenever she mentions her kids you can repite to her that she can have her place in the family as mother and wife as soon as she recognize her mistakes, the way it affected you all and commits her self to the family and marriage.

larousse,

Do I again need to post the lyrics from "I am a Rock"?

We have talked six more times. She finally said that the affair was a "mistake". I said no, a mistake is when you buy skim milk instead of 2% milk. She said for me to ask any question about her affair that I wanted to. I asked her why she had the affair. She said it was my fault. I asked her why was it my fault. She said you didn't take care of your crops and another man did. I reminded her of my illness. She said that didn't matter that her BF told her that there were things I could have and should have done. I reminded her I did those things. We did a lot of things despite my illness. I have never let her down.

When cornered, switch gears. So she said that the affair was half her fault and half OM's fault. She said I know you blame him but it was just as much me as it was him. Then she switched gears and said the affair was half my fault. Following the math? Then she quickly said that the affair was all my fault. I asked her how. She turned coat and then said it was all OM's fault that he is a "womanizer" and he saw her as vulnerable and took advantage of her. She said if I wanted to know why he did it to ask him. I remminded her of my promise that OM and I will dance at the appropriate time. She said to leave OM alone. I asked what's wrong with dancing. She said I know you and I know what you mean. It went downhill from there.

Does anyone know the quickest way to sober up a Puerto Rican?