First of all you cannot Plan B with him in the house and you cannot Plan A him with him in the love shack.

Saying he could use the spare house as a love shack was certainly beneath your capability. I have to laugh at that one.



Aren't we all.



Then keep him at home and tell him to get someone else for house-sitting so he will know that you are for real and won't vacillate in a week. If that option is gone for him then it is gone for you too. It doesn't matter WHY he stays now as long as he STAYS. He doesn't know what the truth is. Don't pay attention to the words.

You have a WW who is now confused. You have to be absolutely consistent, If you jump from one extreme to the other then so will he. You have to lead the way to R.

I know you are tired, mad, sad, frustrated, confused. Suck it up and save your marriage. Every time you want to LB/DJ him, keep your mouth shut and come vent here. And for God's sake keep your friggin boots off his side of the bed.

You want to get mad/feel sorry for yourself but it won't save your marriage. This is your window of opportunity. Enforce NC by any and all means and keep him at home. Every day of NC the balance tips further back toward you. You are just hitting six months. That is a crucial milestone for those millstone waywards.

Suck it up and get your rear in gear and get rid of the dang love shack. If it is housesitting, I doubt there is a contract. If there is no contract, you can walk out of that deal in a heartbeat sojust do it already and stop thinking about it. That is what I did in your sitch and would do again.

Todd, the fact that you looked at you WW with any sort of love in your heart amazes me & is sadly familiar.

I was so willing/eager to keep my marriage together I was willing to simply start from square one with then h & not confirm his affair. He didn't need to confirm my suspicions, he needed to honestly choose me & work on the marriage too. He couldn't/wouldn't do it.

By the final time he said he wanted to D my recovery time was much faster. More importanly, I didn't see him or the marriage the same way. When I looked at him I saw a weak liar, a man in a MLC unwilling to do the hard work to keep a family together, a selfish man convinced his needs were more important than any of ours. It's been two years & I still see that man.

You're a strong man to keep up this roller coaster ride. I know for me it was exhausting though I stayed on it with such hope.

It's funny, just the other day a friend was here when ex picked up the boys for the weekend. She said ex looks good, don't you think so? I told her I couldn't look at him that way & see just the outside he presents to the world. I know what's inside & that has changed my view of him permanently. I don't believe I could ever look at him, as you did with your WW, & see anything other than a man who betrayed & lied to me & broke up our family

Pio has excellent advice. Separate this mess from what you want from a marriage & decide if your WW is capable of rising to that challange.

.

Schwack!!! The love shack was an arrangement H made when I kicked him out after I found out he was still in contact with OWs at my children's bedside as I lay in the trauma center across town. He coordinated it and only he can uncoordinate it...he hasn't discussed any other details with me re: it or whether he is going to do it or not. He did bring it up at MC session but there was no discussion as we were at the end or our session and the counselor didn't discourage it as he doesn't know the details and it was our first session. So basically the love shack decision is H's...I've voiced my opinion to him already.

You are correct in my eratic feelings and behaviors...my biggest problem is keeping my big mouth shut...I hate it when I think he is lying and feel it is my duty to call him on every lie recognizable...LOL... I seriously only call him on things I know for a fact are lies and I do it as calmly and objectively as possible. He usually denies at first and then comes around gradually and admits it was fabricated and then attempts to give some crazy rationale.

I have been being very calm and am more of a counselor/friend to him than anything else...he just chooses not to confide in me or spend time with me for whatever his reasons are...

Thanks for your input, I do need a 2x4 to keep me focused on what the longterm goal is...his behavior is as eratic as mine and that is what is making me question this decision to continue working on M...

I have plan A'd longer than Harley recommends without any results that is why I was moving to plan B and trying to get him to move out...now as a last ditch effort after me repeatedly asking him to move out he decides on MC...that was a positive for us but I am ambivilent b/c I have no way to check on NC only his word and his actions. Knowing our past I have no reason to trust H.

NC is not a requirement of Plan A. Don't forget that. You can't make your WH do something he doesn't want to do very easily. If you feel yourself losing feelings for WH then go to Plan B but from what you said I don't get the impression you are quite ready for that. Besides - my opinion of what Dr. Harley or any doctor prescribes is a guideline. I found a bag of microwave popcorn the other day that said "best if served by Feb 2001". It did NOT say don't USE it after Feb 2001. Just to be safe I fed it to the DDs and I got a fresh one. They seem okay.

Some can go longer than 6 months and some much shorter. We are people and therefore genetically follow the Boltzmann distribution.

If your behavior is erratic, his will be to. Forget Star Wars - don't trust your feelings. Feelings deceive you equally as well as they did WH when he had his affair.

Before you decide to go to Plan B, I would try 180 or a partial 180.

Why do you feel compelled to prove to your WH that he is lying. He is an adulterer. He is a liar. he knows it - you know it. Who are you trying to convince? So you call him on a lie and he admits it - what have you gained? So he denies it - are you any better off? Work on Plan A and keep your mouth shut.

My opinion about the love shack fallback position is the same as watching a trapeze act at the circus - It is much more dangerous without a net but it is much more enjoyable as well. Hack the love shack. You tell him you would like it gone and you expect him to make it happen. POJA it if you have to but as long as you both know there is an easy out, neither one will be as highly motivated to ride through the rough spots.

The only question you need to answer to decide to continue working on the M is whether you still love your WH or not. Can I make it any simpler for you?

Todd, my sons also asked how could this happen, we werethe perfect family. All that means you & WW hid things well from them & yourselves.

Kiwi is absolutely right when she says your kids want to see you HAPPILY together not together to put on a happy family show.

It goes back to what Pio said. What do you want for your life & future? Can your WW provide that?

Good morning <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Todd, I hope you got a good sleep, what a day and night you had. How do you feel today? I hope your health recovery is not resenting this intense emotional days.

I just want to remaind you that at this moment you have the power in your relationship with your WW. You can decide what do you need from her to even consider getting together again. Don't forget that and don't let yourself be pressed.
Maybe last night talks were a break through for her but she has to keep the openess and remorse, it could be that her drunken state make it easier for her to apologise but hold her accountable on daily life.

If you don't enforce your boundaries right now, many problems will appear again as soon as she feels secure about you. Remember boundaries are not for her but for you, boundaries are not what she shouldn't do but what you find unacceptable in your relationship, it's up to her to respet or not your boundaries.

Between the things you may find unacceptable are her friends, the ones that helped and hide the affair, her dringking scapedes, no friendship with male coleges...

Maybe you can appease your sons fears by telling them that you plan to work on the marriage but that you have to do it at your own pace and time.

Don't give up your power right now, take your time.

I don't know what Pittman offers for the after affair period, if he doesn't offer anything I would suggest you to use SAA plan, it has very useful recomendation to restablish a 'healthy' marital convivence and it mentions the tools needed to create an affair proof marriage.

Take your time, breath, rest, sleep.

2Much...

Hi, I agree with Pio's suggestions.
I would only add that althought Plan A doesn't requiere NC, it's paramount that you expose during this time and keep reinforcing at appropiate times that NC is necesary to work on the marriage.
When the WS says he's confused, usually it means he wants to cake eat.
Don't question him about his love for you or what he wants from you, you put yourself in a weak position.

Edited to add:
I agree with Pio's advice, just don't feed your kids 2001 Popcorn. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

[quote]My opinion about the love shack fallback position is the same as watching a trapeze act at the circus - It is much more dangerous without a net but it is much more enjoyable as well. Hack the love shack. You tell him you would like it gone and you expect him to make it happen. POJA it if you have to but as long as you both know there is an easy out, neither one will be as highly motivated to ride through the rough spots.[quote]

Exactly my opinion...

No, guess you can't make it any simpler.

Todd, my then 10 yo son asked me if I thought his father "had gf" before we told them we were going to D. He did the math & asked this on his very own. Killed me to hear this come out of his innocent mouth. You know what though, it wasn't my behavior that made this question possible.

Because this was causing stress in my son I shared the conversation with ex. He blew up accussing me of putting words in son's mouth & if I wanted make him look bad he could play that game too. Foggy stupidity, but he believes who knows what & feels justified.

My point being: I can't protect my boys from their own thoughts. What has happened & what their father does (he moved in with gf two weeks after D was final) are acts that will speak to the boys. They will put together what they will. I tell them I'm open to discussing whatever they want.

Damage has been done in your case & mine, there's no taking that back. All we can do is assure our kids we love them & always will.

There's no way to go back & recreate what they percieved to be.

Try German mustard my friend. Heinz is the best!

ToddAC,

If people tell me (even our MC said this) that you should never try to keep a marriage together just for the kids, what are you on about? My DDs are 5 and 7.

You can't be held accountable for fixing something you didn't break. If your WW can make you happy then by all means return to her but if she will bring you nothing but misery, every day with her will be a living inferno.

Do you just feel a need to punish yourself for something?

You went from rabid ramblings of divorce and revenge to happily ever after in the space of a few hours. Hardly a well thought out decision and certainly no plan of how to attain it.

The question is simple - will you be happier with WW or without her?

I pretty much agree with Pio.

2Much - the love shack goes. Gotta love a WS parachute clause dont you.

I love this thread...it is erratic, spontaneous and tangential as it gets...one minute the discussion is focused on train speeds and flight engineering with absolutely no mention of infidelity for days...swings to lyrics, poems and condiments and then runs rampant with infidelity chaos!!!! Much like our daily lives I guess:)

Thanks for all the input...

Todd, as passionate as you are about your DS feelings, you can't protect him forever...he needs to see things for what they are and figure out who is responsible for the destruction...it is a valiant thought but I must agree with Pio and co.

You should be all about Todd right now...your health, happiness etc. If she fits into the formula great...if not it is her loss...not saying not to make any effort, just saying to make it b/c you want to do it. This is what I am trying to stress to H...I will be fine with or without him...he needs to decide if he can be happy with the role of husband and father in our family...if not then it is his choice to change to make the formula work or move on to a new equation.

DS3 broke me. I know no other way to express it. My sons mean more to me than anything in the world. I also do not believe that a couple should stay together for the sake of the kids. They need to see good and loving role models in marriage.


As you know, my view is of love as action. Can I express love to my WW? Can I show and demonstrate love for her? Undoubtedly. Will I ever be in love with her again? No way. I love her but I am not in love with her. There were too many bridges burned and too much hurt piled upon hurt to allow me to fall in love with her again. Can I be happy? Sure. Can I be the happiest that I can be, say if I make a trip to Russia? Not on your life.


No and I am puzzled why you would ask this question.


Did you ever seen the movie "Cool Hand Luke"? Remember one of the lines: you broke me boss? I was broke last night. No, hardly a well-thought out plan. Recall my answer to BK? I ain't got no stinkin' plan.


I have no idea. Trying to answer this for myself is like sitting on a cloud. My friend, I have lost my bearings.

WW called today to once again say she is sorry for "everything". I think her affair is tucked in there somewhere. I forgot to mention that when she came by yesterday, she wore turtle earrings. Remember my post about OM bringing her a turtle home from work one day?

And oh yeah, she asked about my health. She asked was my heart okay. For the record, my hormones had been scrambled to the point that I developed heart palpitations. She apparently couldn't bring herself to ask me about my brain. Maybe they will happen in a few weeks if BF okays it.

To quote your movie "what we have here is a failure to communicate".

Can you not see the dichotomy of what you have just written?

I understand you have lost your bearings. That is why NC is so important to you.

How life with the Desitin dad?

Vaguely incoherent, yes.

Dichotomy, no.

Another famous line from the movie is: I can eat fifty boiled eggs.

DDs are still jet-lagged. DD1 woke me up at 2:00 AM to tell me that DD2 could not sleep. We all got in bed and watched ET. They were afraid to watch it alone. It is now 4:30 AM and I have them down to try to get a nap before school.

1st day of school went very well. No crises. WW called yesterday afternoon. I didn't speak to her and gave the phone directly to DD1. DD1 was watching TV and the connection was bad so I guess WW told her she would try again today. DD1 said "okay" and hung up. About that time the neighbor children knocked on the door and asked DD1 out to play so she raced out. DD2 was sound asleep on the couch (5:00 PM) so stayed in. It will be about a week before we are over the jet lag.

I am trying to reinvent my schedule. I no longer have any time in the AM to work out so I am experimenting with a new schedule. Rash is gone BTW.

Sounds like you are handling the single parent thing well...

You should feel a sense of accomplishment and pride so far to handle everything with the vacation, travel and now school...I know the stress of juggling with getting kids to school, lunches, sports schedules etc...I've been on my own with everything for past year.

The girls will do well especially now that school is started and they will be busy with work, friends etc...most likely they will mention the missing mom at bedtime or in the evening since they will be tired and winding down...my girls meltdown when they are tired and the tiniest issues become life/death...it's all good by morning though.

I am sure it will be easier for you now too since you will be too busy juggling girls and work...I forget you have your nanny though, very nice to be able to have peace of mind and know everything is being taken care of while you are at work...can you try running at lunch time or early before the girls get up? I myself like to run late at night...I am more energetic and have much more pent up negativity by the end of the day that drives me further and harder than a morning workout.

You may need to kick me in the seat...I think I need a muzzle or maybe a good sew job on my mouth...I had kids out with me all day...came home at 5pm...H was home from work...he was watching TV...I went out and played with kids for 1.5 hr and when came in to cook dinner ...you guessed it, H in same spot...we all ate together and then he changed clothes to go out and play with kids...he was out with them a total of 5 minutes and returned complaining he was hot...it was the coolest day at 68 degrees...I was playing with DD2 at the time and DD1 and DS were outside. When H returned in I made a statement about "was that the extent of your kid time"...he joked about me bust'n his stuff...he annouces that he is going to go get the car washed...I ask if he is taking the kids...he gives a smart remark and leaves...me, kids and all the neighbors are in my yard playing when he drives up, pulls into the driveway and then pulls back out and leaves...texts me 5 minutes later saying he is on his way to a friends house...he then calls and tries to talk to me as if we have so much to talk about...he can't carry a conversation on lately unless it revolves around himself...

My dog then escapes...I look for the car keys to the vehicle he usually drives and has been off limits to me for past 9 months...extra set of keys disappeared a long time ago and he would get angry if I even looked in the windows of this vehicle...this is where he would hide all of his other clothes etc...he kept an entire wardrobe and grooming line in this vehicle for his 18 hour days away from home of which he only worked 8 hours/days...

So, I go to look for the keys...nowhere to be found...I have to physically track down the dog with my gimp leg in the pitch dark...I text to ask where the keys are...no response, my son texts to ask him to spend more time with him, no response...2 hours go by...no call, text, anything. I watch disney with the kids and give them all pedicures, they are happy and we have fun. I finally get a text telling me the keys are somewhere where they aren't, then a text to my son saying he plans on spending more time with everyone...then a phone call with H trying to tell me where he is and why it'll be a while...I cut him off and tell him I don't care where he is or when he gets back and that he just needs to do his explaining to his children and I promptly hang up. I may have hit the wall...

No kicks overall but behavior is hard to change overnight. I think this is something you should talk about and POJA rather than fight about. You just need to get away from this stormtrooper attitude you have.

Some options would be to wash the car together at home as a family event. I think it will take time to get him connected to the kids but it can happen. It probably won't happen with your approach.

Our MC suggested a family night. Dedicate one night a week for the family. Same night every week. Each week a different member of the family gets to pick an activity and you cycle that way. It was a good idea.

I am enjoying the single-parenting. I knew it would be difficult at first but I wanted the challenge. The housemaid is critical for getting them dressed to go to school and making sure they get lunch but, other than that, the kids are all mine. I am not going to use her as a babysitter. I have given up golf, for example, unless I take the girls with me and I can't this month due to the heat.

As far as your sitch goes, I can see it several ways. You spend all your time with the kids and H doesn't. You want some time for just you. Fair enough. POJA your time out.

H spend no time with the kids so he is missing them and you think that is bad for them. A little less selfish on your part. I don't know.

I would recommend that you start with an activity that your H would take some personal interest in and that the kids would enjoy and make an event out of it. I admit I cannot stand to sit and play Bratz with the DDs while gemela can. Make it bike riding, bowling, tennis, gardening, etc. and I can get into it. I can play Uno with the DDs but not Scrabble because DD2 can't spell anything yet. I would play Scrabble with DD1 as educational benefit but I cannot exclude DD2 so it is moot. I can take the girls swimming because I enjoy that too. I guess I would just try to think of something for the kids that H will not feel is destroying his free time. If you start there, I think you will gradually build more activities because H will progressively start taking more interest in what is important to the kids. JMO.

My H would agree with your comment about "stormtrooper".

I did ask if we could all wash car together...ignored...I tossed out bunches of suggestions of things to do as a couple at home or away from and as a family...he acknowledged that I threw them out there but hasn't done anything with the ideas.

It just kills me that he is choosing not to spend time with his kids or myself and would rather spend time with essentially total strangers...I feel like telling him to move in with them and see how supportive and caring they are ...will they do his laundry, pay the bills, cook and shop for him...take care of all the real business????

He is living in a fantasy land and will use any excuse to avoid responsibility as a parent or husband at this point. I can survive without the attention but my children are feeling rejected...DD1 said she was sad that dad chose to spend his free time with his friends rather than be with her...I told her to tell him how she felt but she is afraid b/c he snaps at her and says things like, "did your mother tell you to say that" when she went out with him for her birthday to shop he asked if she was going to be her mother's spy and tell who dad talked to and how much he used his phone...to me that is just plain wrong...the issues are between us and shouldn't be pulling the kids into it...DD1 is not stupid and tells me things that bother her to include that the only 2 times her dad spent any time with her in past 6 months he was on the phone the entire time...she said her teammates ask why her dad is always on the phone when he took her to practices in the spring...she is sensitive and smart and figures things out for herself...she actually told me I need to put a spycam on him!

Ok, I am venting to try and get rid of my aggression in case he decides to roll in tonight...yep there have been a few nights that he doesn't come home and then lots that he rolls in at 0200-0300 without any comment about his whereabouts. I quit asking questions a while ago since I don't believe anything anyway.