FC, what was the name of your poodle?

I dunno cynical...there is a part of me that has whithered and broken to bits and was blown away in the tsunami...I survived, but that part of me didn't....it was the part of me that could look at couples and say, "oh, aren't they sweet..." That part's been replaced with a new part that squeaks, "I wonder if he cheated on her..." BLAH! I'm still fun loving...but...I dunno...not really jaded...more abalone...instead of being all one happy color, my colors are swirled with happy, sad (dunno if it'll ever go away), learned, worldly, and more than a little questioning of people and their drives and motives.

I'm like Elizabeth in The Paper Bag Princess.

From Amazon's review on the book:



MY happily ever after isn't defined by Prince Not So Charming anymore. Yeah. What I went through changed me...it challenged my thinking and my views and my values and WHAT I value...so I define me...no one else will ever have that power.

As for your 180 book...I know Faithy has mentioned one before. I'll email her to pop in here for you.

- Kimmy

Well Trix, here I am again on the horns of a dilemma. My poodle's name was A. J. She was black and it stood for Aunt Jemima. So now, I will have the reputation of also being a racist. She was always called AJ never her real name. She was a magnificent pet. She had the most wonderful personality. So calm and so faithful, extremely bright and beautiful. Not a show dog by any stretch of the imagination but a wonderful companion. fc

LOL, Nams, I knew BigK didn't get it. He's Australian you know.

The only people who believe in the term "soulmate" are high school sweethearts and adulterers. The rest of us recognize it for what it is. For high school kids, who cares? It is pretty harmless. The adulterer is a different story. They will destroy everything they touch to worship at its feet. Trying to dissuade the wayward is quite difficult.

I have posted a couple of times how fate brought WW and pool boy together so I won't repeat. It is just such [email]bullcr@p.[/email] So when I use the term "soulmate", please feel free to do a find and replace with "egotistical, self-serving, auto-deluded, reprobate infidel"(1). It is just easier to type soulmate. Hope you don't mind the shortcut. I don't type all that well.

(1) let's just assume that I have no need to post about high school kids.

For those that are interested in Michelle Weiner Davis's divorce busting 180 degree list, here it is:

1. Do not pursue, reason, chase, beg, plead or
implore.
2. No frequent phone calls.
3. Do not point out good points in marriage.
4. Do not follow her around the house.
5. Do not encourage talk about the future.
6. Do not ask for help from family members.
7. Do not ask for reassurances.
8. Do not buy gifts.
9. Do not schedule dates together.
10. Do not spy on spouse.
11. Do not say "I Love You".
12. Act as if you are moving on with your life.
13. Be cheerful, strong, outgoing and attractive.
14. Don't sit around waiting on your spouse - get busy, do things, go to church, go out with friends, etc.
15. When home with your spouse, (if you usually start the conversation) be scarce or short on words.
16. If you are in the habit of asking your spouse her whereabouts, ASK NOTHING.
17. You need to make your partner think that you have had an awakening and, as far as you are concerned, you are going to move on with your life, with or without your spouse.
18. Do not be nasty, angry or even cold - just pull back and wait to see if spouse notices and, more important, realize what she will be missing
19. No matter what you are feeling TODAY, only show your spouse happiness and contentment. Show her someone she would want to be around.
20. All questions about marriage should be put on
hold, until your spouse wants to talk about it (which may be a while).
21. Never lose your cool.
22. Don't be overly enthusiiastic.
23. Do not argue about how she feels (it only makes their feelings stronger).
24. Be patient
25. Listen carefully to what your spouse is really saying to you.
26. Learn to back off, shut up and walk away when you want to speak out.
27. Take care of yourself (exercise, sleep, laugh & focus on all the other parts of your life that are not in turmoil).
28. Be strong and confident and learn to speak softly.
29. Know that if you can do 180, your smallest
CONSISTENT actions will be noticed much more than any words you can say or write.
30. Do not be openly desperate or needy even when you are hurting more than ever and are desperate and needy.
31. Do not focus on yourself when communicating with your spouse.
32. Do not believe any of what you hear and less than 50% of what you see. Your spouse will speak in absolute negatives because she is hurting and scared.
33. Do not give up no matter how dark it is or how bad you feel.
34. Do not backslide from your hardearned changes.

My H's OW "believes in soulmates" to the point that when she met someone else she said she couldn't believe she had TWO SOULMATES bwwwwwwwwaaaahhhhhhhhh!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

Who wears pink shorts...nananananana...Pio wears pink shorts...na na na na na na

Thanks to Nams or Larousee I have the Nair advertising song stuck in my head along with the vision of Pio in pink

Pio, I think you are doing a fantastic job of preparing without going over the top...I know you are practicing the prepare for the worst hope for the best theory. I also know you realize hope is not a plan and you are technically prepared to execute the plan if G chooses not to R the M

I am with you at the zero expectation marker...if I don't think of my kids I am almost certain which path I would be running down right now...I am so frustrated b/c as much of a liar as my H is he does not lie about how he feels about me...there are no declarations of love or anything related to how he feels about me...all of our dealings now revolve our children, finances and the home...

I have to agree when you told FC that you couldn't live in a marriage based on illusion...I want WH to be honest with himself and me...if he has no feelings for me and this is all about trying to stay together to provide 2 parents then I want out...I refuse to exist anymore...I want to live. At least if he were honest with me I could quit worrying about him and what he thought, felt etc about me...I thought I had reached that point but I am not quite there yet. Where are you with all of this or have you not given much thought to it yet?

FC,
I would like to know what you think your husband would do if you told him the truth? I actually thought my WH would become suicidal at one point if I held him to boundaries based on past history and childhood abuse/trauma...I got to the point where I realized that my actions are not responsible for his actions. Regardless of how poorly or wonderfully we are treated we all have free will and make choices continuously...I cannot be responsible for what WH does...I cannot control his behavior...I cannot feel guilty for the consequences he is now suffering...I can support him through the process if he allows it...that would be his choice. So far my WH chooses to keep all emotional and personal issues to himself or perhaps confide in others...we have absolutely no emotional bond left aside from our children so what do I have to loose. If you had an EA with OM have you begun to re-establish some type of emotional relationship with your H? My WH tells me he is too ashamed of his actions to confide and open up to me. I told him that he wasn't ashamed to cheat on me and lie to me why would he be ashamed to admit it...it is not like I don't already know most of it...just curious on your perspective

FF: thanks for posting the plan.
I guess I will give it a try since I've been doing most of the points, but the opposite of. I've been trying to make my FWH feel protected but maybe I am not giving space to let him make me feel safe also.

Dealan-de: I was reading your post. Congratulations. you are a wonderful person. I wish you the best with your H and DDs.

[color:"green"] Pio says: [/color]


The reason I reacted to FC's story post the way I did, was because I was afraid this was going to happend: Pio would asociate FC and her perspective to G. and her 'evolution' or lack of it from a WW to a XWW.

FC, you have rationalized your situation and your actions and you think you have 'recovered'. The risk of posting rationalizations instead of useful, healthy concepts and guidelines is that it creates confusion.

You say:


FC, taking your opinion just as your opinion, not even thinking that you were involved in an affair, your opinion is what people usually say, but Dr. Harley says that usually trust is recovered after two years of a Policy of Radical Honesty. He also says that no one should have or give blind trust. We all should be accountable of our actions in front of the spouse.

Then FC says:


Again FC are just opinions, meanwhile Dr. Harley said yesterday on his radio program that trust is not necesary to recover a marriage but that honesty is necesary.

Finally FC says:


Again another personal opinion of FC. Dr. Harley says that to survive an affair a marriage not only has to recover but to be much better than it was before and he has proved again and again that it's doable. Dr Harly promotes the idea that not only is posible to have a marriage with constant romantic love but that romantic love should be an important part of a marriage. Romantic love in a marriage will protect both spouses from an affair.

FC, of course you have a right to your personal opinions but the danger of these opinions comming from you is exactly the danger of giving an uninformed opinion and besides that reinforce your rationalizations with your personal choices.

[color:"green"] Pio,
I could forgive you the pink shorts if you would stick to MB guidelines to recover your marriage. You know that I differ from your opinions about G inner or secret feelings or intentions. I just ask you not to build up resentment or 'fed up' feelings based on FC story. Please.
[/color]

2much, I am concerned that if I told my H of my EA that he would be obviously very upset. But more than that, he walks a fine line of coexisting fairly well with the depression that has now plagued him for 14 years. He refuses to consider taking AD's due to the profession that he is in. He is and always has been the type of person who thought about doing something for months and even years and then all of a sudden does it and it seems like he hasn't considered whatever it is, but in truth he's been ruminating on it for a long time before taking action without saying a word about it. My concern is that I wouldn't know how to prevent something like that from happening. On a daily basis he and I do pretty well. We have known each other for so long that we usually know what is going on in each other's head. But there are those isolated times when I don't have a clue what is up with him. If I ask or push it, he clams up. I on the other hand am usually pretty transparent and usually spill my guts if there is a problem or something that is bothering me.

On a scale of 1 to 10 I suppose I could say our life and marriage compared to most other middle class Americans is probably about an 8. I don't mean material things either. I mean family ties, things in common, communication, common interests etc. So even with the problems that I have personally had, I cannot complain a whole lot about my H or my family life. I am quite willing to take an 8 out of 10 knowing full well that it's so much better than most have. I do not want to upset the applecart for any reason. My children love their father, I love him, he's a rock for the most part in our lives and we in his. To me it's not worth the chance I'd be taking for a better marriage. I want him around for as long as possible and as healthy as possible. I do want him to have as happy a life as is possible given his previous troubles professionally. There may come a day when he retires that he will be willing to take AD's and get professional help for his depression. If that day comes, there will be a hue and cry from my family of sheer joy as none of us like seeing him upset, negative and depressed most of the time. And you are correct, it is a choice that he is making.

My EA with the OM was not so great that I lost a great deal of emotional connection with my H. OTOH, my emotional connection to my H isn't so great that I had a whole lot to lose either. However, as in all A's, yes there was some difference and that difference is melting away as we plod on.

Here's my fundamental problem with this whole conundrum. You cannot make someone be 100% truthful. You can never know with certainty if they are being 100% truthful. It's the ideal and all of us want it, but to really achieve it I believe is impossible. And to be able to achieve it after one partner has had an A I believe even more unrealistic. You have to want to trust your mate, you have to want to believe in them and if you don't there's precious little a FWW can do about it. Once the toothpaste is out of the tube, it cannot be put back in.

My H knows full well that I am not perfect, I have many flaws. He doesn't happen to know of this one, but based on my history I think he would be stunned over this. I am not sure how he would react and I don't want to precipitate anything untoward for him. I certainly do not wish to cause him any more hurt than he's already had to endure, and I don't want my kids hurt either by him taking his life. I do not protect him for the sake of my "a@@" I am not all that worried about my [email]a@@.[/email] I am worried about my H and my family. I have always been the strong one in the family when the chips were really down and basically I have just broken down under trying to carry the weight of both of us on my back. It's difficult for me to continue on with no relief in sight. Maybe a better way to put is is I have just gotten worn down from living with someone who is chronically depressed.

I hope I have addressed your questions appropriately. If not, fire away again. fc

I appreciate you input FC.

I feel differently, in fact my H is out looking for apartments as I write b/c I won't back down on the honesty issue. I pretty much laid it out that I wasn't willing to stay in an illusion anymore even for the sake of the kids. I told H he needed to be honest with himself about our M and decide whether he was willing to be honest...he turned it around on me and said it wouldn't matter b/c he felt I wouldn't be able to handle life with him after all of these damages...another example of WS making choices for the BS. I will not argue, beg or plead for WH to stay home...he has a batchelor agenda and is not willing to make the effort to R...his actions have spoken for him and he hasn't even bothered to try and explain himself outside of saying it is easier to avoid everything and go sow his wild oats...yep. Nice huh?

Anyway, TMI.
Thanks for the input

Larousse, I had not read your post before I posted the one above. I think Pio is smart enough to judge Gamela's behavior on it's own merits. I don't speak for all WW. We are all different. To try to compare Gamela to me is to try to compare apples and oranges. She and I have nothing in common except we cheated on our H's. There is so much more to the complete picture than that.

He is one very smart man and I don't think he will be unfair to Gamela either. I think ( again an opinion and that's all we ever write, there are no footnotes or facts on any of these posts) he will try as hard as he can to be objective in assessing her willingness to reconcile. Now just because he is human, he may have a little more difficulty seeing his own motivations. We all have a hard time looking at our own motivations as objectively as others can. It's the emotional spin that we have a hard time taking off and looking through. I think that is why the feed back here is so important.

I thought that when anyone posted here that we all automatically knew it was an opinion. I was not aware that there are immutable truths in relationships. I try to take into account the diversity and all I can speak to is my own personal experience.


Larousse, do you not realize that all of Dr. Harley's tenets are also opinions formed from his experiences also? I have no quarrel with the fact that he has a huge amount of experience with this and has formulated a pretty successful plan. But as in all "soft-sciences" it's very difficult to quantify the human qualities that affect these outcomes.

One last point, I do not think I am recovered, I am in the process and I don't expect it to ever end. I think it will be with me for the rest of my life.

fc

FC, did you not hear Pio say that Todd is taking your "opinions" very hard? Did you also not see Todd say that this is the only place on MB he posts?

There is a distinct possibility that Todd will not continue posting here. I would be very, very, very sorry to see that.

fc, you keep talking about "your marriage", your wants within the marriage for yourself & your H. This is his marriage too. Doesn't he deserve a say?

It also says volumes that you continue to put your need to talk about "my" OM and your continued dishonesty above the needs of a very nice man (Todd).

No it's not a nice way to do you. And I understand why you want that truth and honesty.

My strategy is to no longer be in a position to have to be untruthful to my H. There is nothing going on and I am actively working on my own problems trying to solve them so they will not impact our lives again. Since he doesn't know, he feels no pain from what I did. He surely feels pain from the discourse that is going on when I try to work on myself.This has been a voyage of self-discovery for me and I am trying to solve my own personal problems in the hope that they will not create any other problems for our marriage. The difference is, I want this to work, without further harming him and your H doesn't seem to want to work on your problems. And this is all my opinion, none of it's cast in stone, it's just my take. Doesn't make it gospel.

Kiwi, I was just responding to things which had been addressed to me. I don't want to hurt Todd and I don't need this board nearly as much as he does.

I'll quit. It's that simple.

But no one needs to continue to ask me questions if they don't want me to answer.

Kiwi, I didn't see Pio's reference to Todd having difficulty with FC's opinions. I did see that he only posts here.

Given that fact FC perhaps lurking would be the better choice for you. You have said you intended no harm & it appears you have caused harm.

Please consider this information.

nams, he's very seriously considering not posting any more.

This has upset him very badly.