Pio, 17 years in Asia has screwed any fashion sense I had.

As for reconnecting, well I haven't, but I quite like having him here so I can keep an eye on him. I do think we will get there in our own muddled non-MB way, when he eventually gets off his [censored] and gets tested for STDs. It's not ideal, but I'm delighted to have my family intact for Xmas. Many many people have a worse deal than me.

However, my mood on this whole recovery issue changes according to my hormones, so the story might be different next week. Wish I could be more help. TT

I go hot and cold myself so you are not alone. Maybe I have hormones too. I don't consider myself anywhere near recovery yet. So far I just have all the holes in the dyke plugged but not much more.

Hormones reminded me of something.

Do you know the difference between a wife, a mistress and a prostitute? A prostitute says "I hope it was good for you", a mistress says "I hope it was as good for you as it was for me", and a wife says "Blue. I think we'll paint the ceiling blue".

I still get caught up in remorse. How could I want to be married to someone who has done this much damage to her husband and her children and isn't the least bit sorry for it? If she were the slightest bit sorry for what she has done, it would be a whole lot easier to want to be involved with her again. As it is at the moment, WW is not all that attractive an option. But we are trying. Even so, it is hard to reconnect.

OK, forget the chestnuts. Pio raises some sickeningly good points...for the...careful... among us.

Of course there is concern about the state of education in the U.S., Todd, I just thought you might want to relax a bit.

As for Laura's outfit. It looked too much like a business suit with less severe fabric than it did a holiday outfit. I do think she did the gracious thing by changing. The money spent? Ridiculous.

I think Laura's dress looked more like drapes than a dress.

None of them got a good deal.

Opinions please...

Short story is WH moved at my request 7 week ago. Calls kids twice/day, tries to have light superficial conversation with me. I have pretty much gone the gammit from being nice and cordial to telling him that I wanted nothing to do with him and did not want him back (that was about 1 wk ago). WH avoids any talk about us or future but is planning to move to a more permanant residence after the Holidays...has taken most of his belongings and will be taking some furniture with the next move.

Due to Holidays I agreed to some "family" activities to prevent ruining kids Christmas. WH has visited several times and requests I remain with he and kids. It is killing me and confusing the kids. Recently he started making comments about SF and dropped by to try and get some...I have consistently refused and told him it is a package deal with conditions and have sent him on his way. I told him I was glad that I had placed conditions and that it was pretty apparent his only interest was in the SF. He said not to think like that but that he didn't want to do anything until he was 100% doubt-free.

Very emotional night last night with WH crying when he departed. We spent the evening doing family Christmas tradition and DS was sad when time for WH to go home. I remained calm and unemotional and provided no input or comments to DS or WH display of emotion. He left and then came back 5 minutes after leaving to get one of kids to stay at his place.

I can't take it and don't want kids to get false sense of hope so since WH refused to engage in discussion or to set aside time to plan/strategize how to handle things I TM'd him that immediately post Holiday I will not participate in "family" activities and that we need to make a plan to provide kids stability, consistency in visits with a routine. I will institute a serious plan B.

He called asking if we were regressing as "friends" again. I told him we need to discuss without kids around. He said if we were ever going to get back together that he needed to spend time with me around and that if I wasn't going to be around now we should just forget trying. I asked when he ever mentioned us getting back together as an option etc. He ends conversation and says he'll talk to me later.

I emailed and explained he was not my friend and I would only consider rebuilding a friendship with him through marriage. I said I recognized the mutual attraction and desire for SF but that I wanted the whole package and would settle for nothing less. I told him his was no longer part of my family as long as we lived apart and that as long as we were separated I only wanted to exchange info by text or email.

Thoughts, comments. A few weeks back I told him I would handle the legal stuff after the Holidays...selective amnesia? He recently commented it was a shame we couldn't get along since everything else seemed so perfect...I about fell over but didn't comment. In the email I however stated I thought it was interesting that his perception of why we were separated was b/c we couldn't get along. Couldn't have anything to do with the year of infidelity...

My first thought is that you need to get a plan and stay with the plan. You have confused everyone including yourself. Most importantly, you are confusing the kids which is a very unfair.

WH says he wants what he wants until he is absolutely sure - about what? I don't get that part. He sounds like stph20's WH and all he wants is to cake-eat.

But let's forget about SF for the moment. The part that makes me the maddest is that he says he wants to be friends. If your best friend (or any friend) betrayed you, stabbed you in the back, remained unrepentant for doing it, etc. would they still be your friend? The word coming out of his mouth would offend me.

You are trying to be a family to not ruin the kids holidays but you are ruining them anyway. You are definitely giving them false hopes. If it were me, I would stop the "family" activities immediately. Let WH have his time and you have your time. Try to begin to develop boundaries for the kids and become consistent. Kids need rules.

People always told me that I had to judge WW by her actions and she judged me by mine. You are all over the map. If you had any remote hope of R, how are you helping WH toward that goal by your behavior? Also stop trying to help WH "see the light" and "understand" his behavior. Restrict yourself to telling him how hurt you are and how you feel about what has happened.

I know this is a very hard time for all of you. Unfortunately it is up to you to be the strong one for your family and your kids. I can't see how pretending to be a family for a month is good for anyone.

Or maybe she just didn't want to confuse George - or else have him say "gee Honey, that woman looks so much better in that dress than you do". You might tend to feel sorry for the other three women but I don't. Now the entire world knows how much they spent on those dresses and they didn't have to drop a single hint. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Exactly...I told him this almost verbatim in past conversation.




You are right...that is why I left town for Thanksgiving to make it easier on me so that I would not cave in and agree to "family" stuff.



This is what I requested when he moved out but DD1 refused to do things unless I was a part of them...I should have acted like a parent and allowed her the choice of doing the activity with WH in my absence and once she missed out a few times maybe she would start doing things with him without me. He is just as bad though and I buckled and gave in out of lack of energy and sac. The mail message basically stated what you said above, that I wanted to establish some routine of time-share and consistent behavior on how they communicated, how they were picked up/dropped off etc so it would be easier for all of us.




Yes I am and it is a horrific feeling. I need to regain control and keep moving in the plan D direction because logically based on past history in the long run it will be the best for all of us...a little piece of me still feels like somewhere in WH my H will appear and fight to stay...his behavior and conflicting comments are yet evidence to the contrary. Just hit me with a 2x4 now and get it over with...




It isn't and that is what I was explaining to WH via email. No surprise I received a one liner saying he will do what he needs to for the kids and FU to me. Good thing I expected nothing less.



More cake-eating...even when living separate...I will never look at cake the same way again

I think I am in the depression phase of this adventure and need a swift kick to move along...if only I could speed up Father Time...

Thanks for the input

2much,

I am depressed enough right now and I don't have nearly your problems. It is hard to recognize you are in depression. Usually you don't do it until it is too late.

Yes you are the parent. Don't forget that and don't be afraid to tell DD1 that if need be. Find something to focus on to help get you through the holidays. I'm so sorry for you. Lace those boots up tight, put on the grease paint and think mean. You are going to get through this.

Your WH will probably make you out to be the bad guy with the kids. But you are the only adult of this family and you need to act like it. It's not a popularity contest.

Don't take a negative view of all cake. You might develop a taste for beef cake in the future, for example. It's not fattening either!

{{{2much}}}

Pio has done a great job of articulating your situation.

This is all manipulation on your WH's part. He knows where your soft spots are, your children, & he's using them to have things his way.

This really is no different than he has been doing except he's including you out of guilt. He wants to appear to the kids as an involved, caring father & family man. He's not that even if he wants to pretend to himself he is.

Your daughter is smart & she knows your soft spots too. She, understandably, wants her family together. She's doing her bit to make that happen, in her not fully understanding of the situation kid way.

Don't let your WWH manipulate you. Sounds like you have a plan in place, you just need to stick with it.

As Pio has pointed out, making nice for the holiday season, pretending all's happy & well in the family, will only cause confusion for your kids. You can't wish this man to man up & do the right thing. You've tried that & he's not bucked up.

One thing I may not be clear on is your idea of co-parenting. You have referred to your desire to co-parent in a negative way. Is your WWH's idea of co-parenting in a cooperative way to do things as a "family"? If so I understand your resistance.

When ex & I were in the process of discussing how to tell our boys we were separating, yes, we did say that first though ex had no intention of ever coming back. This was something else that made it harder on the boys, the false hope that offered. We talked with my IC about what would be the best possible situation for our boys in the future. He said cooperation at the least, but if we could manage it, bring together the two halves of the family for special events. Doing this without forcing it &only if we could truly be happy to spend these special times together would show the kids the love & devotion we have to them.

ex was all for it & I knew I would do whatever I could for my boys to feel secure with a D. VERY hard to do. Last Christmas I invited ex to come open gifts with the boys & stay for dinner if he wanted. I did not invite gf, just couldn't choke that down. Even though they won't admit to seeing each other during our marriage, I believe they were & don't feel she has a place in my home. So, there goes the concept of sharing special events with both halves of the family.

I do, however, try to be supportive of the relationship gf has with my boys. After all, the reality is gf lives with their father. All I can ask is that she be nice to my boys.
She is & her family has included them fully into their lives.

I guess the bottom line for me is if they get more love in their lives rather than animosity & anger they will be better off.

Wow, did I get off subject! Sorry.

Nams - I would like to say thank you for that post. I have been feeling a little funny about the Holidays and spending them together for our DD, but it is for her, so you have made me feel better about my decision to host Christmas..

Thanks!

Nams, doing "family" things seems to be his answer to co-parenting. He refuses to discuss how to do this despite several requests on my part over the past 7 weeks. I gave explicit instruction on his departure that I only wanted to communicate via text, email to coordinate his time with kids. He just changed jobs 1 month ago so his schedule is "erratic and long hours". He was staying at an extended stay for 2 wk, then I have no idea for 2 weeks and now is at one of OW's family's condos until getting more permanent residence (apt) next month. I want set times for him to visit kids with him either coming here and me leaving during visit or him taking kids to his place. He has verbalized that once he moves he wants kids to spend night 1 night each w/e. He has made comments that he needs 3 BR apt so the kids can have a room etc. Aside from fleeting comments to that effect there has been no discussion, plan, strategy. My agreeing to have holiday time for all of us was basically to show kids we both still loved them and could be together for important events without fighting etc. WH attempts at SF and pushing buttons made this impossible for me and when I saw how disappointed DS was after our Christmas tradition it killed me and made me realize that the sooner I institute separate lives the easier it will be for all of us.

At least you and ex sat your kids down and explained what was happening and what to expect. This is all I asked of WH and he refuses to even discuss with me so that we can present plan to kids...that is obviously contributing to kids confusion. I try to reinforce what I can and provide stability, routine and fun at home to create a safe place for them...it is extremely draining and emotional for me at this point but I am holding together for kids. I hate this.

Thank you for your input and advice.

It looks like you will have to take the lead here 2much.

You need to know what direction you want your future to take & act accordingly, plan accordingly. This is not to say you know you're filing for D, just that for now you are in plan B with contact only about your kids. Your WWH is trying to work around your boundaries. Nothing new there except now it's the holiday season & your inclination is to make nice for everybody. WWH does not need to be included in this.

You sound like an organized person who wants your WWH to be the same. It looks like he's not capable of that so you need to spell it out, make the plans & arrangements & stick with that.

One of the hard parts is spelling these things out to your kids, but you MUST do that. They need to know their father will have them xyz, WITHOUT you,& you will be with them xyz, without their father.

It's very hard to sit down with your kids & discuss the whys & hows of the brake up of their family, but it is essential for them to know the details of how there lives will move forward.

For the first year of our brake up we had many teary & emotional conversations about our situation & I was honest with them about my part of things & referred them to their father for his part. My desire was to just hold them & tell them all would be fine, but I knew we weren't going to reconcile & I also knew ex would not talk with them like I would.

Regarding spending time with ex doing holiday family things: I explained to them I invited their father because we had done these things as a family for so long so it's hard to just stop. I wanted their experience to be what they were used to but I also told them that because of D things will change & we can only wait & see what that change will be. Always ensuring them both mom & dad love them & will always celebrate with them though the specifics of how would change in the future.

Last year was the first year things were obviously different for them. ex came, opened gifts with them, even stayed to spend a little time with my family, then left. This year he will have them Christmas Eve then bring them here Christmas day, so things are still evolving. The boys have been informed & so far, have not expressed any disappointment or longing for what was when we were together as a family.

You're welcome Alison

Thanks Nams,



I answer questions honestly, I phrase things such that they will be able to discuss if they want. I say, "It really stinks that things aren't the way they used to be with dad and I living separate. It is ok to be sad or angry, do you want to talk about it"...usually I get feedback. When they ask and I don't know I either refer them to their father or tell them I don't know but that no matter what happens we will get through it. I never tell them that everything will be ok although it is very tempting but I know that it will never be the same for them regardless of the outcome.

We play "the feelings game", they each have 1:1 time with me daily where I put it out there if they want to talk about things. We eat dinner together and talk about our days. I have a white board for them to draw transient emotions; I have talked to their teachers and school counselor who are all supportive of this transition time and provide me with feedback. My oldest went to IC for 2 sessions but the IC felt I was doing everything that they would suggest so unless there was a crisis she did not need to return. We listen to the Amber Brown series on tape which is very good (Amber is in the middle of her parents divorce and remarriage and verbalizes feelings of having to choose parents, guilt about loving both, protectiveness for her mom etc)




I am and it kills me that even now I have to parent the WH as well as the kids. When will he ever have to be responsible/accountable for anything? All the visiting is around his schedule and convenience. I did what I could to help him get out so that he would just be gone like a bad splinter. I thought once he was gone it would end and he would start taking the lead on some things...wrong. So, tell me, I have my kids call daily and sometimes in am/pm to say good morning and good night. Do I just let them talk to him when he calls them? Am I supposed to encourage them to converse, call, spend time with him? Is there some guide on what I am supposed to do? I don't want to discourage or prevent them from time with him but I feel it should be on his initiative not mine. Additionally, I keep him posted on all of the school events, what they are doing and activities etc. I am the one that gets that info and have always tracked all this stuff...do I keep providing the info or wait until he asks...I don't want the kids to suffer.

Please, any advice or referrences needed!

2much,

I think you should let the kids talk to WH whenever they want. When I went through this brief phase (I mention that because I was clearly not in your situation) I gave my DDs an easy method to communicate with WW. I encouraged them to. At first they wanted to call night and day. After a week, they didn't want to call at all. Just the reassurance of knowing they could was more important to them than the actual call. I found it very healthy to leave the house while they were talking. Sometimes I couldn't because of bad connections and I had to stay to redial. But when I could go outside and not listen to any of it, I was much more relaxed.

I appreciate that you feel you are doing the responsible thing by keeping him informed of school, etc. but stop. He is an adult (more or less). I suggest you remind the kids to mention school things to WH and leave it at that. Don't even ask them later if they remembered. Get WH out of your head. You need to let go. The more communication you have with him, the harder that is to do. But it is important for the kids that you develop this separation because it will help them see the situation and understand it better.

You have to be careful in that some things you think may be the right thing to do could actually be counter-productive and hurt the kids. No matter what you do, you can't fix this by yourself.

Thanks for the input. I am currently out...WH visiting kids, he came in I confirmed his departure time, kissed the kids and left. He was aggravated that I was leaving but did not cause a scene. My DD1 was pissed at me and wanted me to take her with me but I refused. My DS asked what I was doing and I just calmly stated I was giving them time alone to spend with their dad.

As far as providing school info/event info, I will take your advice...I know he will miss things and it hurts my heart for the kids. I had to remind him of all of their Bdays and tell him what time to turn up for party and buy all gifts. When my Bday came around there was no one to remind them so it came and went without any cards/cake or wishes...I know similiar things will happen without me basically handling everything and telling him repeatedly when to show up. He was out overnight on DD1 bday and she was bummed that he didn't call at midnight to wish her happy bday etc. I will let him figure it out with them providing info. I know he will say I am setting him up to fail and doing it purposefully but at least I know what to expect.

He wants me to do the Christmas shopping (which I did last year but years prior we both did a little bit individually)and put from Mom and Dad on the gifts...how do you think I should handle this since I think he will come Christmas morning to watch them open gifts. After this year it will be totally different b/c we will be geographically separated in addition to maritally.

I remember when you were dealing with the DDs talking to G by phone and all the trouble with connections you had. My kids don't ask to call WH...if it were up to them I'm not sure they would initiate more than 2 times/week except for DS who has trouble expressing self and needs prompting...he is the one who misses WH most as far as I can see.



Anything in specific? Don't hold back, I seriously want your opinion.

2much,

I come back in a while when I have a few more minutes. Right now I am in the middle of my morning workout/rush to get ready to go to work so don't have many extra minutes.

One thing I would do is do the Christmas shopping myself, send a bill for 50% to WH and put a card on gifts from Mom and Dad and leave it at that. This is one you really need to detach from quickly because it will make you a wreck if you don't. Of course WH will be just as surprised as kids when they open the presents but it will make a great Kodak moment.

[In case you hadn't noticed, I think it is helpful to find/keep your sense of humor through all this. I found that if I didn't laugh, I would cry. Laughing is better.]

Life has changed/is changing for all of you. Don't discount how important Christmas has been for you. We all love to see our kids happy and joyful and even more so at Christmas. That will still happen for them if you and WH don't get in the way. Don't fret so much about trying to protect them from every little hurt. Just be ready with the Unguatine when they do get hurt. I have a hip holster for the stuff.

And about WH forgetting everything like Bdays, etc. - that is a "guy thing". I know some great software for PDA's that solves a lot of this problem. FWIW, I forget my OWN Bday.

Every once in a while there is something in a post that jumps out at me. I mull it, twist it, turn it and try to absorb it. This is one. Now before I get started, let me be the first to say that I realize we are getting into that whole pot/kettle realm again so just save your breath.

I had written a couple of things in my previous post that I deleted because I thought they were harsh. Oh well, get ready for a whacking...

That statement really bothers me and I will try to explain why. Let's say that your WH moves out, his boss doesn't know that and he calls your house telling you that WH needs to be Poughkeepsie on Thursday or he will be fired and you "accidentally" forget to pass on the message. That fully qualifies as setting WH up for failure. Not reminding him of his childrens' Bdays or not goading him to call does not qualify. WH is not your child. He is an adult. You should never have had to remind him of birthdays. If he forgot, he should have dealt with it but you have always "protected" him. This child is about to leave the nest and you have to let go. He doesn't need you to sew his name in his underwear. If he gets it confused, that's his problem.

You are not responsibile for WH's actions therefore you cannot be in a position to set him up for failure. If he forgets a birthday and DD or DS get upset by that, hopefully they will relate that, resolve it and, if it really bothers WH, he can decide what to do about it next time. Don't try to mother WH. Even if he comes back and you two can recover the M, you need to stop doing these things. He is an adult. He is responsible for his own actions and the consequences of those actions. He has never learned to do any differently till now because he hasn't needed to.

WH sounds a bit immature in some respects. Let him grow up. He doesn't need a mother. To be honest, the fact that he has always been protected and never had to take much responsibility may be one factor that is hindering him now. Obviously I can't know that but I believe that has been the case with gemela. I always tried my best to protect her and maybe I even tried to protect her from herself. I was wrong. I don't do that any more. I support her and help her but she is the captain of her ship. If she chooses to fail, I will by all means let her. I have two DDs that are a 24/7 job. I don't want the third any more.

Stop worrying about what WH is going to do or not do. Let him go do it. You focus on you and your children. You don't owe them any apologies or explanations for WH's actions. Sometimes "I don't know" is a perfectly good answer.

Okay vent done. I'm sorry if that seems harsh. I am only trying to help and that is how I feel about your recent posts. Make this a great Christmas for you AND the kids. WH is on his own. He can be happy if he chooses to be.

Oops! Just got a panicked call from WW. Another batch of baby hamsters! So far two have popped out! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

I'm so proud!!!