Stph,

I doubt you will find any good statistics on Plan A functionality. It is hard enough to get statistics on M's that survive. Also, not everyone follows the Harley plan. In addition, think of how many affairs that are NEVER discovered yet the family stays together. Even so, it is not hard to believe that such a small percentage survive with Plan A alone. In fact, I will be so bold as to conjecture that an M that survives on Plan A alone has much more to do with the WS than the BS.I'll try to give my explanation why I believe that.

Someone who is in an A is in a fog. But how did they BEGIN the A? The began it not by falling out of love with BS but by losing respect for BS or else learned that the BS didn't just NOT meet their EN's but were actually counter to it. Okay admittedly there are also the serial cheaters who are just looking for the next conquest. I'm not talking about them. So something has gone terribly wrong in the M. WS finds someone else. Now they are addicted (or fogged). No matter what the BS does, it will never match up to the OP. The OP has become perfection in the eyes of the WS. The OP simply is the answer to all life's problems. Okay now BS does a Plan A. Does WS magically fall back in love with BS? Does WS despise OP? No. Something brings the WS back to the M and I don't believe it is the BS. I think it is more something like a moral compass. Because you are asking the WS to redirect their course even though they are so strongly pulled in the direction of the OP. To return to the BS is the ultimate sacrifice. Even in spite of the fog, I believe that some WS doubt the sanity of what they are doing. They may not openly express it but something inside them tells them that something is amiss. They are suddenly afraid to leave the BS without really knowing why. Then NC gets established and eventually they return fully to the M (ideal case).

It is far easier to break the A in Plan B because then you remove the fantasy element from the A. Now WS has to face cold reality and sees OP for what they really are. In some cases, I'm sure the OP really does turn out to be a more attractive option than BS and the A thrives. But that is the exception rather than the rule. Even though WS thinks they have left BS for their soulmate, the reality is that they left BS for the first thing that smiled at them.

So recovering the M from Plan B may still be affected by the moral compass (as well as the nature of the BS). The WS may not love BS but does now detest OP and wants to make amends and try to restore some sanity to their life. So BS (if the door is still open) offers that opportunity.

This is all hypothesis on my part but I think it would be interesting to correlate recovered M's from Plan A only with social and/or religious background. I tend to believe it takes a very specific type of individual to return to the M in Plan A alone.

Maybe this has already been answered but if Mickey Mouse and Mighty Mouse got into a fight, who would win?

Remember Pio - the goal is not for your marriage to survive but to thrive. I would settle for no less.

I am thinking about your other comments too BTW.

I'm not sure if you are responding to the post or the email. I don't disagree with thriving vs. surviving but I think one does come before the other. I'm still trying to survive. I think I'll have to wait a bit for thrive.

Thanks BigK.

Pio, you have an interesting view & I agree with you. It was me not stph who asked about the success of plan A & plan B.

I'm going to phrase this differently but I think were close in what we see.

Plan A is part of a formula that offers the WS a look at life with a BS spouse in the best possible light. Plan B offers the BS respite from the hurt caused by the WS & a possible way to save what love for the WS they may have left.

The theory is because two people were once in love enough to get married, they can get there again by meeting each other's primary needs.

What I think you've said, Pio, that makes this more real life & less theory is that WSs need to make the choice to re-engage in the marriage & their choice is largely guided by their moral compass. The BS may have set a nice stage & shown the WS how they can improve the marriage & meet the WS's needs better, but ultimately, the BS decides based on many factors, morals being a strong one.

I've always viewed Harley's strategies as the best possible out there. I've seen other strategies that have merit & do have some similarities to Harley's but his take you through all the stages.

What can't be determined is the unpredictability with which humans makes choices. What inner voice are they listening to? What has the most appeal? And why?

My curiosity got me wondering about the success rates of marriages after infidelity whether it be EA or PA. I don't know if I'd feel encouraged or let down to know what we really can't & that is the real numbers of thriving marriages after infidelity.

I think both Harley and Pittman concur in that there are no good statistics. WS has to make a choice except that they have already made it. They have already checked out of the marriage and are on to greener pastures. I don't think any WS will look at a great Plan A of a BS and say "gee, I was totally wrong - look at what I am missing". I think Plan A is the BS's attempt to let the WS leave with the best possible impression of BS as they go to Plan B. Some don't make it that far.

But I look back at gemela's OM. I see him for what he is (basically a loser - a nothing) but she viewed him as her Prince Charming and, in her mind, I was the loser. Yet she stayed. She did not stay because I presented a better alternative based on her mindset at the time. She stayed for the kids but I also think she stayed because she knew it was "right".

One thing I have remembered is shortly after the "I love you but am not in love with you" talk and before Dday, gemela came home one day after talking to a friend and told me that she wanted to try to work on the M. This was before Dday. Unfortunately after she came to that conclusion, OM started pulling every string he could find to rope her in. Then we had Dday and the rest is history (a work in progress). So gemela, as in love with OM as she was, had something guiding her back to the M. I think now if she had to choose between me and OM, her decision would be much different than it would have been when she was still in the fog. Doesn't really matter though.

I also think our brief Plan B was good for both of us. I proved to myself that I could do okay without her. The DDs did survive. She got to see that life with her family back in Mexico was not all sunshine and roses either.

I guess my point is that I don't think that doing a so-so Plan A as compared to a great Plan A makes a gnat's eyelash worth of difference. If the WS is going to stay based on Plan A alone, I think it is more their personal choice than the influence of the BS. JMO (sorry BigK - JMVHO).

...uhmmm....well..then, Pio, maybe...I had two 24-hr bugs...one after the other <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />.... and I see your hamsters are keeping you busy!



Hi stph20....glad TO BE back <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />...for the rest...sorry...I know a 'hopeless' case when I see one...LOL! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

...and I see that Todd is no help.....even though he's supposed to REPRESENT the hamsters???!!!! ....ooups! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />....I FORGOT...Todd has memory problems...LOL!



Hi Nams. I also think that some WS's may HAVE the moral compass telling them to do one thing, but refuse to listen to it because of the EFFORT it will require (N\C with OP among other things!)...and choose what they THINK is the 'path with the least resistance' by choosing OP...but in these case, I think the WS in reality is choosing perpetual internal conflict and therefore a 'longer more arduous' path to inner peace which may never be attained, which for me is no way to live...... unless, for starters, WS one day faces up to the destructive impact of choices and starts to make amends!

Just my....uhmmm.. .04! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Paying in Canadian now are we?

..no...inflation! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

You misunderstand inflation. We still only give our two cents - our opinion just isn't worth as much.

What about Goofy and Pluto?

Tigger and Tony the Tiger?

Superman, Batman and Spiderman?

Cinderella and Snow White?

Batman?

Spiderman?

stph, wash your mouth out with soap!

They couldn't carry my cape.

Sorry Todd....just wanted to see if you were paying attention. OF COURSE you would win, no doubt about it!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Hey Stef,

You don't tug on Superman's cape. You don't throw kryponite rocks at Superman. I will be darned if I am going to let you cast dispersions at Superman.

As for Batman, he has zero superpowers. I mean, he needs a plane, car and a helicopter just to get around. As for Spiderman, okay I cannot spin webs, but then, I don't need to.

Hi Todd.

You don't spit into the wind, you don't pull the mask off the ole Lone Ranger and you don't mess around with Todd...


So...you can fly....what else have you got for me? That's not going to cut it!

Okay, TKO brothers and sisters, I need help. I apologize in advance because this post is about infidelity. I personally apologize to Pio for bringing the thread down and getting off topic.

It has been a year since I confronted my STBXW about her romantic LTA. Eleven months since she confessed. Nine months since I moved out. I am doing fine. I have detached from STBXW. I don't think about her and OM; I could care less. However, I just learned that I still have triggers. My triggers, ironically, are other WW who have "entitlementitis". I just read a few posts on the other site in which WW laid out the "reasons" why they cheated.

For example, one said that she had three kids and a H who didn't like to do anything. OM was a chum from high school and they "found" each other on MySpace. So, she few out of town to join him for 2 days, her BH discovered and she expressed her remorse by flying to meet OM for four days. Oh, OM was fun don't you know? He took her to the state fair, a concert and out to dine in a fine restuarant. She didn't do it for the SF. Oh, the SF was wonderful of course, but OM is a player and she would never leave her family for him. Invariably, when a WS posts the "reasons" for their A, many BS will join in and agree. "I ran my husband away and into the waiting arms of OW".

So, here is my question: are there any BS reading this who feel responsible for the A? Please do not say that you contributed to the problems which made the A possible. If you do, I will scream. An A is a choice: a poor one. Somebody help me out. Calm me down. Tell me what you think. I am absolutely livid.

Well, I will articulate my case. I am faster than a speeding bullet. More powerful than a locomotive. I can leap tall buildings in a single bound. I have x-ray vision and can see through "things". I have fire and heat breath. I also have ice breath. I can breathe in outer space or underwater with my equipment. I have super hearing. I can run faster than the Flash. And most remarkably, I can fly around the Earth at rapid speed and set the entire world back in time.

There.

Calm down Todd. As BS's the A's that our WS's CHOSE to engage in IS NOT OUR FAULT!!!!!!!!!

There are problems in the marriage (don't scream) that makes the WS "unhappy" and he/she chose the wimpy (I could/should use another word here, but I'll be nice) way out.

My WH said he was unhappy in our M. Fine. Then talk to me about it and let's work on it together. He didn't do that. He's a pansy. But he cut me out of that part of his life (by not communicating with me). How am I to be responsible for that? I'm not, IMHO. I couldn't read his mind and make him communicate with me any more than I could keep his pants on him. That's HIS problem to deal with now (why he did it). It's OUR problem to solve the problems that we had before.

And, Todd, you aren't responsible for your STBXW's actions either. THIS IS NOT YOUR FAULT, in any way, shape or form. You did not do this. You are the admirable one in fighting for your marriage, you did not contribute to her A.

Did I answer your question, or was I all over the board?

OK, OK, I surrender! You win. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

Why can't I tug on your cape?

Todd,

I think whether the BS feels responsible or not is, in many cases, time-dependent. Dday and its fallout is a huge blow to the self-esteem of many BS. We are depressed. The WS blames us and we have little defense. We accept their rewritten history because our worlds are crumbling around us and this person we adore and respect and hold on a pedestal has done something that they should be incapable of. It is easy to blame ourselves because we don't want to blame WS. But as time passes, we begin to realize who WS really is, how weak they are, how selfish and immature they behave. We re-examine ourselves, we regain our confidence little by little and we begin to see what is really happening.

So in my case, if I see a BS right after Dday who blames themself, I take it with a grain of salt. If I see a BS who does so a year or two after Dday, I have little patience for that. If the WS was truly that unhappy, there are options: counseling and divorce. Affairs have never been nor will be a valid choice.

Cinderella and Snow White? A cat fight... Ooooh...I need a cold shower.... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />