Hi BigK...hurry and get un-busy. We miss you!

Okay here is the email I sent to BigK and to Todd. You can all chime in if you wish.

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Well against my better judgment and in a bit of anger, I had a talk with WW last night and told her that I am at the end of my rope and don't know how much more I can take. I told her that I am very angry and not because of the A. I told her people make mistakes and deserve another chance but I can never forgive her for something she is not the least bit sorry for. I told her that what she had done hurt us all but me the most and I resented her cavalier attitude pretending all was well in Camelot while I was suffering. I could go into more details but you get the gist.



WW told me that she is sorry and she cries every day while I am at work for the shame of what she has done but she hides that from me because she doesn't want to hurt me. I told her that by hiding her feelings, she was doing exactly what she says she doesn't want to do. She said she is sorry but doesn't want to tell me that because she is afraid I will get mad. I asked if I had gotten mad before or had she just decided that on her own. She said she had decided on her own.



I told her that by hiding her feelings she was not being honest with me. I told her that I could never trust a woman who had done what she had done and not felt the slightest remorse. She told me not to trust her then. I said I wanted a divorce in that case. She said she is very sorry for everything but wants to be positive and happy for me. I told her she is not helping me by doing that. She asked what I wanted. I told her that we need to communicate. We should not try to hide our feelings. By her expressing those feelings to me, she shows me that she is human rather than the evil witch I am beginning to believe she is. She said she is trying to show me by actions. I said that I appreciated that and have been very pleased with the effort she has made but I cannot read her mind. I am in defensive mode right now and if I have two choices, I am going to assume the worst. The only way she can set me straight is to tell me herself.



Last night I was asleep before she got in bed (depression). This AM I was getting ready to go to work and thinking that WW and I were going to have the final D talk. When I got out of the bathroom, she had a different idea. I think we are a little bruised but okay and I think it will turn out to have been a good thing.



She did ask me last night if I thought about another woman. I told her yes I did. She asked why I didn't do it. I told her because I was married. I asked her if she was suggesting that I have an A. She said no. I asked if she was suggesting we become swingers. She said she wasn't suggesting anything – it was just a question. I said that yes I did think about it sometimes but I knew I would never have an A. It would only be to escape the pain I am in and would be a fantasy. It wouldn't be real. As much baggage as I have form the damage she has done to me, it would be unfair to everyone involved that I have a relationship with another woman right now. I told her that if I divorced her today, I expected it would be a minimum of 5 years before I ever thought about seeing another woman. I would need that much time to heal. I did ask her if she wanted a divorce. She said no. I was ready to agree with her if she had said yes.

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So I was curious that, of all the things she could think to ask, why that? And I already had a suspicion.

I think she asked because she's scared of a revenge affair Pio.

Is that what you thought?

So you asked her if she wanted a divorce and she said no, but you were ready to agree if she had said yes...what was your reaction to her no? Are you depositing in her bank, or do you not care enough at this point?

stph,

I won't go so far as to speculate that she is concerned about a revenge A. But I do think she had a motive. That motive was either to try to justify something or for fear of something. My first reaction was justification but, after a little thought, I leaned more toward fear. Fear of what? I'm not sure.

I think fear of you doing the same thing as she. And the M being truly over if you did.

As I said to Pio, I think she's scared he's moving on because she has seen no sign from him he wants this marriage.

Well criticize me all you want but I think I have put up with quite a lot. I have heard even Harley advocates "compensation" and, so far, I have received essentially none IMHO. So I am having trouble WANTING to reconnect because I see a WW who is still a WW with no regrets about being a WW except getting caught. That's what I see. If she wants to change that perception, she needs to throw me a bone. Yes she has been attentive but I cannot read her mind. I think communication is missing.

Pio,

Why do you remain married to her?

Because many people have said that withdrawal takes time and that true remorse may take six months or even much longer. Many people have said you do not have to be in love to begin recovery and that, following MB principles, you can fall back in love. So my plan was to establish NC and give WW time. During that time I would, to the best of my abilities, follow MB guidelines. And, regardless of how I felt, I would stay with that plan. So I am following my original plan.

If we can recover the M and the family, it will be a far better environment for the DDs. Any strength I have to hold to the plan, I derive from them. If I had no DDs, I would easily have drop-kicked WW for a three pointer by now.

She is sending me very mixed signals. I see many positive actions but zero communication. I can always get a divorce. Right now I am waiting to see what happens. I am trying to spend 15 hours with WW each week. I am avoiding DJ's and the majority of LB's. I'm trying to follow the four rules as best as possible allowing for human error.

Pio - NOWHERE does HArley EVER say that regret or remorse are necessary to recovery. Just compensation is always in the form of NC and following a plan for marital recovery.

Having said that, I could not live without the remorse from my wife and knowing she "got it" but that point came 6 months into recovery. You are not in recovery yet.

Nothing I have said should be interpretted as a criticism of you in any way shape or form. We all make our own way through this mess.

I have not deluded myself into believing otherwise. As long as WW remains dishonest, we will never begin recovery. By hiding her true feelings - whatever they are - she is not being honest. So here I go plugging along trying to maintain peace and order until that magic day when we do begin recovery and have to fend off these 2x4's in the meantime. I feel like I always have to defend myself for continuing in the M. I am not referring to anyone in particular BTW. It is just a general feeling. But I am not happy. My life is filled with much unhappiness at the moment. But I accept that as a necessary cost.

Yesterday I finally mounted the router to my table saw. Sad to say but that is the most pleasure I have had in months. It is simply perfection. I could not have done it any better. Unfortunately what I did learn was that I have not had nearly enough respect in my life for machine head bolts. I got by but "just". Now I need to develop a collection of machine head bolts. I have always preferred socket head and hex head. I have plenty of those in all sizes, lengths and threads (English AND metric) - but only a handfull of machine head bolts.

Pio FWIW I honestly don't think of you as anything but a success. It grieves me to think you would consider anything I have said today as a 2 X 4. You are a MB success IMO

(((((((((((PIO)))))))))



....and I think you are 'communicating' this to G...
....keep 'showing' her how to communicate feelings and how to be honest about them as you are... keep telling her that you prefer knowing how she feels...even if it hurts....because otherwise you will think the worst...

...I do think G. is scared with talks of D....is lost and needs guidance... needs to be reassured that you do want the M to recover...but that both of you are struggling to figure out how to do that...

...and I am sorry for the pain you are feeling....and wish I could give you a REAL hug!

...we all care very much about you Pio... and thank you for sharing your post to a 'larger circle'...and getting out of your 'comfort zone' of Todd and BigK....

...you are judging yourself waaaayyyy to harshly....my dear Pio!

Hi everyone!

I'm sure everyone is busy getting ready for Christmas...we are making Reindeer Food at my house today (Chex, cheerios, m&m's, peanuts and chocolate)...had house full of kids yesterday and it was a super-duper diversion and felt great. I even watched the neighbors, toddler and infant with all my kids friends over...chaos but fun chaos.

WH called making arrangements for DD1 to take over his cell phone with new phone and # on the plan...I was on the call as 3rd party as he was transferring service into my name...he was discussing the transition with the customer service person and referred to me as his XW!!! I asked him if I was getting an early promotion!!! LOL, I thought that was very telling. Kicker is he picked up kids last night to stay with him for the night...when he got them he walked up to me nose to nose and whispered "I hate you" and began crying...I smooched him quick on the lips when we were nose to nose and said, "good to know"...he hugged me and I cheerfully said..."come on just say it out loud, you want a divorce..." he bursts into tears and says he doesn't, he wants to be nice, talk etc...I asked him when he was going to start talking...he says, "I don't know, when it's too late..." I shook my head, waved and shut the door...Go figure. I am proceeding as planned.

Pio...



I think you are talking to yourself...IMHO and correct me if I am wrong, you are daily questioning why you are still there and are having to convince self it is worth it right? It is draining, frustrating and depressing...I think your taker is in huge withdrawal and now that G has been back some time it is execting some deposits even if your logic isn't. I think your plan sounds great...please try and hold out...good chance G is just so afraid that you are going to decide that her actions are unforgivable and throw her to the curb...she is most likely acting how she thinks you want her to act but in not communicating to you she complicates things more...what a web of confusion.

When you are spending 15 hr/wk what are you doing that there is no communication? Are you waiting for G to initiate the conversation? She is probably afraid that anything she brings up will cause you more hurt and pain and could potentially trigger a reaction that could lead you to change your mind and give up on M...she is most likely scared poopless and a wreck on the inside if she is truly remorseful and wanting to save M. What about POJA...could you not discuss some rules that reassure her that no matter what she tells you and despite your emotional reaction you will be there for the family? Reality is you do have the right to decide if it is/isn't worth it and G realizes this...I bet this is the hardest thing for WS b/c it is instinctive to protect yourself so it would be easier for them in most cases to not even bother with the work of recovery since as my WS has said many months ago, I don't want to go through all the pain and work just to have you realize you can't get over it or I make a slip up and then you kick me to the curb anyway...

Have you considered the home study course that BK did? Are you going to IC? What is BK's recommendation for this phase?


Hugs to Nams...sorry about the person who considers you a friend...sounds like you need to Plan B her!

Luna, good to see you cheerful...hope all is well with the boys and that you are neck deep in fun and Holiday spirit/mischief1

BK, sup! Any specialty foods for the Holidays from your place you care to share??? I love hot crab dip if anyone has any scrumptious recipes for anything related to this or a bisque?

Stph...hugz for you and superpowers from Todd to endure and enjoy the Holidays!

Todd...where are you? You must be out searching for Larousse who has abandoned the TKO ship.

Beth, hope you have some down time to rest and relax in all the retail mess! As a shopper, I love the hustle and bustle but not so sure as a retail owner if I would feel the same...seems like there are lots of grouchy folks looking to vent out there. Hang in there!

Cinders...I am waiting to hear how you are...

Having some guests tonight to help entertain the kids...board game night...wish me luck this is not my favoritest activity...not a big gamer...hopefully I will have so much fun I'll forget we are playing a board game and learn to love them...I can try right?!

Hi 2much! You sound in a great mood! Good for you.

Your WH sounds like he wants what he wants & all should accommodate his wishes. A narcissist perhaps? I was saddened to read he had his first affair at what 3-6 months into your marriage? Perhaps a sex addict as well? Eek!

Pio, from my perspective you are making great efforts to save your marriage. You've also been open & honest about your feelings.

My only suggestion would be to sit down with G & tell her in no uncertain terms what you need. Use specific words like this:

G, I need to see remorse. I need to see you understand the pain you've caused me & the girls. You must show me you're truly sorry. It seems you've stepped back into our family to move on as if before the affair, behaving as you would have if this never happened. But it did & something different is required of you now before I can feel safe, before I can feel love for you again, before we can really recover.

I need you to talk to me about what you're feeling, If you're afraid I won't love you again, if you're uncertain if you love me, if you're afraid you might cheat again or that I might, I want to hear that. I need to hear that.

To say you need to have communication from her may be vague. Be very specific in what you need to hear from her.

Just my VHO.

You're right 2much, I do need to plan B my "friend".

A friend has brought up a very good point & that is that NMNK is likely doing the best she can to be a friend. But for lack of understanding regarding my circumstances she's been hurtful & shown me things about her that make her unattractive as a friend.

Hey Todd! nams waves! Hope all is well down in your neck of the woods.

Hi, stph, BigK, Luna

Pio-
You have put up with a lot. Explain to her exactly what you need from her in order for this to work. You have the tools you need, you know how to get the communication back, share that with G. You both need to know that you both are committed. I see G as being scared and I see you (obviously) having trust issues. Both of those things are going to take time to deal with, but you have to start somewhere. And maybe, deep down, you're as scared as G is?

I appreciate what you are all saying but from my POV it is interfering with the experimental model. If I say "I need X" and I get "X", is "X" real or fabricated to appease?

Hi 2much-

It sounds like you're holding up rather well. I'm so glad to see it. Obviously whatever you're doing is working on your WH! Why do they always think it will be too late? My WH said the same thing. He was going to proceed as planned (getting a divorce), then regret it for the rest of his life because it would be to late. IMO, he would be right. Once D papers are signed, I don't think I would ever go back. But that's neither here nor there.

I'm just glad to see your in a great mood. Enjoy the weekend and holidays.

{{{{{{{2much}}}}}}}

Hi nams! I agree with everyone on your friend situation. With friends like that, who needs enemies?

IMO, it may very well be fabricated in the beginning. Women tend to be pleasers. But eventually, it will be the real thing.

OTOH, she may want you so badly that it will be real from the start.

You'll be able to tell by her consistency, don't you think?