I wondered if you felt this way Pio.

But don't you think you'll be able to spot G's sincerity?

Let her know what you need in plain terms then leave it to her to find a way to express that. Of course, don't push her away out of hurt, be open to her way of communicating her remorse.

You seem a perceptive & intuitive man. If you have a niggling suspicion or feeling express it to yourself. What can it hurt at this point?

When I was in the midst of false recovery with ex I said all the right things to myself about his sincerity. But there was this persistent voice inside of me not allowing me to fool myself. I didn't want it to see the light of day but late at night it would wake me up just to be heard.

If G's responses to your request fall flat part of you will know it. More often than not we know, we just don't want acknowledge the feelings.

Pio,

I just posted this on Hiker's thread that we were on yesterday. I have not read your entire thread to know exactly how you come to this point but this is my observation of what I have seen so far. Take it for what it's worth or Not!


Pio,

I am going to be frank here. IMO you letting your' anger control you in this situation. I carried my anger for a V E R Y L O N G time after the A. But the difference is that my wife was never made aware of it. It was my anger not hers.

Yes she caused it but my taking it out on her was not going to correct the problem. I felt the only way for us to move forward was to work on us in the present and future not dwell on the past mistakes. We worked together and eventually she did come to be remorseful and contrite. But she never has known the depth of Hurt her affair caused me. And that's the way I wanted it because in fact I'm not sure she could have handled it well knowing. That alone may have been the final deal breaker as she was close to a breakdown from the stress of the whole thing.

I would suggest giving her your' best effort at recovery and stop the DJs, LBs, etc. Show how much you really want her in your' life and not that you are ready to dump her now or later if she doesn't respond as you think she should. If you really work on this give the CARE and LOVE a wife needs she will respond sooner than later.

Right now the work load is YOUR's not her's. GET BUSY!!!!!!!!

It's up to YOU if you want it to work!!!!!

Good question but keep in mind that WS's develop a keen ability to lie. Factor in that humans perceive things based on their own emotional states so I'm not unbiased. She has always been able to resoundingly convince the IC of her lies so I consider that a better litmus test.

No question I got really angry just before our wedding anniversary and, although it has abated quite a bit, I still feel it and have nothing more to attribute it to than maybe the holidays. I will say that there is probably not a moment that goes by that I don't think about this. I usually don't feel anger. Generally I feel disappointment. What makes me angry more than anything is when we have opportunities to communicate but don't. We seem to have developed a whole new language whose sole purpose is to convey meaning without communicating. Kind of like how we great people and ask how they are but the reality is we don't want the real answer - we want them to tell us they are fine so we can continue on with our lives. Like WW will ask me "how I woke up". It makes sense in Spanish but not in English. Anyway, she wants me to say "fine". If I begin to say anything else she gets nervous and says something like "Oh! The cake is burning!" and starts to run toward the kitchen. I'll stop her and remind her she isn't baking a cake. She says "Oh! I need to bake a cake!" and runs to the kitchen.

Her feelings may be of contrition. Or they may be of despair over missing PB. Or they may be indecision over what color to paint the ceiling. The point is I don't know. I am operating blind and in a vacuum and I am now in to self-preservation so I tend to assume the worst given multiple possibilities. I may well be wrong but WW does nothing to change my mind. Affair or no affair, communication is important to have a good marriage. We don't communicate therefore we cannot have a good marriage. I have been (generally) patient trying to give her time to open up. However at the same time, I grow more distant from her. It possible that by the time she wants me to throw her a lifeline, the rope won't be long enough to reach.

Hi everyone,

Just sneaking a minute to say hi. I try to keep track of what is happening here with you all.

I really only do have a minute so please forgive me for only making a post to Pio.

Pio, my WH has made the comment several times that although he wants to R he knows it is pointless. He is of the opinion that I will never forgive him anyway, he thinks that every argument that we have in the future I will harp back to his A's and use them against him. He freely admits he would never forgive me under the same circumstances. He has wondered if I have been tempted to look elsewhere for affection, as he thinks he would deserve that. He also now tells me that some days the guilt of what he has done nearly destroys him and he is apalled at his selfish behavior.If I would consider R he doubts that he is man enough to live with the look of sadness he sees in my eyes even when I smile.

I am only telling you this as it does give some insight into the minds of our spouses. I guess when reality hits them then they do suffer too. I can only imagine the guilt they feel when they think about the devastation their selfish actions caused.

It is like being caught in quicksand for us both.

Sorry this is so rushed but keep working at it Pio.
You have such a good chance to make this work.
God bless you all.

When gemela asked me if I had thought about a relationship with another woman, I said yes - mainly because it was the truth. But I have not thought about any woman in particular. It is a "fantasy" woman with whom I can share love, I'm free from infidelity, life is wonderful and I think there may even be butterflies flittering casually in the spring meadow I seem to be standing in for no obviously good reason. IOW, I think about a relationship free of and far away from infidelity. OTOH, I appear to have some unexplained aversion to "real" other women. So I guess I have to stay with gemela and keep chasing butterflies.

(brief threadjack to answer 2m's question: epidural steroid injection was yesterday. seems somewhat better. Have appointment with neurosurgeon Monday. Don't know if surgery is immenent or if it's 6 months away or 2 years away. But, if potential diminshment of use of my arm/s is likely if I wait, waiting is not an option. Even my children could see that some of the MRI film did NOT look good. They could see the 2 points of spinal cord impingement. We shall see what we shall see.)

Pio - question - (I think I already know the answer BTW)

Have YOU committed to being married to Gemela?

Because commitment is a 2 way street. I am not surprised she is feeling insecure with all the mixed and guarded messages you are giving her.

What are Gemelas EN's? Are you meeting her needs and she yours?

Pio - you both need to commit to recovery without hanging onto parachute and escape clauses. Gemela is confused. She is looking for a way back into your heart. SHe is doing everything she knows how and she is not seeing what she considers would be your response if you wanted back in as well. Hence she asks if there is anyone else. She does not know what else to do Pio.

You have to take the lead on this. Your marriage can make it but you are the greatest danger to it at the moment which is totally fine if that is what you want.

BigK,

I'm going to throw this out because it just occurred to me. First I will reiterate that something magically changed for me the day I found the love letters and photos. I know you are going to hammer me for dwelling on the past but bear with me here. At the time, I thought that was the best thing that could ever have happened because I finally saw OM for what he really was (i.e. an [censored]-wipe nothing). That felt good. But something else happened that day that I've never been able to put my finger on. That day has always been a turning point for reasons I've never understood. It wasn't just the last straw or yet another case of catching gemela in the lie. What I think happened is that, on that day, I lost respect for her. And I think that's where I may be at now - I don't respect her any more. I respected her more when I thought she had fallen in love with Prince Gallahad. But now that I see what she did all this for, I don't respect her any more.

Pio,

This is what you need to see. Do you really want this M or NOT? Yes you have been hurt, you are angry, you feel you don't respect her, but it is not her so much as what she did. RIGHT!!!! You need to also remember that when she did that she was a WS, not your Gemela. IMHO You need to "MAN UP" as they say and as Big K said "Take the lead" if you want this M to work!!!!!

Pio - they always affair down. My wife's OM was someone she would never even look at if she was single. OM was inferior to me in every respect.

My wife lost my respect as well of course. She earned it back when she re-entered the marriage and did what needed to be done to repair the devastation. She listened to my venting at her. She did the hardest thing she could do by recommitting to our marriage.

Sounds great - and yet you don't seem willing to allow me the same luxury. I have to admit I am getting some mixed signals on the forum today.

On a different note, in addition to respecting gemela, I have to be able to respect myself. Some people might derive that from total self-denial and swallow all the humiliation, etc. etc. In fact, that is what Plan A relies on. So how does a man really define himself? If I can't respect me, I don't think gemela will respect me and I think Todd will back me up on this but I believe gemela respects more that I DON'T swallow it. JMO but I think it is a "latin" thing.

Or as Luna would put it - I think my "taker" is coming forward.

Pio - I'm not suggesting you should swallow it and I am more than happy to allow you the same luxury.

In case I am speaking in code, let me plainly state:-

1. Your marriage can recover
2. I believe both you and Gemela want it to recover
3. Recovery is not a spectator sport and is not passive. You must BOTH participate equally and enthusiastically.

You want her to re-enter the marriage while you sit on the sidelines and watch and secondguess her every move.

I would HATE to see you divorce because I know you can make it.

Actuallt - (3) above is not necessarily true - but your recovery will be deeper and better and quicker if it is.

I fail to see where working on your M with your wife can be seen as anything but showing respect for both her and you or seen as you losing self respect. From my perspective if you are unbending and unwilling to move forward without some nebulous words from your wife asking for forgiveness then that is not respecting her and by being so rigid you are then losing your self respect.

What's this Latin thing got to do with this? Sounds to me like some kind false sense of pride that you won't let go of so you can move forward in Your M.

Opps I just DJ'd

You know what though if you were to take the Lead and swallow some of that pride you might just be surprised where your' Wife would go with you in this M.

My wife has been fence-sitting a very very long time. I'm a little tired of it. I think I have swallowed about a year's worth of pride. As BigK can attest, I'm full of it. I Plan A'ed way way too long. Big mistake. I'm very close to Plan D each and every day. I don't believe I display that to gemela except on rare occasions. I think I am being a very loving and good husband. I'm just unhappy inside.

So BigK, in a nutshell, the one thing I am doing wrong is I am not enthusiastic. I can't disagree.

On a side note, Cinderella, Please look after yourself. It sounds pretty bad. Hope it wasn't the hoop. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Pio,

As I told you in an earlier post I haven't read your complete thread and really don't heve the time to do so. I have been just responding to what I have been observing of your' recent posts. They seem pretty negative to me. I hope that you can find a way make this work out.

So what is keeping her on the fence? Could it be fear of how you will react if she lets her defenses down?

IMO you might try letting know that you are there because you love her and that the past has already been forgiven by you whether she asks or not. That's showing her that you are taking the Lead and want to work on the M with her.
That's also something to be respected for and definitly a self respecting act.

I still feel that if you keep working on being really positive, as hard as that may be, you will end up the better for it and so will your' M.

Todd,

I'm interested in your opinion. Do you think your PRWW would respect you more or less if you caved completely and absolved her of all responsibility for the A?

I don't see anyone telling you to do that Pio.

I always grew up with a Nativity scene for Christmas. I know many people do. But, according to gemela, the Nativity scene is probably one of the most important traditions for Mexicans. Sadly when we moved to Saudi we had to ship all our Christmas decorations to the USA so that they would not be confiscated by Saudi customs. Unfortunately this meant the Nativity scene as well. Last year (after Christmas) WW decided she could go no longer without a Nativity scene. She found one she really liked from a website in Mexico and I ordered it and had it shipped to SIL's house. SIL sent it to us in Saudi via DHL because we thought that would give us the best chance of getting it. We thought wrong. Between the Nativity scene (with 12" ceramic figures), the stable, the Fed-ex charges to SIL's house and the DHL charges to Saudi, we were out about $1,000. Unfortunately the thing never got past Saudi customs (on three different tries). DHL was going to ship it back to Mexico (at my expense) but (long story short) I was able to divert it clandestinely to Bahrain where it received less scrutiny. So I had a vendor arrange to bring it across to me. Unfortunately rather than put it in his car and bring it across at his leisure, he, wanting to impress me, sent it across with his company driver. They were stopped on the bridge and inspected. Fortunately the driver with his quick thinking was able to convince the customs officer that the Nativity scene was oilfield parts. So it finally arrived after three months but just barely.

This is the first year we have had to use the Nativity scene. WW had a Latina luncheon in the house right after Thanksgiving so we made a mad rush to decorate for Christmas to impress the ladies (which did succeed). In our rush, we created a three-tiered platform for the Nativity scene out of bricks we keep lying around for just such occasions. Even as I was doing it, I did not enjoy placing expensive 12" ceramic figurines on bricks in the middle of the floor right in front of the Christmas tree. In fact I spent a sleepless night over it. That evening after the luncheon I simply broke down. I could not survive another night like that. So I went into the garage, got a piece of plywood and 2x4's and cut, ripped, sawed and mitered down to a 2 foot by 4 foot three tiered wood platform. Now the ceramic figures all had two holes in the bottom. So I drilled holes in the platform after careful measurement of where each figure would go and, using my very best cable ties, secured them in place. I was able to secure all the figures except for the shepherd who only had one hole in the bottom. After about an hour of ransacking the garage, I finally came up with a molly bolt for him that I carefully inserted so as not to damage the ceramic. I secured everything except for the manger, Joseph and Mary and the angel. Even so, I slept great that night. Now I don't know about your Nativity scenes but in ours, Jesus does not arrive until the wee hours of the morning on the 25th. Why? Because he hasn't been born yet. So Jesus is quietly and safely tucked away upstairs. It is always a big event when Jesus arrives in the manger. MIL, in fact, has a toy black BMW convertible in which he arrives at her house. Jesus goes in style. Our Nativity scene is quite popular. Even Jasmine and Chloe Bratz have made the pilgrimage multiple times.

Anyway, although I had to face some ridicule from WW for all my work, I was very proud of my construction. Each day I admire it silently so as not to attract more harsh words from WW for my trivial pursuit. So I went home for lunch. WW greets me adoringly with a hug and a kiss, DD1 is playing joyfully and we get ready to eat. She calls DD2. DD2 comes downstairs and stands outside the breakfast room door in tears. I know she has not been feeling well so I go to console her. The first words out of her mouth were "I didn't mean to break it". Even though those were her first words, it took the third iteration for me to actually understand it through her sobs and moans. I ask what. She points in the direction of the Nativity scene.

Okay as I piece this together (her story that is), she and DD1 were playing with some balloons. DD1 batted the balloons and DD2 was backing up to try to catch them, not looking where she was going and…well…do you know what a "snow angel" is? Imagine a Nativity scene angel. That's what happened. It couldn't have been any worse. Gemela found her bawling spread eagle in the dead center of the Nativity scene. I didn't see any of this of course. I am only getting the retold version. The good news is that, because of all my careful planning, quality craftsmanship and hard work, even with all that, the only thing that actually broke was the two ears off the burro and gemela had already glued them back on before I got home. If I had not done all that, DD2 would have had the equivalent of a "strike" in bowling. I shutter to think about it. So now gemela is telling me "you were right – sorry". DD2 has learned her lesson and DD1 learned hers by proxy. And when Jesus finally does arrive in the manger, he'll be none the wiser.

BTW, at lunch gemela asked me why I never secured the stable, Joseph and Mary and the angel. I reminded her that she ridiculed me, told me not to and ssid that I was going over-the-top.

Today she told me I have to do it as soon as I get home tonight.

And I'll sleep even better tonight.

Pio,

What a beautiful Christmas story. I totally agree with Gemela a Nativity scene is vital for the true spirit of Christmas. I bet the burro becomes the second most precious piece of the scene. For years to come you will remember this time.

I just also wanted to mention that I sent you an email Pio.
I know it is not recommended to email each other but
I so badly wanted you to see my beautiful coast. There is something so soothing to the spirit in the photographs on the site.

If anyone else would like to view the photographs maybe Pio will know how to link the site to MB ??

It's late and time for bed. Goodnight TKO

That's a great story Pio.

Nite Beth.

Nite TKO.