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Perhaps you should contact a senior person in the company about this whole thing. If they like your W better than the OM, perhaps recognition that an affair took place would cause them to chit can the OM. Especially if there's any evidence that he was boinking other employees. A messy sitch, no doubt. I suggest that unless one of them leaves, you call it quits. Not worth the aggravation that Mel described. In that case, find a mature woman. I did. It took 18 years of a failed marriage first. You're WAY ahead of me. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> WAT
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ot:
If you want 2 save your M, and your W is waffling about quitting her job, do like WAT suggested and contact the supes or the HR dept at her job and find out what their policy is, if any, regarding affairs between coworkers. She's in the mor senior position? They might be more likely 2 dismiss him than her if it comes down 2 that being policy.
Make it clear that you love your W and want 2 rebuild your M, at least 2 people like that who you expose 2.
Having said that, I'm one of those that Mel talks about when she refers 2 BSs dealing with an unrepentant WS for years. 4.5, 2 be exact.
My W's A was "on again off again" for over 12 years of our 30-yr M. So, her withdrawal, even when it started recently, is going 2 take years more. Is it worth it? Because I've been M'd so long and have 2 kids, I've chosen 2 stay while she wakes up. But would I recommend this 2 others? It's a lot harder than following the MB methods and plans, but I chose 2 do it the way I have precisely because of the length of our M and our involvement with our family.
I would NOT do this if we'd only been M'd a few years and had no kids, though. Not without some immediate and sincere sacrifices from the WS.
Hope that helps some.
-ol' 2long
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Thanks 2long and WAT. WAT her attitude since the "threat" has been that she's very concerned what may happen to me. I'm not really that concerned, though (should I be?? Have other BS's received the same kind of indirect threat??).
Any ideas on how to contact HR? I would guess they will get suspicious if an external party is contacting them re: an A. I don't even know what to say. Before going to HR, I'm going to give counseling some time. Do I want to stay together with her? Not unless she's willing to do something for me first. I've really started to think that I should cut my losses now.
She went to a different counselor today and felt really positive. Apparently, she's willing to help my W find the motivation behind this whole A. The counselor did recommend that she doesn't leave work now... It infuriates me that the counselors go against my word and that she follows it. Guess she has never respected me and never will...
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otill, most counselors are NOT pro-marriage so I am not surprised that she found a counselor who would tell her what she wants to hear. Dr. Harley, on the other hand, is an EXPERIENCED, QUALIFIED counselor who specializes in infidelity. Her IC does not have those credentials. You might want to print up that article I posted from Marriage Builders about ending contact even if she has to end her career or leave the state. Here is the link: Entire article at: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5060_qa.html
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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Hello O, Glad you made it over here. I am still pretty certain that Snakebody was your wife's posts. Anyway...wanted to add some words I borrowed from Bob Pure lately (I presume he doesn't mind...after all I am a fan of Bob Mould which is where he derived his name). The discussion addresses establishing boundaries and thought you'd benefit from it. He indicates he is paraphrasing some of Dobsons words from the book "Love Must Be Tough". I think you should head over to amazon . com and order that book for yourself pronto. BTW, I summarized my boundaries into ONE boundary...it was..."I refuse to remain in a loveless marriage". Good Luck, Mr. Wondering A couple of my favorite Bob Pure Posts on Boundaries including some eloquent Reverse Babble
[color:"blue"] From 6-9-2006:
Just to update, although I MB'ed and did everything I could to make her affair not practical, I made sure the cage door on our marriage was UNLOCKED.
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I learned that WS and new FWS like to be able to claim coercion for them returning to their marriage. This gives them an excuse when angry to not fully participate in the recovery.
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It’s about a BS loving and investing but with ferociously policed boundaries.
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You must be willing to divorce if a short set of boundaries are violated over time.
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My boundaries :
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NC for ever
Total transparency in activity
Protecting me from further hurt in marriage-friendly behaviors
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When Squid violated those soon after coming home I reminded her lovingly that they were my boundaries for working on our marriage, and that she doesn’t have to respect my boundaries, she can leave any time she wants to. I would not stay in a relationship where my reasonable boundaries were not respected.
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See ?
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It defused all kinds of "I'm only here because you made me !" sulks from Squid.
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Pure Bob Mould
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6-9-2006
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Boundaries are OURS not for other people. They are fundamental rules for how we will permit ourselves to be treated by other people. My boundaries were not SQUID'S boundaries.
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When I exposed her affair to OMs GF and that pretty much destroyed any chance of her setting up home with OM she was angry, indolent and embarrassed to be home with me. Foul natured and mean as a viper.
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She was entitled and insisted on attending sporting events overnight at weekends where she expected OM to attend.
I couldn’t stop her, but NC forever was one of my boundaries.
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I told her "Your attending these events is knowingly hurtful to me. I think perhaps you are messed up by events as I am, but please understand this…I will not be hurt deliberately by a person who is in a role of support for me. Please reconsider attending these events. If you want to stay married to me why would you deliberately hurt me? If you do not want to treat me with respect, why stay here? You may leave any time you wish. I will be sad but that is better, perhaps, than you feeling entitled to hurt me, and me being hurt"
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Squid hated that. "I'll do what I dam' well want!". I Turned the sit around "If it was me who had been screwing, say, Lynn over the street how would YOU feel about me spending weekends away with her?" Dave Carder suggests this in 'Torn Asunder'. It worked GREAT for me.
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So it was hard to make my boundaries NOT sound like threats but NEITHER sound like 'wishes'.
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I made sure, calmly, that Squid knew my boundaries. I constantly reinforced what they were to Squid, and pointed out when they were being violated. And I reminded her that I would not tolerate such disrespect for very long.
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Squid improved and started adhering to my boundaries like a sulky child. Now, she respects my boundaries completely.
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And yes, I would have ended my marriage if Squid had persisted in deliberately violating my boundaries. I had the ultimate plan B two phone calls away (a job in another country).
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Summary -
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* be clear as to what your boundaries are. They are not wishes or demands on others. They are unbreakable rules for your treatment in your marriage.
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* if you are not prepared to divorce over your boundaries being violated then do not set them as boundaries.
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* Open the cage door. You should give your spouse two choices - to stay and treat you with respect or to leave and treat you any way she chooses.
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*loving detachment is the only way. Expect your WS to be spiteful and mean. They can be no other way until their head and hearts starts to realign again after withdrawal.
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I hope this helps.
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Pure Bob Mould[/color]
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Hi MrW,
Thanks for your post. It helps to know how to clearly express my boundaries to her. I'll talk to her tonight about what's needed if she really wants to work on this. After I found out 1 month ago, NC has been, supposedly, violated twice (days after the OM came back from vacation and they crossed paths in the hallway and the OM told my W that he had "confessed" to his W; and yesterday when the OM called my W to tell her what I had done to his marriage). But again, I can't trust her, and she had already told me she was going to end it when W had sex with the OM again.
I'll be clear with W again about my boundaries and that it's up to her to either adhere to them or go with the OM.
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OT
If she is foggy is can be helpful to turn the situation around using an anecdote involving someone WW knows. "what if you were me and I did what you ar eproposing to do ? How would you feel?".
Dave Carder in Torn Asunder recommends this and it was devastatingly effective in my case. Squid saw my point of view by proxy.
And no demands, OK ? "leave if you want and I will be sad, but please don't stay if you do not intend to treat me with respect. I have been hurt enough already. I love you and I want to try to recover our marriage, but if having you in my life means I have to let you hurt me, then I can't do that."
All blessings.
MB Alumni
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...OM called my W to tell her what I had done to his marriage... No matter how many times we hear chit like this, it never fails to crack me up. The human mind is an amazing thing. WAT
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Wat I agree. Far as I am from the fear and pain of exposure now, I find it actually FUNNY ( in a sick way) the rampant clueless denial of an active alien abducted WS.
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WAT, my W and I agree totally... When she told me that the OM had called to blame me for what I had done to his M I just told her that it was his choice to look for another woman that damaged his M. She agreed with me completely and also repeated that she owns all her choices, and she's fully responsible for what she's done to our M. She added that she's fully committed to making this work and that's why she's seeking help from various counselors.
I'm not sure whether this is true, or just another ploy to keep using me for whatever reason.
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ot - you're being helped by the best here... I couldn't let this go by without chiming in. ...OM called my W to tell her what I had done to his marriage... OM consistently blamed ME for ruining any chance that he and his W had at reconciliation because I shared the truth with her. (They are divorcing.) There were several gems but my favorite was from a note that OM sent in one of his last gasps to get some attention from WW and cast me as a bad character. "...PLEASE wake up to what MDC did to W and I..." That's my favorite. OM was good for some laughs at the end as he was self-destructing. Sounds like your OM is the same, wacked-out kind of character. Best to you. Hang in there. And be cautiously optimistic of WW's reconciliation overtures. You have to welcome and suspect her at the same time. It's tricky.
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When she told me that the OM had called to blame me for what I had done to his M I just told her that it was his choice to look for another woman that damaged his M. She agreed with me completely and also repeated that she owns all her choices, and she's fully responsible for what she's done to our M. She added that she's fully committed to making this work and that's why she's seeking help from various counselors. I hope she's truly acquired this humility. Sounds good. Keep up your Plan A. Very frequently we see, as MDC related, that one of the infidels shoots themselves in the foot like this and the other infidel thus gains a new perspective. This adds credence to the wisdom that BSs sometimes are money ahead to let the affair self destruct - after exposing, of course. "If you want to hasten its end, don't interfere with it." WAT
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I am otilleb's WIFE and I have been reading all your posts. It hurts to read them, but I have to be mature enough to deal with what I did. The perfect life that I used to have is completely destroyed by my immature and incorrect decisions and actions. I made the biggest mistake of my life becoming a person I am not by falling into temptation and sin. I have the perfect husband, I used to have the perfect marriage, I have the perfect house, the perfect dog, the perfect job, and the perfect relationship with God, etc. Still, I was able to be so weak and stupid to destroy it all. I had never in my life suffered so much. I have now returned to God and to the Church, that I had temporarily abandoned during the affair, and I feel a lot of strength and faith now. It is scary how a person with my background, my education, my religious affiliation, and the love I have for my husband was able to do something so low. With humility I accept my errors, and I really want to get back with my husband because there is no man in this world as exceptional as he is. He is the most caring and loving husband, and a successful, wonderful man who I admire for his achievements and for being a good human being. I am begging for his forgiveness and giving me the opportunity to continue being the wife of the most wonderful man I have ever known, the man that I love, and the man that I am fortunate to call my husband! I love you baby! Your Wife.
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Wow, HG - a very touching and sincere message.
Welcome and please know that the preservation of your marriage has been my (our) focus in communicating with your H.
WAT
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To elaborate a bit on my last statement, we did pose the obvious alternative of cutting his losses. This was based on track records we've seen in many, many cases.
But your humility now tosses that logic aside for me.
I wish you both well.
WAT
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Welcome Honey The perfect life that I used to have is completely destroyed It's NOT completely destroyed yet. Sure the old marriage is over...but you both can successfully build a new and improved "recovered" marriage...TOGETHER. Are you willing to do the hard work necessary to get there??? I hope so. It might be uncomfortable at times...but as WAT said....understand we are all trying to be of assistance to your marriage. Mr. Wondering p.s. - come on...fess up...you had to have been the poster Snakebody that appeared out of nowhere on your husband's Just Found Out thread. Honesty in your marriage and here is an important first step.
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WAT and all, thanks for all your advice and posts. As suggested, I introduced my W (honeygirl) to this website and she just posted a couple of hrs ago. She called me from work, and asked if I'd been to MB recently, I said no, and she asked me to check it out.
She's still debating what to do with work, though. In your experience, how long does it usually take for the WS to leave the workplace? I'm sure the fact that she has a very Sr. position at work is making her decision hard, but I don't know how long to wait for her to understand my boundary.
We haven't heard from the OM either, so we don't know if the OMW will make the OM leave work to save their marriage. I know my W is undergoing a lot of stress "because of the fear to lose me". I can't tell whether this is another lie, or she's being honest, but I suggested that she use her vacation days and the upcoming long holiday weekend to take a break from everything, but me.
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There is no perfection .... if there were, we would not need God in our lives.
perfection is vanity
WELCOME ... to MB
Pep
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Hello again Honeygirl;
You should read...must read...Dorry's Tread entitled "A Recovery Guide for Wayward Spouses". It was just bumped up today. See if it helps you.
Good Luck,
Mr. Wondering
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HG & otilleb - what the heck does that name mean anyway? Not HG - I got that one. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> As for the workplace dilemma, there is no cookie cutter answer. The perfect world, 4.0 MB answer is that NC means NC and that means right now, not tomorrow, don't care who has to change jobs or what career gets ruined. Period. Less than that, is, well, less than that. I will not tell you that if it takes a couple months to sort this out, you're doomed. It's all about risk and as Mel, I think, pointed out earlier on this thread or someone else's thread with similar circumstances, having the OP in the work place is a recipe for agony for the BS IN ADDITION to a real risk for affair relapse. But intuitively, the less time spent in such a sitch, the better. This is not rocket surgery - don't try to make it so. But you two guys are younger than some of my tee shirts, remember? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> You've got THE REST OF YOUR YOUNG LIVES to regroup, including different jobs if need be. It's not like you've got kids in school and have already paid 20 years on a mortgage. Take advantage of your youth and pull up roots if need be. You have to weigh the value of your marriage against the risks inherent in less-than-perfect NC. If it's reasonable to expect that either HG or the scumbag will have to change jobs anyway in a few months, maybe that's worth the risk. If the scumbag keeps making a fool of himself, it ought to be easier for HG to fart in his general direction anytime he comes close vs getting sucked in again. Make sense? Keep talking to us. WAT
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