Most of the statistics that we're talking about here come from the experience of those practicing in counseling for infidelity. Dr. Harley's stats come from his practice; Dr. Pittman's come from 100 cases in his practice. Dr. Glass surveyed a bit over 400 cases.

The notion that most romantic affairs end doesn't necessarily mean they end before the marriage is destroyed. Dr. Harley says most affairs end within two years, but there are definitely affairs that last longer. And there are a few marriages of affairees that actually seem to work out. But how many of these are truly happy? We don't know. They may very well be held together by pride and the refusal to admit error.

Cym,
No, I haven't read the book, but I will go get it tomorrow. Thanks!

Hiker, Exactly! That's why I think my WH will NEVER come back and admit anything. It's his pride and refusal to admit error.

Great post Hiker. I love Private Lies and how Pittman describes people. It gave me a chuckle and a lighthearted look at things when I desperately needed it.

Catgirl and Eav,
I have a thought for you. I have so many times thought "If I had a crystal ball I could handle this so much better. If I only knew if he was coming back I could wait it out. If I only knew if he wasn't coming back I wouldn't expend as much energy on him as I do."

My epiphany was: Yes, but if I knew, I wouldn't have to change. I would stay in my comfort zone and hide. This forces us to change, to seek indpendence, to seek new friends, to reinvent ourselves and become vulnerable again. It is excruiatingly painful and we fight it every step of the way, but the outcome is extraordinary. I feel young again and I am rediscovering myself. I've discovered I'm quite the catch! Apparently nobody knows this yet, but I do! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> I've got a long way to go I know and I STILL think my ExH will be back but I go about my life and make choices as if he isn't. I wonder about a new life for us but I also fantasize about a new life with someone else.

To answer your question, the short of it is YES, some still come back after a long seperation.

Here is a link to Believer's old thread entitled "MB Surprises"

MB Surprises

Thanks, Shattered. I, too, enjoyed Pittman. He takes a hard line on adulterers which leaves no room for excuses. I enjoyed the humor too. I especially liked this quote he found on a wall plaque in a gas station:

Shattered,
That is EXACTLY the way I feel. If I only knew if it was a fling or MLC, I would wait, but how long do I play the fool?

Yes, I have become independent. Actually fixed the lawn mower today! Didn't even know how to start one a few months ago! I lost a lot of weight, pepple are noticing me. That NEVER happened before. So good things are coming from this, just wish I had my H back!

I guess I am hoping, like an idiot, that maybe if we do go through with the D, he'll regret it, and we'll get back together again someday. He needs to change though. I sure have.

I guess I just don't want to start again, yet I don't want to be alone either. Familiarity is what works for me now.

Hiker,
That is too funny!!

catgirl,

If you are confident that the reason your WS won't come back is because he can't admit making a mistake, then try communicating the idea to him that you feel partially responsible for creating the conditions that permitted the affair. Note that I am not saying you should take responsibility for the affair itself, only that your actions may have led to the conditions that allowed your WS to fall into the trap of the affair.

Now this will only work if he really feels he made a mistake but doesn't want to admit it. What all this amounts to is that you are leaving him an out -- taking part of the blame even though you may deserve none of it -- so that he can meet you halfway and come back without swallowing all his pride and admitting he is totally at fault.

If you search through the posts you may be able to find some examples of Plan B letters to wandering spouses. Most of these include some mention by the BS of accepting some responsibility for any marital problems that may have existed prior to the affair. It is a means of reaching out to the WS, but as I say, they must feel somewhere deep inside that they have made a mistake or the whole effort is pointless.

From what I have seen over the years here and other places, it is rare for a WS who has moved in with the OW to come back - especially if the WS in midlife. Typically the OW's in these cases are either much younger or richer. Whether the WS is happy is a different question - I think often he is not. Some of the WS's may move on to other younger wives, but eventually they are too old to attract many young women, unless they are filthy rich. The ones who leave for richer women, such as my husband, stay for the money.

Just two comments:



This is patently untrue. If one spouse is not protecting the marriage, the marriage is not healthy...not good.



This is also wrong.



While I'm sure many do this, I also think many BS refuse to "see" the issues in their marriage until something catastrophic occurs...and sometimes not even then. My W claimed to have no idea I was unhappy after 2 years of me telling and explaining that I was. She claimed not to remember any of it. Had she blown off these concerns as me re-writing marital history, I would've left on d-day.

My wife insists that the affair and our marital problems are unrelated; that she was convinced our marriage was over before the affair ever started. The questions I have asked her were quite simple: If our marital problems were truly bad enough that you wanted a separation and divorce, why didn't you seek that before the affair ever began? Why did you pretend to be satisfied in our marriage for nine months while lying, cheating, and deceiving me about your relationship with another man? Why is it that I never heard the words "divorce" or "separation" from you until I discovered the affair and began pressuring you to stop it?

It is true that some couples do have critical issues which one spouse may refuse to admit, but infidelity by the other spouse is never the solution.

With regard to item #2, you may disagree, but Glass and Pittman clearly state this in their writings. What you view as "protection" could be construed as constant vigilance to guard against infidelity. Do you really believe a couple should have to live together always suspicious of each other, especially in light of the fact that in marriage you have made one of the most solemn promises two people ever make to each other (fidelity)? Dr. Harley is one of the few counselors I have seen who says trust isn't necessary in a marriage. He's correct -- if both spouses can always maintain radical honesty . But there comes a point in every marriage where spouses must rely on one another's committment to each other. That reliance is called trust.

With regard to item #8, I am not sure I understand what you are saying. Were you having an affair and are you saying you forced your wife to admit there were marital problems before you were willing to stop your affair? Was this your method of getting your wife's attention?

This is true and I am not justifying infidelity. In retrospect, you are quite correct...I should've asked for a divorce.

At that point we would've been faced with the same decisions as d-day presented...I would asked for same commitment to change.



You're making the common mistake of assuming YOU must be the one who is constantly watching over your spouse...this is not the case. Each spouse must be fully committed to protecting their own weaknesses.

Additionally, Harley is right about one thing...trust but verify. A marriage must have accountability structures in place that would make infidelity immediately apparent. This would function as a deterrent. I would not consider a marriage that doesn't have these to be "good".

Accountability means giving the keys to your privacy over to your spouse. Allow them to decide how much privacy you are allowed. All areas should be open...bank accounts, internet, phone, journals (yes, journals) if your spouse asks you about them.

An example could be my agreeing to my wife going on vacation without me. I should be able to trust her, but it only makes sense that I be able to get in touch with her, have access to her cell and email accounts and know who she's hanging out with. She should be willing to take extraordinary measure to keep me plugged into her actions and whereabouts.

A marriage is only as good and healthy as the two spouses in it. If one spouse undermines the marriage by failing to protect themselves, the marriage is in trouble...regardless of how it's perceived by the other spouse.

Think of it like termites in a house. Suppose you were the one responsible for calling the exterminator, but you neglected that. Just because your spouse enjoyed living in the house while termites ate away at it doesn't mean your house was healthy. Suddenly, the house falls down and your spouse is wondering what happened.



At that time, that's probably correct. The point is that I was willing to stop the A and work on the marriage again, but only if my wife was also willing to acknowledge that we had work to do. I was willing to change...she needed to be as well.

But let's say I did not have an A. Would I not have the right to ask this same thing of her on the day I decide to divorce?

It was a moment of stark clarity. I was NOT going back to the marriage I had before. It's almost as if the A was an incidental occurrence at that point. The availability of the OW had no bearing on my decision to stay or go.

In truth, if she had refused to acknowledge issues and express a willingness to resolve issues that I had been bringing up repeatedly, I would have left that day...OW or no OW.

Of course you would have the right, but don't you think the A makes all the difference? It's a kind of blackmail; like saying "you better see things my way or I will go back to my lover."


I don't think many couples who have suffered through infidelity imagine they will go back to the marriage they had before. If they are in counseling they realize there are numerous issues that must be resolved. I think most are actually pessimistic that things will ever work out at all, let alone reach whatever level of marital satisfaction that might have existed prior to the affair. The goal is to make the marriage better than it has ever been; the best it can ever be.


That is what my wife is saying. It is demonstrably false in my case.



Then why didn't you go before the A occurred?

Sounds an awful lot like the SALT II talks concerning the nuclear weapons of the USSR and the US.

I like the idea of setting your own boundaries and having enough self-respect and self-discipline to adhere to them, rather then relying on the knowledge that I can't cheat because I know my spouse is watching me too carefully.

This is a good question with a very long answer...but I'll try to condense.

I was suffering from depression induced by a major life upheaval. It caused me to question the very foundations of my chosen morality. My value system was in total flux.

In all of this, my wife made light of my issues and problems. I was not withdrawn...I was very vocal about how I felt like she was abandoning me and how I felt very alone.

I eventually convinced myself that my wife was somehow an emotional invalid and incapable of supporting me through all this.

Enter the OW, who was very supportive. I enjoyed her company immensely.

I never considered leaving my family. I was committed to being a father and a husband insomuch as my W would let me.

So, I had an epiphany (don't forget the crippled value system).

If the OW could meet some of these needs that I could get from my wife, that would take the pressure off the marriage and I could continue supporting my kids and wife without a complete meltdown (the thought at the time)

I rationalized that the affair was a way for me to stay married. Sounds bizarre, but it's true.

So, to answer your original question succinctly...I didn't leave or divorce because, at the time, the affair looked like a win-win for everyone by comparison.

You see, I'm one of those folks who believed the affair actually was helping my marriage by helping me...and it did for a while. My wife would admit that I was a happier, more pleasant person to live with. Personally, I felt more involved with them than I ever had been before. I'm one of those people who would have continued the A indefinitely had I not been caught.

The real irony? I NEVER thought of leaving my marriage until d-day, when I was faced with having to decide if wanted to recover. In that moment, I could have made the choice to leave...a choice I didn't have the strength to make a few months before.

Sounds romantic...but I'm here to tell that there are life events that can crush both your self-respect and your self-discipline. One example...losing a child.

When/If those occur, the knowledge that you would get caught and you'd hurt your wife might be all that saves you.

I appreciate your candor. This is a good example of how an affair can be made to seem to be a reasonable course of action.


I don't doubt that for a second. All I am saying is that one's principal motivation for being faithful in a marital relationship shouldn't depend on the fear of being discovered by your ever-vigilant spouse.

Hiker,
I told my WH that I wasn't perfect. That I did some things wrong in our M. That I would be willing to work on it. Guess it didn't faze him.

LO,
I think that is exactly why my WH had his A. She's not rich, so she was meeting needs that I wasn't. He wasn't happy for whatever reasons, and she was there to provide that happiness and listen to all his problems. He could have come to me though.

He says that the A isn't the reason why our M is done. No, probably not, but it didn't help the situation. If he was done, then he should have D'd me first, not have an A! OW was having problems with her M too, so I guess they felt that they could vent to each other on how their spouses were bitc***.

She stroked his ego and I guess at the time, tha's what he needed.

I think my WH is like you. He felt that the A was helping him. I don't think he had any intention of ending the M or he would have done so. He was getting the best of both worlds. He told me this was a trial sep., him moving out. I believed him, as he said they were only friends. And the whole time he was living with OW.

Had he not been caught, he could have pulled it off, I'm sure.

I ruined his plan.

Low - then did you consider your A to be a romantic A.

I ask because there seems to be some similarity between your A and my FWW's A.

My FWW has said to me, that if she did not have the A we would have been D long ago. I don't know if I believe that or not. But you seem to be saying that would be the case in your M. (Maybe not exactly that, but I assume in all the time you were telling your S how unhappy you were that you mentioned the D).

I also believe that my FWW would have continued the A indefinately. But she also claims she did not start the A until after she had concluded that our M was over. Again, I have my doubts about that. I think she gained the strength to leave the M during the A. Can you say more about not having the strength before. What do you mean by this. Was it self-esteem. Was it the certainty that there was someone else you could have an R with?

Finally, and this is where it seems my FWW and you differ, my FWW seems to have an incredibly hard time letting the A life go. Did you struggle with that? I think much of her subsequent breaking of NC has to do with not wanting to hurt OM's feeling. Did you not have any problem breaking off the A? I think much of her indecision comes from developing a habit of the A life and getting out of practice with an M life. Also, even though I've made the changes that she seems to have wanted, I don't think they matter to her anymore and I don't think she really believes the changes will be permanent.

As a FWS, did you struggle with any of that. Why did you believe it would be any different with your BS. Did you have a time table to see if the changes would stick?

Catgirl,

Honestly, I don't think it's time for you to throw in the towel yet. Pittman says of all divorces, the overwhelming majority involve infidelity of some sort. Less than 20% of divorces result from issues other than infidelity. That's because very few people are emotionally prepared to leave their spouse unless they have someone else to run to.

If I were you, I wouldn't believe your WS's contention that the affair isn't the reason your marriage is done. Try to remember that people engaged in romantic affairs are driven by emotion, not reason. Your husband wants you to believe the marriage problems and the affair are unrelated, just as my wife does. It takes some of the guilt away for having the affair and puts it on you or the marriage itself. The proof that the marriage wasn't bad enough to seek a divorce in evident in the fact that he didn't seek a separation or divorce until after the affair began. He has someone to lean on and it now seems a lot easier for him to leave you.

But once you are out of the picture the other woman better do a darn good job of meeting his emotional needs or he will soon begin having doubts about leaving you. Maybe she will and maybe she won't, but the experts say the smart money would be bet against her.

Hiker,

I hope you are right in the fact that she doesn't meet all of his needs and he dumps her. But by then, I might not be waiting for him. He's had the chance to let her go. I told him the reason why we are D'ing is because of the A. He didn't break it off.

I think he wants her now more than ever because he knows he is losing me to the D, so he has her to fall back on.

She is almost half his age. What the he** does he want to get involved with her for, is beyong me. She's not even D'd from her H yet and not sure if she plans to in the near future. I talked to her H, and he said he's not D'ing her first, can't afford it.