Over the course of the last four months I have read everything I could get my hands on about adulterous affairs. Among the best materials are Dr. Frank Pittman’s Private Lies, Dr. Shirley Glass’ Not Just Friends, and all the books by Dr. Willard Harley. I have tried to synthesize the best of these explanations of the pathology of an affair.

There are many different types of affairs, but this post will deal with the “romantic” type. In this type of affair, the wandering spouse (WS) has crossed a boundary and “fallen in love” with an affair partner (OP, other person). What makes this affair so difficult to deal with is that it is emotionally driven. The “in love” state is often so powerful that the WS may be willing to sacrifice the marriage and just about everything else to pursue it.

You have probably heard about or known a teenager who has been told that the person they are dating and in love with is using him or her or is demonstrably bad for them. Have you ever seen such a person take anyone’s advice and stop seeing this lover? It’s rare, because one’s emotions corrupt any attempt at clear thinking. This is what happens in romantic affairs. It is a powerful fantasy relationship in which the partners may idealize each other and bond in a way that makes everything else in their lives seem insignificant by comparison. If your spouse is engaged in a romantic affair and agrees to break it off, you are extremely lucky.

What can you do when you discover that your spouse is engaged in a romantic affair? Well, according to Pittman:

“I advise spouse’s who are waiting for their mate’s romance to end: don’t try to out-romance a romantic. Don’t bother to arouse jealousy. Don’t try to get your partner’s attention, increase your partner’s guilt, or threaten some kind of unpleasantness. Just express your point of view and then go off and do whatever holds you together during this time.”

Glass offers no solution to the WS who refuses to stop the affair.

Only Dr. Harley offers a plan for dealing with a spouse who is unwilling to stop the affair (see Plan A and Plan B on the MB website). But even Dr. Harley acknowledges that affairs of this nature are extremely difficult to break. Most will have to “burn out,” that is, they run their course until the romance fades and reality intrudes to destroy the fantasy. Unfortunately, this very often doesn’t happen until a lengthy separation occurs, or in some cases, after a divorce.

Here are some things to consider:

1. The affair is not your fault. No matter what the state of the marriage prior to the affair, no one forces the WS to have the affair, and having the affair is clearly not a solution to marital problems.

2. It is a myth that affairs don’t occur in good marriages. People in good marriages have affairs all the time. You probably know someone who loves their wife or husband and claims to have a good marriage, but still can’t turn down an opportunity for a sexual encounter with someone else. This is especially true of philandering men.

3. Don’t take the affair personally. This is not a rejection of you; this is simply a bad choice by your partner who most likely tried to hide the affair from you because they didn’t want to lose you.

4. The OP is not necessarily more attractive or sexier than the betrayed spouse (BS). Most of the time the affair partner is no better in bed than the BS, it’s just that the intense emotional involvement makes it seem so, especially for women. Also, the OP is often chosen more for his/her incompatibility with the WS than for any similarities; the greater the differences, the more intense the relationship.

5. Not all affairs result in divorce. Most statistics indicate that, of couples who seek counseling for having marital problems due to an affair, between 80 and 85% reconcile. In Pittman’s experience, most of the couples who divorced after an affair did so because of the steadfast refusal of the WS to stop the affair.

6. Nearly all affairs end, usually within two years or less. Even when the affairees marry each other, only 25% of them are still together after 5 years. Pittman found that five years after the revelation of an affair, most WSs were back with their marriage partner.

7. In romantic affairs, it is usually a waste of time to try to talk the WS into stopping the affair, working on the marriage, or getting counseling. But it won’t hurt to try once or twice when you first uncover the affair. Don’t expect the WS be sensible or practical.

8. Although it goes against Dr. Harley’s advice, it may be a bad idea to assume responsibility for marital problems at the time of discovery of a romantic affair. That’s because the WS is looking for justification for the affair and by assuming responsibility for any marital problems, real or imagined, you are inadvertently giving your spouse an excuse for his/her actions. No attempt to solve marital problems will work while the affair continues. Stop the affair first, then talk about marital problems and their solution.

9. Don’t beg for a second chance or promise to change in an attempt to persuade your WS to stop the affair or prevent separation or divorce. This doesn’t work. Don’t allow what love your WS has for you to be turned into pity. Keep a bold front, even if it is only a façade and you are crumbling inside.

10. It is the WS who most often files for divorce. Interestingly, there is almost always a point when the WS makes an attempt to return to the BS, even after the divorce occurs.

11. Don’t be surprised if your WS claims all sorts of marital problems that you had no idea existed. The creation and/or gross exaggeration of marital problems is part of the process of transferring guilt of the affair to you or the marriage. It is an attempt to rationalize what cannot be excused.

12. If your WS has had multiple romantic affairs, it may be that they are in love with the idea of being in love. These people are very often not suitable for marriage and will bounce from relationship to relationship until their dying day. You may want to bail out of this marriage or be prepared to spend a lot of money on a psychiatrist.

13. Although you may be desirous of saving your marriage, it is best to prepare for the worst. Seek legal advice about your possible divorce and custody issues. Do whatever is necessary to prevent the WS from destroying your financial resources along with your marriage.

For those of you looking for quick and easy solutions, there are none. Dr. Harley recommends exposure as a method of accelerating the demise of an affair, but generally speaking, there are three possible outcomes even if you follow Dr. Harley’s Plan A/B:

A. The affair continues, a divorce ensues, and the affairees live together happily ever after. (This is very rare.)

B. The affair continues for a time after discovery, the affairees eventually break up, but either the WS or BS or both refuse to reconcile. (The probability of this occurring seems to be directly proportional to the length of the affair.)

C. The affair continues for a time after discovery, the affairees eventually break up, the WS and BS reconcile. (The probability of this occurring seems to be inversely proportional to the length of the affair.)

I hope this helps some of you who arrive daily on this forum. There are a lot of good folks here offering fine advice, most of them, like me, from firsthand experience. My own case seems to be headed for divorce despite my efforts, but perhaps your luck will be better.

Great post! Be sure to include it in Longhorn's post for newbies on the Just Found Out forum.

Thanks for sharing it.

Thanks. It seems as though the best remedy for the pain of dealing with my wife's affair is in trying to help someone else get through their own suffering.

Thanks Hiker for your post. It was great!

I too am headed for D. Filed last month.

WH shows no remorse whatsoever. How could he? He still hasn't admitted A to me. Says they are "just friends" even though they are living together! He seems happy. I think he will fall into your category A.

Some days I just want to get the D over with, and other days I wonder what have I done by filing? Is it the right thing to do for the kids sake?

Family and friends have told me I'd be a total fool to take him back after all the he** he's put me and the kids through. They are probably right, but as sick as it is, I still love him.

I must be CRAZY!!!

Catgirl,

You're not crazy. We don't stop loving someone just because they do us wrong. Letting go of our love for a spouse can be a long and painful process. In my experience, the only time you ever fully get over losing the person you love is when you find someone else.

Still, it's best to take the time to heal on your own, work on improving yourself, seeking and finding peace and happiness within yourself, and coming to grips with the possibility of having to spend your life alone, all the while hoping someday to find someone with which you can share your life.

I understand how you feel. There are days when I wish that I never had to see or hear from my wife ever again, and there are days when I miss her love so badly I can barely stifle my tears.

Incidentally, Dr. Shirley Glass does a fine job of explaining why a WS would choose loving the OP over the BS. A romantic affair is a Stage I love relationship. In Stage I, the participants share an idealized love. They project all the best traits they desire in a lover on the other person and this fantasy evokes strong emotions which drive the affair. On the other hand, your relationship with your spouse has settled into Stage II conditions. Stage II is a much more mature love that is reality-based. In Stage II you know and are aware of your spouse's faults but you love them anyway.

Wandering spouses are comparing their Stage I affair with their Stage II marriage and are letting their emotions override any reason or practical considerations. Of course, Stage I cannot be sustained. Reality eventually destroys the fantasy, which is why almost all affairs burn out even without outside interference.

hiker

i'm not sure if your post made me feel better or worse..i guess reality is just that......some of each

i'm not sure my H affair is ever going to end

I dont think my WH A will ever end either.

People are telling me it won't last, OW is 17 yrs. younger, but it seems like he's happy and welcomes our upcoming D.

Wish I knew what his plans were!

catgirl,

how long has his affair been going on and how long have you been separated?

my H says he is happy, is over our relationship, and has moved on with his life...he would hca filed for divorce already if he could afford to!

Not quite sure how long the PA has been going on. I'd say about 6-7 months. Now that they are living together, it is a full blown PA. Before it was sneaky, get it when they could. No more hiding it anymore. The whole A (EA), started I believe, last fall.

We've been separated 3 months. I filed last month.

Honestly my WH never said he was hpapy or not. Did mention to my DD though, that he was. I don't even want to ask. As I said, he still tells me they are "just friends", but come on, they are living together and sleeping together. Does he think I'm that dumb!!!???

I really had a hard time filing. Never wanted my kids to go through it all and be a statistic. He just lied to me for months and months that at the time I felt it waa the right thing to do. He has yet to show remorse. Guess he can't if he won't even admit the A!

Some days I think I did the right thing, other days I wish I would have waited and maybe he would have come around. Too many questions...

....did you plan A?

Yeah, I think I did a pretty good plan A. Thought it was working, but then I found out that WH moved OW in with him. So guess it didn't work after all.

I exposed to everyone I knew. No impact.

Hi to you all,

I don't post here much anymore but do lurk from time to time.

I was very interested in this post as my husband fell in love with the OW and has lived with her for some months now.

There seems no end to their affair,from what I here from other people, as myself and the children are in plan B.

I do wonder though how the researchers come up with these statistics because I am no longer convinced that most affairs end.

My divorce will be final in a couple of weeks and my STBXH has never shown any remorse or ever hinted that he has done the wrong thing.

I am past the stage of ever wanting him back, I have a new life now and have very tentatively started dating but do wonder if anyones WS affairs have ended say after one or two years and then they have wanted to return.

I haven't seen much of that on the MB's site unless I am missing it, could anyone give me their opinion as I would be really interested.

miffy1

miffy

i wonder the same things since my H has lived with OW for just over a year! i'm waiting to read the responses that you get

Me too!

I don't believe the A's die out as everyone says. I've heard the fantasy will end, reality will set in etc. Doesn't seem like that's happening for WH and OW. The've been living together now for 3 mos. He won't even admit the A, so how can he show remorse?!

It seems like WH's A will never end!

i fear that reality HAS set in and they are now living as we did...like man and wife sharing everyday responsibilities and joys

and they are still happy

truth be told...this is probably my greatest fear right now because i have so hoped that when reality set in...one of them would realize they had made a mistake and end the affair

oh...and it helps a bunch that just today on another site like this most everyone told me that if my H has been gone this long...he's never coming back....i'm having a major set back from that

Eav and Cat,

I,too,lurk on other sites and this is why I now doubt the validity of these studies.

I have yet to find anyone who's WH has embarked on a romantic affair and then returned to the marriage partner.

I would love to be proved wrong so if anyone can I would love to hear from them.

eav & catgirl,

I must confess that I am not intimately familiar with the details of your situations.However, is there any part of this drama that you have inadvertently played, such as giving your WS the idea that regardless of their actions, you will be there forever?

A three legged stool is absolutely the strongest and enduring of all chairs. Make sure that you are not one of the legs.

cymanca

THAT is a definite YES from me

I can't say for sure if he's living in fantasy or reality, but the A doesn't seem to be over.

I know there are tons of people here on this site that have had A's and went back to their M. Just wish I could say my WH was one of them, and hope he realizes that he made a mistake before the D is final.

That is my hope.

Plus WH is too proud to admit he ever did anything wrong. So that could very well be keeping him from returning to M. His pride. He's perfect in his eyes. Never makes a mistake.

Catgirl,

My STBXH is exactly the same,he will never admit he has made a mistake so I have prepared myself for a life without him.

I have no idea what else to do.

Cymanca,

I have to say probably not. I always told him from the beginning of our M, that if he ever had an A, it would be over. I put up with his lies, sneaking etc. for months, thinking they were only friends. When I did find out it was sexual, that did it for me. Guess I didn't want to be made a fool anymore.

Guess that was a mistake I made.

my H and i did attempt reconciliation when i first discovered the affair

we worked hard on reconciliation for 8 months....he wrote me beautiful poems about how much he loved me and why he did, he bought me cards, flowers, and gifts...and he was as kind, caring and wonderful as anyone could want....

however, he just wanted me to forgive and forget...and i was trying! there were good and bad moments and i wish i had known how to deal with things better but i was dealing with things the way i now know everyone does...he seemed to think that i hated him though and would never forgive him

he said he couldn't live with that and started contacting OW again....after he left, he talked about reconciling for a year but each time we talked he came back to saying that he couldn't live with me knwing what he did...that he believed i would never love him again like i did or forgive him completely...he said it would be easier to move on and start over with someone else than it would be to live with someone who hated him

he said when he looks in my eyes it's like a mirror and all he can see is the pain that he put in my heart and he can't live with that

i don't think he believes it's possible for us to have a good, or better marraige so he won't even try

but maybe i'm wrong and he just doesn't want it

catgirl,

What BS's say and what BS's do are often complete opposites.

When is the last contact you had from WS either directly or indirectly? Did you say or do ANYTHING that conveyed the message that you are happy and going on with your life? And have you been portraying this independence for more than a day, a week, or a month?

" Guess that was a mistake I made"

That seems to imply that you are willing to be seen as a fool. C'mon, you have more self pride than that.

i have been in plan B for awhile...but continued e-mail contact

at Jennifer Harley's advice, i made several guestures to help him (she called it "putting out the hand") to show that i would be willing and able to start again....and of course my plan b letter said this

but about 2 months ago....after some hateful, hurtful messages and e-mails from both him and OW i had all my numbers changed

and last week i followed through on his request to have him removed from my health insurance

at this point...i'm also considering a move to another state...back to our "home" state but have not had any responses yet to the job inquiries i made just last week

there's nothing more i can do to give the message that i'm moving on

he lives and hour away, doesn't see or talk to me or anyone i know (including family)...so he has absolutey no idea if i'm even dead or alive

as if he would even care

Eav,
That is exactly why I think WS will never come back. Even though he hasn't admitted it to me, I'm sure he knows how much he's hurt me and the kids. I don't think he could ever live with me again knowing that he thinks I would hate him and never forgive him.

He never liked to deal with things in life. I'm sure he too thinks it's just easier for all, that he move on. Easier for him, as he won't have to admit what he did!

I had contact wiith WH the other day via email. It was realted to the kids. I was cordial. Didn't really say I was happy of was moving on. Told him I had errands to run etc., but that was it.

When he does come here to take the kids, I always look good and tell him I am going out while he has the kids. Even if I'm not. I want him to think I have a life!

I find it hard to be in plan B while going through a D. What's the point? In his eyes it's over.

eav,

Sounds like positive and prudent steps that you are taking for your future. I applaud any efforts that reinforce the fact that we are 100% responsible for our lives and especially who is a part of our lives.

How much calmer is your life knowing that YOU control who and when anyone contacts you?????

catgirl

i don't really know your situation but i wonder...have you asked others here if it is too soon for you to have filed for divorce? was your plan A long enough? Did you plan B for awhile WITHOUT filing for D at the same time?

catgirl,

You are absolutely correct that if your WS wants out, there is nothing that you can do to change him.

Quite contrary, when in Plan D , Plan B is as easy as breathing. It should take hardly any effort at all on your part. Please reread what the stated goals of a Plan B are.

You sound beaten up and depressed with a good dash of self pity. We have all been there. That is what MB is all about.
When you feel like 2 lbs of cr#p in a one pound bag, come here. Do your reading and then go out and start your living again.

No one, and I mean no one, is attracted to a person that gives off the vibes that most BS's and their clothes reek of.

Eav,
Yeah I probably filed too soon. Guess I just had enough emotionally that I wanted to end the pain. I guess I could withdraw the petition, but H appears happy that D is going through. I would look like a total fool to withdraw the petition. Guess I have some pride left.

I really didn't do a solid plan B. I filed D first. That was a mistake, I now know.

Cym,
I know Plan B is to try and get OW to meet all of WH's needs and eventually try to reconcile, but if WH knows I filed, why would he even try to reconcile? Waht kind of PBL would I send? He'd laugh at it! Say it was too late. Should have thought of it before I filed.

i would still withdraw the filing if you do not really want to end your marriage...who cares what he thinks about it!

it just seems early for that decison and it sounds as though you are willing to reconcile

cat,


Oh my,my,my. You are understanding a smidgen of what Plan B 's objectives are. The MAIN purpose of Plan B is to give the BS back their life. If that includes the WS, then that will be by the sole choice of the BS.

The WS may laugh at you(BWGASA), but he will darn well have to respect the fact that you are taking charge of your own life. If you do not want to D, vacate your filing. If he asks smirkingly why? tell him that you refuse to do his dirty work for him. He says he wants the OW, he says he needs the OW , he says he is a soulmate to the OW, then have HIM do what it takes to accomplish his "dreams".

Some days I am willing to reconcile, other days I'm not.


The question is, does he want to? I doubt it. I haven't asked him outright. Guess I don't want him to think I'm an idiot for now asking this after I filed. You are right, I shouldn't care what he thinks, but I do. When I do see him, I try and show him I am very strong and know what I want in my life. This would show me as a waffler.

I gave him many chances to talk to me about the A, to end the A, etc. He didn't. So that tells me he wants to D.

He told me when he moved out that it was a trial sep. Well the trial sep. ended up with him moving OW in. So I think he was just hanging me on to see if it worked out with her or not.

cat

it's still early in this situation......he's not ready YET

Hiker,

Thanks for the post. You have helped many who come here willing to learn.

Keep up the good work.....excellent post!

Mahalo,
L.

Yeah, I 've heard people tell me this is just a fling for him, a MLC, it won't last, he doesn't know what he wants, etc. etc. He seems pretty confident when we talk though. He could have asked me to withdraw the D, if he really wanted me. I think he wants her.

cat & eav,

Have you read

Hope for Couples in Crisis

i've had the book "love must be tough" out from the library for 20 renewals! i just tried to renew it this weekend and they said i had to return it cause i had reached to max time....

i read it but i didn't "get it" intime i guess

Outstanding link... Thank you. Good to have some faith-based truth from another site.
<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />


sbmmal

Most of the statistics that we're talking about here come from the experience of those practicing in counseling for infidelity. Dr. Harley's stats come from his practice; Dr. Pittman's come from 100 cases in his practice. Dr. Glass surveyed a bit over 400 cases.

The notion that most romantic affairs end doesn't necessarily mean they end before the marriage is destroyed. Dr. Harley says most affairs end within two years, but there are definitely affairs that last longer. And there are a few marriages of affairees that actually seem to work out. But how many of these are truly happy? We don't know. They may very well be held together by pride and the refusal to admit error.

Cym,
No, I haven't read the book, but I will go get it tomorrow. Thanks!

Hiker, Exactly! That's why I think my WH will NEVER come back and admit anything. It's his pride and refusal to admit error.

Great post Hiker. I love Private Lies and how Pittman describes people. It gave me a chuckle and a lighthearted look at things when I desperately needed it.

Catgirl and Eav,
I have a thought for you. I have so many times thought "If I had a crystal ball I could handle this so much better. If I only knew if he was coming back I could wait it out. If I only knew if he wasn't coming back I wouldn't expend as much energy on him as I do."

My epiphany was: Yes, but if I knew, I wouldn't have to change. I would stay in my comfort zone and hide. This forces us to change, to seek indpendence, to seek new friends, to reinvent ourselves and become vulnerable again. It is excruiatingly painful and we fight it every step of the way, but the outcome is extraordinary. I feel young again and I am rediscovering myself. I've discovered I'm quite the catch! Apparently nobody knows this yet, but I do! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> I've got a long way to go I know and I STILL think my ExH will be back but I go about my life and make choices as if he isn't. I wonder about a new life for us but I also fantasize about a new life with someone else.

To answer your question, the short of it is YES, some still come back after a long seperation.

Here is a link to Believer's old thread entitled "MB Surprises"

MB Surprises

Thanks, Shattered. I, too, enjoyed Pittman. He takes a hard line on adulterers which leaves no room for excuses. I enjoyed the humor too. I especially liked this quote he found on a wall plaque in a gas station:

Shattered,
That is EXACTLY the way I feel. If I only knew if it was a fling or MLC, I would wait, but how long do I play the fool?

Yes, I have become independent. Actually fixed the lawn mower today! Didn't even know how to start one a few months ago! I lost a lot of weight, pepple are noticing me. That NEVER happened before. So good things are coming from this, just wish I had my H back!

I guess I am hoping, like an idiot, that maybe if we do go through with the D, he'll regret it, and we'll get back together again someday. He needs to change though. I sure have.

I guess I just don't want to start again, yet I don't want to be alone either. Familiarity is what works for me now.

Hiker,
That is too funny!!

catgirl,

If you are confident that the reason your WS won't come back is because he can't admit making a mistake, then try communicating the idea to him that you feel partially responsible for creating the conditions that permitted the affair. Note that I am not saying you should take responsibility for the affair itself, only that your actions may have led to the conditions that allowed your WS to fall into the trap of the affair.

Now this will only work if he really feels he made a mistake but doesn't want to admit it. What all this amounts to is that you are leaving him an out -- taking part of the blame even though you may deserve none of it -- so that he can meet you halfway and come back without swallowing all his pride and admitting he is totally at fault.

If you search through the posts you may be able to find some examples of Plan B letters to wandering spouses. Most of these include some mention by the BS of accepting some responsibility for any marital problems that may have existed prior to the affair. It is a means of reaching out to the WS, but as I say, they must feel somewhere deep inside that they have made a mistake or the whole effort is pointless.

From what I have seen over the years here and other places, it is rare for a WS who has moved in with the OW to come back - especially if the WS in midlife. Typically the OW's in these cases are either much younger or richer. Whether the WS is happy is a different question - I think often he is not. Some of the WS's may move on to other younger wives, but eventually they are too old to attract many young women, unless they are filthy rich. The ones who leave for richer women, such as my husband, stay for the money.

Just two comments:



This is patently untrue. If one spouse is not protecting the marriage, the marriage is not healthy...not good.



This is also wrong.



While I'm sure many do this, I also think many BS refuse to "see" the issues in their marriage until something catastrophic occurs...and sometimes not even then. My W claimed to have no idea I was unhappy after 2 years of me telling and explaining that I was. She claimed not to remember any of it. Had she blown off these concerns as me re-writing marital history, I would've left on d-day.

My wife insists that the affair and our marital problems are unrelated; that she was convinced our marriage was over before the affair ever started. The questions I have asked her were quite simple: If our marital problems were truly bad enough that you wanted a separation and divorce, why didn't you seek that before the affair ever began? Why did you pretend to be satisfied in our marriage for nine months while lying, cheating, and deceiving me about your relationship with another man? Why is it that I never heard the words "divorce" or "separation" from you until I discovered the affair and began pressuring you to stop it?

It is true that some couples do have critical issues which one spouse may refuse to admit, but infidelity by the other spouse is never the solution.

With regard to item #2, you may disagree, but Glass and Pittman clearly state this in their writings. What you view as "protection" could be construed as constant vigilance to guard against infidelity. Do you really believe a couple should have to live together always suspicious of each other, especially in light of the fact that in marriage you have made one of the most solemn promises two people ever make to each other (fidelity)? Dr. Harley is one of the few counselors I have seen who says trust isn't necessary in a marriage. He's correct -- if both spouses can always maintain radical honesty . But there comes a point in every marriage where spouses must rely on one another's committment to each other. That reliance is called trust.

With regard to item #8, I am not sure I understand what you are saying. Were you having an affair and are you saying you forced your wife to admit there were marital problems before you were willing to stop your affair? Was this your method of getting your wife's attention?

This is true and I am not justifying infidelity. In retrospect, you are quite correct...I should've asked for a divorce.

At that point we would've been faced with the same decisions as d-day presented...I would asked for same commitment to change.



You're making the common mistake of assuming YOU must be the one who is constantly watching over your spouse...this is not the case. Each spouse must be fully committed to protecting their own weaknesses.

Additionally, Harley is right about one thing...trust but verify. A marriage must have accountability structures in place that would make infidelity immediately apparent. This would function as a deterrent. I would not consider a marriage that doesn't have these to be "good".

Accountability means giving the keys to your privacy over to your spouse. Allow them to decide how much privacy you are allowed. All areas should be open...bank accounts, internet, phone, journals (yes, journals) if your spouse asks you about them.

An example could be my agreeing to my wife going on vacation without me. I should be able to trust her, but it only makes sense that I be able to get in touch with her, have access to her cell and email accounts and know who she's hanging out with. She should be willing to take extraordinary measure to keep me plugged into her actions and whereabouts.

A marriage is only as good and healthy as the two spouses in it. If one spouse undermines the marriage by failing to protect themselves, the marriage is in trouble...regardless of how it's perceived by the other spouse.

Think of it like termites in a house. Suppose you were the one responsible for calling the exterminator, but you neglected that. Just because your spouse enjoyed living in the house while termites ate away at it doesn't mean your house was healthy. Suddenly, the house falls down and your spouse is wondering what happened.



At that time, that's probably correct. The point is that I was willing to stop the A and work on the marriage again, but only if my wife was also willing to acknowledge that we had work to do. I was willing to change...she needed to be as well.

But let's say I did not have an A. Would I not have the right to ask this same thing of her on the day I decide to divorce?

It was a moment of stark clarity. I was NOT going back to the marriage I had before. It's almost as if the A was an incidental occurrence at that point. The availability of the OW had no bearing on my decision to stay or go.

In truth, if she had refused to acknowledge issues and express a willingness to resolve issues that I had been bringing up repeatedly, I would have left that day...OW or no OW.

Of course you would have the right, but don't you think the A makes all the difference? It's a kind of blackmail; like saying "you better see things my way or I will go back to my lover."


I don't think many couples who have suffered through infidelity imagine they will go back to the marriage they had before. If they are in counseling they realize there are numerous issues that must be resolved. I think most are actually pessimistic that things will ever work out at all, let alone reach whatever level of marital satisfaction that might have existed prior to the affair. The goal is to make the marriage better than it has ever been; the best it can ever be.


That is what my wife is saying. It is demonstrably false in my case.



Then why didn't you go before the A occurred?

Sounds an awful lot like the SALT II talks concerning the nuclear weapons of the USSR and the US.

I like the idea of setting your own boundaries and having enough self-respect and self-discipline to adhere to them, rather then relying on the knowledge that I can't cheat because I know my spouse is watching me too carefully.

This is a good question with a very long answer...but I'll try to condense.

I was suffering from depression induced by a major life upheaval. It caused me to question the very foundations of my chosen morality. My value system was in total flux.

In all of this, my wife made light of my issues and problems. I was not withdrawn...I was very vocal about how I felt like she was abandoning me and how I felt very alone.

I eventually convinced myself that my wife was somehow an emotional invalid and incapable of supporting me through all this.

Enter the OW, who was very supportive. I enjoyed her company immensely.

I never considered leaving my family. I was committed to being a father and a husband insomuch as my W would let me.

So, I had an epiphany (don't forget the crippled value system).

If the OW could meet some of these needs that I could get from my wife, that would take the pressure off the marriage and I could continue supporting my kids and wife without a complete meltdown (the thought at the time)

I rationalized that the affair was a way for me to stay married. Sounds bizarre, but it's true.

So, to answer your original question succinctly...I didn't leave or divorce because, at the time, the affair looked like a win-win for everyone by comparison.

You see, I'm one of those folks who believed the affair actually was helping my marriage by helping me...and it did for a while. My wife would admit that I was a happier, more pleasant person to live with. Personally, I felt more involved with them than I ever had been before. I'm one of those people who would have continued the A indefinitely had I not been caught.

The real irony? I NEVER thought of leaving my marriage until d-day, when I was faced with having to decide if wanted to recover. In that moment, I could have made the choice to leave...a choice I didn't have the strength to make a few months before.

Sounds romantic...but I'm here to tell that there are life events that can crush both your self-respect and your self-discipline. One example...losing a child.

When/If those occur, the knowledge that you would get caught and you'd hurt your wife might be all that saves you.

I appreciate your candor. This is a good example of how an affair can be made to seem to be a reasonable course of action.


I don't doubt that for a second. All I am saying is that one's principal motivation for being faithful in a marital relationship shouldn't depend on the fear of being discovered by your ever-vigilant spouse.

Hiker,
I told my WH that I wasn't perfect. That I did some things wrong in our M. That I would be willing to work on it. Guess it didn't faze him.

LO,
I think that is exactly why my WH had his A. She's not rich, so she was meeting needs that I wasn't. He wasn't happy for whatever reasons, and she was there to provide that happiness and listen to all his problems. He could have come to me though.

He says that the A isn't the reason why our M is done. No, probably not, but it didn't help the situation. If he was done, then he should have D'd me first, not have an A! OW was having problems with her M too, so I guess they felt that they could vent to each other on how their spouses were bitc***.

She stroked his ego and I guess at the time, tha's what he needed.

I think my WH is like you. He felt that the A was helping him. I don't think he had any intention of ending the M or he would have done so. He was getting the best of both worlds. He told me this was a trial sep., him moving out. I believed him, as he said they were only friends. And the whole time he was living with OW.

Had he not been caught, he could have pulled it off, I'm sure.

I ruined his plan.

Low - then did you consider your A to be a romantic A.

I ask because there seems to be some similarity between your A and my FWW's A.

My FWW has said to me, that if she did not have the A we would have been D long ago. I don't know if I believe that or not. But you seem to be saying that would be the case in your M. (Maybe not exactly that, but I assume in all the time you were telling your S how unhappy you were that you mentioned the D).

I also believe that my FWW would have continued the A indefinately. But she also claims she did not start the A until after she had concluded that our M was over. Again, I have my doubts about that. I think she gained the strength to leave the M during the A. Can you say more about not having the strength before. What do you mean by this. Was it self-esteem. Was it the certainty that there was someone else you could have an R with?

Finally, and this is where it seems my FWW and you differ, my FWW seems to have an incredibly hard time letting the A life go. Did you struggle with that? I think much of her subsequent breaking of NC has to do with not wanting to hurt OM's feeling. Did you not have any problem breaking off the A? I think much of her indecision comes from developing a habit of the A life and getting out of practice with an M life. Also, even though I've made the changes that she seems to have wanted, I don't think they matter to her anymore and I don't think she really believes the changes will be permanent.

As a FWS, did you struggle with any of that. Why did you believe it would be any different with your BS. Did you have a time table to see if the changes would stick?

Catgirl,

Honestly, I don't think it's time for you to throw in the towel yet. Pittman says of all divorces, the overwhelming majority involve infidelity of some sort. Less than 20% of divorces result from issues other than infidelity. That's because very few people are emotionally prepared to leave their spouse unless they have someone else to run to.

If I were you, I wouldn't believe your WS's contention that the affair isn't the reason your marriage is done. Try to remember that people engaged in romantic affairs are driven by emotion, not reason. Your husband wants you to believe the marriage problems and the affair are unrelated, just as my wife does. It takes some of the guilt away for having the affair and puts it on you or the marriage itself. The proof that the marriage wasn't bad enough to seek a divorce in evident in the fact that he didn't seek a separation or divorce until after the affair began. He has someone to lean on and it now seems a lot easier for him to leave you.

But once you are out of the picture the other woman better do a darn good job of meeting his emotional needs or he will soon begin having doubts about leaving you. Maybe she will and maybe she won't, but the experts say the smart money would be bet against her.

Hiker,

I hope you are right in the fact that she doesn't meet all of his needs and he dumps her. But by then, I might not be waiting for him. He's had the chance to let her go. I told him the reason why we are D'ing is because of the A. He didn't break it off.

I think he wants her now more than ever because he knows he is losing me to the D, so he has her to fall back on.

She is almost half his age. What the he** does he want to get involved with her for, is beyong me. She's not even D'd from her H yet and not sure if she plans to in the near future. I talked to her H, and he said he's not D'ing her first, can't afford it.

cat

my H left me for someone close to my age with 4 kids.....

that's hard for me to understand

hiker...i still hope that everything you say is true

i can't imagine that someone with children is my H "soul mate"............i can't imagine that all of his feelings about childre....for 42 years has changed and he now wants them

That's fine. In the end it will probably be your choice whether to reconcile or not. Remember, in Pittman's experience, the WS almost always returns to the BS to "feel out" the BS for possible reconciliation.

eav,

Again, a little of Pittman:

Here is a statement that brings some clarity about the general craziness of people. (Pittman)

Yes, it was romantic. Makes it easier to manage when I acknowledge the reality of it.



I'm not sure we would have been divorced. I would most definitely ended up inpatient at some hospital. I was certainly not a healthy individual.

As far as gaining the strength to make a decision...d-day put me in a crucible where I felt like I HAD to make a decision...I couldn't delay it or side-step it. All that I was was reduced to this decision. It felt like life or death. Choosing a marriage like I had been in was death. Choosing the OW was life, but not what I would prefer. She was a life boat, but how many of us want to live our lives in a lifeboat? Choosing a changed marriage was best by far...which is why it was so imporatant to me to know she would change. I think, at this point, I would have chosen death to returning to the same old marriage.


Yes, for months...it took a IC to help me let her go.



I had a helluva time not contacting the OW. It was the hardest thing I've ever avoided doing in my life. I can't really tell you how I kept from doing it...other than to institute a policy of complete transparency...which I immediately did.

My wife initially worked towards repairing the marriage. She was making the changes I asked for and I openly praised her for it. I thought things were going well.

And then it just stopped. She quit. I have suspicions that she may have started her own affair...but all that's after the fact.

As you know we are now separated. It was about the time that I was falling back in love with her and our family. I worked SO HARD to get to that point...only for her to throw it away.

I never had a time table. I wanted everything to pass as soon as it could, but had no expectations. If I could go over again, I'd get into IC a LOT sooner. Much of my problem was OCD and depression related.

I made A LOT of changes in me. I wanted to know what went wrong inside me that let me do such a despicable thing. It took me a while to get there. But I did. But she didn't hold up her end of the bargain. Some would say she had a right to let go...I disagree. I think her time to decide had passed. I feel tricked into five years of attempted recovery.

The changes I made were, and are, permanent. I will never engage in infidelity again...not because I fear hurting my future spouse (if I marry again), but because I will never sacrifice my own integrity like that again. It's not who I want to be.

so Hiker....where is the GOOD news from Pittman to follow what you shared to me above??

you know...the part about the most intense affairs with the most unlikely people ending the fastest or ending with no withdraw or with the WS running back to the BS with his tail between his legs begging to come home........anything like that in your books?? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Low - thanks. Very insightful

eav,

Well, he does make this generalization about romantic affairs:


I wish I had good news for you, but the bottom line is that this may well be one of the worst experiences of your life. That's been true for me, and as Dr. Harley points out, many folks say it is worse than dealing with a death in the family.

There's always hope, but even when it becomes crystal clear that your relationship is over, you can still turn the negative into a positive by improving yourself and making a new life; and it can be a better life than you thought possible. Many folks have done it before you. Time can heal the deepest wounds if you let it, though there will always be scars.

But try to maintain your patience through all this. On those days where the depression is deepest, remind yourself that tomorrow can be better. Eventually all this will pass and you will once again live a normal life.

thank you for finding that quote hiker....i never really expected there to be something like that!

my father committed suicide...and he was the one person other than my H that i was closest to in this world...mourning that loss was nowhere near as bad as this has been....

because i still know that he's out there and i still keep thinking that maybe he will realize that he made a mistake and give our marriage another chance...and because my H was the other rock in my life and he held me up through it

i honestly believe that my H is the great love of my life and i can never see my life as being complete without him in it.....

but hey...he used to say that about me too

My wife used to call me her "dream guy." I have cards and letters that say our marriage has been "the happiest years" of her life.

I wonder what she is telling the OM tonight.

I was his "one and only". So he used to say.

Found corespondence between WH and OW. He told her she would always be his #1.

Yuck!!!!

hiker....what is the book/are the books by Pittman that you have read?

found it in your post on page 1!

One of the reasons I find my own situation so difficult to deal with, is that I realize my wife is not a bad person. In most ways she is a very good person. If I could demonize her I might make this all a lot easier to take. But all she did was make a mistake; she stepped across a boundary and was soon caught up in a kind of emotional turmoil. These very powerful emotions prevent her from seeing the situation objectively. (I, too, am caught up in powerful emotions and it is only due to my effort to study what had been written about similar situations and seek counseling that allows me to understand what is happening and why.)

The change in her is so dramatic that I had no problem accepting Steve Harley's comment that "at times you wouldn't find it hard to accept the idea that your wife is schizophrenic."

I still love my wife, but getting her back is only a preference, not a need. I'll survive without her, and I may even find someone better someday. But it is also possible that I'll spend the rest of my life alone. And that's okay.

My primary goal in life now is to be the best father I can be to my 4 year-old son. I had a good role model -- my own father -- so the task will be much easier.

In the meantime I still have a thread of hope that my wife will see her mistake and seek reconciliation. There are nearly five months of separation left before she can file for divorce. That means I'll either have the best Christmas ever, or perhaps the worst. If we do split up, I'll at least have the satisfaction of knowing I did everything possible to try to save my marriage, and what occurred was beyond my control.

i don't know your story Hiker...how long has this been going on for you?

i can honestly say that my H was also a very good man and a very good husband....i was a workaholic....and then i was deeply depressed following the death of my father...not for months but for several years

what he did was wrong....but i do understand...it was like he had no-one even though he had a wife

and he is very angry at me...still today...

and he found someone who gave him all of the attention that i didn't and met all of the needs that i wasn't....i'm not sure that i was meeting any of his needs now that i know what his top 5 were

so why should he trust that it would be any different now? why should he take the risk on an unknown when he thinks he has found someone he knows can meet his needs because she is?

in addition to being heartbroken and hurt...i'm frustrated and angry that he won't give us a chance to try again

Hiker,

Thank you for starting this thread. Your summary of the books in your first post was excellent.

With all due respect, however, your WW did not make a mistake. A mistake is when you mean to pour milk on your cereal and you pour coffee instead.

Of the authors you profiled, my favorite is Pittman because he may be the lone writer who does not blame the BS for the WS affair. As he puts it, you can make your spouse unhappy, but you cannot make them unfaithful.

Your WW committed the worst possible atrocity she could have to you. As a BS, I know the pain of infidelity well. I have lost both of my parents as well as good friends. None come close to the heartbreak of my soulmate cheating on me for 4.5 years.

eav,

I discovered the affair on March 3rd of this year. It began last July. When I first confronted her with it, she denied it, but eventually she admitted it saying she had made "bad choices" and that she had "issues." She said at that time that she was confused and needed time to think things out. I tried to get her to stop the affair and have us both go to counseling either together or separately, but she refused. She continued to see the OM, tried to hide all evidence of her infidelity, and in many ways she followed the textbook case of a romantic affair. She gave me the classic line, "I love you, but I'm not in love with you." I found the MB website, got His Needs, Her Needs, and managed to convince her to do the Emotional Needs Questionaire. I admitted not doing a good job on meeting her emotional needs, promised to work on those issues, and from that point on she used that as a weapon, saying our marriage was foundering before the affair. I counseled with Steve Harley, but without my wife's participation things were going nowhere. I went into Plan A, became extremely frustrated after two months and considered moving out. I overheard a conversation between her and the OM making all sorts of big plans after I would be gone, and was told by my lawyer that moving out might jeopardize my chances at custody, so I stayed in the house. We sleep in different rooms, but the atmosphere has been chilly.

She has always maintained that the marital problems and the affair are unrelated, but if you have seen my other posts you know that she never mentioned any marital problems until after I discovered the affair. The first time I ever heard the words "separation" or "divorce" from her was when I tried pressuring her to stop the affair.

The OM is married as well and separated from his wife since she discovered his affair. He lives about 3 hours away, so my wife only sees him 2 or 3 times a month. That will probably cause the affair to last longer than normally because they don't see each other often enough or long enough to have the "gloss" wear off.

There is no question it is a fantasy relationship; my wife has dramatically altered her behavior in pursuit of this guy. And naturally enough, everything else in her life takes a back seat to her affair. She has neglected our son as well.

Recently she made it absolutely clear that she wants a divorce and she has no desire for reconciliation. So we are waiting for the remainder of the required six month separation until she can file.

I have Surviving An Affair, and the featured case history is remarkably similar to my own situation, but then, most are.

One thing I would advise you about in your own situation is to take everything your WS says with a grain of salt. Most of it has been concocted to cover the tremendous guilt that can accompany an affair. And the fact is, he may actually believe everything he says, but that doesn't make it true.

Remember, if things were really that bad in your marriage, he should have separated or divorced BEFORE the affair. And if you have demonstrated your willingness to work on the marriage since the affair, what possible excuse is there for him not to work on it as well?

I want to add that you say the OW in your case is meeting his needs, but remember they are in Stage I of their relationship, when both partners go overboard to try to please the other. Wait until a little reality sets in, and they begin to see each other's faults, then the first signs appear that one partner isn't quite happy about something the other partner does or doesn't do. That is the time when you will have a better idea whether she can meet all his needs or not.

Todd,

I really liked Pittman too. But Shirley Glass basically agrees that the BS is never to blame for the affair, though may certainly be responsible for any marital issues leading up to it. She also believes that infidelity can occur in good marriages.

Here is another very interesting observation from Private Lies:


and here:

Here's today's quote from Dr. Shirley Glass' Not Just Friends:


This last statement explains why some affairs seem tied to what is known as a "mid-life crisis."

I understand what Glass is saying, but I can't understand why you would call a marriage in which a partner had weak boundaries a "good" marriage. That's my fundamental disagreement with that concept. BTW, Glass's assertion is an "opinion", not a "fact".

I do agree with the MLC observation. In my case, I begged and pleaded for wife to engage with me during the MLC. I reached out to her because I was scared...she rejected me for the same reason. The biggest mistake the spouse of someone in MLC can make is to discount the reality of the MLC for their spouse. Saying "It's just a phase, you'll get over it" is disasterous. This rejection allowed me to emotionally disengage from my wife...I believed she didn't care about what I was going through...she didn't care about me.

If you have spouse in MLC, you can be assured they will come out of it different than they were before. You have to decide if you want to continue to be married to this different person.

LO,


I think what she is describing here is a marriage devoid of any obvious signs of strife or incompatibility, where each spouse would be willing to describe their marriage as a good one. But when circumstances evolve into a situation where one spouse is tempted into having an affair, that spouse may "adjust" their boundaries to pursue it.

hiker...i so appreciate all of the information that you are sharing....especailly from Pittman as that is one book i don't have

And here's where it fails the test...my wife and I BOTH would have agreed that the marriage was GOOD - WHILE I WAS HAVING THE AFFAIR!

But was it really? You tell me.

I guess Glass would say that if you were both satisfied that the marriage was good, then who is to say it wasn't? Pittman would call that kind of affair a marital arrangement, and there are people who live like that and are apparently satisfied with whatever mutually agreed conditions exist.

But my understanding from what you wrote before was that you were in a kind of emotional turmoil with your wife refusing to accept certain issues you had. So I am not sure why you would call your marriage "good" as in free of strife, etc.

eav,

Thanks. Here is another dose of Pittman for you:


I think this may account for at least a few of the divorces that result from an affair; the WS feels so guilty that it seems impossible to go back to their spouse.

After the affair started, that strife was gone. Surely she still refused to deal with some issues. But those didn't bother me anymore. I was happy, she was happy. We were happier than we had been in years.

So, tell me again why I had to stop my affair...an activity that by these definitions caused my marriage to be "good"?

Are we acknowledging that "marital arrangements" are, perhaps healthy for a marriage? I doubt that's what you meant.

Here is why I defend this point so vigorously...

If the spouses convince themselves that the marriage was GOOD before the affair, I think it prevents them from being motivated to examine all aspects of their marriage to identify issues. It makes it easier to just "sweep under the rug" OR easier to just blame all on the WS and refuse to really recover.

I think defining a good marriage as one that is happy and strife free is a huge disservice. I bet Brad and Jen had a very GOOD marriage at one point.

No, I think a GOOD marriage is one where Harley's Four Rules and other policies are passionately embraced - in a practical manner. One in which spouses learn to be interdependent as opposed to enmeshed or independent. That means you don't trust your spouse to a fault. That means you are INTENTIONAL about being open and honest and protecting your marriage. These things don't just happen...people decide to do them.

That said...I really doubt there are very many really good marriages out there. Many are just time bombs...due to the ignorance or naivity of the spouses. Sometimes they get lucky and the bomb never goes off...sometimes they don't.

That's why I think Marriage Builders should be a REQUIRED course for EVERY couple to get married, with 5 year updates to check progress.

Couples living in blissful ignorance are not necessarily living in "good" marriages.

Let's say I had a habit of leaving more doors unlocked. My house is not burglarized for 4 years...but then suddenly is.

Was my house "safe" for those 4 years...then suddenly not? Or could I have done more to make my house "safe".

Is Pittman talking about a certain kind of affair here? I felt no guilt during my A as described. Never made my wife the enemy...although I did treat her with great disrespect by having an A. I treated her like an emotional invalid and convinced myself that this is how things had to be for our marriage to survive...QED...no guilt.

The more I read here, the more I think my A really was an odd one.

Assuming that your wife knew of the affair, whether your marriage was good or not is a matter of your own subjective judgement. If you and your wife both felt you had a good marriage and you were satisfied with things as they were, who has the right to tell you otherwise? Pittman would call this a marital arrangement; simply an unconventional marital agreement between marriage partners.

On the other hand, if your wife was unaware of the affair, then the question would be thus: If your wife knew that you were having an affair, would she still consider it a good marriage?

Additionally, if you found that the only way you could endure your marriage was by having an affair, why would you consider it good? What you seem to be saying is that you had a terrible toothache, so you took aspirin everyday to alleviate the pain, and everything was fine after that. But you never bothered to seek treatment for the source of the pain and the fact that the aspirin killed the pain doesn't mean there was nothing wrong with your tooth.

All this still doesn't prove that affairs only occur in bad marriages. As Pittman points out, how is it that people are married for 20 years and produce 5 children and one spouse has an affair and claims the marriage was bad from the start? Was it really bad? Why is it that so few of these folks seek a separation or divorce PRIOR to having the affair? Could it be that they didn't really think it was bad until they started comparing their Stage I romance with their Stage II or III marriage?

My point has never been that infidelity only occurs in good marriages. It occurs in both bad and good marriages and for a variety of reasons. What I was trying to convey is that the so-called prevailing wisdom that affairs only occur in bad marriages is a myth, plain and simple. And this myth leaves many BS's with a sense of guilt which may be totally undeserved.

It is important to realize that part of the so-called "fog" we hear about can be the creation and exaggeration of marital problems that didn't exist prior to the affair.

Your situation may certainly be different.

You rationalized your affair to suppress your guilt, apparently quite successfully.

Thank you Hiker,
I 've said it ever since I came here, I don't think anyone believed me. I had a good happy marriage before my affair.
Comparing the excitement of the affair with being married for 15 years yeah, I agree with you. My marriage seemed bad then.

Take care
Scott

OnlyHuman,

It may have seemed bad by comparison, but that doesn't mean it was bad. Remember that Stage I is an idealized love based on projection and fantasy, and Stage II is reality-based. Any couple that stays together long enough in a loving relationship will move into Stage II.

Pittman says:


I might add that the lack of safety and security in the relationship actually makes it more passionate. When you aren't sure you have your lover "hooked" you keep doing everything you can to please him and/or make yourself more attractive to him.

Naturally, a secure love is part of what makes a marriage feel good, but it's passion that really grabs wandering spouses and clamps on "like snapping turtles."

hiker

my H actually said that every time he looks into my eyes...all he can see is the pain he put there...all he feels is the guilt and shame from what he did....

and the only way for him to heal is to do so away from me...

my eyes seem to be a mirror into his soul

so your quote above gets it exactly right it my case

but what do you do in these cases? how does it make semse???so the more i trusted him...the more i love him...the worse he feels.....so the more he stays away from me

his counselor did say that he doesn't think my H can live with what he has done to me...that he just wants to start over and pretend it never happended....

what Pittman says makes great sense...the OW is telling him that what he did was okay and he can live with that....and with her

Right, it just seemed bad and then I made it bad with all the lying etc etc
that affairs do.


Take care
Scott

eav,

If your husband truly feels this tremendous burden of guilt, there might be two approaches to dealing with it. One would be to convince him that he can be forgiven. The other is to show him that he can make amends by his future actions. For example, if you reconcile, part of the process he must go through is to make his life "transparent" for you. By that I mean he should provide you with a schedule of his daily activities, advise you whenever he deviates from that schedule, call you at various intervals throughout the day, provide complete access to all his e-mail accounts, and give you any information you might request about where he is and what he is doing. This is quite a burden, and if he feels guilty enough about his actions, he should be willing to do this for you. The act of doing this should assuage some of his guilt.

But as I am a naturally suspicious person, I would question whether he is really as guilty as either he or his counselor claim, because this also could be just another excuse for staying with the OW. And it's a good one; it makes him look like he's such a good person that he can't live with the pain he's caused you, so he's "sacrificing" himself by staying away from you and staying with the OW.

I'm not saying this is the case, just warning you that WSs will do or say just about anything to justify the affair and stay with the OP.

LO,

Who is responsible for you having your affair?

Thanks.

OnlyHuman,

The reason so few people may not have believed you about having a good marriage prior to the affair is that the MB concept says that affairs occur because you are not meeting some or all of the emotional needs of your spouse. I'm not sure whether the MB assumption is that if you have failed to meet your spouse's emotional needs, then by definition you have a bad marriage. However, the implication is that if your spouse is having an affair, it is because you have not met their emotional needs, and therefore you are at least partially to blame for creating the conditions that led to the affair.

I don't happen to believe this is true in all cases. In fact, Dr. Harley points out that men and women usually have completely different priorities when they list their emotional needs; the key here is that they don't know it.

Let me give you an example. Suppose your wife has Affection listed among her top 1 or 2 emotional needs, but you don't even list it in your top 5. Your wife, having the need for affection, is herself very affectionate because she is going to do for you what she wants for herself. You, on the other hand, list Sexual Fulfillment among your top 2 emotional needs. Her moves to be affectionate (which are non-sexual) cause you to assume she wants to make love. Her hugs and hand-holding somehow turn into a trip to the bedroom. It seems okay for a while, but eventually it begins to look to her like she can't touch you without it turning into sex, and though she likes sex, this is not what she is seeking with her affectionate actions. Therefore you are not meeting her need for affection in the way that she wants. Can you be blamed for this?

You thought you were doing what she wanted, but because men and women have such different emotional needs, and because they seldom sit down and communicate those needs, over time she might have become dissatisfied with that aspect of your relationship.

Your motivation was fine, it was your ignorance that got you into trouble.

My point is this: ignorance may not be an excuse for breaking the law, but it certainly isn't the grounds for blaming one spouse for the unhappiness of the other with the relationship. If you are unhappy, you need to communicate this to your spouse. If your spouse is unwilling or unable to work out the issue, or refuses to listen, that is a different story.

What I have read over and over in this forum, are examples of people who are blindsided by the discovery of an affair. They had no clue it was coming. The evidence would seem to indicate that their WS never told them the marriage was in crisis, or that they wanted a separation or divorce, until AFTER the affair began.

An obvious answer, Todd...we both know I am.

Acknowledging that a marriage needs work doesn't mean the BS assumes blame for the affair...

onlyhuman

i too have been frustrated with the lack of belief that prior to the affair....my H was a GOOD h....a very good H

i've been accused of seeing him through "rose colored glasses"

heck, he wouldn't have earned the fight that i've put into this since the affair happended if he hadn't been doing such a great job of meeting MY needs when i wasn't meeting his....of course i didn't know what his needs WERE cause he told OW and not me until i had him complete the emotional needs questionaire.....but he was already seeing OW then and told me that I wasn't the person that he wanted to meet those neds anymore....so he wouldn't let me reach him although i did plan A for a year

hiker

you have yet another good point...my H talked about his guilt and shame and how he needed to move on "alone" to heal....and he was seeing and then living with the OW the whole time.....and each time the OW broke things off with him to work on her marraige....he led me to believe that maybe we could work on things if I was willing to change....his guilt and shame weren't enough for him to be all alone....only enough to keep him away from me to "heal alone" if OW were there with him

would you recommend that i buy Pittman's book or have you shared mostof the important info here already?

eav,

I recommend you get the book. I think a lot of libraries have it, or if you prefer, I think Amazon sells it for about $12.

There's a lot of good information in it; much more than I can stick in this thread.

Here is another nice little aphorism from Private Lies:

LO,

I meant no offense and I hope none was taken. I believe that we BS can learn a lot from the WS and FWS community here at MB. My STBXW firmly blames me for her LTA. Improperly yes, but in her mind, she was justified.

As I am sure you can understand, there is a tendency for a BS to project his/her own sitch onto MB WS and FWS. It is inappropriate but seems to be inevitable in my case.

eav,

If you would like to read some writings from Pittman to get a feel for his style and content, click the link below. He writes for PsychologyToday.com and the article is an excerpt from his book.

http://www.psychologytoday.com/articles/pto-19930501-000027.html

And another:

hiker...again what you are quoting sums up my situation perfectly!

My h did flee the wreckage...admits that he ruined our marraige and has clearly stated that he wants a divorce and will file as soon as he has the money

todd
thanks so much for the site....as i read it just now i discovered that at some point i had read parts of it and I even have a post here that i started with exact quotes from that article.

ps
i just ordered the book from amazon a few minutes ago but as far as it helping to save my marriage...at this point....unless i'm going to use the book to beat my H over the head and drag him home.....it seems no book or advice is going to clear his fog and bring him back

What about a WS who claims, even 7 years later, that he did not have an affair with the OW whom he later married - even though he has never denied moving directly from our home to hers? He's not one to let facts get in the way of his beliefs.

Hi Nellie,

Surely your XH and my STBXW are related. She will never admit that she did anything wrong; after all, OM is her soulmate. They were destined for each other. How do you counter that?

Some WS never pull themselves from the fog and spend the rest of their lives in denial of the A. It is a defense mechanism designed to protect them from overwhelming guilt. They would flunk any reality testing by an IC.

eav,

The one thing Pittman nailed for me was his description of OM as a philanderer. I prefer the term sexual predator but hey, that's just me. OM was married to STBXW's best friend who had related story after story of OM's philandering escapades. Still, my STBXW found him charming and irrestible.

eav,

All the books and counseling in the world may not bring back our WSs, but it may help you to understand why and how it happened, and it should certainly convince you that you were not the cause of the infidelity and therefore should not feel guilty about it.

From Private Lies:

I think we, as betrayed spouses, like to think that all the treachery, lies, and betrayal perpetuated by the WS who never returns will ultimately be punished. We want to hear that the WS and OP have fallen out with each other, or that the WS regrets leaving the BS. But sometimes the WS and OP appear to be happy and show no signs of remorse for what they have done.

What consolation is left for us? If we have children we can be thankful for them. But more than anything else, we must see this tragedy as an opportunity to make ourselves better. We can find peace and happiness within ourselves. We can learn what it takes to make a marriage great, so that if we are lucky enough to have another shot at a lifelong partnership, we will be prepared to make it the best it can be. Happiness, as is so often said, comes from within. It is my preference to find a lifelong partner whom I can love and who loves me in return, but it is not a need.

And perhaps some meaning can be discerned from this tragic event when the day comes that a friend or acquaintance of yours finds himself in a similar situation, and there you are to help in a way that only one who has suffered through it can do.

Bump this for Quince.

Low, I have some questions for you.

Earlier on this thread you said you loved the OW immensely and still love her, so my questions:

Before, during and after the A, did you love your W too and how did the love you felt for your W differ from the love you felt towards the OW. Did you feel "romantic" love towards the OW (Stage 1) whereas you felt "attachement" love (Stage 2) towards your W or did you had some level of romatic feelings towards your W as well while the A was still ongoing? Or did those feelings return only after the A ended? (Remember, I'm not talking about real love here (which is action), but about feelings of love or "in love" feelings e.g. romantic feelings).

While you were still married to your W and after the A ended, did you felt guilty about the fact that you still had feelings of love towards the OW and how did you made peace within yourself that you still love the OW and that the way you felt towards her became a part of you and that those feelings you had towards her (and still have) didn't completely died over time? Did you ever share these things with your W after the A ended and while you tried to rebuild your M?

You say you still love the OW. Do you mean that - after all this time - you still have romantic feelings towards her like you did when the A was still on, or do you mean you still love her in the sense that you're concerned about her well-being and hope she's doing okay in life?

The love for my wife was always based on commitment. We never experienced "romantic" love in our marriage. It was attachment without an initial romantic phase. Some find this difficult to believe, but it's true.

Yes, I did feel romantic love for the OW...something I had never felt with my wife.

I never felt "romantic" love for my wife before, during, or after the affair. I stuck with it because the promise of MB is that it's possible to "fall in love" if you want to.

I no longer believe that.



Yes, I did. I only made peace with it when I admitted to myself that I did love the OW...and that was ok. I didn't have to act on it. I had former girlfriends that I loved as well. I'm sure you have boyfriends you knew before you were married.

Share them with wife? Of course not...that would've been cruel and inhuman. My focus was now on trying to build a romantic love with her. Nope, dealing with that was my cross...a consequence of my affair.



No, I still love her in that once that romantic love is established, it fundamentally changes the way you see that person for the rest of your life. Unless you're able to spend enough time with that person in a way that completely destroys their "love bank" account, that chemistry is always there. Ever heard the saying that Friends who become Lovers can never be just Friends again? It's true. There is a line that is crossed that changes things forever. This is not to say that we sit around and "pine" after that person.

It's odd...you see this in some ex-spouses...they are still in love with their ex-spouse but can't stand to live with them. They will always love them to some extent, especially if they had kids. I will always love my children's mother for that alone.

But do you still "pine" after your old HS boyfriends? Do you think those in their second marriages "pine" after their first spouse? I doubt it.

In fact, there are old girlfriends (pre-marriage) that I know I would be quite vulnerable to now. This is why classmates.com is so popular...and a breeding ground for affairs.

You see, yes, I still love the OW in that I feel butterflies around her...but...I know a long term relationship with her would be impossible. It is romantic love without the potential for attachment. Not the stuff marriages are made of.

At the same time, one cannot build a passionate marriage on "attachment" alone either. That's what me and my STBXW tried to do.

Next time...I want both...I want the crazy, mad all-over-the house passion WITH the calm compatibility between those times.

Low,

Thanks for your honest sharing. The reason I’ve asked those questions is because some of the things you’ve said have stuck a cord with me – I could relate to some of the things you’ve said and that’s why I was seeking your input.

In me and my H’s case we had a strong bond, attachment and commitment towards each other from the very beginning and with the years this bond has grown much stronger especially with everything we’ve been through the past years. We also have a strong compatibility with equal backgrounds, beliefs etc. We did have the initial romantic phase in our relationship and my H was (and still is) very much “in love” with me, but I never felt the same crazy, madly “in love” or passion for my H like he did towards me. What I feel for my H is more a calm and committed love & attachment where I do experience some level of romantic feelings and passion for him at times. Before my EA it never bothered me - I didn’t know what I was missing until I started developing those very intense feelings for OM and fell “in love” with him after a 2 year friendship. Then I started missing/craving having those intense feelings towards my H and I still do.

Even before I met my H I never experienced the madly, obsessive “in love” feelings with anyone else. I only had 1 boyfriend who I was engaged with before I met my H, but even with this person I never felt deeply “in love” with or developed intense romantic feelings. I always thought there was something wrong with me and that I wasn't capable of having those intense/passionate feelings towards a man. The fact that I’ve developed romantic feelings and “fell in love” with another man while married and love my H…and the fact that those feelings for the OM will probably never completely go away…was a matter of great concern for me and I still struggle with feelings of guilt (even before the recent e-mail exchanges). I struggle to make peace with the fact that I loved the OM and still do in some ways – even though I have never physically acted on those feelings. But I know that dealing with this (to use your words) was and still is my cross…a consequence of my EA and “mental” adultery.

I understand what you saying about sharing those feelings with one’s spouse are cruel and inhuman…and I agree with you, but what choice did I had? My H wanted to know what was going on with me…he wanted to know why I found it so difficult to emotionally & mentally let go of a man I was never physically involved to begin with…someone I never had a *real* A with… I couldn’t lie to my H and I wanted to be honest and open with him…so to some degree I had to share what I felt towards the OM…one of the hardest things I ever did…to admit those things to him and watch his pain.

Yes, I understand what you’re saying and I agree. I can 100% relate to this.

It helped me to sort of mentally "step outside myself" and look at myself from that third person viewpoint...like watching a movie...

Was this guy remorseful? Was he doing all he could to make things right? Was he acting on leftover feelings?

I felt sorry for the guy...the way in which he'd screwed himself up so.

The feelings just ARE...they aren't good or bad. The actions they drive have moral fiber.

So, I started looking at these feelings like I was looking at a bug under a spy glass..."Gee, that's interesting."

Detaching from them and assigning them to "that guy in the past" helped release me from their strength.

Low, thanks for your post. Before the recent massive e-mail exchanges I did succeed in detaching from my feelings and assign it to "the past", but those e-mail exchanges have open up old "wounds" again and I just need to go through the detaching-process again. But I realize it’s part of the consequences of my recent behavior and betrayal towards my H.

There's an interesting theory about what causes us to be attracted to others. Dr. Harville Hendrix believes that we are not attracted by the positive traits of our partner, but by their negative traits. We seek these negative traits on a subconscious level. In essence, Hendrix says that our formative years from 0 to about 4 are extremely important for our emotional development. It is critical that our emotional needs of unconditional love, etc., are met, otherwise we develop an emotional conflict which we seek to resolve later in life.

A good example of this would be for a girl to be raised with an abusive, alcoholic father. Her relationship with him will be a source of inner conflict. When she becomes an adult, she will unconsciously seek out a man much like her father so that she can "resolve" this conflict that occurred so many years ago.

I think we've all seen examples of this.

Then to take it one step farther, the more serious this subconscious conflict is, the stronger the attraction to the other person. Even Pittman was amazed at the tenacity of women who stuck by abusive husbands, but noted that they usually were brought up by abusive fathers.

Not all conflicts are as obvious as abusive relationships; some of them are quite subtle.

As I say, an interesting theory.

Suzet,

You might try finding some information about the psychological use of the term "projection." It plays a big part in the emotional aspect of affairs. Basically, once we are attracted to someone, we begin projecting on them the traits we would like them to have. In this way, we actually create our ideal lover. This is the source of the fantasy that everyone talks about in affairs. Limited contact, secrecy, lies, and deception all add to the mix to create a heightened level of excitement about the relationship, which is why it oftens seems so much more passionate and romantic than anything that occurred before or after the marriage.

Naturally, few people ever live up to what has been projected on them, which is why the more contact you have with them, the better chance you have of discovering their real self. As time goes on, the projected image slips away, destroyed by the reality. In affairs, the deception still provides some excitement, but even that dies once your marriage is over and you're divorced. Then there's no need for secrecy and lies anymore.

The love you describe that you feel for your husband is the love that Pittman says is real. Pittman doesn't believe that romance and passion can be sustained forever, nor should it. The Harley's don't share that view. My own experience is that passion and romance can be revisited at times, but I don't believe it is sustainable on a long term basis.

Hiker, thanks for your post.

I agree with Pittman and I know what I feel for my H is real love. I also know my H has the same love for me although his feelings are much more passionate (romantic related) than mine. I know it would make both me and my H very happy & fulfilled if I could experience those passionate/romantic feelings on the same level than him.

Hiker, in spite of the fantasy and process of “projection” towards the OP you described, I think what also fuels the "in love feelings" or “passionate/lust” feelings for the OP and make it emotionally so obsessive and intense, is the thought of “forbidden fruit” and the temptation of it – Satan’s oldest tactic in the book.

A book which was extremely helpful to me to distinguish between real/true love, romantic love and feelings of love and to clear up my misconceptions about love was ”Road Less Traveled” by M. Scott Peck. In the chapters on love from this book, Scott Peck has described how real love is action and how people often confuse real love with romantic love. I think Pittman’s opinions on love are similar to those of Scott Peck. If you’re interested, here is the thread I posted long ago from the chapters on love from "Road Less Traveled".

Suzet,

Yes, I am familiar with Peck (who recently died, by the way). Peck believes that love is a matter of will.

Perhaps the reason your husband feels more passionate about you than you do about him is because he feels insecure with your relationship.

Security and passion are enemies in loving relationships. Once you feel certain your love interest is "hooked" on you, your passion begins to subside. That is why passion wanes in committed relationships like marriage.

On the other hand, insecurity fuels passion. You want someone to love you, but you are never quite sure how much they love you in return, or how secure their love for you is, so your desire or passion is increased.

If you look at what happens in most affairs, when the BS discovers the affair, the first reactions involve hurt and anger, but they typically evolve into a desire to "win back" their wandering spouse, and oddly enough, they become more passionate in their feelings for their spouse (though the hurt and anger remain too). Suddenly the spouse looks better, sexier, etc. And this stems from the insecurity that invades the relationship due to the affair.

I think Michael McDonald sings a song with the lyrics "there's always one who loves more than the other." This becomes more obvious when one of the partners is insecure about the relationship.

This may account for your husband's strong feelings for you. Simply put, his own insecurities may be driving his passion for you.

Once again, thank you hiker for your insight--well put. I know that shortly after D day for me and my husband, I put forth effort for passion. There was still plenty of anger. Now the passion is gone and the anger remains.

Sir, with all due respect, I don't believe this for a second. These are lies that lazy people tell themselves to feels better about a mediocre love life.

I don't care how many PhDs wrote this...

I have seen couples who've been married 50 years who still get twitterpated when they see their spouse walk into a room...

That passion isn't dead...

Suzet and LO,

I completely agree that it is possible and happens probably more than MB likes to admit..that people do not always love passionately the person that they marry.. Using the paradigm that if you once had chemistry..it can be retrieved is all well and good..but what if it was NEVER there?

My question would have to be..how honest was the nonpassionate spouse about this issue prior to marriage?

Did they have a sit down and say..you know..I really like you..I even love you in an affectionate way..but you really don't do it for me sexually, no chemistry..I'm not passionate about you..I don't have the butterflies and tingles..but let's give it a go anyway and commit for life.. what do you say?

I can't imagine that there would be TOO many marriages resulting from these talks..although I'm sure that there are people more idealistic than I who believe that this can change with time and effort.

The only area that I disagree with you Lo..is in failure to disclose [once again]..it is confronting the FACT that the passion isn't there that is painfull..not being honest about it.

Do you think that your wife would have been willing to spend any amount of her life trying to recover a ship that never sailed?

I wonder [pure speculation] how much of her abandonment of EN/MB as priority in her life had to do with intuition or something similar that your feelings for other women [and perhaps her feelings for you] just didn't compare? Do you think she decided it wasn't worth it?

LO,

I appreciate the fact that you disagree with some of these statements, but I think you are going too far with this comment:


I don't care whether a Phd wrote it or not either, but I do listen closely when someone with 27 years of experience in counseling makes a statement about human nature.

Incidentally, nowhere did I write that anybody's passion was dead.

Lake,

That is happening to me too. I tried just about everything to get my wife to stop the affair short of threatening or killing the OM. But she won't stop and even though I am doing the best Plan A I can muster, the fact is I am getting more and more resentful everyday (just as Dr. Harley predicts). There are days when I wish I never had to see or hear from her again, but that will never happen because we have a four year old son.

My Plan B will be the divorce itself, because she won't leave the house and if I leave, I jeopardize my chances for custody.

Hiker...I love this thread. Thank you. And for your perspective.

Wondering about your "I tried just about everything to get my WW (sic) to stop her (sic) affair." In appreciation of your thread, I thought I would share some more ideas...

You put a large sign, homemade, on your roof that says,

"My wife is having an affair and she won't leave."

Each morning, you brightly say, "Honey? You've chosen OM over your family. Leave."

Each evening you say, "Another day, stabbed in my heart by your presence. Ouch."

Calmly, directly.

You invite all her relatives over to stay with you, bunk them down, everywhere, and ask each time she leaves, "Are you going to your AP?" in front of them. Soon, they'll join in, take bets...and whenever she's on the phone, they can ask, "Is that the homewrecker?" over and over again.

Unfortunately, you'll have to feed them. This is more costly than the sign, I promise.

You can have a car magnet made (you'll need fifty, so you'll meet the volume discount requirement) that says, "Hi! I'm cheating on my family!" in red, white and blue colors...and each morning, before she leaves for work, put it on her bumper.

You could make a flyer and put it on your neighbors' doors...similar to your sign...be sure to match font styles.

Hope you find this humorous, if not enjoyable...

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

LA

LA,

Thanks for those suggestions. Yes, they were funny and I need some humor in my life right now.

Two weeks ago my mother-in-law came into the house and ranted and raved that I was badmouthing her daughter all over town and ruining her reputation. I should have ignored her but instead we got into it for about an hour.

The gist of it is that the MIL believes her daughter is doing the right thing by following her heart with the OM. The purpose of her visit, to my way of thinking, was to try to demonize me so that the coming divorce looks like my fault, or least is not happening because of the affair. This is my wife's line of thinking too: "My relationship with B*** has nothing to do with our problems."

Yeah, right.

Hiker,

You seem to have given this much thought, so let me ask: why do you think your wife doesn't wish to reconsider a relationship with you? I mean, really, why do you think that she has chosen to chuck a really good marriage for a chancy relationship with some dude she barely knows? Do you think she is insane? Do you think she is brainwashed and knows not what she does? Is she lost in the "fog"? What do you think the affair is giving her that the relationship with you doesn't? Pittman's level 1?

I think I'm getting a bit cynical in my old age and the more time I spend here reading the more cynical I become. I think that Harley's techniques may work to entice a WS that is wavering to reconsider a marriage. I do not think, and there are too many examples to count on this site that buck-up this observation, that they will work with a WS that has truly checked out of the marriage. Sometimes people are just done. They don't want to deal with you anymore . . . especially at an intimate level that defines marriage.

I think Pittman's theories are generally fine in the aggregate, but obviously there are exceptions to what he postulates. There are usually outliers in any dataset.

CN,

Well, first let me say that I agree with you that some spouses check out of the marriage and never check back in, and you could Plan A and Plan B til doomsday and not see any progress. As you say, there are always exceptions to the various theories about affairs.

Now to answer your other question as to why my wife doesn't wish to reconsider a relationship with me: I'm not entirely sure she doesn't.

Let me explain. Since our separation back in the first weekend in June she has continually said she wants a divorce. She is not interested in reconciliation or counseling or anything of the sort. She's said it flat out; no ifs, ands, or buts. Sounds pretty dismal, eh? Hopeless.

Today she was particularly mean and nasty and I finally cornered her and asked why. I explained that we have 4 1/2 months left of separation before we can file for divorce and I wanted to know why we can't get along better during that time. She said she felt like I was controlling her, but she couldn't explain why she felt that way. I told her she seemed miserable and she confessed that she was.

"What is it you want?"

"I want to be valued."

Well, I do value her. She is the glue that holds our family together.

She started crying and said her life was a terrible mess. She ruined everything. She wanted to know how I knew about quick divorces and why I was looking into them. I explained I was only looking at the possibilities because she was so determined to get a divorce.

We couldn't continue the conversation because she had to go to work.

I think my best course of action is to explain that she needs to figure out what she wants and make a plan to get there, and if individual counseling will help I'll be glad to pay for it.

Let's suppose for the sake of argument that what happened today was an isolated incident; that she still wants a divorce and won't be dissuade by anything.

Why would this be? Well, maybe one clue would be in her previous long term relationships: two marriages and one live-in partner. She dumped them all. Her best friend says she is looking for a knight in shining armor to sweep her off her feet. Well, six years ago I was the knight. But maybe my armor is a bit tarnished now, and like Pittman says, some people are in love with being in love.

My wife is a very intelligent woman, but she is also very emotional, and although everyone is driven by combinations of emotion and reason, some folks are driven a lot more by one than the other. My wife's behavior isn't driven by what she knows to be right, but by what she feels is right.

What she feels right now is an overwhelming infatuation for the OM. Anyone or anything that threatens that relationship is the enemy.

Do I think the affair will burn out? Heck, yes. Her past history and the pathology of affairs almost guarantee it. The question is, will she come back to me, and if so, will I still want her a year or two or three down the road?

Hiker,

If your wife feel that you are controlling then that is true for her (they are her feeling you know). You trying to get her to explain it to you is controlling. She said she feels controlled by you . . . it is how she feels . . . and feeling just are. An objective observer might disagree that you are controlling, but that doesn't matter. The fact is that she feels controlled, and people that feel that way tend to run if they can (in my limited data set).

It sounds like your wife doesn't really know what she wants. I'd bet she feels that she has ruined the marriage . . . and if she returns to the marriage this will be held over her to the end of time. She may have some notion that it would simply be easier . . . and emotionally more exciting, just want to start over without an affair dangling over her head for years to come. I certainly don't know.

If she has a history of serial monogamy (sort of anyway), and she is the one that always runs from the relationship this may just be another repeat of a tired pattern.

My only advice would be to stop asking her to justify/explain her feelings. Feelings aren’t always rational and logic is a poor tool for communicating something that is fundamentally illogical. I could try to explain all day why I am afraid of spiders (if I were) and you could produce a very logical and reasoned dissertation as to why my feelings were “wrong” or irrational . . . it wouldn’t change the fact that I would feel afraid when I saw spiders.

When people feel things and they don't understand why they feel them, the only way I know of to try to get to the meaning of their feelings is by talking about it. I asked her in the most polite and sincere way I could to tell me why she feels that I am trying to control her. If there is something I am doing that makes her feel that way then I need to take a close look at my own actions. Without her help, I may have no clue as to what would make her feel that way.

There's a big difference in trying to understand why someone feels the way they do and telling them they shouldn't feel the way they do. I never told her she shouldn't feel what she's feeling.

A further discussion about this matter later in the day led to the conclusion that she feels I am checking up on her by asking things like "When will you be home for supper?" etc.

Two things are happening here. First, I probably am asking more questions about where she's going and when she will be home ever since I discovered the affair. Second, she probably resents it because she still wants to keep the part of her life with the OM hidden from me, and there's probably a bit of guilt in there too.

The spider analogy doesn't quite apply here, because the fear of spiders, however irrational, is something almost universally understood. On the other hand, if your wife came up to you and said, "I feel like you don't love me," would you want to just leave it at that and give her the impression that her feelings are fully justified, when you know for a fact that you do love her?

You wouldn't say, "Well, your feelings are not valid." You would ask her why she feels that way so you could see what behaviors you have that might be causing those feelings.

This is very possible. Within a few days after I discovered the affair she told me that she felt I would never trust her again. I tried to assure her that over time I could learn to trust her again. Was the comment a legitimate concern about reconciliation, or just an excuse not to try working out our problems so that she could continue the affair? I don't know.

For a person having an affair, I think it looks a lot easier to leave the marriage. They can easily imagine the hardship in trying to make things work with their spouse after all the damage done. They wonder if they can ever be trusted again. They wonder if they will have to hear about their past mistakes everytime there's a squabble with their spouse. They have someone to run to, the OP, who is the last person to tell them that what they've done is wrong. And, of course, there are the powerful emotions that drive them to the OM.

When you think about it in those terms, it's a wonder that so many WSs actually do return to their spouses.

Hiker,

That's exactly why I feel WH will never come back to our M.

He takes the easy way out, and I bet he thinks it's much easier just to leave and cut his losses, then to stay and try to deal with what he did.

He knows me, and I would probably hang it over his head for awhile...something I would need to work on, and he knows the trust wouldn't be there for awhile, and he just figures why go through all that crap. He has an OW that wants him without having to work at anything.

Much easier life in his mind.

Hiker,

Sometimes this is a poor media to express thoughts.

Let's take a look at the controlling thing. Your wife said she feels like you try to control her; you asked her to explain why she feels that way. I tried to explain why someone who feels controlled would have issues with this . . . you are, even if you don't think of it this way, asking her to justify her feeling. This just doesn't work. What is being subtlety said is that you think her feelings are flawed . . . that is why you are asking for an explanation.




First off, her feelings, whatever they are, are fully justified. You are entitled to feel anyway that you do. Feeling just are.

In the case you presented, I would tell my wife that I'm sorry that she feels that way. I would tell her that it must be unpleasant to live with some who you think doesn’t love her. I would tell her that I do love her and that it troubles me that she can't feel the love that I have for her. I would probably ask her what things make her feel loved . . . the whole EN thing . . . and I would start trying to do the things that she interprets as love. I certainly wouldn’t argue with her . . . or give her a long list of things that I do that I think shows I love her, or ask her to justify her feelings. If she doesn't feel I love her, well, the she doesn't feel it.

About the WS walking away, yes, it happens all the time. The reasons very. One consistent feature apparent to me is that when a WS leaves they seldom leave to be alone. They usually have someone waiting for them.

You said "For a person having an affair, I think it looks a lot easier to leave the marriage. They can easily imagine the hardship in trying to make things work with their spouse after all the damage done. They wonder if they can ever be trusted again. They wonder if they will have to hear about their past mistakes everytime there's a squabble with their spouse. They have someone to run to, the OP, who is the last person to tell them that what they've done is wrong. And, of course, there are the powerful emotions that drive them to the OM."

I'm a FWS and I will say that this fear has been true in my case. The affair is used over and over again out of anger. If I had to do this over again . . . I probably wouldn't have tried to reconcile. I wouldn't have wasted the last 5 years trying to plug the holes in the marriage dyke. The problems is I'm running out of toes and fingers . . . and more holes keep popping up.

If you and WS do reconcile do not bash her with this for years and years. It will kill what love she does have for you and turn her mean . . . you can only kick the puppy so many times before it learns to fear and hate you.

This type of conversation requires the clarity that only comes with maturity or very good advice and guidance. In my case, we were teenagers when we married...we didn't really know what we doing...seemed like the right thing to do at the time.



Why do you think that I wasn't honest about this? I always disclosed my thoughts that we needed to establish a passionate relationship in our marriage. I always believed we could up until the day we split. I've since changed that tune.

What I THINK happened...I don't know, only she does...is that I became very proactive about what I expected in our relationship...I was very clear about what I believed we could achieve and had ideas about how we could get there. I had spent many years being very passive about the marriage...leaving "management" of the relationship up to her. I think this is very common in marriages.

She disengaged because I was challenging her...because I wasn't satisfied with the status quo. She no longer felt "in control" of our relationship.

So, yes, initially she was willing to spend her life trying to recover a ship that never sailed...as was I. I was willing spend the rest of my life working towards something we my have never been able to achieve...but I would have done it.
Perhaps such a thing is not to be grasped, but the struggle to achieve it is, in fact, the heart of a passionate relationship itself? Isn't that what MB promises?

Interestingly, over the last couple of months she's been making overtures toward re-establishing some kind of relationship with me. She has expressed that she thinks she may have been a bit hasty in her decision to ask me to leave.

I'm thinking her experience with her own recent flings may be helping her with perspective.

I may soften and build some kind of friendship for the sake of our daughters, but I'm not currently inclined to attempt to reconcile.

After you're through with Pittman and Glass, read "Passionate Marriage" by David Schnarch. It's a tough read...some pretty difficult concepts...some of which I'm still struggling with.

The assertion that I have real issues with is when someone complains about a lack of passion in the marriage, many will advise them that "it's supposed to be this way" or "that passion gives way to attachment" - both lies.

Marriage is SUPPOSED to be passionate. But it takes INTENTION and some understanding to make it that way. It's way to easy for spouses to fall into "fusion" (enmeshment) and abdicate their own power and identity to their spouse. They then become angry and resentful at its loss and tend to blame their spouse for it.

Do you think this could have happened to your wife?

Here's the real positive spin for the BS...the possibility that she did this WAS ENTIRELY HER OWN DECISION. Yes, you may have had a powerful personality that she found tough to stand up to, but ultimately, it's her responsibility to do it. An affair is an attempt to sidestep that responsibility or to get out of it via subterfuge.

It's a good, challenging read.

Low,

How is South Africa treating you? You are still there right?

So your wife is about done playing house with the dentist?

Hmmm....


If you did try to reconcile you may find it easier this time for the simple fact that the power center has evened out a bit as you both are guilty of similar extra-curricular activities.

I'm still keeping on for now. I don't have any great expectations that things are going to get better, I do know that they could get worse though.

I've enjoyed reading you thoughts on a passionate relationship, those ideas just seem so far removed from the life that I am living . . . passion? butterfly fluttering? maybe a small smidgen of excitement . . . some romance and affection . . . not here, I’m married don’t you know .

Hi, CN

SA has has pretty good. The first couple of months were pretty exciting, but I've settled into the routine...the new has worn off...but I hear that's supposed to happen <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Met some interesting people since, but not currently involved with any one of them.



I understand this struggle thoroughly...but I'd challenge you to think about how they might get "worse". Are you, perhaps, engaging in a little "feared fantasy"?

Schnarch was recently on NBC Dateline. A man had convinced his wife to go to Scharch's retreat thinking she had a problem as he was the unhappy one. At the retreat, Schnarch help start them down the road to differentiation. Turns out that his wife was not happy either but had been settling for fear of offending her H.

When she took back her power and identity and made her own desires and expectations clear to her H, he was intimidated to the point that they eventually divorced. He could not accept her "engagement" and her requirement for him to do the same. This is sort of what happened in my case, but my wife disengaged.

I wonder, if in you case, you are afraid to start that process because you fear the outcome?

Do this for the next few days...for you, not for her. You can begin to feel passionate when you act passionate. Kinda like women who buy VS undies for themselves.

Anyway....

Get some post it notes.

Write something thoughtful on it that you think she'd like to hear (Ex. "I love the way your lip curls up when you're feeling naughty" or "I love how you make special treats for the kids...you're a great mom.")

Just the act of you thinking about this stuff will spin your day.

Put the note where she can find it unexpectedly (on the speedo in the car)

Take a deep breath and let go of any expectation that she will acknowledge or respond to it. Remember...this is about you...not her...don't let her reaction drive yours.

Do this for a few days and see what happens...I bet you feel that "smidgen"...just a little.

Oh, BTW...don't try the VS undies thing...

The very point Schnarch makes, CN...is that YOU can decide that YOU are going to be a passionate person TODAY...

That's your power. It doesn't depend on your wife.

catgirl,

Assuming one does a good Plan A, when Plan B happens it puts a little distance between you and your spouse, allowing them to view things from the "outside." By that I mean there are other forces at work in your favor.

Sure, it looks easier to run out on your spouse when you consider all the things I wrote above, but remember, your WS may still be in the fantasy world where everything about the OP looks wonderful. What happens when that begins to wear off? What happens when they have their first big fight? As time goes on, your WS may look back on your marriage and think, "it wasn't so bad after all." Maybe a good Plan A does help Plan B work the old "absence makes the heart grow fonder" feelings.

Of course, this is all speculation. But the fact remains that Pittman, Glass, and Harley have found that most WSs return to their BSs at some point, even after divorce. Maybe they're seeking reconciliation. Maybe they just want assurance that they're still loved. I don't know, but they do return.

CN,

From a practical standpoint I don't think we are really disagreeing in general about this issue. But I do disagree with this:


I don't believe everyone's feelings are always justified. They have the right to feel as they do, but that doesn't mean they are justified.

If I tell you I am deathly afraid of walking outside of my house in Nome, Alaska, because I think tigers are going to eat me, I have the right to feel that way, but those feelings are not justified.

justify: To demonstrate or prove to be just, right, or reasonable.

Secondly, the conversation you describe about the hypothetical situation is the kind of exploration of one's feelings that is necessary in order to make adjustments in behavior. I did not ask my wife to justify her feelings; I only asked her what makes her feel the way she does. The underlying assumption is not that her feelings aren't valid. The underlying assumption is that there must be a cause and effect relationship between my behavior or her perception of my behavior, and her feelings of being controlled.

Finally I would say that I am confident that I could avoid bashing her over the affair. Assuming she stopped and we were working on our marriage, there's no point in trying to continually punish her for something that's over and done with. For another, it is well possible that I may have contributed to the conditions which led to the affair, giving me some culpability. And finally, after working so hard at restoring our marriage, I certainly wouldn't want to risk driving her away (as seems to be happening in your case).

Hiker,


Until you get your mind around the fact that your wife doesn't have to validate her feelings I just don't think there is much hope here.

I think your wife would rather have empathy from you in the form of compassionate listening than to have yet another round of you asking to explain herself so that you can understand what she is feeling (and in a not so subtle way forcing her to justify what she feels).

If I tell my wife "I feel sad" I probably just want a hug. I certainly don't want her response to my "I feel sad" statement to be "explain to me why you feel that way." That would just pi$$ me off. I'm looking for sympathy and I get a request to perform mental masturbation. Great.

I'm not trying to pick on you Hiker. I know you care about fixing your marriage. You will not think your way to a better marriage. . . eliminate love busters and meet her needs if she will let you: these two things have proven to work in many cases. Debating your wife's feelings probably won't get you there, but it is still a semi-free country and you can just keep keepin’ on if that is your desire.

1. There isn't much hope anyway, but what little there is doesn't have anything to do with validating anybody's feelings. It has to do with ending the addictive relationship of my wife to another man. I've explained why I think the affair occurred in other posts.


2. This characterization of the kind of conversation I had with my wife is way off the mark. It was entirely sympathetic and not like an inquisition.


3. Where did you get the idea that I was debating my wife's feelings?

People become intimate by sharing their feelings with each other. Sometimes they need to explain those feelings. Sometimes they don't even understand why they feel the way they do. Which is why counselors ask questions like "why do you feel . . . "

If by the term validate, you mean accepting that somebody indeed feels what they say they feel, I think that is self-evident. If you mean that all their feelings are justified, no matter what they are, then I have to disagree as I did in my previous post.

How does the WS choose the OP in romantic relationships?

There are several theories on this. Here are a few points from Glass, Pittman, and others.

1. The OP is chosen for his differences from the BS. The greater the difference, the stronger the attraction. Pittman says the most unlikely couplings are often the most intense.

2. The OP is chosen because the dynamics of that relationship allow the WS to adopt a new and different role than that which occurs in the marital relationship. The WS often views this new role as having a kind of freedom that didn't exist in the marriage.

3. The OP is chosen because of physical attraction. This doesn't mean the OP would necessarily be better looking than the BS, just that some people find certain physical characteristics in others as particularly attractive. We all understand this phenomenon, fortunately we all don't act on it.

4. The OP is chosen because he is a stranger. The WS has a need to "experiment" sexually or otherwise in a relationship but fears being rejected by the spouse. The experiment may be physical at first, but quickly becomes an emotional attachment because of acceptance.

Any others that you know of?

Hiker,

When you say that the WS "returns" to the BS, how do you mean that?

hiker

i read the book and the info gave me hope that my h may still return.

Todd,

Pittman says that in his experience, when the WS and BS separate or get divorced, there is almost always some point where the WS goes back to the BS to feel out reconciliation. That doesn't mean it happens, because it is often too late from the point of view of the BS, who eventually tires of enduring the unendurable.

And sometimes the WS is just testing the waters, looking for a kind of assurance that he or she is still loved by the BS, though not necessarily looking for reconciliation.

I'll try to find the exact quote for you.

eav,

Do you still want him to return?

Thanks Hiker,

Pittman never met my WW. She cannot admit she is wrong about anything. She does seek validation from others however, hence the OM's advances were successful.

Todd,

Keep in mind that Pittman doesn't say the WS comes back admitting error or expressing remorse. And if you're not careful, you may not even pick up on the subtle attempts by the WS to feel you out on returning.

An acquaintance of mine had his WW come back recently and casually ask if he was seeing anyone. A few days later he heard that she had split up with the OM. It now appears this was her subtle attempt to test the waters for a return home. He refuses to take her back.

Where is your story posted?

yes hiker...i'm still waiting for him to 'see the light" and come home....i love the guy

I haven't created many threads. The first was in JFO and I had a couple in General II. You can search by my user name.

Well, if these "experts" are correct you are likely to get that chance.

Have you considered all the difficulties involved? Think about how unresponsive he may be if he is in withdrawal, etc. How you must avoid hammering him over the head with the affair . . . searching for the causes and conditions which led to the affair without focusing on blame. . . changing behaviors that put you in conflict, etc.

before my H left, he completed the emotional needs questionair and it was really very clear what needs i was not meeting.....and i had no idea were even of importance to him

during plan A i did make many changes to show that i could meet those needs. of course it was too late because he said i was "not the person he wanted to do any of those things with anymore" but i continue to have the desire to do so. He needs to communicate those needs to me openly and honestly.

i know it will be rough....but "we" are worth it

I wish you the best of luck and truly hope you get a second chance.

thanks hiker....i hope for a 2nd chance and he would be lucky and smart if HE takes that chance <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />