CN,

From a practical standpoint I don't think we are really disagreeing in general about this issue. But I do disagree with this:


I don't believe everyone's feelings are always justified. They have the right to feel as they do, but that doesn't mean they are justified.

If I tell you I am deathly afraid of walking outside of my house in Nome, Alaska, because I think tigers are going to eat me, I have the right to feel that way, but those feelings are not justified.

justify: To demonstrate or prove to be just, right, or reasonable.

Secondly, the conversation you describe about the hypothetical situation is the kind of exploration of one's feelings that is necessary in order to make adjustments in behavior. I did not ask my wife to justify her feelings; I only asked her what makes her feel the way she does. The underlying assumption is not that her feelings aren't valid. The underlying assumption is that there must be a cause and effect relationship between my behavior or her perception of my behavior, and her feelings of being controlled.

Finally I would say that I am confident that I could avoid bashing her over the affair. Assuming she stopped and we were working on our marriage, there's no point in trying to continually punish her for something that's over and done with. For another, it is well possible that I may have contributed to the conditions which led to the affair, giving me some culpability. And finally, after working so hard at restoring our marriage, I certainly wouldn't want to risk driving her away (as seems to be happening in your case).

Hiker,


Until you get your mind around the fact that your wife doesn't have to validate her feelings I just don't think there is much hope here.

I think your wife would rather have empathy from you in the form of compassionate listening than to have yet another round of you asking to explain herself so that you can understand what she is feeling (and in a not so subtle way forcing her to justify what she feels).

If I tell my wife "I feel sad" I probably just want a hug. I certainly don't want her response to my "I feel sad" statement to be "explain to me why you feel that way." That would just pi$$ me off. I'm looking for sympathy and I get a request to perform mental masturbation. Great.

I'm not trying to pick on you Hiker. I know you care about fixing your marriage. You will not think your way to a better marriage. . . eliminate love busters and meet her needs if she will let you: these two things have proven to work in many cases. Debating your wife's feelings probably won't get you there, but it is still a semi-free country and you can just keep keepin’ on if that is your desire.

1. There isn't much hope anyway, but what little there is doesn't have anything to do with validating anybody's feelings. It has to do with ending the addictive relationship of my wife to another man. I've explained why I think the affair occurred in other posts.


2. This characterization of the kind of conversation I had with my wife is way off the mark. It was entirely sympathetic and not like an inquisition.


3. Where did you get the idea that I was debating my wife's feelings?

People become intimate by sharing their feelings with each other. Sometimes they need to explain those feelings. Sometimes they don't even understand why they feel the way they do. Which is why counselors ask questions like "why do you feel . . . "

If by the term validate, you mean accepting that somebody indeed feels what they say they feel, I think that is self-evident. If you mean that all their feelings are justified, no matter what they are, then I have to disagree as I did in my previous post.

How does the WS choose the OP in romantic relationships?

There are several theories on this. Here are a few points from Glass, Pittman, and others.

1. The OP is chosen for his differences from the BS. The greater the difference, the stronger the attraction. Pittman says the most unlikely couplings are often the most intense.

2. The OP is chosen because the dynamics of that relationship allow the WS to adopt a new and different role than that which occurs in the marital relationship. The WS often views this new role as having a kind of freedom that didn't exist in the marriage.

3. The OP is chosen because of physical attraction. This doesn't mean the OP would necessarily be better looking than the BS, just that some people find certain physical characteristics in others as particularly attractive. We all understand this phenomenon, fortunately we all don't act on it.

4. The OP is chosen because he is a stranger. The WS has a need to "experiment" sexually or otherwise in a relationship but fears being rejected by the spouse. The experiment may be physical at first, but quickly becomes an emotional attachment because of acceptance.

Any others that you know of?

Hiker,

When you say that the WS "returns" to the BS, how do you mean that?

hiker

i read the book and the info gave me hope that my h may still return.

Todd,

Pittman says that in his experience, when the WS and BS separate or get divorced, there is almost always some point where the WS goes back to the BS to feel out reconciliation. That doesn't mean it happens, because it is often too late from the point of view of the BS, who eventually tires of enduring the unendurable.

And sometimes the WS is just testing the waters, looking for a kind of assurance that he or she is still loved by the BS, though not necessarily looking for reconciliation.

I'll try to find the exact quote for you.

eav,

Do you still want him to return?

Thanks Hiker,

Pittman never met my WW. She cannot admit she is wrong about anything. She does seek validation from others however, hence the OM's advances were successful.

Todd,

Keep in mind that Pittman doesn't say the WS comes back admitting error or expressing remorse. And if you're not careful, you may not even pick up on the subtle attempts by the WS to feel you out on returning.

An acquaintance of mine had his WW come back recently and casually ask if he was seeing anyone. A few days later he heard that she had split up with the OM. It now appears this was her subtle attempt to test the waters for a return home. He refuses to take her back.

Where is your story posted?

yes hiker...i'm still waiting for him to 'see the light" and come home....i love the guy

I haven't created many threads. The first was in JFO and I had a couple in General II. You can search by my user name.

Well, if these "experts" are correct you are likely to get that chance.

Have you considered all the difficulties involved? Think about how unresponsive he may be if he is in withdrawal, etc. How you must avoid hammering him over the head with the affair . . . searching for the causes and conditions which led to the affair without focusing on blame. . . changing behaviors that put you in conflict, etc.

before my H left, he completed the emotional needs questionair and it was really very clear what needs i was not meeting.....and i had no idea were even of importance to him

during plan A i did make many changes to show that i could meet those needs. of course it was too late because he said i was "not the person he wanted to do any of those things with anymore" but i continue to have the desire to do so. He needs to communicate those needs to me openly and honestly.

i know it will be rough....but "we" are worth it

I wish you the best of luck and truly hope you get a second chance.

thanks hiker....i hope for a 2nd chance and he would be lucky and smart if HE takes that chance <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />