Here is another nice little aphorism from Private Lies:

LO,

I meant no offense and I hope none was taken. I believe that we BS can learn a lot from the WS and FWS community here at MB. My STBXW firmly blames me for her LTA. Improperly yes, but in her mind, she was justified.

As I am sure you can understand, there is a tendency for a BS to project his/her own sitch onto MB WS and FWS. It is inappropriate but seems to be inevitable in my case.

eav,

If you would like to read some writings from Pittman to get a feel for his style and content, click the link below. He writes for PsychologyToday.com and the article is an excerpt from his book.

http://www.psychologytoday.com/articles/pto-19930501-000027.html

And another:

hiker...again what you are quoting sums up my situation perfectly!

My h did flee the wreckage...admits that he ruined our marraige and has clearly stated that he wants a divorce and will file as soon as he has the money

todd
thanks so much for the site....as i read it just now i discovered that at some point i had read parts of it and I even have a post here that i started with exact quotes from that article.

ps
i just ordered the book from amazon a few minutes ago but as far as it helping to save my marriage...at this point....unless i'm going to use the book to beat my H over the head and drag him home.....it seems no book or advice is going to clear his fog and bring him back

What about a WS who claims, even 7 years later, that he did not have an affair with the OW whom he later married - even though he has never denied moving directly from our home to hers? He's not one to let facts get in the way of his beliefs.

Hi Nellie,

Surely your XH and my STBXW are related. She will never admit that she did anything wrong; after all, OM is her soulmate. They were destined for each other. How do you counter that?

Some WS never pull themselves from the fog and spend the rest of their lives in denial of the A. It is a defense mechanism designed to protect them from overwhelming guilt. They would flunk any reality testing by an IC.

eav,

The one thing Pittman nailed for me was his description of OM as a philanderer. I prefer the term sexual predator but hey, that's just me. OM was married to STBXW's best friend who had related story after story of OM's philandering escapades. Still, my STBXW found him charming and irrestible.

eav,

All the books and counseling in the world may not bring back our WSs, but it may help you to understand why and how it happened, and it should certainly convince you that you were not the cause of the infidelity and therefore should not feel guilty about it.

From Private Lies:

I think we, as betrayed spouses, like to think that all the treachery, lies, and betrayal perpetuated by the WS who never returns will ultimately be punished. We want to hear that the WS and OP have fallen out with each other, or that the WS regrets leaving the BS. But sometimes the WS and OP appear to be happy and show no signs of remorse for what they have done.

What consolation is left for us? If we have children we can be thankful for them. But more than anything else, we must see this tragedy as an opportunity to make ourselves better. We can find peace and happiness within ourselves. We can learn what it takes to make a marriage great, so that if we are lucky enough to have another shot at a lifelong partnership, we will be prepared to make it the best it can be. Happiness, as is so often said, comes from within. It is my preference to find a lifelong partner whom I can love and who loves me in return, but it is not a need.

And perhaps some meaning can be discerned from this tragic event when the day comes that a friend or acquaintance of yours finds himself in a similar situation, and there you are to help in a way that only one who has suffered through it can do.

Bump this for Quince.

Low, I have some questions for you.

Earlier on this thread you said you loved the OW immensely and still love her, so my questions:

Before, during and after the A, did you love your W too and how did the love you felt for your W differ from the love you felt towards the OW. Did you feel "romantic" love towards the OW (Stage 1) whereas you felt "attachement" love (Stage 2) towards your W or did you had some level of romatic feelings towards your W as well while the A was still ongoing? Or did those feelings return only after the A ended? (Remember, I'm not talking about real love here (which is action), but about feelings of love or "in love" feelings e.g. romantic feelings).

While you were still married to your W and after the A ended, did you felt guilty about the fact that you still had feelings of love towards the OW and how did you made peace within yourself that you still love the OW and that the way you felt towards her became a part of you and that those feelings you had towards her (and still have) didn't completely died over time? Did you ever share these things with your W after the A ended and while you tried to rebuild your M?

You say you still love the OW. Do you mean that - after all this time - you still have romantic feelings towards her like you did when the A was still on, or do you mean you still love her in the sense that you're concerned about her well-being and hope she's doing okay in life?

The love for my wife was always based on commitment. We never experienced "romantic" love in our marriage. It was attachment without an initial romantic phase. Some find this difficult to believe, but it's true.

Yes, I did feel romantic love for the OW...something I had never felt with my wife.

I never felt "romantic" love for my wife before, during, or after the affair. I stuck with it because the promise of MB is that it's possible to "fall in love" if you want to.

I no longer believe that.



Yes, I did. I only made peace with it when I admitted to myself that I did love the OW...and that was ok. I didn't have to act on it. I had former girlfriends that I loved as well. I'm sure you have boyfriends you knew before you were married.

Share them with wife? Of course not...that would've been cruel and inhuman. My focus was now on trying to build a romantic love with her. Nope, dealing with that was my cross...a consequence of my affair.



No, I still love her in that once that romantic love is established, it fundamentally changes the way you see that person for the rest of your life. Unless you're able to spend enough time with that person in a way that completely destroys their "love bank" account, that chemistry is always there. Ever heard the saying that Friends who become Lovers can never be just Friends again? It's true. There is a line that is crossed that changes things forever. This is not to say that we sit around and "pine" after that person.

It's odd...you see this in some ex-spouses...they are still in love with their ex-spouse but can't stand to live with them. They will always love them to some extent, especially if they had kids. I will always love my children's mother for that alone.

But do you still "pine" after your old HS boyfriends? Do you think those in their second marriages "pine" after their first spouse? I doubt it.

In fact, there are old girlfriends (pre-marriage) that I know I would be quite vulnerable to now. This is why classmates.com is so popular...and a breeding ground for affairs.

You see, yes, I still love the OW in that I feel butterflies around her...but...I know a long term relationship with her would be impossible. It is romantic love without the potential for attachment. Not the stuff marriages are made of.

At the same time, one cannot build a passionate marriage on "attachment" alone either. That's what me and my STBXW tried to do.

Next time...I want both...I want the crazy, mad all-over-the house passion WITH the calm compatibility between those times.

Low,

Thanks for your honest sharing. The reason I’ve asked those questions is because some of the things you’ve said have stuck a cord with me – I could relate to some of the things you’ve said and that’s why I was seeking your input.

In me and my H’s case we had a strong bond, attachment and commitment towards each other from the very beginning and with the years this bond has grown much stronger especially with everything we’ve been through the past years. We also have a strong compatibility with equal backgrounds, beliefs etc. We did have the initial romantic phase in our relationship and my H was (and still is) very much “in love” with me, but I never felt the same crazy, madly “in love” or passion for my H like he did towards me. What I feel for my H is more a calm and committed love & attachment where I do experience some level of romantic feelings and passion for him at times. Before my EA it never bothered me - I didn’t know what I was missing until I started developing those very intense feelings for OM and fell “in love” with him after a 2 year friendship. Then I started missing/craving having those intense feelings towards my H and I still do.

Even before I met my H I never experienced the madly, obsessive “in love” feelings with anyone else. I only had 1 boyfriend who I was engaged with before I met my H, but even with this person I never felt deeply “in love” with or developed intense romantic feelings. I always thought there was something wrong with me and that I wasn't capable of having those intense/passionate feelings towards a man. The fact that I’ve developed romantic feelings and “fell in love” with another man while married and love my H…and the fact that those feelings for the OM will probably never completely go away…was a matter of great concern for me and I still struggle with feelings of guilt (even before the recent e-mail exchanges). I struggle to make peace with the fact that I loved the OM and still do in some ways – even though I have never physically acted on those feelings. But I know that dealing with this (to use your words) was and still is my cross…a consequence of my EA and “mental” adultery.

I understand what you saying about sharing those feelings with one’s spouse are cruel and inhuman…and I agree with you, but what choice did I had? My H wanted to know what was going on with me…he wanted to know why I found it so difficult to emotionally & mentally let go of a man I was never physically involved to begin with…someone I never had a *real* A with… I couldn’t lie to my H and I wanted to be honest and open with him…so to some degree I had to share what I felt towards the OM…one of the hardest things I ever did…to admit those things to him and watch his pain.

Yes, I understand what you’re saying and I agree. I can 100% relate to this.

It helped me to sort of mentally "step outside myself" and look at myself from that third person viewpoint...like watching a movie...

Was this guy remorseful? Was he doing all he could to make things right? Was he acting on leftover feelings?

I felt sorry for the guy...the way in which he'd screwed himself up so.

The feelings just ARE...they aren't good or bad. The actions they drive have moral fiber.

So, I started looking at these feelings like I was looking at a bug under a spy glass..."Gee, that's interesting."

Detaching from them and assigning them to "that guy in the past" helped release me from their strength.

Low, thanks for your post. Before the recent massive e-mail exchanges I did succeed in detaching from my feelings and assign it to "the past", but those e-mail exchanges have open up old "wounds" again and I just need to go through the detaching-process again. But I realize it’s part of the consequences of my recent behavior and betrayal towards my H.

There's an interesting theory about what causes us to be attracted to others. Dr. Harville Hendrix believes that we are not attracted by the positive traits of our partner, but by their negative traits. We seek these negative traits on a subconscious level. In essence, Hendrix says that our formative years from 0 to about 4 are extremely important for our emotional development. It is critical that our emotional needs of unconditional love, etc., are met, otherwise we develop an emotional conflict which we seek to resolve later in life.

A good example of this would be for a girl to be raised with an abusive, alcoholic father. Her relationship with him will be a source of inner conflict. When she becomes an adult, she will unconsciously seek out a man much like her father so that she can "resolve" this conflict that occurred so many years ago.

I think we've all seen examples of this.

Then to take it one step farther, the more serious this subconscious conflict is, the stronger the attraction to the other person. Even Pittman was amazed at the tenacity of women who stuck by abusive husbands, but noted that they usually were brought up by abusive fathers.

Not all conflicts are as obvious as abusive relationships; some of them are quite subtle.

As I say, an interesting theory.

Suzet,

You might try finding some information about the psychological use of the term "projection." It plays a big part in the emotional aspect of affairs. Basically, once we are attracted to someone, we begin projecting on them the traits we would like them to have. In this way, we actually create our ideal lover. This is the source of the fantasy that everyone talks about in affairs. Limited contact, secrecy, lies, and deception all add to the mix to create a heightened level of excitement about the relationship, which is why it oftens seems so much more passionate and romantic than anything that occurred before or after the marriage.

Naturally, few people ever live up to what has been projected on them, which is why the more contact you have with them, the better chance you have of discovering their real self. As time goes on, the projected image slips away, destroyed by the reality. In affairs, the deception still provides some excitement, but even that dies once your marriage is over and you're divorced. Then there's no need for secrecy and lies anymore.

The love you describe that you feel for your husband is the love that Pittman says is real. Pittman doesn't believe that romance and passion can be sustained forever, nor should it. The Harley's don't share that view. My own experience is that passion and romance can be revisited at times, but I don't believe it is sustainable on a long term basis.

Hiker, thanks for your post.

I agree with Pittman and I know what I feel for my H is real love. I also know my H has the same love for me although his feelings are much more passionate (romantic related) than mine. I know it would make both me and my H very happy & fulfilled if I could experience those passionate/romantic feelings on the same level than him.

Hiker, in spite of the fantasy and process of “projection” towards the OP you described, I think what also fuels the "in love feelings" or “passionate/lust” feelings for the OP and make it emotionally so obsessive and intense, is the thought of “forbidden fruit” and the temptation of it – Satan’s oldest tactic in the book.

A book which was extremely helpful to me to distinguish between real/true love, romantic love and feelings of love and to clear up my misconceptions about love was ”Road Less Traveled” by M. Scott Peck. In the chapters on love from this book, Scott Peck has described how real love is action and how people often confuse real love with romantic love. I think Pittman’s opinions on love are similar to those of Scott Peck. If you’re interested, here is the thread I posted long ago from the chapters on love from "Road Less Traveled".

Suzet,

Yes, I am familiar with Peck (who recently died, by the way). Peck believes that love is a matter of will.

Perhaps the reason your husband feels more passionate about you than you do about him is because he feels insecure with your relationship.

Security and passion are enemies in loving relationships. Once you feel certain your love interest is "hooked" on you, your passion begins to subside. That is why passion wanes in committed relationships like marriage.

On the other hand, insecurity fuels passion. You want someone to love you, but you are never quite sure how much they love you in return, or how secure their love for you is, so your desire or passion is increased.

If you look at what happens in most affairs, when the BS discovers the affair, the first reactions involve hurt and anger, but they typically evolve into a desire to "win back" their wandering spouse, and oddly enough, they become more passionate in their feelings for their spouse (though the hurt and anger remain too). Suddenly the spouse looks better, sexier, etc. And this stems from the insecurity that invades the relationship due to the affair.

I think Michael McDonald sings a song with the lyrics "there's always one who loves more than the other." This becomes more obvious when one of the partners is insecure about the relationship.

This may account for your husband's strong feelings for you. Simply put, his own insecurities may be driving his passion for you.

Once again, thank you hiker for your insight--well put. I know that shortly after D day for me and my husband, I put forth effort for passion. There was still plenty of anger. Now the passion is gone and the anger remains.

Sir, with all due respect, I don't believe this for a second. These are lies that lazy people tell themselves to feels better about a mediocre love life.

I don't care how many PhDs wrote this...

I have seen couples who've been married 50 years who still get twitterpated when they see their spouse walk into a room...

That passion isn't dead...