hurting--my husband didn't confess ... he got caught. And he seems to be more concerned about his guilt than my pain. As usual, it is all about him.

Dru--I was going to get H to read at least parts of the How Can I Forgive You book by Janis Abrahms Spring. Other than that, all I can hope for is that his counselor will get through to him.

RLT,

My FWH didn't want to talk about it either. He said the same thing, that it made him feel bad.

I told him that you cannot shoot someone and then complain about the blood on the floor.

The talks you have with him have to make him feel safe. You have to tell him that somehow. I wrote my H a letter, explaining that I understood his pain, and appreciated that he had guilt and remorse over what he had done. I also told him that I understood that our conversations about what happened were uncomfortable for him, and that I didn't make it easier when I cried or LB'd. So from now on, that I would make every effort not to judge, not to LB, during the conversations - but in return, he had to open up and talk with me about what happened. I also had to assure him that we would not have "marathons" - this really helped. We agreed to limit things to one topic at a time. That really helped me to focus, and made him feel less blindsided, and he felt like he knew there was going to be a finite end. No all-nighters allowed. We agreed that we just had to stop at a given time, hold on to each other, breathe, and make time to love one another before we went to sleep for the night. These rules really made us pay attention to what we wanted to talk about, and made us play by the rules. It also helped me keep in control, because I had to be sure about what I wanted to talk about, what I wanted to ask about, and to stay focused.

Also, it helped him to know in advance that I wanted to talk, and what I wanted to talk about specifically. He is the type who needs some time to plan a little, to think a little. Just not good at spontaneously reacting to what I say, especially when I'm emotional.

Things got much easier for both of us from that point on. At one point, he actually started just talking to me about things, without even being asked. One evening, just started talking. I just listened and learned more than I had in all the prior conversations combined.

That was about a month ago - I'm ten months out from d-day. Like I said, he isn't much for talking. The change has been slow. But there is definitely a change.

You are early on. The crying does lessen. I promise.

Hang in there. Let him in, even if it's just to hold your hand. The forgiveness will sneak up on you.

SB

So did my FWW in a sense. I found out from someone else.

Either way the day they looked you in the eye and admitted that they did it relieved their consceince.

God I gotta tell you I know it sucks for you. I went through almost 3 years of my FWW not wanting to talk about it.

Been there done that. I hope your FWS does talk to you.

One of the things I read was that:
80% of M's survive if the A is discussed a lot. Full disclosure and what it means and how the BS feels.

55% if it is rarely discussed.

I don't know how accurate they are but for me I wanted the 80% chance.

Again no real advice just to tell you that you are not crazy

hurting ... I think I read those stats somewhere, too. Problem is, you have to convince the cheater.

You're right. The position we're in just sucks. It just seems so not right that we should have to go through the event itself, and then have salt rubbed in the wound by them not helping us through it. In my mind, I rescued H by taking him back because if I didn't he would have lost everything, most importantly the respect and love of his children. So, why can't he rescue me? Why can't he just help me through this instead of being a selfish pr***. Sometimes I hate him for this. I've read that at around six months, the BS starts to get really angry. Great. I'm at about 5 months since D Day. What will happen next, I wonder?

Anyway, you sound like a nice guy, hurtingless. I feel like at least someone understands what this knife in the back feels like.

Then I would say get that out of your mind. You did not rescue him, you decided that you loved him enough to try to recover from his A.

You cannot prove a negative. He might have been the same, worse, or better you never know.

What you do know is you love him. Work from that position as an equal not a saviour.

He does owe you if he wants to stay as well. Compensation is important. What do you think he could do to not make up for what he has done but to make your M better then it was before the A?

I know radical honesty is important. What else? I have been very frustrated because I have come to realize there was only one thing I could have done and that was a selfish demand on my FWW's part that she turned into a need.

There was actually nothing wrong on my side(her admission) but getting her to come to that conclusion only took about 3 years. LOL.

So now what do I do. I teach her how I want to be treated and how I want her to act toward me through positive reinforcement when she does something I like and through incremental enforcement of my boundries when she does something I don't like.

I understand the knife in the back and sometimes I have felt like she just looks at it and wonders what to do about it. Instead of calling 911 or pulling it out she gave it a little twist every once in a while. Then instead of caring for the wound she just said it happened in the past there is nothing I can do about it now.

hurting, I don't mean to sound overly pious as far as "saving" him. But the fact of the matter is that when he pulled his little stunt, going on a trip to FL with his girlfriend, unbeknownst to me and the kids, and they found out about it, they totally wrote him off. My 17 year old,and 15 year old boys were furious, and at the time, vowed to never set eyes on him again. They watched their mother crumble. They lost all respect for him.

When he came back home, and we decided to try and reconcile, I (not knowing my boundaries at the time, not letting the consequences of his actions fall on his own shoulders) did everything in my power to get the boys to let him back in. Not to exclude begging and pleading. It was pitiful. He does all this horrible stuff, then I fish him out of it. A sick codependency thing, I know. And if I had it to do over again, I would NOT have done that. But I guess I felt at the time that my marriage was as stake, that H would not want to come home if half the people in the house would not even give him the time of day. On the other hand, it was HIS job to earn their love and trust back, not mine. Today, they talk to him, hang around with him, but I know deep down, a lot of respect has been lost.

On a side note, I recently discovered that H and OW actually went to Church together. Why does that blow me away so? I mean, can you just see them, the two of them, standing before God in a church, and praying together? I mean, what did they think they were doing? Were they trying to win approval from the almighty or something? I think that, given the type of church they went to (Unity), they were looking for "God's Unconditional Love." Yeah, right. Also, she (OW) said the rosary every day that they were gone. Her, married with her three kids and two grandkids and a husband and two dogs at home while she was screwing MY husband. HELP!!! I JUST DON'T GET IT!!!!!!!!!

Rl,

Surprising what a WS can do isn't it.

Heck I found out over 6 months after D Day and her telling Me I knew everything that she took my kids to an amusement park with the OM.

What the heck was she thinking?

Well obviously she wasn't.

I don't think you are acting pious. I think your perception of the situation can help in recovery.

You are a good mother. No matter what happens between you and H the kids should love him. Maybe not respect him or his actions.

You did the right thing, you needed to create a safe environment for him to come home and you did the rest isup to him.

You are not that long into it.

I do not believe I will ever forgive my FWW. I HOPE that at some point the lessons that were meant to be learned are learned. I hope the problems we had before will be discussed and fixed. I hope she looks at me with love, respect and admiration.

I hope all of this stuff but I can't fix her. I can only fix me and my side of the M. I have done that and still am working on it.

Had a heart to heart with H last night. No LBing. But he confessed that he is still "battling" feelings for OW. That killed me inside. His A lasted about 8 months. He left the house for about 2 months. He's been back for about 2 months now. I have been trying to do everything to make him happy. But he says that when things get "hard" between us, i.e., when we talk about the A, when he sees all the pain he has caused me ... that's when he goes into his fantasy. It's as though he can't handle the realities, so he retreats in his mind to this "happy place." H has had a history of this. Had something of an EA, sort of. Over 24 years of M, he would, on and off, fantasize about a girl he met in college. Would write her poetry, songs, etc. I would find them lying around. It was a huge issue in our marriage for years. I think the A was just taking that fantasy to its ultimate step. And so, these women are nothing more than objects of his fantasies. Sounds weird, I know, but I have been dealing with this for years. Now, with the A, and him saying he's still battling his feelings for her, well I guess I shouldn't be surprised. But that doesn't mean it hurts any less. I just question myself, how long do I sit in this. How much longer do I? He is seeing a sex addiction counselor who is helping a lot. I just don't know what to do. I'm tired of feeling like second, like the woman in his life by default.

Hmmm,

I don't know if this will help..and I'd hate to put words in your Hs mouth...but based on your description it sounds like he is telling you he still struggles with escapism and fantasy rather than feelings specifically FOR the OW.

It seems obvious..and you have already conceded that you know this is an issue for him..but does it depersonalize it a bit if you readjust YOUR mirror?

noodle ... yes, he struggles with escapism and fantasy.

What do you mean, your last line? If I readjust my mirror?

Sorry. I'm not thinking clear this morning.

Sorry to be so vague..and not a little bit speculative even..but here goes.

Think of yourself in your car...you use your mirrors to gauge distances..and make perceptions..and judgements and your feelings about things are a refection of those judgements.

So you look in your mirror and your H is telling you he still struggles with feelings about OW.

Personally...I'd suggest that you process that info through the filter of hierarchical evidence [evidence that builds on itself].

You know that he has isues with escapism and fantasy...you know that he has a long history of romantic "constructs" that he apparently invested pretty heavily in them both recreationally and as a coping mechanism.

So..as a bystander it looks to me like an alcoholic admitting he feels like having a drink when the pressure is on...to which the unsympathetic but knee jerk response is something along the lines of "duh".

As a bystander it really looks a lot less like him pining for OW as an individual or a companion than a person who needs to develope some alternative coping skills.

Looking at it from that perspective...for me anyway...would take the sting out quite a lot because it removes the OW from the equation and doesn't set you up in a position of being in competition with her and it also may give you somewhere to GO with the issue which just "struggling with feelings" does not.

YMMV

Noodle, that makes a lot of sense. Thank you.

Really, the whole thing is eerily familiar because I HAVE been dealing with this for SO long. But I guess I'm starting to ask myself, is this acceptable? Do I just let him do this? Do I tolerate it? And if I do, for how long, another 24 years? I can't tell you the pain of always feeling like, no matter what you do, you're such not cutting the mustard.

I think, perhaps, this can be a turning point for us because it the past, he was never willing to confront this and really deal with it. Now, as the actual A made it explode in our faces, he is getting professional help for it. He is also turning to God for help, which he never before even considered.

I'm sure the realization was a slow dawn for both of you..with the affair being the epitome of that fantasy manifesting.

The thing to remember is..it isn't about you.

Sounds trite..but the truth is that this habit predated your marriage and just really followed him into it.

No matter what you do or how you contort until and unless he creates an alternative from his default of checking out of reality he will imo remain at risk.

So personally that's where I'd aim.

I fully believe that he is capable of this change..but aside from learning ABOUT the skills..and learning HOW to use them..he is going to have to CHOOSE to use them and discard the habit of fantasy... that will be the clincher.

As far as toleration..that is a personal question...I think it would be futile to give you some set date of weeks or months...especially as this is likely a lifelong habit..and may be a lifelong temptation.

Personally...attitude and effort and sincerity go a long way for me.

If I could SEE that a person was embracing counseling...really TRYING and pushing and WANTING to be well and find a way out...if they are *invested* in a solution then even during moments of failure I would probably not abandon hope...everyone fails sometimes.

On the other hand..if what you see is a halfhearted and insincere gesture then I'd be inclined to think they are not confronting the issue but trying to bullet dodge ie pacify you and tow the line but always with the plan of returning to the former lifestyle/habits when things cool down.

In that case I probably would remove myself from that environment.

Noodle, he is trying. I guess I need to focus on that.

In the meantime,I suppose I will continue to try and be the best wife I can be.

Thank you for your responses. I think I will have a better day because of them.

Anyone else out there have a problem of having sex with your partner still in withdrawal? All I can think when we are together that way, is that he is thinking about her, pining for her. It's a sick, gross feeling. I HATE IT!!! My counselor says, as part of my boundaries, I shouldn't do anything that makes me feel uncomfortable. The truth is, once I get past those HORRIBLE emotions, the sex is great. And, from what I understand, I am supposed to be meeting his most important emotional needs. Sex is definitely one of them. Any suggests on how to get through this? I know he's still battling with feelings for her (or something). And I feel completely demoralized when I have sex with him because of it.

Also, I read Suzet's rules on dealing with a FWS in withdrawal. We must be their best friend and confidant?

What does this mean, exactly. That we sit around and listen to our WS's whining over pining for OP?

Forget it! Plan Aing and waiting for withdrawal to end is demoralizing enough. I'll be damned if I'm going to listen to that!!

Am I wrong?

Dear RLT,

I just read this thread. I don't know if you read mine, but to recap briefly, My H had an EA for three weeks with an old h.s. girlfriend. He felt that as long as there was nothing physical about it, it was ok and that he was just having some fun. He felt he was playing a game and getting some admiration to see if he still was able to get admiration from someone. He describes that he was keeping this activity separate from his real life and even told her he had a very happy marriage--it was part of the admiration bit.

Anyway, after I discovered it He then became aware of how deep he was into it--daily e-mails had escalated into long phone calls and finally meeting her when she came into town.

He very willingly went NC and has been very good about recovery.

Anyway, my H has shared with me that he had had a fantasy world similar to the one you describe for your H--probably not as expansive as your H's--but still there and he used it I think as a coping mechanism instead of working through marital issues with me. I think the EA was an extension of this coping mechanism--but the fantasys were more SF in nature. He would not go there with the old HS girlfriend--it was a boundary he set to make the game "safe".

Now that we are recovering, I asked him if he is still having those fantasies. He told me no, not since D day and recovery.

The fantasies are not really about the OW, they are about a coping mechanism. I think that I am now close enough to my H and we are doing things re SF differently. I think that I am now his fantasy--the real me and him.

We have gone through months of recovery where I talked about what he did and asked him detailed questions over and over, cycling over and over. He stuck with me and was pretty patient about it.

I do now fully understand that it was about him and his needs, not about OW.

I feel pain for you and others who are not allowed to go through the cycling and full disclosure that we BSs seeem to need to go through to get through this.

Your H is not fantasizing about OW, he is trying to cope. It sounds like you are doing a great job with joining him in obtaining a fantasy world with you in SF since you say once you get through your pain, the s*x is great.

I think that is the way you are being his best friend and confidant. You are allowing him to express himself with you in a s*xual way and you are also getting SF.

You are doing this--not sitting around and listening to him pine--this thing that you are doing is the positive way of helping him and you. He disclosed his withdrawal issues to you and you and he are working on reclaiming and improving your intimacy with each other.

God Bless,
Lake

I am going to go against the grain a bit here. I think the trip to DW would be a huge mistake for a few reasons. First... this is all too fresh for you. Second and more importantly... you don't want to go to a place where he will remember fond memories of his escape with the OW. If you are set on Disney... go to Disney Land in California.

As far as your H still pining for the OW.. no, you should not have to listen to that [email]cr@p...[/email] let him talk to his counselor about it. And your not wanting to have SF with him is a perfectly normal reaction. Support his efforts... take care of you...build the best family you can...but make sure you hang on to your dignity.

And the church thing during the A is disgusting. Shows he had his head squarely up his [censored].

First, Lake. Thank you for responding. Sometimes I get to thinking my situation is so unique that no one will ever understand. I keep telling myself it's a coping mechanism, but it's become unacceptable for me, especially now that it turned into a PA. My fear is that, if he could fantasize about a person he hadn't even seen in 25 years for just as long, how will he EVER forget a real person (the PA)? I refuse to sit around for the second half of my life and witness that. The sex thing, like I said, can be difficult at first. And some, my counselor included, thinks I should not engage if I don't feel comfortable. I don't want to be a doormat, but I know that for him to forget about the A, I need to fill his needs, replace thoughts about OW with thoughts of me, his wife. What's so bad about that?

MK, thank you also. I have had the same haunting feelings about going to DW, afraid it will be a COMPLETE DISASTER for us. Yes, I have thought about it triggering emotions for OW all over again, and about making me just crazy hating him for taking here there. On the other hand, his IC told him to "immerse himself in triggers." I wondered why for awhile, then thought, because, if you repress them, you just make yourself sick and depressed and then they never really, truly go away. I think IC's angle is to get my WS to have a trigger, but learn how to re focus. We will be in DW with our three children, my brother and sister in law, my other brother and sister in law, and my mom. In total, there will be 10 of us there. So I'm thinking that this will be a good way to bring WS back into the fold completely, and let him see all that he would be missing. Hopefully, he can weigh the two in his mind (OW vs.family, wife) and come to a logical conclusion that he would have so much more to lose if he'd stuck with OW. That's my hope, anyway.

As for his pining, yeah, he talks to his counselor. I don't want to listen to it. I just hope this won't drag on forever.

The church thing, for some reason, just sticks up my craw, too, mk. It's SOOOOOOOOO disgustin, SOOOOOOOOO demented. On both their parts. Shame on them!!!

This is what I think is happening. He's still in withdrawal, and so therefore, cannot take the steps I need him to take to allow me to forgive him. It's almost like I CAN'T forgive him while he's still pining because, in a sense, to me, he's still committing the crime.

I don't know what to do with this. I just feel STUCK. Stuck until he decides he's going to put her out of his mind, once and for all. But I have this sick feeling his symptoms will just go on forever. And I'm not up for that. It's been four months since exposure/DDay. He had the A for 8 months.

Anyone with suggestions on what I should do?