Hi Starfish,


How did I say it would be different for others?

No, I don't think people involved in affairs value themselves.

How am I shaming others? By suggesting that they should be ashamed of themselves for having an affair? THEY SHOULD BE. Are you saying that my words can CREATE shame in adults who post here? If so, I don't agree.

In the real world where we know someone personally -- perhaps, but I'm still not fully on board with it. In children, who are still maturing, yes, I would say that we, as adults (especially parents) CAN create shame.

But on an anonymous message board -- NO.


I don't understand this question.



As someone who was sexually abused as a child, I can tell you that I felt both shame and guilt. I never said they were interchangable. It may not be the same construct, but I don't see how that ties into this conversation.


Did I say the *shame* empowered me? I don't remember saying that. The shame (for that choice) REMAINS, as we've both said, so what are we disagreeing about here?

And finally,

((((((((((((((((((((star*fish))))))))))))))))))))))

NB,

Where did I say *you* where shaming anyone? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> Remember that rule: Don't take things personally? The discussion <I thought> you and I were having, was about "shame as a motivator" not whether you personally use shame as a motivator or whether you're a good person. Earlier you said you thought it was a good motivator <for you>. I said I didn't think it was a good motivator <in general> and perhaps you were motivated by the value you've found in your journey (rather than feeling shameful about who you are)...tried to explain why I think so.

As far as whether an anonymous message board is capable of triggering shame in someone....I agree that it "shouldn't" and "doesn't" when folks are healthy and clear headed. I just don't think folks involved in affairs are very healthy and I think even the betrayed spouses feel shame, loss of value and confusion. Please distingquish that from the regular argument folks raise about "coddling"....because I'm not a coddler. I make a distinction between guilt and shame....and there is tons of research regarding that issue....that I can't ignore. I have not trouble pointing out the unethical and destructiveness of people's choices....in that process I think helping them see their own value and change that behavior so that their actions are in line with the best they can be....is a good thing.

Did you know for instance that researchers have found a connection between past child abuse and infidelity later in life? They think that has alot to do with <shame> and it's just ONE of the dysfunctional problems it creates....it's linked to all kinds of nasty things.

I could post and post some more studies....but it doesn't seem to matter...not even sure anyone is reading them. Several studies I've read about revolve around "classroom shame"...and you know what...this place is alot like a classroom. You're not telling me that you didn't experience shame on this board? Maybe you "shouldn't" have....but did you? I'm trying to stay grounded NB about what happens....really happens....not whether it should happen.

As far as you "personally"....I've never seen you attempt to shame ANYONE....quite the opposite.

"Shame on you for what you're doing!" is not at all what I'm talking about. "Shame on your for what you ARE....a slut, wh*re, dog in heat, and unredeemable person, got what you deserved" that's different. I don't think you can empower change while you destroy value. Steven Stosny's entire therapeutic model is based on that...and science supports it. The research being done....not by pop psychologists....but doctors and scientists on human emotions and "where" we process those emotions is astounding.

I really do believe that you're talking about guilt instead of shame. You may be using those words interchangeably....and I'm not....so it's causing a disconnect when we're speaking to each other....dunno. Shame is self hate....so if you think that it's been a good motivator for you....well yeah....I'd kinda be shocked because it's looking more like self love (value) is what is motivating you now toward a stronger self.

Don't worry about my feelings chere....I'm in the same place that your journey has brought you....where words on this board....or any external need for approval is not important to me. This is just a discussion....and your thoughts are valuable to me.

hugs backattcha

Hey NB,

As someone who has "known" you for years, I will say it is obvious that you have changed and yes the word balance comes to mind. But, what I sense is "grace". That is the word that I think comes to my mind when reading your posts now.

You have done well "young lady" <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> You truely have.

Star: I think people are reading what you are saying, but I also think some of this is splitting things too fine.

My personal preference for motivators was explained to me by my father: fear and greed. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Ultimately people are motivated by fear of losing something or wanting something they don't have.

I realize that in a very small minority of posts people get blasted when in fact it is just someone letting off steam themselves. They figure that the other person is Anon. so why not? Which is not good. However most 2x4 or what passes for one, or perhaps "pipe" are to try and instill some fear in the poster so that their complacency is disturbed. Even anger in the person is good, because as they try to defend themselves, it often strikes them that their position just may have a few holes in it.

Yet, it seems to me what is missed in this ongoing debate about styles is that no matter what any of us say, unless we eventually can add something of value to the discourse we will NOT change the person. And here is where the plans, the books, the articles, come in. Praise, criticism, anger, encouragement all mean NOTHING without action and that means a plan.

I cannot tell what people think of my "style", but if I can "scare" them off with one post, then I know they are not serious, thus and USEFUL information I or anyone else would provide is worthless. Hence, I am purposely rather blunt as some can attest, but if they respond and hang in there, THEN information can be exchanged and the work can begin. I think even NB might say that I can be blunt. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

So perhaps we need to curtail this discussion about "style" and discuss if there is substance to subsequent posts. If there is, then a new poster will find what they need from us. If the subsequent posts by anyone here do not contain substance, then their "style" is of no moment and neither is the fact that a persons comes and stays or leaves.

Just a few thoughts.

God Bless,

JL

JL,

Thanks for your thoughts. I think many folks are in agreement about the "splitting hairs" thing. I also think many of them aren't....and are quietly reading.

You mentioned "substance" and I guess I think there's alot of substance in this discussion....for instance, the last study I posted about how *shame feeds addictions* (and we know affairs act like addictions in the brain). That seems pretty relevent to me....especially if folks are using guilt and shame interchangeably (without distinction) to help motivate people to change.

As usual....any discussion about this...gets labelled as one about "style" and semantics. *yawn*

You're blunt JL. I'm blunt. So are a whole lot of great posters who are direct without needing to humiliate people. Like I asked ark....show me one of your posts where your bluntness was expressed disrespectfully....where you had to abandon your impeccable manners to express the harsh truth to someone.

I've not advocated curbing bluntness. I have talked about how to combine <bluntness with guilt> rather than <bluntness with shame>.

What I see is alot people defending something that they don't incorporate into their posting. That's a mystery to me.

I think it may have to do with fear that folks will try to censure or police "style". That's a legitimate concern. That's why I believe that "internal" moderation is so important so that "external" moderation is redundant and unecessary.

Star,

Thank you...I think. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

I guess I will go further about the shame thing. If I felt that shaming someone would open them up to accepting help and information...I would do it in a minute.

I would like to think I have not hurt or shamed someone, but I would bet that there are a few out there that could point to a post I have made that did just that. And since I post what I mean, I guess I have to defend it, otherwise I would not have meant it.

Heck I cannot read my W's mind, much posters on this sight. So I think I have shamed a few people. I know I have made a few mad. Sometimes I have done it intentionally, but sometimes I have not.

So while you may think I have not used shame, or pain, I would bet I have even if I did not set out to do it. I did/do however post what I think, so if the effect was shame or pain, tough. They can ignore me, or deal with it. My goal is send information and have it received and I cannot tell how I will affect people ahead of time.

So I guess I am defending my right to post as I see fit. I think others should do the same. Often people offer advice I don't necessarily agree with in ways I think is missing the mark. I try to keep my trap shut, because they just may hit the home run and I have no clue how someone will take what is said. We all have our filters, that is for sure.

Just more thoughts.

God Bless,

JL

PS: I am sort of from the "old" school (NB now behave yourself <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> ). More of the military approach, break them down, and then build them up again.

Star*,

Hmmm... we're having a communication gap of some sort, I fear.

When you say... "why do you think it's going to be so different for others?"(emphesis mine)... and then say "Do you think that people involved in affairs value themselves?" (emphesis still mine)... and follow it with "How is shaming them going to improve that dynamic?"... can you see how I *might* have thought you were asking me personally?

In re-reading your entire response to me... I'm trying to figure out if we're having a conversation about us (you and me) and our beliefs or about the board in general. It seems to go back and forth. I'm confused. Seriously.

For example, you said:
Star, I've said at least twice, if not more, that I do NOT think they are interchangable. I said: ...shame is about how it affects me, guilt is about how it affects others. How am I being unclear?

Are you asking me if I (personally) agree with calling someone names to get their attention? I guess I don't understand...

I'm not feeling defensive, Star, I'm feeling confused.

JL,

This is for you ------> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

Grace. I love that word. Thank you.

Makes me think of the movie Platoon .... the drill sargent .... my oh my ....I wonder if he was causing those soldiers SHAME while he was calling them very naughty names ... LOL <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

maybe he should read them a bedtime story instead ... prepare them for war properly <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I think she DOES have her own board

Star,

Thanks for the quotes about Guilt and Shame.

I disagree vehmently.

On D-Day, my wife felt guilt - just like a kid caught with his hands in the cookie jar. Guilt is a FACT. SHe WAS guilty of adultery. Than FACT nor the EMOTION caused any change.

In fact even after she decided to come home, it was still some time before she truely "got it" and felt ashamed not of herself but of what she had done.

I do agree that shame is not productive long term but in the short term works wonders.

Guilt does not produce repentance and change. Shame does.

JL,

The last time someone told me I was being too harsh....was last week....no lie. It happens all the time. Again....I'm making a distinction between coupling <bluntness and guilt> which research supports as effective...with <bluntness and shame> which research doesn't support as effective. I am open to hearing about some scientific study that shows different results....but no one has offered any.

The fact that the truth often really hurts is not in question <at least by me>. People need to know the truth about infidelity....they need to have the destructiveness of their choices...laid BARE....but that's not the same thing as tar and feathers....sorry...not buying that argument. I KNOW....that without truth there is no change...no enlightment...no healing. But truth and shame need not be partners. I've seen your delivery of truth, I've seen your blunt style....if you've shamed someone...I've not seen it. You've envoked ALOT of guilt....I've seen that for sure. Doesn't mean you didn't ever (but show me)....I just haven't seen it. I find your delivery EXTREMELY respectful.

However....I do know this...that I've appealed to truth and guilt and been accused of being harsh and shaming. On....that...we can certainly agree! So I KNOW that the line is different for everyone....an unfortunately that makes it next to impossible to impose general "standards" on things....doesn't mean we can't have individual standards...that we employ. I can use the most respectful language to invoke guilt, ethics, and truth....and still have folks FEEL shame even though that wasn't my intention. So I'm leaving up to each person to examine their own stuff....because in spite of folks claiming I have magical powers to edit or lock threads....I really don't. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I can try my best to give my best (you most certainly do the same) and still face criticism for my posts....and I do. I'm not advocating censorship....each one us has whatever responsibility we deem appropriate to explore and examine our language and style. I'm not advocating changing styles....I'm talking about how styles...even blunt styles can be MORE effective using the latest scientific research about what we know about guilt and shame.


If I believed that shaming someone would help....I'd do it in a minute too!...but I'm unwilling to ignore what I've learned about the effects of shame and their relationship to dysfunctional coping mechanisms, anger, withdrawal, disorders and addiction. I'm willing to do what works chere....just don't believe that shame works! And I'm sharing that!


I defend your right to post as you see fit too. I also defend MY right to say that I think <shame> is crummy motivator when used in posts. Is it really that different? If one freedom is protected....isn't the other? JL....nobody is forcing anybody to read this thread....and neither you nor I can change the way another person posts or their "style"....but I'll continue to defend everybody's right to express themselves. This is my expression. I think it has substance. I think it's important. I value your opinion. I value mine.

If what anyone is really trying to say is "star, can't you just shut TF up" LOL "you've beaten this into the ground"....then the answer is "not no, but H*LL no"....because every single DAY on this board I hear advice to others about how "if a subject or a poster bother you.... don't read the thread, put them on ignore...report them"....bla bla....then DO IT! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />


Hahahahaha...don't get me started on the military!! LOL

JL....blessings to you and thank you very much for your thoughts.



new beginning,

Star*,

Hmmm... we're having a communication gap of some sort, I fear.

Yeah....I think so too chere...it's okay.

When you say... "why do you think it's going to be so different for others?"(emphesis mine)... and then say "Do you think that people involved in affairs value themselves?" (emphesis still mine)... and follow it with "How is shaming them going to improve that dynamic?"... can you see how I *might* have thought you were asking me personally?

Sure I'm "asking" you personally. I'm not "attacking" you personally though. You didn't feel that way, right?

In re-reading your entire response to me... I'm trying to figure out if we're having a conversation about us (you and me) and our beliefs or about the board in general. It seems to go back and forth. I'm confused. Seriously.

I'm sorry about the confusion....very sorry....it's a general discussion <open to others> where YOU and I are talking about our individual opinions about shame and guilt as motivators....and what's shaped those opinions for each of us...experience...study...the board...etc. Well...I can only speak for me....but that's what I thought.

For example, you said:

Quote:
I really do believe that you're talking about guilt instead of shame. You may be using those words interchangeably....



Star, I've said at least twice, if not more, that I do NOT think they are interchangable. I said: ...shame is about how it affects me, guilt is about how it affects others. How am I being unclear?

Okay....here's how *I* think you're being unclear. When you express your (what you're calling *shame*) you express it about what you *did*...not *who you are*. You express it about the things you did to hurt other people....not about how you hate yourself...not about what a bad person you are/were....that's why *I* was confused.

Are you asking me if I (personally) agree with calling someone names to get their attention? I guess I don't understand...

NB....I already KNOW that you don't call people names (but am a bit confused about whether you think that's a good idea or bad idea at this point)....so any questions I posed were rhetorical....sorry if that confused you. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> If you want to call people names to get their attention.....I can't stop you!! I'm expressing *my opinion* based on the research I've studied....that if you do....you may not be very effective in motivating change. Could be exceptions....there usually are (but exceptions don't negate the general rule)....but I hardly see a pattern of using shame in YOUR posts to "reach" people...and yeah...I'm glad about that.

I'm confused too chere. I'm confused how someone who had to endure the kind of shame you did....from your mother....and others....this board included....and defend it's use here. I'm not disappointed....but I admit that I'm confused because I know you beyond this board....so it's doubly confusing for me. You've participated periphereal discussions about this on other forums and email....so yeah...I'm kinda discombobulated and thrown for a loop....figured it was a semantic rather than a philosophical difference....maybe not. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

No matter what it is....semantics, philosophy, or blather....I don't give a rat's patootie....I actually LIKE seeing you express your *own* opinions and I don't care if you embrace mine, agree with mine....be authentic! We're cool chere.

I'm not feeling defensive, Star, I'm feeling confused.

Good...then we're on the same page. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I believe the newbie waywards come to MB with shame and if we don't kick their [censored] they may be stuck there forever. The ones who feel shame are most likely the ones to make it back.Feelings of shame are a strong indicator that there is something worth the effort of salvaging.

Shame is like a fever
It hurts..but actually it is your conscience fighting your sin nature. Taking away the feeling of shame is treating the symptom.Tylenol makes you FEEL better..but it doesn't actually make you well. Fever is the bodies way to fight infection.

Now certainly a fever CAN be fatal. It can go to the other extreme but I believe personally that a fever untreated is the description of a conscience seared. If you didn't respond WHEN YOU NEEDED TO you may very well have a mortal reaction.

bigk,

Again....I respect your opinion....but I'm unconvinced. The scientific communitunity also seems to be unconvinced.

Oh....and bigk....despite the lack of power that some folks claim I have <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />....or the superpowers others believe I have<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />....I can't do a damn thing if you want to kick somebody's @ss! Go after it! Just don't expect me to think it's wonderful, shut up about it, think you've got some kind of mandate from God, or that it's scientifically sound or effective...cuz I don't.

Now if I can just type "community" without typos....that would be a real feat.

PS....this has nothing to do with whether I like you and respect you or not....I do. We don't have to agree. I defend your right to say what you think.

Thanks to you too.

I consider myself part of "the scientific community" .... and guess what ..... there is seldom agreement about most things!

Edited to add your name, Star* <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />,


Nope! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />


Huh. Well, if I wasn't clear before, allow me to clear this up... shame is about (in my opinion) SELF, guilt is about OTHERS. Isn't that what I said before? Self = who I am. I've said many, many times that I HARMED MYSELF by my affair. I feel shame about that and always will. I am also ashamed that my behaviors hurt others. Do I feel it on a daily basis? No. But being here (obviously) brings it to the fore rather often... another reason that being here (or on any infidelity board, for that matter) can feel somewhat counter-productive to healing at times.


I allowed others to dictate something that in reality they had no power to dictate. Only ****I**** had the power, I just didn't realize it. Of course, my mother will always be my mother and I will most likely ALWAYS have to deal with what she says - filter it, see who it's coming from - and choose to digest or toss. Oddly enough, she isn't attempting as many 'shames' as she used to... perhaps because she realizes that they won't work in the way they had in the past? And see, that's the ticket, isn't it?

I don't agree with kicking someone when they're down, and yes, I have been kicked smack in the face at times - here and elsewhere. It hurt terribly. If someone called me a name today, I'm not saying it wouldn't sting. But you know, I KNOW THE TRUTH about myself. I hope I'd realize quite quickly that the comment is about them, not me.

Where I might have an issue is if THE COMMENT WERE TRUE. And this is where you and I will (no doubt) disagree. Let's take the word "Infidel"... I *was* one, but am not one now. If someone called me an infidel, it would sting (maybe), and I would realize that the person needed to call me that for their own reasons: NOT about me.

However, if I were currently cheating, I would need to look at myself, too.

As far as defending anything -- I defend the right of folks to respond in their own way, and here's why: It's just like life.

Yes, if we all had a candle what a bright world it would be, but THAT'S NOT REALITY.

In the real world we have to learn ways to treat people, comminicate, to cope, to protect ourselves and those we love, and to fight the bad guys, which exist everywhere. This place is not so different from real life that way. All types of people... and we have to find ways to interact, or NOT. Choices.

I'm finding my way, Star, based on what I believe - authenticity, as you aptly described. I used to think it was honesty, but that's not even the right word (another thread idea? Honesty vs. Authenticity <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />)...

I'm not the same person I was, but I'm not so far from what I was, either. Ah, the dichotomy. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Like Pepp said there is seldom agreement in the scientific community then what if a qualified expert said "shame" works??

There must be some, or at least ONE, that does????

Mr. Wondering

Well I respect your opinion too Starfish - I really do. The Bible clearly uses the word shame so I will defer to it in matters of human interaction if that's OK with you. Personally, I believe you won't care that you are guilty if you don't feel shame. I wouldn't care that I burned my hand if I didn't feel it. Lack of shame is leprosy of the soul.

I have enjoyed this discussion.

If "shame" in the short run would work to yank someone out of an adulterous affair, you would use it too??? Knowingly instead of mistakenly???

If it was effective, doesn't the urgency of ending an affair for a wayward newbie outweigh the damaging effects of the perceived and alas very short-term "shame" they may perceive or actually feel.???

Is shame debilitating in the short run????

Don't you think in the long run, the "shame" can be worked on more effectively in a recovered marriage?

If there was a so-called "shame" approach, and it were possible on a message board, couldn't it be quicker and thus more beneficial (considering time is of the essence) than a less blunt and likely a little more drawn out "nicer" approach???

These are tough questions, I think.

Mr. Wondering

Oh Star,

You dear lady. You have pushed a button. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I MUST reply.

You said
So you see why us scientists don't call these studies science. Or as a friend of mine once pointed out, most fields with the name "science" in it, aren't. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Seriously, the level of predictability or even accuracy within the topics under discussion means that it really cannot be called "science". However, these studies are surely thought provoking.

We really don't disagree. But, I do think shame leads to fear and that leads to motivation. BK just gave an example. But, what I would suggest is that you and BK are NOT in disagreement. The "shame" he is referring to in his W must be self-discovered to be effective. Whether we can externally impose shame may be of debate, but I would guess (and yes I am guessing) that if it is externally imposed, it is NOT internalized in a way that is effective because it is someone elses opinion.

While I view this as an interesting discussion please understand I do not view it as a debate, because this subject is soooo...subjective. And really I don't find your approach to be one I would object to.

Pep:

I am thinking more along the lines of "An Officer and a Gentleman." I loved that movie but not for the Richard Gere character but for Lou Gossett Jr.'s role. He got it right. Or if one goes way back, I believe the movie was called "The DI". <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Must go.

JL

Experts disagree all the time Mr. W.....show me the research!! I'll listen to "your" experts....I'm not too proud for that. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

[color:" red"]Most marriage counselors don't agree with Harley or exposure...does that make him wrong???? [/color]

In all my research I only found ONE "expert" in one article that thought shame was a good motivator....and it was IN an article written by a different expert using scientific research to REFUTE it. So....go after it. Find all the experts refuting this.

I can never figure out why I'm the only one expected to do homework....sheesh.!!!!

Hey pep!! If you represent the dissenting scientific "community"...surely you have your own research <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />....or at least some you can pull up that says "shame is good". If I had found it....if you guys had provided it....I'd look at it!! I'd consider it....I'd weigh it against the preponderance of evidence I did find, study, see....but it's not there. What's supporting the other side is so scarce I can't find it. And even if I COULD find a study like that....I've already found so many to weigh it against....I dunno....it would take alot.

NB....I understand what you're saying. I am happy to see what's happened in your life. I still think that we have a disconnect.... you see/know/understand *how* you hurt yourself by making the choices you did and call that "shame" and that's not what I'm calling "shame"....even though it's about you....it's still about guilt. You can feel guilty for something. So we're still talking apples and oranges maybe. You can know your actions were destructive to *yourself* without hating yourself and believing you don't deserve better....that's what I'm calling shame.

MrW,

These are good questions:

If "shame" in the short run would work to yank someone out of an adulterous affair, you would use it too??? Knowingly instead of mistakenly???

I think "exposure" can sometimes be a short term use of shame and guilt combined....so yeah...I'd use that knowingly for the reasons you described. I also have some reservations about the "way" I've seen some folks do it....so that's a concern too.

If it was effective, doesn't the urgency of ending an affair for a wayward newbie outweigh the damaging effects of the perceived and alas very short-term "shame" they may perceive or actually feel.???

Even exposure is best done calmly, respectfully, and within the sphere that will affect the affair. So no....I don't agree with you about "newbies" <in general>. Even if you want to invoke shame for what you see as "short term benefits" to end an affair.... I think using crass language and name calling has too many liabilities and you'd be far better using <bluntness+guilt> rather than <bluntness+shame>. The idea is ultimately to REACH the newbies who want to change right? So I'm looking for the MOST effective way....not the way that MIGHTwork/sometimes/ if people really want to change/and I think they have the right mindset or the way that worked for joeblow's wife.

Is shame debilitating in the short run????

According to stuff I looked at....yeah...supposedly shame can do alot of long term damage even it doesn't last long. The examples of this talked about how shameful incidents in people's past were still causing problems for people years and years later.....and how difficult is was to help people overcome them. We all have seen how shaming children affects them....and though we like to think that adults are so different....or SHOULD be different....research doesn't show that they are.

Don't you think in the long run, the "shame" can be worked on more effectively in a recovered marriage?

Honestly....I think shame retards recovery....If I didn't think so....why would I waste this much energy....whew. And not just for WS either.....look at the shame some folks feel about forgiving their WS?

If there was a so-called "shame" approach, and it were possible on a message board, couldn't it be quicker and thus more beneficial (considering time is of the essence) than a less blunt and likely a little more drawn out "nicer" approach???

I never argued about "LESS BLUNT"....lemme say that again...blunt is just fine. I talked about partnering Bluntness with GUILT....instead of Bluntness with SHAME. If you read the articles I posted....you'll see why I think so. Use bluntness to expose what people DO...instead of destroying their sense of self which empowers them to do the right thing.

These are tough questions, I think.

good questions. Thanks.