Are you saying Star that someone can't be ASHAMED of their ACTIONS? I vehmently disagree.

People who destroy their families in an affair should be ashamed of themselves.

great visual

thanks

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

pep

ark,

First...thank you for this post. Just because.

star..ofcourse I wouldn't...I would never call anyone those names..except maybe anyone who said I liked Texas....

hehehheheh....well since I live in Texas....the land of cheerleader killing moms....I got to be careful too. I'm working on the big hair though....got my aqua net out.

it wouldn't be PRUdent

why? Isn't that what I'm talking about? Why it isn't prudent? What isn't prudent about it?

tarring and feathering...burning at the stake....well maybe....if you twist my arm....
OK not those...

BUT I'd opt for a week in the public stockade any day....
I think penance serves a place...good for the soul

I gotta admit <honestly> that a week in the "stocks" with folks throwing tomatoes is kind of attractive to me too. I'm not happy that infidelity which causes so much damage has been decriminalized and accepted. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

and I am very very respectful of being a guest here....

Yes you are. I try to be too.


and IF and WHEN I see post with such blatant name calling I report it..
which I have done here and there...

So have I.

so star it's you VET GROUP idealogy I rally about
does this beget breaking down vets in to good vets and bad vets....

Yeah....I understand that. The word "vet" should have been excluded (maybe to "some vets and vetwannabees" hehehehehehe...it's a joke!)...I amended that to say "group of defenders" because (I realized it wasn't accurate) and because even the vets who defend lack of censorship, don't usually practice disrespect....and you're one of them. Sorry. Even though I support limiting EXTERNAL moderation (censorship)....what I'm really addressing is INTERNAL moderation....self restraint...empathy NOT sympathy. Does that make a difference? Does that make me a coddler? That's a rhetorical question....I KNOW I'm not a coddler.


saying someone should be murdered or whatever...is really just stupid stupid stuff...

You've seen that here though right? Cuz I have. I can speak specifically....but I know you know what I'm talking about.

and when someone posts such stupid...you really know how little their advice is worth....

Well I just think they probably have alot of unresolved anger...yanno? It's usually a newly betrayed spouse, or someone whose stuck in the anger stage of grief. I really do even understand that....cuz infidelity is the gift that keeps on giving....I'm just not sure how productive it is....and not just for the folks recieving that advice...but the ones giving it.

stupid posts with stupid sentiments..identify peoples stupidity...and then you know...

Again....it mostly seems painful to me....rather than stupid. It speaks to what they need to work on....rather than what the person they're posting to needs to work on.

and star ..why would I report you for your opinion...that's ludicrious....and never have I suggested that..

All of all of this is opinion....isn't it? Even the nasty stuff that some folks say. Sometimes you report it....sometimes you don't.....kinda depends on the context/percieved motivation. I know I didn't violate TOS....but it's not always TOS violations that get editted anyway...it's the stuff that's REPORTED.


I say let the stupid posts stand for the stupid
and not stupid stand for the not stupid...
and vica versa

Okay....I'm starting to giggle now....you did it...happy? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

for the wise today on one post will the group idiot on the next...etc etc etc
and
vica versa...

ain't it the truth!! The thing I'm defending TODAY....will be the thing I'm accused of tomorrow. Wait....that's already HAPPENED!!

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

BigK...people who destroy their families in an affair should be horribly ASHAMED of their infidelity...but they should value themselves ENOUGH to CHANGE their actions. Because only people with self value...value morals and commitments. if you take away their value....you take away their ability to end their destructive actions....THAT's what I believe. Help them value themselves.....that's the key to change.

I doubt I'll ever become "active" enough to really offer much feedback to anyone, but it's always interesting to see that the more things change, the more they stay the same. Sad, but not unexpected. I was just a little amazed at her wanting to rekindle something she last faced when learning to drive... I mean, I know affair is fantasy almost by definition, but this is pre-meditated fantasy the likes of which I hadn't seen in ages.

Besides... the reminder of Chris needed to be called out... I noticed he hadn't posted in a long time, and was wondering how he was.

I do hope wantout comes back, and truly seeks help. Best help: No contact letter and turn her back on her old crush forever.

Interestingly, the thread changed into one regarding posting styles... of course, as the alltime Master of Tact and Diplomacy <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> I found this amusing.

My limited knowledge of MrsWondering from this thread reminds me of me... (not to be insulting, MrsW). Former WS, no coddling... I like the style. Hope your recovery winds up better than mine (although I will say that my eventual divorce years later is one of the best things that ever happened to me).

Whew... I could just ramble onnnnn...

Yo WhoDat -

Howyaduin! That's a qreeting, not necessarily a question.

Ya know, I was kinda wondering about Chris myself.

Hey, hows come you can't use your original "name" and you hafta reregister?

Old farts like you outta be grandfathered. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

WAT

Star - they should be ashamed of their infidelity and ashamed of themselves. That leads to change in my experience.

Shame is not self esteem or self worth although these tend to take a hit when you have an affair.

And for a change I agree with WAT - it's all semantics in my opinion.

I agree that WS's should be ashamed of themselves.

For me, it was a complete break from what I know was right and honorable... and my integrity was in question the moment I chose to have an affair.

AFTERWARDS, I had to REBUILD my self-esteem and integrity... and not just in others eyes, but in my OWN.

I understand, from a psychological standpoint, that shame is seen as negative. I've also heard that guilt is a useless emotion. Both, to me, can be useful for MOVING *away from* (repenting) from sin (for lack of a better phrase).

I was ashamed of MYSELF for my choice. I felt guilty for what I did to others by my choice.

I don't think they're interchangable, but I think both come from WITHIN.

so do I

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

not only that

but joy comes from within as well

a gift from "you know who"

NB ... you seem to be a pretty happy camper lately.... what's cookin?

Pep

For a change?

Don't be a wuss and speak up when you don't agree!

You're allowed to be wrong. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

WAT

Nothin' on the stove, Pepperband.

I just figured out some stuff, for myself, ya know?

... and I'm sharing it...

PS: Honestly, something you said helped me out with this. I've tried to remember exactly what you said - actually typed it a couple of times - wrongly. It doesn't even matter now... because whatever it was, I took it to heart and it's helped me become **this**! So, thank you. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I am a perpetual student. I love learning. And you know what? Almost everyone I've ever met has something valuable to teach me.

I love that!

LOL WAT.

NB

you do seem transformed

thinking about something you said .... guilt and shame are God-given as much as joy and happiness are ... not the actual emotions, but the possibility of any emotion ... is a gift

those who function sans guilt and/or shame .... are often criminals

guilt and shame have a purpose .... much like pain response .... aversion training, ya know?

sin feels sooooooooo good .... there must be a counter-balance imbeded within us ... or else we'd all run amok and live far more chaotic lives

IM MY OPINION <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Pep

bigK...I respect your opinion, but don't agree. There is an incredible amount of scientific research being done on shame, that's a big part of what my opinion is based on....so we'll just have to agree to disagree.

NB...this must a new revelation....because I'm remembering some convos where you spoke differently about shame. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

I agree, LMAO WAT!!!

Star*fish, I just want to say I agree with all of your posts on this thread and I also enjoy reading your posts in general. Thank you. As betrayedinjersey has said…you should have your OWN board! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Hi, Star*,

The last six months or so, I have been trying to find a place of balance... for me. I have been actively searching my soul to see what I believe about a lot of things.

I have spent my life (or at least much of it) allowing *others* to dictate what *I* feel. I will no longer allow that.

Nobody outside of myself can make me feel anything.

Have you read don Miguel Ruiz's The Four Agreements? It is EXCELLENT. One of the agreements, which I alluded to before, is this:

Don't take anything personally - what other people say or do isn't because of you, it's because of their own life experiences.

This is a watershed concept for me.

Allowing others to determine my worth is dangerous and lazy. It's MY JOB, not theirs.

If you're going to ask me if I can still feel shame or guilt when, say, my *mother* says certain things -- yes, of course. Mothers, sigh. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> But still, even good ol' Mom couldn't move me if I didn't think it MYSELF first.

Not taking things personally doesn't mean I won't have a REACTION. It's what I do with it after (Action) that will be different because I realize that Mom's comment isn't about me, it's about her.

I explained, above, how I perceive shame and guilt (shame about how it affects me, guilt about how it affects others). That's just my interpretation. I didn't look anything up in the dictionary or ask anyone -- it's just how I feel. If both come from within, nobody else can determine the outcome of the FEELINGS. You, and you alone, must DO whatever it is to remove the feelings -- possibly stopping the action that caused it, apologizing to those you harmed, and dealing with the consequences, which may go on for years (as in my case).

I will always feel shame for my chioce to have an affair. If I didn't, I'd tell people about it and boast about my ability to dupe my (then)H and ruin my family.

And I will probably always feel some guilt about what it did to my family (though it lessons through the years, as my family and I heal).

I don't see a problem with how I think. However, I'm sure my mother (the Ph.D. Psychotherapist) might! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

nb,

The last six months or so, I have been trying to find a place of balance... for me. I have been actively searching my soul to see what I believe about a lot of things.

I have spent my life (or at least much of it) allowing *others* to dictate what *I* feel. I will no longer allow that.

Nobody outside of myself can make me feel anything.

I'm so happy for you NB....I know how debilitating shame has been in your life. It sounds to me like you've learned to "value" yourself and trust yourself. That isn't a journey I expect that you'd be making if you were drowning in shame or feeling defensive. Looking back at shame from a place of value gives you a different perspective.

Lots of research is being done about shame. Brene Brown, PhD, LWSM did extensive research about the roles of guilt and shame. She says this:


Have you read don Miguel Ruiz's The Four Agreements? It is EXCELLENT. One of the agreements, which I alluded to before, is this:

Don't take anything personally - what other people say or do isn't because of you, it's because of their own life experiences.

Yes, I loved this book. One of the other things he says is to use the power of your word for truth and love. As you mention, he says that our perceptions of others are merely reflections of ourselves.

But just because he arms us against the words of others, and helps promote personal value....doesn't mean he doesn't recognize the power that other people's words can have on us....nor does it mean he doesn't "charge" us to use the power of our words to help rather than harm.

This is a watershed concept for me.

Allowing others to determine my worth is dangerous and lazy. It's MY JOB, not theirs.

Yes it is. I often say offense is taken not given. However, what sort of standard do I set for myself? I can't impose restrictions on what anyone says to others, but I can set standards of compassion and ethics about whether I reflect on myself with the words I choose to use. If I believe that words reflect upon the person using them....in essence....shaming others....shames me.

I've seen the PET scans of people who feel fear, shame and anger. Their neocortex (our new brain) isn't even lit up. Activity is in our limbic system (fight or flight). At one time....we were wired that way to react to real threats....like saber toothed tigers.....today life threats are rare, but shame (loss of self) triggers the same brain functions. For most of us in the modern world, the biggest threat we feel is loss of self.

Feeling personally empowered and valuable is what prompted your change....why do you think it's going to be so different for others? Do you think that people involved in affairs value themselves? How is shaming them going to improve that dynamic?

If you're going to ask me if I can still feel shame or guilt when, say, my *mother* says certain things -- yes, of course. Mothers, sigh. But still, even good ol' Mom couldn't move me if I didn't think it MYSELF first.

If everyone was in the same place you are....years away from the incidents that created shame...and personally empowered....we wouldn't be having this discussion.

Not taking things personally doesn't mean I won't have a REACTION. It's what I do with it after (Action) that will be different because I realize that Mom's comment isn't about me, it's about her.

Good for you....I wish more folks were in that place....however, I still say that shaming others, shames me and doesn't empower anyone.

I explained, above, how I perceive shame and guilt (shame about how it affects me, guilt about how it affects others). That's just my interpretation. I didn't look anything up in the dictionary or ask anyone -- it's just how I feel.

NB....all emotions are "within" including lots of unhealthy ones. The question is "where" within. Where do you process those emotions? I think that matters.

If both come from within, nobody else can determine the outcome of the FEELINGS. You, and you alone, must DO whatever it is to remove the feelings -- possibly stopping the action that caused it, apologizing to those you harmed, and dealing with the consequences, which may go on for years (as in my case).

Well, you seem to be talking about guilt not shame. Most people feel as though they can make reparations for the things they've done. But psychiatrists all over the world have hard time getting people past shame. Look at the shame associated with sexual abuse for instance. Many victims are paralyzed by shame for something they didn't even do and have no control over. Shame is not the same construct as guilt....WAT not withstanding. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I will always feel shame for my chioce to have an affair. If I didn't, I'd tell people about it and boast about my ability to dupe my (then)H and ruin my family.

Yes....you will always feel shame for your CHOICE....but if you felt shame for who you ARE <right now>....I doubt you'd be where you are. I think you DID feel shame about who you were....I think shame was a crippling emotion for you in the past from the things I know. Shame doesn't empower you NB....and it doesn't produce change. Change occurs in the neocortex....where your logic, spirituality, creativity, language function resides. Shame triggers your animal brain. Folks can dismiss this as a bunch of pop psychology....but there are dozens of studies that are no longer on the "fringe" of science....but in the forefront. Shame is the subject of so many seminars and psyciatric workshops....it's just amazing.

Here's a link to an article about one of them....and since we liken affairs to addictions...it's particularly relevent.

http://www.dentalplans.com/Dental-Health-Articles/Shame,-Not-Guilt,-Related-to-Substance-Abuse-Problems.asp

[color:" blue"]Shame, Not Guilt, Related to Substance Abuse Problems


Findings from a collaboration between scientists at the University at Buffalo's Research Institute on Addictions (RIA) and George Mason University in Fairfax, Va., have established the importance of distinguishing between feelings of shame and guilt when providing treatment for substance abuse and in developing substance-abuse prevention programs.

According to Ronda Dearing, Ph.D., RIA research scientist and lead author on the study published in the August 2005 issue of Addictive Behaviors, shame and guilt -- or a personal tendency toward either emotion -- have important implications regarding misuse of alcohol and drugs.

The study included three groups of participants with different levels of alcohol and drug problems. Two groups were primarily female college students about 20 years of age. The third group was comprised of predominantly male inmates from a metropolitan area jail who were, on average, 31 years of age.

Shame is the tendency to feel bad about yourself following a specific event. It appears that individuals who are prone to shame when dealing with a variety of life problems may also have a tendency to turn toward alcohol and other drugs to cope with this feeling.

Guilt, or the tendency to feel bad about a specific behavior or action, was largely unrelated to substance-use problems. This is one of the first studies to scientifically validate the importance of shame versus guilt and their relation to alcohol and drugs.

Clinically, this study suggests a point of intervention for the treatment of substance-use problems. Specifically, counselors and other medical providers might effectively work with clients toward decreasing shame-proneness and enhancing guilt-proneness.

"Whether or not shame is a cause of problematic substance use," Dearing explained, "other problems that go hand-in-hand with shame such as anger or interpersonal difficulties are sufficient justification for implementing shame-reduction interventions into treatment. Successfully reducing shame is likely to result in better treatment outcomes."

Supported by a $585,000 award from the National Institute on Alcohol Abuse and Alcoholism, Dearing is investigating help-seeking for alcohol problems, specifically whether attitudes about alcohol and alcohol treatment predict how or whether people seek help for alcohol problems.

Dearing wants to understand how people who seek alcohol- and substance-use treatment are different from other people who have similar problems, but do not seek help. In addition, she hopes to learn whether a proneness to shame is a risk factor for drug and alcohol problems and, secondly, whether the tendency to experience guilt is a protective factor against the same problems. [/color]



And I will probably always feel some guilt about what it did to my family (though it lessons through the years, as my family and I heal).

Yes...again....something you "did".

I don't see a problem with how I think. However, I'm sure my mother (the Ph.D. Psychotherapist) might!

I don't see a problem with how you think either NB. You sound pretty healthy to me. That doesn't mean I agree with your thoughts on shame though. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

((((((((((NB)))))))))))

Well, I'm gonna answer it anyway! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> I'm doing really, really well... pretty much everyone I know has commented on how much more relaxed and happy I have been in the last year. I have been enjoying my life, working on my house, and riding my new motorcycle. Just enjoying life, and my kids.



Heh... I agree, Dave. I don't think my original registration was old enough to break the database like K's and give me a 1969 registration date, but it's close. The reason I can't use it was because when I considered myself "done" here 4-5 years ago, I cut the ties and changed my password to gobbledegook and deleted the email account it was attached to.

When I started having (unrelated) troubles again, I emailed Tempest to see if it could be reset and sent to a new address... unfortunately, it couldn't be done. So here's the noew one.

Reading around a bit, it looks like I have found a few new stories to follow up on... I just wonder what happened to some of the other oldies, besides Chris.

Glad to hear you're doing well.


Yea, I understand K gave the initial ideas to Al Gore so he could invent the internet.

WAT