This is something I would give alot of thought, Gale. I suspected she was using your drinking to rationalize her affairs. This is fairly common in alcoholic marriages. The spouse of the alcoholic will abuse the alcoholic and he/she takes it for years on end because he feels he deserves it. The thinking is that "since I am so bad, then she is entitled to be bad and I deserve it." That is NOT how it works. She is no more entitled to have affairs than you are to abuse her with your alcoholism.

Nor are you obliged to stay with her if you decide this won't work. I am not trying to sway you one way or the other - only you know what you can handle - but if you stay with her it should be because you think there is a sane future in your marriage, NOT because you feel guilty and believe you are OBLIGED to forgive her, no matter what.

With multiple affairs there is much more to forgive, Gale. And many cannot do it. A serial cheater often cheats because they are addicted to affairs. This is very hard to resolve and can only be resolved with a major committment and a major LIFESTYLE change on the part of the cheater. This is the only possible way your marriage CAN recover, so keep this in mind. Just ending her affair and coming back won't be enough.

Here is a quote from Dr. Harley about repeat affairs:

From Dr Harley's article Coping with Infidelity: Part 4 Overcoming Resentment:


Quote:
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In fact, when a couple goes through a recovery after an affair, and then experience another affair, the resentment is often more intense and more persistent after the second recovery. With multiple affairs and recoveries, resentment is almost impossible to overcome. But then, in those cases I usually feel that the emotional reaction of resentment is not irrational at all. Emotions are telling the person that it's not a good idea to continue the relationship, and I would agree.

I understand what you are saying, and I have been giving it alot of thought. As I said above, I have been imagining the future without her in my life, and I find a lot of positives. At the same time, I love this woman, and I want to give her every chance to want to get better.

As I have begun this journey to recovery, I have come to see her problem is no different than my own. I know that some here would probably disagree with me, but really she and I have the same problem, we just use different poison. My drinking problem is not really so much a drinking problem as a thinking problem. Same goes for her. If there is hope for me to live a sane and happy life, there has to be hope for her too. I do want to help her find her road to recovery, but I can only do so much. It is up to her to get sick and tired of being sick and tired. I have done my best to help her hit bottom, I have done my best not to enable her. This is why I am so upset about giving her any money. I don't want her to suffer, but I must make suffering her only option. It is only through the pain that I saw the way out. I believe that is her pathway as well. Unfortunately some people never learn. I can hope and pray that my efforts will make a difference, and then I must step back, and take care of myself and my son as best I can. In a way, I need to follow the advice in the chapter "to the wives" in the big book. I just wish there was a group of recovering cheaters out there that could help intervene.

I "KNOW" that God can see us through anything if we have faith, and turn our will and our lives over to him. I KNOW that God is working in me, and I feel his presence, and his love in my heart. I KNOW that with his love and guidance, we can rebuild a wonderful marriage if she really wants it to happen. What I don't KNOW is if it will happen. That is all up to her. It is out of my hands, even though I rack my brain trying to think of anything else I can possibly do. I end up simply asking God to look after her, and to soften her heart.

Yes I do feel guilty sometimes. It is too easy for me to want to blame myself for what my wife is doing. When this happens I remind myself that she has made her own choices in life, and I am not responsible. I didn't meet her needs. That is a fact. She didn't really meet my needs either, but I am willing to give her a chance. Since the affairs started so long ago, I never did anything right. She never did anything right either. It is as if the first affair never ended. This is all just one long affair just as I have had one long drunk that lasted twenty years. There have been different players introduced to the scene, but the play is the same.

So basically, I am keeping the door to forgiveness open for the time being, but I am not staking my life on the outcome. And I am really really really lonely. So keeping the door open will become harder as time goes by. I pray that she gets her head out of her a** soon.

So she calls me on my way to work and tells me that OM is going to go see his father this weekend, so can she take our son down there to spend the weekend with her? I can't believe that she actually thinks that I can trust her to tell me the truth. When I said that I don't trust that he won't be there, she said "I wouldn't lie to you"! I don't want to be mean, but her brother was a pathologic lier, and I believe that she puts him to shame these days.

I left a message with my lawyer, but he is in court, and I don't know if he will get back with me. I just don't know what to do, because I get this feeling that if I don't let her take him, she will try to use it against me in court. I cannot deny her access to him, but I don't think it is right for her to take him there.

She mentioned taking him to see her mother, and I told her that I would feel better if they were to stay at her mom's house instead of OM's. She didn't reply to that, and she finally got pi**ed off and ended the call.

I just know in my gut that this man will either be there when they arrive, or he will come home before they leave. She wants so desperately to involve this man in our son's life. She mentioned that he is taking his kids to see his dad. She wants my son to get to know these kids because in her fantasy world, they are all going to make this wonderful brady bunch family that is going to live happily ever after. I am trying to prevent this kind of thing for as long as I can, in the hopes that the affair will die before the divorce is final.

I want to protect my son, and I cannot do that if I let her take him there. Even if I let her take him to her mom's house, I don't trust that she won't end up at OM's. So I am stuck.

Up to this point, I haven't said anything bad about the OM to my son. I haven't wanted to put ideas in his head, or be accused of trying to turn him against his mother. I just feel that even if she swears not to take him to OM's, that I should talk to him, and make sure that he understands that he is not to go there. Tell him that if she does take him there that he needs to tell me. I just am not too sure how to do that without scaring him. I don't know if he understands that mommy's friend is anything but a friend to daddy. I want him to understand that this man is not his friend either, but how do you tell an eight year old these things.

I shouldn't have to tell him these things, and I hoped to simply shield him from the whole thing in the hopes that it would die. For that reason, I don't want to let her take him anywhere. I just fear that it will work against me in the long run.

Gale,

I told my EX WW (I have custody of our now 19 month old son) on a Sunday at 1:30 PM that she could keep him an extra night and part of the next day. This was after her asking not only on her behalf but inserting my step daughter (daughter to me) into the request (low, low, low) as well. I gave in against my own best judgment and against my attorney's best advice and said okay. Keep in mind this is my time that I was "loaning" in essence. I told her that one caveat for this time and other times was that this extra time was for EX WW and step daughter to bond with son and in no way or shape or form was to include the lunatic (my nickname for him). She agreed at 1:30 PM in the afternoon and at 6:00 PM I receive a call from lunatic's STBXW (who has spoken with their daughter moments earlier) and found that my crazy, entitled, EX WW had taken both children to the lunatic's home for swimming. This is a span of less than 5 hours since our discussion.

Needless to say things have changed a lot since that time a few weeks back and any pity I felt for her not seeing our son more ofter has turned instead to disdain. I won't make this mistake again. The mistake of trusting her. She cannot be trusted (what part don't I get about this).

So in closing trust her to do the very opposite of what you want or request and nothing more. This is more likely than not. Is she going to have son around OM? I would bet my next check that she will. Now, what you could do is ask that she not have him around the OM (request her sign something if possible, she probably will decline) and then if you decide to let him go I would possibly enlist someone to track her and get photos of her actions while your son is in her care. Most judges frown on affairs in general, dating while still married, shacking up, emotionally scarring the kids, and lying. You could perhaps get her doing most or all of these and use it in court.

If she really wants to see him she can either come to your house for a visit or go stay at her mothers. Your SON should never be dragged into the affair LAIR or the affair. I would lay down the law on this, Gale. She is trying to test your limits. Sticking to your boundary here sends the message that her living situation is UNFIT for children.

Dr. Harley would tell you to tell him the TRUTH. That his mother is in an ILLICIT, IMMORAL affair with another man. The OM is a bad man who is not appropriate for children. Children can deal with the truth, Gale, they CANNOT deal with lies. Your son has probably already sensed something is very wrong here and if you don't validate his feelings, he will be morally confused and begin to doubt his instincts about right and wrong. He NEEDS moral guidance right now and if you don't take the lead here, he will grow up and who*e around because your silence conveys complicity.

So, go tell the boy the truth. That way he will know not to trust the OM.

That's the way I feel about it too. I just want to be sure that the judge won't see it differently when this gets to court. She texted me asking for the verdict and I told her I won't know till tomorrow morning. She sent back with "That's nice. It's my son too and you have total control of him. I guess his mom has no control. I wish I could be on your high horse. You drank all his life and still I have no say."
I didn't reply, but I sure thought about alot. For one, I thought: yes I drank alright, and she cheated. I have stopped drinking.

I am supposed to call my lawyer at 7:30 tomorrow morning. I will ask him what he thinks I should do, and I will take his advise. If it cannot be construed that I am trying to keep her away from our son, then I will insist that she take him somewhere else. Of course if she would move back to our town like she insists she wants to, there would be no problem.

I am thinking it is time to write a planb letter. Doesn't mean that I will give it to her right now, but I might as well get started on it. I love this woman very much, but I must concentrate on myself and my son. I really don't expect that she is coming back up here.

Gale, keep in the mind that the attorney doesn't give a rats [censored] if your son is exposed to her sleazy affair at all. He is only interested in the path of LEAST RESISTANCE. The WELFARE OF YOUR SON LIES WITH YOU. If your son gets dragged into her sleazy affair, the buck will stop with you, NOT YOUR ATTORNEY. Your attorney does not answer to God for your son's welfare, YOU DO.

You are the FATHER here and it is up to you to decide what is best for your son. If I were the judge and I found out you allowed your 8 yr old son to stay at the AFFAIR LAIR when you didn't have to, I would wonder how much you really cared about the boys welfare. You are the only sane person left here who can protect him. SO PROTECT HIM, Gale!

You most certainly are not trying to keep her from her son, you are trying to keep your son protected from her affair. You have told your wife she can come visit him there or take him to her mothers.

Protect your son, Gale!


This is all very manipulative and I hope you dont fall for it. Of course she has no say if she wants to drag your boy into her affair.

Gale,

Listen to me. Your son already knows. He may not know the whole scope and all the details, but he knows.
My son was just barely older than yours. He could see it in my eyes. I am sure he had also heard conversations.
He is waiting for you to come to him and include him in this.
He needs his fears to be validated just like you needed yours to be validated.
When I was feeling at my lowest and I could not even function as a father let alone anything else, my son came up to me and put his arm around me and said," Daddy if you ever need to talk to me I will listen to you" I went to total meltdown at that point.
If he had any doubts about what was going on, he knew that day!
This may be training day for the future of your son and any relationship he enters into.
Gale, find a good definition for adultery and sit him down and start there. Then state your goals for protecting him. He needs to understand that marriages are not throw away and these types of action are not acceptable. Be the one that molds him, not abandons him.

My lawyer reminded me that until we reach some sort of custody agreement, she could take our son and not bring him back. So, I have decided not to let her take him this weekend. She never called me to find out what my decision was though. My lawyer said he would contact her lawyer, and he said that if she called to tell her to contact her attorney. Her lawyer sent a letter and in it she said that she doesn't think there is anything wrong with my son going to OM's house. I made sure that my lawyer understands that I have to answer to a higher power than any judge. I figure I will hear from her today, I just hope she doesn't show up expecting to take our son somewhere.

Why not call her up and tell her she can't take the son to the OM's? Face her head on, Gale!

Well, I didn't get much sleep today because she calls me up and wants to take our son to OM's house. She said her lawyer told her that I cannot stop her from doing so. Then we were off to the races with me calling my lawyer, and WW threatening me with the cops. My lawyer said that without a court order, there was little we could do to stop her from taking him. I was starting to think that there might be a big commotion at the school this afternoon.

I must admit that I didn't worry too much about LB's while I was talking to her, but I wasn't mean at all. I told her what I think, and I told her that I am protecting our son from her affair. Finally, I reached a compromise with her. I agreed to let her take our son to a hotel for the weekend. I agreed to let her use the company card to pay for it, and I will pay the bill with "our" money. I am quite certain she will not try to take him and not bring him back. If she would do that, my lawyer assured me, she would be in a lot of trouble.

My son was happy that he is getting to see his mother. I want him to see her. I did have a talk with him though. I told him how the OM is not my friend, and that OM wants mommy to divorce daddy, so he can marry mommy. I tried to explain why this behaviour was wrong, but I am not sure if I got him to understand all of it. I expect that he will say something to WW this weekend, and she will probably get mad, but I don't really care. I told him that he is not allowed to go to OM's house. If she takes him there I believe my son will tell me.

WW has been talking to her friend and I guess she is the talk of the town. Her friend told her that everyone is talking about her, but nobody is talking about me. I guess that makes her angry as well, seeing as I am the reason she has had to do all of these crazy things.(lol) Really I don't want her to be the talk of the town, and I don't want anyones pity. I think she told me because people are questioning our son's paternity, and I sorta think she is attempting to work an angle on me. I think she believes that she can convince me that it would be better for our son to live somewhere else because of people talking. I would be happy to agree with her if we all moved away somewhere. But as it is right now, my son and I are staying put.

I lost control with my WW today, and I am beside myself. She brought our son home this afternoon. I went to help her carry his stuff in, and the first words out of her mouth were "you win". I'm like, win what? Seems that our son hates her now, because she is not coming back home to live with us, and somehow it is because I have turned him against her. She concentrates totally on her misconception of what I think about her. She does not listen to a word I say. I got fed up with it. I told her that she abandoned him, and when she denied it, I told her that it looks that way to him. I told her that she has lied and lied to that boy, and I can understand why he is mad at her. She insists that it is all about me trying to control her and her life. I told her that I am not trying to control her. I said that if she wants to have her affair to go have it. I don't need her crap anymore. I told her that I am protecting our son from her affair just like she protected him from my drinking. I said that I am sick and tired of being held responsible for everything that is wrong in her life. I then told her to get the *ell out of my house. Oh, and when I said all of these things I was yelling. That is the part that is killing me right now. I am not ashamed of what I said, but I am ashamed of the way I said it. I yelled at her just like when I was drinking, and I saw it in her face. This is why she is afraid to come back, and I don't blame her. I told her that I am not trying to get her to come back. I told her that she does need to come back to town so she can be with her son. She won't do it. She hates this town, and everything about it. She wouldn't even do it for her son, but I am the bad guy because I won't let her take our son into her affair. I am so sick right now I could throw up.

I have been thinking about what our MC said about passive aggressive behavior, and she might be on to something. Of course even she is telling me to end this marriage. Perhaps it is time I start to listen to the people around me. I have wanted to hold on to hope, and I still am. I don't want to give up on her yet. I am coming to accept that it probably will not work out, but I still hold out a little. She is just so deep into her depression, and her blaming me for absolutely everything. She said that all she wants to do is die. I told her that is not healthy thinking. But still everything is me not her.

Another day in paradise I guess.

Gale, I suspect she was HOPING to get you mad enough to yell at her. And unfortunately, you fell for it. Every time you explode at her, you give her the much needed ammunition to use against you. She has demonized you and as long as you play the part so well, she doesn't have to look at her own self. See how that works in her favor?

I know exactly how hard it is to NOT react, but here is the thing, Gale. You CAN respond in a civil and thoughtful way without yelling and carrying on. That way, you dont hand her a loaded gun to use against you.

But, I think you are smart enough to realize this. Please guard against the next time she comes over because we need for her to see you as an attractive alternative.

Why does she keep saying she wants to die? She seems to throw that around quite liberally. Does she really mean this or is she saying this to manipulate you?

Yes, I am certain that she wanted me to get mad. That is why I was so upset with myself. The day after I filed, I took everything that she had to throw at me, and I met it all with love and understanding. Yesterday, I dropped the ball, and I feel like I just lost everything that I gained in three months. I told myself that I would never yell at her again, and I did. I am having a hard time forgiving myself for that.

I guess I just had my fill of her blaming me. I did quite well for a while, she got in her car, and started to leave. Then she stopped and came back in to see our son once more before she left. That is when I got mad at her. She managed to get me to give her the proof she needs to know that I really haven't changed at all. I handed it to her on a silver platter. I haven't been able to shake the feeling that I sealed our fate.

I went to my meeting last night, but I didn't get much out of it. I think that I was so occupied with my misery that I couldn't listen very well. I was really feeling sorry for myself. I spoke with my higher power alot last night. I was asking for peace and guidance. I did feel a little better by morning.

I think the thing I am upset about the most is that she won't even consider coming back to town for our son. I told her that It's not about the marriage, it's about him needing his mother.

I don't know how serious she is about wanting to die, but I think that kind of threat should always be considered dangerous. I fear that she really might do something crazy. I was worried yesterday after she left. I was waiting for a call about her having a wreck or something.

I think the important thing here is to remember is that it really doesn't matter what you do, Gale, you CANNOT CONTROL HER. And i think the sooner you accept that, the sooner you will have some peace. You are doing the best you can with what you have to work with. It might not ever matter how well you can control your temper, she may not ever come back. On the other hand, if she wanted to come back, wild horses would not prevent her.

So, dust yourself off, my good friend, and start over tomorrow. You are doing extremely well and have much to be thankful for. Give yourself some credit! You have your boy there with you and that is the best place for him to be. Get off that pity pot and get back to work, Gale. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Thanks, I need that. Guess I just wanted to feel sorry for myself for a little bit. In a way, I just want to put her out of my mind, and concentrate on myself. I just can't seem to do that. Something always comes up.

Right now, I can't stop thinking about what I will do in another two weeks when she wants to take my son to OM's again. I can't help but think that I am going to have to let him go there sooner or later. From what she told me, she isn't even going to try to get a place up here. Of course our agreement will include the stipulation that OM is not to be around our son. But that agreement has yet to be finalized. I must find a way to let some of this go.

It has made me realize that perhaps I haven't completed step 3. Or maybe I keep getting in the way. I will meditate on this tonight, and I will read chapter 5 of the big book again. I have just let myself doubt too much these last couple of days.

Thanks again for the vote of confidence. I know I'll make it. Still sober!!

Hey Gale, the problem with her visitations is HERS. It is up to her to find a way to visit your son without taking him to the OM's lair. Let HER worry about it! You shouldn't have to come up with money for a hotel. Let her figure this all out. And if she doesn't have it all figured out, then she can either not see him at all, just take him for dinner or visit him at your home. But, she is a big girl and she can figure it out!

Unfortunately, I have to expect that the judge may not see it that way. My insistance that she not take him to OM's, even though the man was not home, could be viewed as a petty reaction from a sore loser. Granted, anyone that views it that way is sick themselves. I am going to insist that we add the immediate family of OM to the list of restrictions on the agreement, and I also want to demand a contingency about the spousal support to only be paid if she comes back to our town. For this, I will most likely have to give something. If I can get the restrictions in place, then I may have to stop resisting her taking him there, but then the OM, and his kids, will have to go somewhere. I don't know if my son will want to go there either. He is pretty angry with her right now. I also know that I will still want to prevent his going there.

WW actually texted me last night. This is the first that she has engaged me in conversation for a while. She asked if our son was still tying his shoes. She finally got him taught over the weekend. I told her yes hes is, and I love to see it. She later said that she misses him so much, thinks about him all the time, and she did not abandon him. I thought about telling her to prove it to him and come back to town, but I didn't say anything. I figure I will let her come to that conclusion.

I talked to my higher power alot last night, and I felt better this morning. I am going to a meeting tonight, and I am resolved to get my butt in the seats more. I prayed that he help take my obsession away, and to let her go so I can concentrate on myself. I feel that if I don't, there is no hope with or without her.