I posted to you guys about contacting the OM. I changed my screen name, as I have sorta let enough slip that she might look for me here, and that was an old name I used to use.

Well, I went and told her that I know who he is and I know where he lives. Since the revelation of the affair in june, my WW has kept the OM's identity a secret. I am not sure about what she felt she gained by this other than it helped to maintain the fantasy of her affair. I asked why it was so important to torture me with this secret, and she just gives me a bunch of carp about what HE might do if he felt threatened, and she doesn't want me to contact him.

I know that I was afraid of the s**tstorm that would follow, but with your help, I was prepared, and was able to remain quite calm and cool throughout her tirade. MAN WAS SHE PI**ED! I remember that I kept telling myself that I love this woman. I kept telling her too. That is not all I said, but I made sure I got it in there. She of course did not want to hear it, and I didn't press the issue. I informed her that everything that I am doing is because I love her and I am trying to save our marriage and our family.

She was full of threats and accusations. Funny how she seemed so preoccupied with HOW I found out! Just kept asking me questions. Did I have her followed? Did I hire a PI? Was I breaking in her house and snooping? I told her that someday, if we make it through this, I will tell her and we can have a good laugh about it.

She really really really tried to scare me away from contacting this man. Tried to use what she thought was her strongest threat. I nullified the threat pretty easily, and she was crestfallen. Not that I want to hurt her, but I don't want her to think that she can do something that she can't.

I only slipped once, and started lovebusting, but I caught myself. Basically called her a liar. (if you think that was bad, you should hear what she was calling me!) Bad enough though that she brought it up the next day. Gotta remember NO lovebusting!

After a half hour of "conversation" I had to leave for work. Pretty well left her alone, but later that evening she texts me and starts trying to pick a fight. Told me she knows how I know, and even the name of the PI I hired to find out. I didn't play along, and that made her mad. Text went back and forth for a while, and finally she left me alone for the night.

Next morning she calls me early to wake me up. When I told her I was already awake, she was upset, because she wanted to make me mad. But then we started talking. After about an hour, she started to calm down. After another hour, she wasn't mad at me anymore. I was able to explain that I love her, and I am just doing what I have to do to save this family.

Of course everything is not all peaches and cream around here at all. It did help that the OM was out of state all week. I was able to spend a lot of time talking to her every day this week, and hopefully install some love units. She is very afraid of me. She does have reasons to be, because after her affairs nine years ago, I didn't handle things right, and I became verbally abusive. I have robbed her love bank dry, and my challenge to save this family is only made harder by this fact.

She doesn't trust the changes I have made, and that is not only understandable, but I would expect anyone to do the same. She thinks that I am being nice to her so I can set her up for a big whammy. She doesn't trust that I trully want to love her, and protect her, and save our marriage.
I am trying to be as patient as I can, and keep trying to show her genuine care and concern.

Now the OM is coming home tomorrow. She is going down there to see him. I of course am having a bad time about it, but I tried not to show it. I couldn't stop myself before I told her to tell him "Happy Birthday". She says "that was a slam" I said "yes, but not at you, it was aimed at him" I just want to make sure he knows that I know something about him. I want it to make him squirm. Of course this is wishfull thinking, but what the heck.

I hope my revelation is doing some good. Some input would help. She couldn't look me in the eye this evening. I really hope that it is guilt and remorse hard at work in her, and I really hope that it does some damage to her weekend, and her relationship. I really want her to believe that I intend to contact this man at some point. I want him to think so too. I want him to be afraid that I am digging into his history, because I know there is something bad there. In fact, I am really thinking about having the PI do the extra work.

My wife thinks I am going to dig up a bunch of dirt on this guy and then present it to her thinking that it will make her want to leave him, and come back to me. I on the other hand will use anything I can to have him arrested, or found by whoever he is hiding from. I know better than to try to argue her away from him. I kinda think that this guy may have some anger issues. I really hope he does, because I want to make him mad.

Which brings me to my question. I really don't have a lot of information to do a decent exposure. I have his mom's number, but all attempts have resulted in answering machine. I also don't just want to expose to her, and then wait to get more. I did find a forwarded email with about a dozen addresses from his address book. Thought that maybe a small email campain wouldn't hurt. What do you think? These people may or may not be close to him, but it couldn't hurt could it?

Also, I am not sure if i should just do it tonight, or wait till the end of the week and see how it goes with just my revelation at work. Our son's birthday is this week, and I really don't want to ruin it for him by having his mother so mad at me that she makes it impossible to have fun.

So, do I do it now? or wait till the end of the week?

You're already in right now, just let it fly, good and hard.

As far as his mom is concerned, that is not necessarily any great help, other people might count a lot more.
You just might need to keep a baseball bat handy behind your front door. Park your car a block away from home for the next couple of weeks....

Gale, I would not wait to expose this affair. Who are potential exposure targets? You mentioned his mother, that is a GREAT exposure target. What about a wife, his employer? Her parents, siblings and your parents would also be good targets. I would not wait to expose the affair.

Is she openly and brazenly going to meet the OM while living with you? If this is the case, I would expose the affair NOW. Tell her how hurtful and disrespectful her actions are to you and your son. You cannot stop her but you could GO WITH HER. And perhaps even CALL the OM and have a discussion with him. Ask him what his intentions are with your wife and if he knows you are together and have a child.

Your job is to cause as much conflict as possible in her affair!

Please do not show concern and patience with her AFFAIR. DO NOT pretend like this is anything less than extremely painful and disrespectful to you and your son. Plan A does not stand for APPEASEMENT.

All I have are his mother and brother, and a list of email addresses that may just be internet friends. I don't know their connection to him, or influence, but I can hope that they may drop him a line, and tell him some jerk is bugging them about some affair he is supposed to be having. Am I right in my thinking when I see the exposure as not really influencing them to stop but to really just p**s them off? Maybe so I can become the topic of all discussion between them? I really hope so, because like I said, I want to make him mad.

We are not together. She moved out last winter. He came along in spring, when we were supposed to be working on our marriage. Since she had already moved out, she doesn't believe that it is an affair, but she has never even filed for separation, let alone divorce, and all the time this relationship developed, she continued to tell me that she wanted to reconcile.

I will sit here and compose an email to send to all addresses that I have. I have his mom's and brother's email as well. I might as well just us this internet to do the exposing.

Help me with this. Tomorrow is his birthday. She is going down there. She will be furious if I call him, and I bet he will too. Would it be a good idea to call him while she is there? If I do, what do I say. I don't get the whole "what are your intentions?" thing. This is really going to rock my world as well as hers. I may not see my son for a while after that.

The purpose of exposure is not to piss them off, but to cause conflict in the affair. They are able to see how sleazy they look through the eyes of others when forced to explain it. Affairs thrive on secrecy for this very reason. It is sort of like bringing in a crowd of ppl into the crack house to watch the crackheads smoke crack; takes all the fun out of it!

I would call him before she gets there and tell him you are trying to save your marriage for you and your son and what are his intentions with your wife? THEN, proceed to call his mother, brother and her family, if any. [don't forewarn him or her]

If she withholds your son as punishment, you will want to get with an attorney.

When she calls you up screaming, I wouldn't answer the phone. Just let her scream and carry on to the OM. That should make his birthday very nice! lol <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

is it possible that this would backfire and drive her into his arms more deeply? Or will it just look that way for a while. She swears that is all I am doing with my attempts. Please tell me you've heard this all before.

She is already IN HIS ARMS, so I am not sure what you mean by that. It will make the affair very uncomfortable and that is your goal. Yes, we have heard it all before. She will tell you what she needs to tell you to get you to NOT interfere with her affair. She will make all manner of threats to SHUT YOU UP, so don't even pay it any mind. Would you listen to the words of a falling down drunk and take advice from them on how best to seperate them from the drink?

Thanks, I needed that. I am not afraid of upsetting her. I am concerned about the timing, as it is my son's birthday this week, and he is already having a hard time because he knows that something is wrong, and I don't want her to ruin it for him.

She is so believeable when she says that there is no chance for us to get back together, and I guess it can work on me sometimes. Any good links to successful exposure stories would be nice.

Gale, she may be believable because she believes it herself. However, she is confused and her mind will change daily just like a typical WS. I don't know what you mean by "successful exposure stories," though. Exposure, on its own, probably won't end the affair. It one arm of a comprehensive plan to ruin the affair and save the marriage. Rarely does exposure ALONE end the affair, but it will hasten the death of the affair by ruining the fantasy. It is no fun to have an affair when everyone is watching you and knows what you are really doing.

Thought I'd throw this is for ya.

I just copied it from another thread I posted to a couple days ago. Some of it seems to answer your questions. I hope you are not the same poster with a new name as then this will just be redundant, again. lol

_________________________

3 levels of marital relations:

1. Intimacy
2. Conflict
3. Withdrawal

Your wife could not be MORE withdrawn from you if she and you tried. Her interaction has one purpose only, to manipulate you to accept the status quo so that she can keep her options open. The problem is she's addicted an unable to, with certainly, "decide" or "choose" which option she wants.

That being said, "Conflict" is a step up in the relational paradigm. Getting her engage in conflict with you and angry IS a relationship. Exposure can achieve that without having to actually fight (which if and when you do DO NOT LOVE BUST). CONFLICT is better than what you've got and at the same time exposure makes the "option" of OM less stimulating, attractive, passionate, etc. She and he will constantly have to consider what YOU are doing to interfer next with their addiction to each other. She will be in crisis mode, not you. OM and her have to spend a lot of time and energy discussing and minimizing your effect on their insiduous relationship and then have less time to really be criticizing, lieing about and ridiculing you.

Another thing OM's always do and say. They exhibit within the secretive affair false bravado. The sense that THEY are somehow more manly than you. They say "If you were my princess I'd never stand for what you and I are doing...I kick my butt" <insert snicker> "your husband is a dofus and a fool...doesn't he know how special you are". Thing is, OM's are cockroaches. They cower in the light. They hide. They FEAR you. You don't need to threaten them explicity...they inherently know they could get their [censored] kicked at any moment. I do suggest a few very loosely implied threats (don't ever risk getting yourself in trouble...no real threats, OM ain't worth your freedom), these implied threats you covertly deliver via your wayward wife and never directly to the OM. You say stuff innocuously like:

*where does OM work again???
*what kind of car does he drive??? followed by "I thought that was him"
*What time does OM usually go to bed?
*what is OM's address or city??
*Does OM know how big I am (or how tough I am)???

Sidenote----<I myself reminded my wife I used to do a lot of Golden Gloves boxing in my youth...which she, predictably, brought up with OM very soon thereafter...via recordings you should have heard how much his ears picked up when she said that. He didn't act scared (he was 750 miles and false bravada keeps them from acting fearful in front of WW)...but was quite inquisitive. I'm also Greek. I completely joked that my dad was somehow connected with the Greek Mafia and my family had "connections"...which she jokingly repeated to OM. Completely untrue, but OM takes everything that threatens his personal security very seriously. He knows/thinks it may be coming. On the other hand your wife knows YOU, trusts you and knows you are just kidding, however, your WW loves to repeat that stuff and have OM repeat how tough he is and how he'd fight for her. Remember this...AFFAIR RELATIONSHIPS are juvenile. WW's act like high school women and get a rush off the thought of men fighting over them she'll repeat ANY ridiculous implied threat you give her and OM WILL be scared, just not overty>>>>.

You want OM to have the impression HE is a target. OM's get nervous and the relationship becomes slightly more complicated.

Finally, even the slightest complication has BIG effects. OM's and WW's are VERY insecure about their drug of choice quitting on them. He knows the marriage is his biggest threat. If OM senses your wife pulling back at all (even by talking about you a bit to much) he starts acting manipulative, controlling, suspicious and pyscho. This makes WW nervous and either she starts getting nervous and desparate cause she senses OM is backing off OR she begins to pull away ever so slightly from OM which further maddens the dynamic.

Again, like MWIL said, EXPOSURE is like a virus. The effects will appear small to begin with. Perhaps completely unnoticeable to you (in anger she will tell you over and over it had NO EFFECT). Just trust me, the emotional investment and anger directed at you (THE MORE THE BETTER) will make it seem like it was a HUGE mistake. However, it's not. It's the best and often ONLY weapon you have at your disposal to bust up that affair. Unless you are extremely lucky, you WILL end up doing it eventually...how else are you going to explain your divorce to everyone??? So might as well go down swinging and the sooner the better.

Mr. Wondering

p.s. - btw, men fear exposure also because they falsely feel that their wife's affair is somehow their fault or portrays to others your inability as a man to keep your woman in line. This is your issue. Her affair is not, in any way, your fault. You must accept that. Sure, the underlying marital problems you helped create. But those are a 50-50 proposition. Adultery is a 100% fault offense of the adulterer. I suggest to cast aside such false machismo fear and actually be a man/husband and fight for your wife/marriage with every available weapon at your disposal. Men are good with weapons....just do it.

Mr. Wondering,




My post, which was ignored by Gale44, was designed to push him to act like a man. NEVER discount the respect that a man standing up to a threat on his M , wife and family has on ALL involved, but especially on the WW and OM.

This threat needs to be faced one on one, with no witnesses, and needs to be short on words and long on implication.

Thanks MrWondering, I did see that post, and I did take it to heart. It has been a source of much courage, and determination in my task. As far as ignoring Cymanca, I don't understand. did I some how ignore a post on the board(is there an option somewhere?), or did I just not take your advice? I am drinking up every word you people give me, and I am praying about it whole heartedly.

I called the OM this morning. Called his house about four times with no answer, so I called his cell. he answered and I introduced myself. I read to him from a prepared statement, in the hopes of not making any unnecessary mistakes. Here is what I said.

""Stop this affair with my wife. I love her, and I want nothing more than to save my marriage. I cannot do this with you in the picture. If you have a decent bone in your body, you will cease all contact with my wife today. You are free to find any woman in the whole world, why do you have to destroy my marriage and my family? This relationship is destroying my sons family, and you have the power to stop it. I do not know what WW has told you. I do not know if you are even aware of the truth. I don't care what you know, I just want you out of her life.

I love this woman, and I am going to fight to save my marriage, and my family. I am not going to give up, and I will stop at nothing to do this."" I then hung up without giving him a chance to respond. I did not want to engage in any conversation at that time.

Not perfect, but it let him know how I felt, and it let him know that I know who he is. Could have been done better, but it was 1am when I wrote it.

I left the house, and took my son to the store. While at the store my WW called my cell, and she gave me heck about calling him. Threatening that she is going to file tomorrow. And almost in the same breath saying that if I want to have a chance I better stop now. I only told her that I love her and I am trying to save our marriage.

She is almost certain that I am going to show up there today. Oh, and if I do, I'll be in so much trouble. In a way, I wish I could show up, but not today. I am going to send an email to all of the contacts that i can find. Ask his friends and family to ask him to stop the affair. She is threatening and threatening that I will not get what I want by doing these things. She says I will not get her back by contacting him. But, if I don't, I have already lost her. I have learned that everything that she tells me not to do, is actually what she seems to want me to do. Go figure.

So the second S**tstorm has come. I doubt that it is over, so I might as well make it a doozy, and show my cards. Afterwards, I will certainly lose one source of information, but it has served it's purpose, and I will have to live without it. I am scared as ******, but I am doing it anyway. Today I am a man.

You my friend have discovered the secret of strength and courage

The courage is in the doing.

Fight on.

Mr. W

Well, I must admit that I don't feel so good today. Everything that I did yesterday seems to have worked against me. I know that it probably will look that way, and I must be patient. I am just a little low today. She told me that she wants a divorce. I am convinced that this whole affair is really about her wanting to escape from me, not so much run to him. He seems to represent a safe place to her for some reason, and I am powerless to do much about it other than what I did yesterday. I am trying so hard to trust in god to give me the strength I need to keep hanging in there. I just sense that I am going to need to pull back soon. I will not try to stop her from filing. I will just try to negotiate for our son's sake.

What do you think. Should I try to keep her from letting this man around our son? Or should I just let her do what she wants to do? I have been trying to keep this man out of my son's life, but my mom thinks that maybe our son should see what his mom is up to. I don't want to put him through that, but I am so unsure. I really could use some help on this.

Will it hurt planB if I try to make her stay in our school system so that our son can go to school here? That might preserve the fantasy that OM's place offers by making her still have to travel to see him. I don't know?

I will look into planB better, cause it will probably be here sooner than I want.

Thanks

Stand tall and don't support her A financially or otherwise. Absolutely, tell her that it is unacceptable for your son to be around OM and if she does then you will do what you need to do (don't elaborate or anything).

Tell her you exposed the A in hopes of killing it for it is the only chance you and she have to restore your M and save you Son from the pain of divorce.

Collect information, document all of her activities, your time with your son, everything in case it ends poorly and you want primary physical custody of your son.

Hang in there and you have taken one of the best steps towards breaking up fantasyland, now who else can this A be exposed to? (OM's wife, family, friends, work, her work, her friends, family, etc). Do it, don't warn or tell her just do it. Keep repeating your mantra of "protecting our family and saving our M and protecting our son, etc" when she gets angry and threatens.

BRAVO!! Keep up the pressure and get this all done now. Don't give them a chance to relax or REGROUP, get this all done in ONE FELL SWOOP to acheive the maximum impact. I would start with his mother, his brother and then his email contacts TODAY.

GOOD JOB!

Well, that didn't go so well. My WW calls me on my way to work today and chewed me a new one. It is over. It is so over now. She is furious about the emails, and of course, they explained everything to these people. Seems that I have been abusive to my wife AND son, and I guess I threatened to Kill the OM! I do not see how this is ever going to turn in my favor, and I am so beside myself right now. I am going to have to let go, and go to PlanB, but at this moment I am so lost, and feeling kinda hopeless. I just can't imagine what this wicked SOB is filling her head with.

I have asked her not to let him near my son, and of course on my way home guess who's over to her house. I stopped, and she said "I told you not to contact him."

She is just so in control right now, and I am so lost.

thats part of the script you still did the right thing so dont think otherwise
when i exposed to my wifes family and the other guys shes mad too but thats part of the process dont worry so much tonight in a week itll be alot calmer
i had to be done good job

by the way your in more control than you know ,,,,,,,you just have to figure it out on your own
its there you just have to find it keep posting

Well, I still don't think it was worth it. She is filling for divorce next week, and Swears that I have sealed the deal with the OM because I aired her private life to people. I don't know where this is going, but I am really doubting the whole exposure thing right now. One sent back and called me a loser. One just told me that he is a dirt bag and I should move on. I will wait and see, but I have felt like crap all day.

She called me on my way home, and we talked for two hours. I really hurt her bad. With this exposure, and with our life before. I don't think she is lying either. I just am so torn. I haven't been the best husband. I don't deserve to keep her, but I just want him out of the picture so we could have a chance.

You realize a successful exposure is designed to pizz off the WS and threatening a D is what a WS is suppose t/d.

When she does, just let her spew. As for your son. Go check into legal custody and do a background check on the OM. If you can legally keep him away (questionable character, RO filing if possible), then do so. Do it with legal guidance (lawyer, police, etc.)

Remember she will spew. Then she may cry and beg you to stop. Either way it is to control you. You don't want t/b controlled by a WS. So do what you need for you not to satisfy the WS. The WS wants you to suffer. Don't suffer or show u r suffering.

Expect the WS t/b pizzed all the time.

Pray for a clear mind, calm heart and lots of patience.

take care,
L.

WOW! You exposed and she didn't come over and give you a MEDAL!!? I am shocked!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

C'mon. Did you expect a MEDAL for interfering with her affair? Why do you think she is so angry? If you weren't interfering with her affair, there would be no response.

Please understand what is happening here. You ARE interfering with her affair and SHE WANTS YOU TO STOP! That is why she is making THREATS! So, pay it no mind and keep doing what you are doing.

If she is dragging your son into her sleazy, filthy affair, then get a seperation agreement that disallows this. Many folks here have that.

Did you expose to the OM's mother and brother as we had discussed?


Please stop with this crazy thinking. Exposure hurt her AFFAIR and the OM. When you take the crack pipe away from the crack addict are you "hurting him?" Do you expect them to give you a KISS?

Think this THROUGH, Gale, and stop reacting emotionally to her selfish TIRADES designed to shut you up and put you back into submission.

You are never going to win this battle if you are so easily manipulated by a little anger. Your marriage CAN SURVIVE a little anger, it CANNOT SURVIVE a long term affair.

Gale, winning your marriage back from an affair is not an easy thing. And you have no hope of winning if you are going to so easily throw in the towel when things get tough! This is ALL GOING TO BE TOUGH!! That doesn't mean you PRE-EMPTIVELY SURRENDER when the enemy [the affair] yells at you! But that is exactly what you are doing. You ain't going to win anything if you play surrender monkey at the first shot, my friend.

OK, at least I got a reaction! thanks really, I needed that! My last post sounded pathetic, I know, I think I was just crying for help.

Honestly, the other day, I really thought I was ready for it, but when it hit, I was blindsided. She knows me so well, and she can work me really good sometimes. I was already having second thoughts about if I did the right thing, because I've never done this before. Her anger wasn't hard to take, but the tears are hard for me. I am a born peace maker, and I hate that about myself. I do not handle conflict well. So, like I said, I am doubting my actions, and she is crying, and I just start feeling like a heel. I know I know, toughen up, and fight the good fight. But I have been flapping my jaw at her way too much, and I realized that I have been bombarding her with disrespectful judgements. So again I start doubting myself, and She just seemed to get the upper hand for a while.

It is hard to argue with someone when you cannot tell them that they are wrong. I mean, I can tell her she is wrong, but then I might as well shut up because the mike gets turned off. When she is angry, she is so believable. I kept telling her that I am sorry that she feels hurt, but I am not sorry for what I did.

She has changed her angle, and is now trying to convince me that my verbal abuse, drove her love for me away years ago. Trying to make me feel guilty for scarring her. She swears that she is frightened of me, and I am the boogy man to her. I can see where I might fit that image, because I fell into rage and pain after her affairs nine years ago, and we both made a mess of things. I said some things that I can't take back, and she is using them for an excuse for what she is doing. But all of that can be addressed in counseling, and of course her goal is to get rid of me.

I don't know if she was trying to play it up this morning when she brought our son over, but she acted really scared of me, and somehow managed to get her feeling hurt in a matter of minutes. Like a moron, I follow her out to her car trying to appease her (how do I stop this?) but I told her we should call a truce for our son's sake. Tomorrow is his birthday, and we are all supposed to go out to eat. I know that with her attitude, it will be an execise in futility.

She liked the idea of the truce, because it means peace from me "badgering" her. Unfortunately, I can't let a good thing lay. I texted her best friend, and asked her if my wife had told her that the OM had beat his wife and stepdaughter(I did not make that up). This evening WW texts "Nice Truce" Right now I wonder why I couldn't wait until friday to do that. I want a good day for my son, and now I will feel like I ruined it even when it is her with the attitude.(gotta stop this BS don't I)

So, while I am ready and willing to fight the fight, I obviously have a few holes in my armor. I could use some advice on where to go from here. I have been thinking of just pulling back. Kindoff a pre planb sorta thing. I don't know really. I am getting tired, and my health is paying the price. I looked in the mirror today, and I could swear that I had my stomach stapled. I am gaunt. I can't fight when I'm weak, and my brain is getting fuzzy. I will try to eat something in the morning.

How do I work with her, without looking desparate? How do I work with her period?

Oh, and I didn't call mom and brother, but I emailed them along with the others. Sorta not sure if i should follow up now with mom or not. He's had days to spew his lies, and I am sure a call might be considered harassment.

my WW has pretty much dropped the curtain on her own affair. She has had him come over every night this week and says she doesn't care if the whole town knows. That is sorta hard to work with. But, if she's flaunting it, then I can too. I can tell anyone I want that I think might help. Can't do a very good planb while we still own that d**n store. Can't find a buyer either.

I know, I'm rambling. Gotta go to bed.

Gale, you are not going to get too far if you keep allowing her crazy rantings to divert you from you path to save your marriage. You have to stay on course and stop allowing a few fireworks to send you fleeing to your foxhole. You will lose the battle quickly if you run screaming at a few sparklers!

I would CALL the mother and the brother and ask for their help in saving your marriage. That cause might be lost because you hesitated, but it is worth a try. Also, tell his mother that you will be going for a restraining order to keep your child out of their sleazy affair and because her son is a wife beater. Do you have evidence that he beat up his W and step daughter? Can you call the police station and get this information?

Tell your W that your son is not to be exposed to her sleazy boyfriend and get your attorney to specify this in LS papers. Have him NAME the OM in the papers. This will put great pressure on her affair and give her an awakening if she cannot bring your boy around her OM. She should not be allowed to use your boy to normalize her sleazy affair and give it a false air respectibility.

In the meantime, i see you getting completely sidetracked from your mission by some FIREWORKS. She goes blah, blah, blah, and you say "HOW HIGH, HONEY" and you have all but forgotten your mission. You are going to lose this war very quickly if you get so easily sidetracked by a few fireworks. That will not work anymore, Gale. You can see that appeasement and buttkissing a crazy woman who is in the throes of her affair has landed you exactly NOWHERE. And it sure will get you nowhere to abandon your whole plan just because she doesn't like it. She isn't supposed to like it!

So, stop the buttkissing, stop "backing off" in your PLAN to bust up her affair. Stop asking for "truce" when you are under fire. The only "truce" that will suffice is the END OF THE AFFAIR. Her being nice to you is NOT THE GOAL HERE, remember? The goal here is to END HER AFFAIR AND SAVE YOUR MARRIAGE, not get some crumbs from her.

And....stop being annoying.


When she tries to manipulate you about "her hurt" [sniff...snifff....... ] be sure and remind her that you are very "HURT" by her affair. You are sure sorry the consequences of her affair are so hurtful. Her affair has "hurt" many people. KEEP TELLING HER THIS!

Is this "counselor" facilitating the divorce for her? Because that is usually the case.

I think the counselor wants to save our marriage, but is concentrating on WW's personal self image. Don't know really, because WW says she doesn't do everything the IC tells her to.

Melodylane, I really could use some advice on where to go. Do I just keep talking to her? Talking only seems to strengthen her resolve. She says she was beginning to let her guard down, and then I pulled this "stunt" She can really work this to her advantage, and I cannot argue that we were happy. I can only argue that we can be, if she will give it a chance, but with him in the picture, she won't consider. I am really thinking that all I have left is planB. But I'm not sure.

I am not giving up. Believe me. I am just confused about the next step. She wants me to back off. So perhaps I should stop talking to her, at least as much as I have been, and just be nice to her. Of course when someone asks her about the affair, then I get another volley. He of course is standing by her, and supporting her, and making himself look so good to her, and I know that this will happen, but where is the hook? Is it just letting him have her, and back off, and let him meet ALL of her needs?

Gale, yes you should keep talking to her, but you can stop debating with her. Stop pleading and begging, but do not fail to let her know that her affair is very hurtful to you.

In the meantime, expose to the OM' mother and brother and contact your attorney about protecting your child from this man. Keeping your son away from this sleazy affair with a thug is tantamount.

Do those things first, Gale. She will respect you much more for taking a stand against her affair and for your son.

Secondly, going to counselng while there is an ongoing affair is a complete waste of time that is probably causing more harm than good. This C is helping her pursue her own selfish interests at the expense of the marriage. The POINT of MC is to RECOVER the marriage, but there is no recovery as long as she is in an affair.

Also, is she using family money to finance her affair digs? Have you protected yourself financially?

And yes, you should be thinking about Plan B, but you can't do that if you see each other every day at work. What do you suggest?

AND MOST OF ALL, STOP ALLOWING HER TO SCARE YOU OFF WITH HER ANGER!! You must ignore it!

Well, I don't know why I keep writting posts, just to have the silly page tell me it is expired, and I lose everything I wrote. I posted this morning, and lost it. So we'll try again.

So, we actually all went out as a family today to celebrate our son's birthday. After my little "stunt" yesterday, I really figured it would be a nightmare. I must give her credit. She did better than I expected. She does not want to be around me at all, and that was still obvious. But she didn't have that scowl on her face like the last few times we've been together.

Oh, she made sure to get a few jabs in here and there. She had to make sure I understand that last week I was so nice, and she was actually letting her guard down a little bit, and then I pulled the exposure thing, and I just p**sed it all away. She really thought that we might be able to be "friends". That word struck such a cord with me. Pure fantasy. That is where she is. She has no clue that there is no chance in h**l for us to be friends if this marriage ends this way. I do not say that out of spite, or vindictivness. It is just that I will have to withdraw, and I will not want to see or speak with her.

It also showed me that I could be nice until the cows come home, and she would never decide to come running back into my arms. In her mind we are so so over. And it was that way in her mind, before I pulled my little "stunt"

I didn't expose to people around our town, for one reason, she has no close friends except the one I told yesterday. And I didn't want to hurt our business any more than it is already suffering. She was sure trying to find out who I've told though. I am thinking of telling some people, but I don't know if it will work or not. I don't just want to expose to embarass her. I want to reach someone that will possibly make an impact if they talk to her.

I really don't think I can call the OM's mother now. I emailed her along with his brother and all the others on sunday. I know that he has told these people that I threatened to kill him, and If I call her now, I may get some kind of trouble that I don't want.

I am also still struggling with talking to her mother. The woman is sick, and is not always there mentally. I don't know if she knows about the OM or not.

Before last sunday, my WW had honored my wishes not to expose our son to OM(to an extent). But the SOB was at her house every night this week. She used the fact that I called him as her justification to not honor my wishes anymore. She told me today, that he wanted them(WW and son) to come spend the weekend with him. NO NO NO! I said "I called him once, and spoke to him for 30 seconds. You are not taking our son down there." She then tells me that I better get my mom to watch him then. So, good, I prevented this one, but she will try and try again. It is so hard to see this beast that occupies the same space that my loving wife used to.

Can't see the lawyer till thursday, hope nothing major happens until then. I have decided to pull back, and not push too much. Give myself some space, and try to enjoy the weekend with my son. I'm gonna make ribs for my folks on sunday I guess, and try not to think about what she is doing. This will be her first weekend down there since my exposure, so it could be interesting to see her attitude when she gets back. I don't think I will count on anything though.

As for preparing for planB, I gotta sell the store. We'll probably be bankrupt by fall anyway if I don't. She is taking money out to pay for gas and bills and stuff, but she hasn't been working a whole lot. I am working a second shift job, and then going to the store to do the books afterwards. She is getting the money, and I am doing the work. I can't do much about it but get rid of it. Just pretty hard to find a buyer. The value of the business has already lost about 30% in the last year. I really believe that getting that store out of our lives will help to open her eyes to the real world and to what I really have been doing for her these last nine years. She ain't going to be liking putting gas in that big SUV on a walmart salary.

Is she MENTALLY RETARDED and not able to comprehend your words? Is she in an old folks home and not coherent anymore? If she is not, I would suggest you call her. This is a KEY EXPOSURE that is critical to ruining this affair. Why did you not expose to her mother on the FIRST DAY? That should have been the first exposure. YOUR family members should also be told.

And HIS MOTHER should be CALLED, ESPECIALLY since he has lied to her about you. You should at least try to set the record straight and ask for her help in breaking up this family.

In the meantime, close down your bank account so she is no longer plundering it. Let her get a job and get her own money. You should not be financing her affair.

Gale, you are spinning your wheels. This stuff cannot be avoided. She will be angry and it will be hard, but if you don't get to work you are going to lose your marriage to an affair.

Her mother has cancer in the brain. She is in the nursing home, and sorta comes and goes. I don't think she is as bad as my WW says she is though. I know that I should tell her, if she doesn't already know. I just didn't want to get my FIL involved because that would be counterproductive. I will call her today.

As far as his mom, what will i say. If she just hangs up, do I keep calling back? Do I leave a message on her machine? She recieved the email, like the others, what else do I tell her? How do I convince her that they are lying? I will try to call her, and I hope she will talk to me.

Thanks, keep pushing me. It "seems" that every time I expose to someone, it hurts my case. It "seems" that everything that I do, seems to work against me. I need your input. I appreciate your help. I know you don't have to.

Well, lets discuss this. Is her mother terminally ill in a nursing home? Is she dying? Why would it be counterproductive to tell your FIL?

Call his mom, disguising your # and speak to her directly. I wouldn't suggest leaving a message.


That is because you believe it is a NEGATIVE thing when your W gets mad. BUT IT IS NOT. The goal here is not to appease her to keep her CALM, but to SAVE YOUR MARRIAGE by busting up her affair. When you take the crack pipe away from the crack addict, do you expect to get roses and kisses? It is the same principle.

If you are effectively wreaking havoc on her affair, she will be FURIOUS. But you need to get ALL OF YOUR EXPOSURES done NOW so we can move onto the next step. Dragging this out only minimizes the effectiveness.

What other exposure targets have you not mentioned? Does your WW have any influential siblings? What does the OM do for a living? If there is anyone who might have an impact, please consider them too and do it TODAY.

Everytime you expose, it hurts the AFFAIR, it doesn't "hurt your case." You are going to have to get a little bloody here if you are going to win the war against the affair.

Wife has no other family but her mother. My FIL is her stepfather(her father died years ago), and the two of them do not get along. I do not believe that he would use the information with her best interest in mind.

The OM does not work! She doesn't even know where he gets his money! He told her he is on unemployment, but that's been four months now, and I don't know how long they pay before they shut you off, but I thought it was six months.

There might be a few customers at the store, but I am afraid of gossip mongers. I don't know if any of them would help or not. I told one customer, and I know she respects this man, and now she won't let him get close to her.

My mom wants to talk to her, so far I have told her not to, but I think it won't hurt now. Of course WW doesn't want to talk to my mom, so maybe I have done the wrong thing by asking her to hold back.

I feel so stupid right now, because I thought I was doing everything right, and here I only did it half arsed.

Well, exposure is over. I am not doing this to myself anymore. I have told people, and noone seems to give a s**t. Move on Move on Move on, is about all I hear. I called my FIL to ask for MIL's phone number at the nursing home. He and I talked, and they know there is another man. I am not going to try to get them to side with me(not trying to get anyone on any side but OUR side), because MIL is in fragile shape, and FIL is no ally. So they know, and don't seem to care. I guess that doesn't say much for me huh.

Cannot reach his mother, but I sent some copies of emails that went back and forth with OM's cousin. I am just sick and tired of being called a bas*ard twelve times a day whenever my WW discovers someone else has been told. I may still talk to some people here in town, what does it matter now? She is going to the lawyer tomorrow to file for divorce, because she says I pushed her into it. Bull**it! Maybe I helped rush it a bit, but I didn't make her do a da*n thing.

Since I showed signs of weakness last week, she has been trying to play it up big time. She says I am the Boogyman to her, and she is afraid of me. I better start planb soon, while there is still some love to save here. I do love her, but am thinking more and more that I'm wasting my time. I am not giving up mind you, but I don't really know where to go now.

Got an offer on the store this morning. I all but hung up on him because it was an insult. The vultures know that our marriage is in big trouble, so they want to profit from our misfortune. I tried to talk to her about the offer, and told her that if we go to negotiate a sale that she needs to be there. She doesn't want to have anything to do with it, says she don't know nothing about that stuff. BUT, if I agree to sell our store for a certain price, she will certainly come back and say that I undersold it to try to punish her for what she is doing.

Everything and I mean everything that ever went wrong with this entire world is all my fault these days, and oh my god how could I ever do that to her with the exposure "stunt" It was like I threw her out on stage butt naked. There is no way that she will ever feel safe with me now. What else am I hearing alot of these days. And telling her that what she is doing to me hurts too, only gets the old "throwing it back in my face" speech. This beast is wicked, and cunning, and I am uncertain how to tread. I am trying to just shut up and leave her alone for the most part. If we talk, our problems invariably come up. I do not believe that it is always me that is bringing them up. But the result is the same. She is hateful, and I just have to end the encounter.

She said that here she thought that she was starting to feel safe with me, and maybe we would be able to have some sort of relationship when this is all over.(meaning the divorce) I told her that if we divorce, we will not have a relationship. This, of course, really made her angry. Why? I don't know. But why does she want to have a relationship with me, if she doesn't want to be married to me? Why does she want to be friends with me if I am the Boogyman?

What do I say? Or do I just shut up, sell the store and move into planB while I wait for the divorce to be final?

blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah...


Translation: she was starting to feel she could get away with having this affair right under your nose with no complaint. If you are nicer to her and don't interfere with her affair, she might send you a Christmas card when all this is over! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

All fogtalk spoken by a FOGHORN. I don't think you are going to get an AWARD for exposing her, Gale. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> So, I would stop expecting one and STOP allowing her FOGHORN bleatings to so upset you. You are in a war for your marriage and you are getting sidetracked by FIREWORKS.

So, the focus should be on CALMING DOWN and not reacting to her FOGHORN craziness. She is not supposed to be nice to you right now because she is in an affair and is trying to destroy your marriage. Be pleasant and polite, but be FIRM about the harm she is causing you and stick to your guns. Don't allow her threats to sidetrack you, ok?

Don't bother attempting to sell the business and don't listen to her divorce talk. Tell her that you "don't do divorce, you only do marriage." And then SMILE. Don't agree to anything and don't make it easyon her. Just make sure she doesn't plunder your money to finance her affair. Protect your assets!




This is what I warned you about before. This attempt to be your "friend" is designed to get you to shut up and play nice while she destroys you. If you don't go along or if you object to her cruel treatment, then it makes her uncomfortable. But if you will just be "quiet" and be her "friend" then she won't have to face the consequences of her actions. So, just tell her that you are not here to be her "friends," you are her HUSBAND. Besides, would you be "friends" with someone lies and cheats on you??

Gale,

Tell her get a lawyer, do what she thinks is right. Get yourself a lawyer to protect yourself and to learn the rules of D in your state. Then when she tells you about D and all the other fog talk tell her "I don't do D, I do MB!" "If you want to talk D talk to my lawyer" and hand her his card. Do not get sucked into the Fog talk, do not feel bad about exposure or anything else. One day she will wake up and thank you for fighting the good fight and winning!

Gale,

Please do not pursue exposure with her mother any longer since she's in a nursing home with cancer. Please do not believe anything your WW spouse says right now....in many ways....she's as sick as her mother. Unless you want a divorce....don't help that process by selling your business or filing anything. However, getting good legal advice and securing your finances can be done without filing for divorce. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> Sorry you're hurting.

Gale, I missed this part. Please don't stop your mother from talking to her. Don't protect her from the consequences of the affair. She needs to hear your mother's displeasure and she needs to KNOW that she has been exposed to her.

Now she tells me that everyone that has talked to her has told her to divorce me. She paints a bad picture of me, but I have been a very bad husband. I cannot deny that I have been a raging alchoholic, and my anger has destroyed her love for me. All I can do is say that I have changed, and I am not going to let the alchohol rule my life anymore. All I can say is that the anger is gone, and it has been replaced by understanding, and forgiveness.

She is convinced, and convincing others that I am crazy, and my exposure just seems to reenforce that view. She said that the IC told her that I need to see a doctor. I don't want to believe the words that come out of her mouth. I try to take them with a grain of salt, but I don't doubt that they are saying these things.

She knows that I am coming here for advice, and she says that you are all a bunch of holier than thou types, and you are misleading me. Please help me deal with this. I don't want to doubt myself, but I must admit that I am struggling with all of this. I cannot seem to come back with anything to defend myself, and my actions, I keep telling her that I love her, and I am trying to save our family to which she says "what family?" I tell her that i know we are disfunctional, but we can fix it.

I figure that we will talk to these people about selling the store, but she must be there. I do want that store out of my life, but I don't want to give her more reason to leave. Sounds like she intends to file regardless. She is very stubborn.

Gale,

If you can't deny that you are an alchoholic and have trouble controlling your anger....what are you doing to address those things? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Please stop defending yourself and trying to debate with her. You are trying to reason with a DRUNK. Do you understand? She is an addict under the influence so STOP IT! Would you take seriously the words of a falling down drunk? Just tell her, "I am sorry you are upset, dear." Smile sweetly.

And stop listening to her threats and rants. Lots of ppl "intend" to get divorced. We hear that everyday on this forum. Rarely do they ever follow through, but even if she does, it most certainly doesn't mean all is lost. IT IS NOT!


You are an alcoholic? Are you practicing? Are you in a program of recovery?

I admit that I am an alchoholic. I have known for quite a few years, but I haven't been willing to do much about it. I tried a few times to quit, but not with much sincerity. I tried last winter, and it made her mad at me. I was weak, and I started up again.

When she hit me with this bombshell, I don't know what happened, but I stopped drinking, and I haven't had any desire to take a drink since. I know that she has to think that if she came back to me, I would start up again, but I believe sincerely that even if I don't get her back, I don't ever want to start up again. I think that when I called out to god to help me with this affair, and I asked him to forgive me for being stubborn and proud, he touched me, and his love and forgiveness have helped keep the desire to drink away. This is not to mean that I believe that I am cured of anything, but I really don't want it.

For years, I have been using beer as a crutch. I have rationalized that it was the only friend I had left. My wife didn't want me anymore, so I might as well drown my sorrows. Little did I realize that it was causing her to reject me. This is my ultimate love buster, and I may not deserve to get her back because of it. At the same time, I don't want her to rush into the arms of the OM to get away from me. I know that I am willing to do anything I have to to never drink again. I don't know if AA will help, but I am willing to try. My experience with AA is a bunch of people that seem to be bitter about the fact that they cannot drink anymore. I know that is not correct, but that was my impression.

Perhaps this changes things. Perhaps you may just think I should let her go now. I don't want to give up on her. I still believe that there is a chance. I just cannot reach her by talking, and about the only other thing I can do is let her go. I have been a good husband other than this, but this is pretty big. I feel shame and remorse, but that don't get her back. I feel that if she wanted to, she could find forgiveness for me, and we could work together, but she really really doesn't want to. She says it has been eight months, and she did want to but not now. She swears it is not because OM, but I don't believe her. It IS because of OM, and if he weren't there, she might try.

I must continue to hope, and keep loving her. I hurt her real bad when I got upset. I only got upset when I was drinking. I was hurting, and I didn't know what to do. So I lashed out at her for rejecting me. What a mess I have made.

No....I do NOT think you should let her go...or that you deserve to be cheated on!! If she was unhappy with the alcholism....she had many many ethical choices besides cheating.

But I do think that you've got to concentrate on all the parts of Plan A....and stopping love busters is one of them. Your marriage needs to be an attractive alternative to the affair.....and returning to someone with drinking and anger problems....is not going to be really attractive until you can consistently show you've change. Right now, your changes aren't believable....you understand that. With a big issue like this one....you've got to demonstrate your commitment consistently. YES....go to AA...not just for her but for YOU. Yes....seek help for your anger issues. Right now....all she's seeing is exposure....and while that's a powerful tool....void of stopping love busters....it can look like vindictiveness because she's not seeing the effort to improve yourself with as much fervor.

Gale, I think I better understand your situation now and can see why she left you. This was probably an exit affair because she just became fed up with being #2 in your life. [alcohol is #1] You may have lost your wife over your drinking, Gale, I don't see how you are going to get her back until you try and recover.

I hope that you understand the gravity of what has happened here and will stem the loss by getting help for your drinking problem. Because if this doesnt wake your [censored] up, it CAN and WILL get worse. You can lose MUCH more, and will continue to lose until you get into recovery. Some alcholics have such a LOW bottom that it takes sitting in jail or living under a bridge to wake them up. I hope you aren't one of those. It will get progressively worse until you do something about it.

Just stopping drinking is not doing something about it. If that is really true, then I assure you it is just a matter of time until you start back again. We can sober up with a gun to our head if we really have to. But it never lasts, because it is not a matter of will power, but a matter of RECOVERY, something you are not doing.

Do something about your drinking, Gale, so you have a hope to save your marriage. Just stopping drinking is not addressing the living problem that led to your drinking and your abusive behavior. And your W is RIGHT to stay away from you until you do something about it.


Then you should fit right in. Please note, though, that those people are sober and in recovery, YOU ARE NOT. They can show you how to live a decent life without booze, before you lose everything else.

....Well, I don't know why I keep writting posts, just to have the silly page tell me it is expired, and I lose everything I wrote. I posted this morning, and lost it. So we'll try again....

I've had that happen too. I learned, if I have a LONG post, I do it on Word, then cut/paste it into the reply.

I rarely edit....except for spelling and grammar....but the last thing this board needs today is a "rant". So....I'm going to take a bath instead. Sorry.

Gale, I have not yet searched your backposts, so I do not know the reason why you were separated before she started her affair.

Although it is not the best thing to start up with anothre person while separated (esp. if she was dickering with the possibility of saving the marriage...and you did indicate that was the case). However, I don't view her entering a relationship MONTHS after the separation in the same light as I do while viewing a relationship that began while husband/wife are still living together.

You've admitted having been a "raging alcoholic". You mentioned she is afraid of you. I cannot help but wonder how bad things were prior to the separation. I'm guessing that the OM does not have a wife, so he is a free agent. And, your wife, while separated, considered herself to be one as well.

I do not know what to suggest, honestly. If you do go into Plan B, you really should work on yourself. She may need help too, but that is not your concern right now. Make yourself a healthy man...and a good dad for your child. Hope and pray that she takes care of herself as well. Things sound so dysfunctional, and her relationship with the OM, while painful to you, might really not be the main problem.

I'm in the minority in this thread. I do hope you do not take offence.

And, I am just ONE opinion, I am not always right.

You are so right. I do want to come to terms with my drinking problem. I believe that this affair is my bottom. I believe that, because I have never wanted to quit before. Not really want to like I do now. And I honestly do believe that I intend to stay sober regardless of the outcome of our marriage.

You see, I knew God told me to come to this place for a reason.

Gale, there are opportunities everywhere, you just have to look. By finding this place, you found a soft place to land, some input on the issues you are facing, and a little tough love to finish it off.

Taking care of your drinking problem is a big task, and you have to commit to it for a long long time (for life). However, if you tackle it with gusto now, over the years it will become easier as you replace old unhealthy habits with new healthy ones.

Make Gale be the best man he can be. And, IF it turns out that your improvements cause you wife's head to turn around and reconsider, fine. If not, you've still done something amazing and positive. It is good for you. It is good for your child. And, maybe down the road it will be good for some other lady.

Don't try to do this alone. Start at AA immediately. That way, when you weaken (and you will) you will have somebody to call. Lots of tough love there.

There is much good ahead for you...just don't ever stop looking for it.

lol...it happens to me almost all the time because I'm something of a slow typist, and sometimes (grin) a bit wordy.

If that happens and you get "Form no longer valid" message, here is what I do.

Use the "back" arrow to return to the previous page where you typed your post into the reply box.

"Select all" the post and copy it to your clipboard.

Then "Back arrow" back out to the original message you were responding to, click Reply again.

When the new Reply box opens, Paste the Clipboard contents into the box and either hit "post" or "review post" to enter the post.

Something changed in the system program that has restricted the timelimit it holds a reply box open. Tempest is aware of the problem, but there has been no "fix" yet. I was hoping that this "new look" for the forums (which I don't like yet) would include fixing the "timeout" problem, but it hasn't.

FH....all I do is use the back arrow button, then refresh the page....then it will post. Saves a little work.

Gale, I am glad you feel that this is your bottom and you have had enough. Like I said earlier, quitting is not enough, though. Because - and this is REAL IMPORTANT - if the living problem is not addressed that led to your drinking, you will soon be drinking again. You can stop drinking, but that does not leave you a recovering man, rather a sober drunk who does and says the same things he did before.

Without a plan of recovery, you have NO DEFENSE against the next - and there will be lots of "nexts" - urge to drink. You will be off and running again, because your "will power" is what got you here in the first place; it won't be your salvation. I promise you that. The only thing that will keep you sober is a solid plan of recovery.

How much do you know about AA in your area?

I have been trying to find out about AA meetings in my area. Also talked to my mom's pastor, and they have a group at the church, but they meet in the evening, and I work second shift right now. I may try to switch to third shift soon, which would facilitate getting to meetings. I am going to talk to an associate pastor tomorrow, and he says he will help me find someone to talk to.

This week has been a doozy, and it ain't over yet. I am going to see my lawyer in the morning. I have been waiting for two weeks for this, and I don't know what to do. I have jotted down a bunch of things to ask him, but don't yet know what I will find out. Seems kinda wierd going to a divorce lawyer and telling him I don't want a divorce.

My WW met her lawyer Tuesday, and told me that OM can sue me for libel for the email exposure thing. She also said that she is allowed to take money from the store to use to file for divorce, so I guess she is planning on making me pay for it. She hasn't actually filed though I think. At least she hasn't taken any money from the store yet, and I hope the attorney won't start until she's paid.

School starts in two weeks, and when my WW came home from attorney's office, she had a call from her landlord telling her she needs to move out by the end of the month. (Come to think of it, I ought to confirm that with the landlord) And of course the ONLY option that she can come up with is to move into OM's mothers rental house that is 75 miles away! I am beside myself about this. I asked her if she talked to her lawyer about it and if she can even do that legally. She didn't know. She just said "well I'm not moving today" My son's life is in such turmoil right now, throwing him into a new school, in a strange town right now may just send him into an emotional tailspin. She just seems to think that he will be fine. I cannot believe this.

Ever since my exposure, she is convincing everybody that I am acting crazy, and unpredictable. the councelor won't even return my calls.

WW called me last night to call a truce?! All the terrible things that I am doing to hurt her are going to kill her if I don't stop?! I'm like, what am I doing to hurt you? She feels like the only goal of my exposure was to shame and embarass her. I told her that I did not expose to anyone other that those that I thought would talk to them, and try to convince them that they should reconsider their actions. I told her that if my goal was to shame her, I could have taken out an add in the paper. She is just really trying to work me good, and I am getting sorta sick of it. I need to just let her go, and get away from her. I have to deal with my own crap, (i.e. alchohol) and let her do whatever. It doesn't help that her mother is dying as I write this. She went down there today to be with her, and I haven't heard from her since. I am sure that she is at OM's place right now, and I am certain that he is doing everything right to be there for her. He has been such a help since I started attacking her with my exposure stunt, and I am such a bas**rd. I really dread her mother dying right now. I don't know what it will do to her.

I just want to be there for her, and she doesn't want me to. This really hurts.

Supposed to go deal with some people about selling the store on friday, we are going to get robbed on that deal, but I will let it go for a song to get it out of my life. But, she has to be there, because if I make the deal without her, I will be trying to hurt her financially by not getting a better price.

rock me hard place

did you know that if you stop drinking beer, you can eat a half gallon of ice cream a day and still lose weight?!
I guess life is pretty good after all.

ok, please calm down, Gale. First off, get with your attorney ASAP to protect yourself financially. Don't allow her to take ONE penny from the store. REMOVE YOUR MONEY so she can't plunder it until your attorney tells you what to do.

Secondly, try and have your attorney to prevent her from moving away with your little boy into the OM's home.


Oh brother. The TRUTH is a defense for libel. This is more blah, blah, blah, blah.... Pay it no mind.


Thats ok, its pretty common. People are not stupid and can see what is going on. She is having an affair so is trying to turn you into the bad guy.

Open your phone book and look up AA and call them. Tell them you want to speak to a MAN who has some long term sobriety and leave your #. Talk to him when he calls and ask him to be your temporary sponsor and introduce you to some good meetings.

And, in the meantime, get yourself legally protected and CALM DOWN. Don't listen to your wife. Just remember it is like talking to a falling down drunk. She is just as addicted as you except she is presently under the influence. I am serious. As you can see, she will say the most fogged out, crazy things to get you to STOP interfering in her affair. DO NOT let her sidetrack you, Gale.


hehe... The key word here is YET! It will catch up after awhile, MissPiggy! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

She probably plans on moving in with the OM, Gale. This is even more reason why you must get an attorney and get your son protected. Your son should not be dragged into her sleazy affair. Be sure and tell your attorney that she is having an affair and have him SPECIFY in the seperation papers that your boy is not to be around her creepy boyfriend.

I saw the lawyer this morning, and at his suggestion, I will file for divorce asap. If I want to have a chance to protect my son, I must file and ask for custody. This is going to get messy, so bear with me. The emotional edge has softened quite a bit, and reaching out for help, is having a calming effect on me. I am feeling more confident, and I pray for a good outcome.

I don't want to take my son away from his mother, but I have to file for custody to keep him away from OM. I just hope she doesn't file before monday.

Good job, Gale! And please hide your money while you can. Don't let her plunder your money, ok? When you tell her about the divorce, simply explain that you dont want a D but will do what it takes to protect your son from her affair and keep him close to you.

You do sound much calmer today which is a very timely change. Glad to hear you are a praying man, you need God very much right now. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Today has been a much better day for me. I feel more confident, and at ease. I am very nervous about what I am about to do, but I feel good that I am doing something. I do not look forward to going face to face with the beast again, but I guess if I want to fight this fight, I must do what I have to. I trust that I won't lose faith so easily this time, and I will be better prepared for the monster.

I am sure that she will take this the wrong way, and I will not be able to make her see what I am trying to do, but I will have to let her get upset, and deal with it. She has to see that her fantasy cannot become reality. I have told her that I would never dream in a million years of taking her son away from her, and now I will file for custody. I hope that doesn't make me a liar, because I don't want to take him away. Lawyer explained that custody just means who gets to make decisions for the child. It doesn't necessarily dictate where the child spends his time. Joint custody would not guarantee that I could keep him in this area. Of course, she will have to come at me with guns blazing. I also have to file to be able to freeze our assets. Kinda sad when we went through those, I ain't worth very much. That dang store has actually taken us backwards for years.

Still looking for a sponsor, but I've got calls out, and hope to hear back soon. I am doing OK right now, but don't want to delay any longer. Thank God it's not an emergency.

All in all, a much better day than I have had for a while. I had a good talk with the pastor, and I think it is helpful just to have someone to talk to. My poor mother has been my only support group, and I believe that spreading out to others will help take a burden off of her. She is a good woman. She and Dad both are willing to help me as much as they can with this. They offer some stability for my son, who is suffering with all of this, and I know that it is helping him.

Lawyer said my WW could contest the paternity of our son if I try for custody. I don't know if she would do that or not. It could only make her look bad, and me look good. Also, he said that they really look at the nature of the relationship, more than blood. That is a relief. Don't know what a test would show, but she and I both have brown eyes, and our son's are the most beautiful blue.

Thanks for hangin in there, any ideas of how to deal with her when she finds out would be helpful.

I actually spoke to my wife friday morning. Not for long mind you, but the fog must have thinned enough for the sensible woman to come through. Ever since my exposure, she has been prime for a fight, and does her best to bait me into arguments. I have succeeded for the most part in not falling for it, and have found that she will calm down after a while if I can keep my composure. Anyway, she was telling me that she didn't want to move my son to a different school, and wanted him to go here for at least one more year. During the course of our conversation, she said that if I continue to be nice to her, she will not file for divorce. Now, I had already started my lawyer doing the paperwork for filing, and I could not tell her this. I started wondering if I was doing the right thing by filing. You know, false hope and all. By saturday morning, she was back to her old foggy self.

The OM's mother is being so helpful in destroying my family. She told my WW that she could get her a job down there, rent her a house cheap, and baby sit my son after school. Perhaps it's a good thing that I never was able to reach her by phone. I don't know if I could hold my tongue if I were to talk to her now. I fear that with his whole family behind them, my marriage may be doomed. But I will not give up yet.

I told WW that I will NOT allow my son to be moved to this other town. I told her that if she makes plans to do so, I will contact my lawyer, and try to stop her. She acted suprised that I hadn't already asked the lawyer if I could stop her from moving him. Little does she know that I have. I do so dread the reaction to my filing. I just hope that it helps to keep my son here.

It seems that the big change in her attitude was brought about by my making a deal friday morning to sell the store to someone. We are taking a big hit money wise, but I cannot keep trying to make it work. We are going backwards daily, and if I hold out for more money, I will lose in the long run. Better to get out now, and take the hit. After debts are paid, we probably won't have alot left. She keeps saying that she wanted to invest her half for our son's education, but I fear that her half will be squandered before it gets invested. I hope that filing will allow us to freeze all of the money until the divorce is final.

On Aug. 31, she will lose her house, and her job. She is not sure were to go, and what to do. Of course I am the cause of all of this, because she thinks I want to hurt her. She is finding all kinds of reasons to move down there, and his mom ain't helping my cause any at all. I told her to apply for some jobs around here, and to talk to a realtor about anyone that might have rentals. I told my lawyer that I don't care if I have to help her secure a home around here, I just don't want her taking my son there!

All in all, everything falling apart for her could be considered a good thing as far as "in your face" reality is concerned. I would like it to make her think twice, and consider giving me another chance, but I don't know if it will. She is still blaming me for everything that she does. She keeps saying that she doesn't feel safe with me, and with our past, I can't blame her. But I am trying to show her that she is safe. My exposure seemed to convince her otherwise, and my filing will probably do the same.

U file because U need to protect yourself and your family. As for OM's mom, let her know she is enabling an A. Once you get that acknowlegement, then you will know what u r dealing with.

OM's mom may be fooled into thinking the WS is divorced.

L.

What she means by "nice" is that you stop interfering with her affair. It really doesn't matter if she does not file since she has moved out and is in an affair. She will not be able to use the divorce threat anymore after she finds out you have filed.


you can expect her to blame you for everything, that is TEXTBOOK foggybottom behavior. And your exposure did not make her feel NOT SAFE, it was a direct threat to her affair. Just expect her to condemn any action that interferes with her affair and you won't be surprised.

Right now, your focus should be on the following things, Gale:

1. getting into AA ASAP

2. protecting your son from her affair

3. protecting your finances

4. doing your BEST to NOT lovebust her and to attract her back [this DOES NOT MEAN [censored] kissing]

I will post Pep's definition of Plan A. I want to add that I think you are doing MUCH BETTER! You are not allowing your emotions to send you all over the map and you are sticking to your mission. I also think it was a good move to sell your business. That means you can go into Plan B if you have to.

The Carrot and the Stick of Plan A by Pepperband

The carrot of Plan A


Meeting your wandering spouse's emotional needs.

Making "home" a warm and inviting place to be.

Placing emphasis on what has worked in the marriage.

Showing consistent self improvement in areas where previously lacking.

Stop lovebusting behaviors.

Communicating with a calm reassuring voice and relaxed body language, even in the center of a verbal storm created by the infidel.

Becoming the person any reasonable spouse would want to come home to.

Remaining open to the possibility of recovery.

Offering forgiveness and understanding.



The stick of Plan A


Exposing adultery where it matters most. Exposure that takes the form of a swift and sudden unexpected tsunami of truth.

Not appologizing for exposure or speaking the truth in a kind yet direct way.

Directly communicating the hurt and devastation that the affair has caused.

Not accepting blame for the infidel's choice to become adulterous.

Let the consequences of adultery and infidelity fall freely upon the heads of the adulterous.

Establishing boundaries that disallow the affair to effect children of the marriage, financal security of the marriage, and otherwise ruin innocent bystanders.

Standing up to infidelity as a beast that must be slayed for the good of the family.

Just got back from my first AA meeting. It was good. They were all very warm and welcoming. Working second shift, and living an a rural area, it is hard to find off hours meetings. Most all of them are evenings. I am trying to switch to third shift, partly to work on recovery, and partly to be able to spend time with my son once school starts. If I work seconds, I will never see him. This meeting is on sunday so I can go. I obtained some phone numbers from some of the members, I may call some and ask if they can help me find a sponsor. The topic was "first things first". It made me think really hard about how I have gone about this whole affair event. I have been trying to paint this picture of a happy future for my wife and I, but if I don't work on myself FIRST, we can never reach that goal even if she gives me the chance.

You are so right about her idea of being nice. That is why I can be a nice as can be, and still want to hurt her. Obviously, I am speaking with the beast when she says these things, and I find it helpful to understand who I am speaking to when we interact. No sense debating the beast. It will not listen, and it will turn everything you say against you. On the other hand, if I recognize that my wife may actually be present, it is a good time to slip in a couple of carrots.

In the last couple of months, and especially at first, I was making a lot of disrespectful judgements. I have tried my best not to tell her how she if feeling. I have tried my best not to tell her what she does and doesn't know. But yesterday morning, I told her how I felt about his mother interfering. I told her that I thought this woman must be morally inept at best and down right evil at worst. To encourage this affair, is not only wrong, it is disgusting. WW says that she is just trying to help her start over. WW was upset with me for being blunt about the affair, and I told her, "I love you, and I want to do my best to show you, but I will not mince words when it come to this affair, and how much it is hurting me, and our son."

I have to be at lawyers office at 8:30am to sign some papers, then I guess I will find out about the rest of it.

The MC called me the other day, I made an appt for 11am tomorrow. Gonna be a busy day. I told the MC that I thought she might be mad at me, but she was on vacation, and that is why she didn't call sooner. She said that she has been wanting to talk to me also, so it could be an interesting session. I intend to take my copy of "Surviving an Affair" and showing her what I am trying to do. I think her phylosophy is slightly different than mine, but I don't think she can discourage me from my path.

Thanks for the carrot and stick. I found it on another post awhile back, and printed it out. I have refered to this list, to see if I am on track sometimes. Gotta see if I am sticking to the plan, or wandering off on an emotional sidetrack.

I thank God I found this place. I am so greatful for the help. This beast is strong, and cunning. If it weren't for your advice, I would probably have given up a long time ago.

Morning Gale, I am glad you found this place too. You sound much, much calmer now. Good job on finding an AA meeting. Do they have any noon meetings there? Of course, it would be better all around if you could move to another shift. You could find more AA meetings and see your son.

When you look for a sponsor, look for someone who has sobriety under his belt and who is working the program. STEER CLEAR of any psychobabble artists! And there are plenty in AA just as with most places. Use good judgement, say lots of prayers and God will lead to you the right sponsor.

Good luck at the attorneys this morning. I will check in with you later, friend.

Well, I think I screwed up. Went the lawyers yesterday, and signed papers. Then I went to the MC and we thought it would be cruel to just let my WW get served without warning. So I didn't listen to my lawyer, and I told her that I filed.

She is livid. That is putting it nicely. As of right now, I am dead to her. She is on her way to her lawyers office, and I call mine to tell them I screwed up, and they haven't even taken the papers yet. She may beat me to the punch. My WW wants blood right now, and I fear she may well get it.

We spent five hours on the phone this morning, and I could not convince her that I did it to protect our son. She thinks that everything I do is intended to inflict pain in her, and I cannot convince her differently.

So now it appears I have found myself in an instant planB. She will not let me see my son, and she is going to make me pay.

Guess I feel a little set back right now, but will try to gather myself together, and take care of myself.

Call your attorney's office and make sure they get you Petition filed ASAP - as in this morning. IF her attorney is available to see her (and that is a BIG if - most attorneys go to court in the morning), it will take them at least a few hours to draw up the papers and she will have to review them before they are filed. Unless she has provided them everything they will need, already, you bought a little time. Get hold of your attorney's office and make sure they know those papers need filed right away. Next time, listen to your lawyer.

BB

Gale, please listen to BB, she is an attorney and knows what she is talking about.

And yes, we expected that your W would be livid if you asserted yourself. She can't be expected to like this. But remember what happens when you allow yourself to REACT to her anger? Your emotions go all over the map and you make mistakes. Don't REACT, Gale. Just calm down. She is supposed to be angry.

Get ahold of your attorney just as BB has suggested and CALM DOWN!

I authorized the attorney's office to incure extra expense if they feel it will help our case at all. I know that I should have waited, but I thought he said they would be mailed out yesterday. Obviously that didn't happen. I don't know. My WW already called me back once. Why? Don't know except to pick a fight. I am doing my best to remain calm, she is very angry, and hurt. She is panicking I think, and reacting accordingly. She just kept telling me that she was not going to move my son down there. If I would have waited one more day I would know that. All I had to do was be nice to her, and it was working but no I had to pull the exposure, and now file. I couldn't leave well enough alone.

I know that if all I did was be nice to her, I would have a happy WW with a happy OM and I would be sitting here the patsy. I am the only one that believes that I have done the right thing with the exposure. The MC even thinks that the damage I did to her feelings will take a lot more time to deal with. I don't know. It is too easy to feel sorry for her, and give in. I don't want to pick up the phone if it is her, but if it might be my son, I want to talk to him. She is not going to let me see him now. She says that I wanted to protect him from OM, so now she is going to protect him from me. Wow is she P**sed OFF.

Going to mom's for lunch. I'm not hungry, so I better eat something.

Do not accept her comments about "I am going to protect your son from you" crap. Unless she legally has a reason to restrict you from your son you should get an immediate court order to allow you access to your son. You need to document all of this. "Mr Judge, I exposed my wife's affair according to what my MC told me to do and filed for D to protect my son from my WW's intentions to go and be with another man, her affair buddy. She reacted by threatening me with not seeing my son whom I love and miss."
This will not play well. And, you are correct, you could have given her everything she wanted and you would be;
1. a weekend dad at best
2. replaced by the coming step dad to be
3. get to write a large check each month to her after she was the one that destroyed your M and had an A
4. get left overs in all areas of your previous family's life
5. be financially drained
6. be emotionally devestated
So, you could have played Mr. Nice Guy and got the above. Doesn't seem like a good deal to me for your wife to be "happy".

ummmmmmmm, could there be a little bit of "damage" to YOUR FEELINGS because of her AFFAIR? Was your "damage" and "hurt" ever discussed? I think I may need to smoke some more crack here to be able to comprehend your loony MC and why he is focusing on your wife's "hurt"!

OF COURSE it "hurt" your w's feelings to be outted. Because she was DOING SOMETHING WRONG. That is a CONSEQUENCE of wrong doing. She is hurt becuase she is rightly embarrassed. SHE SHOULD BE EMBARRASSED. She is simply angry that you put pressure on her affair.

It is WRONG to have an affair, it is not wrong to EXPOSE THE AFFAIR!


Gale, Dr. Harley, who is a QUALIFIED, SUCCESSFUL MC, a leading author in the US, would not agree with your MC. So, don't fret. While Harley's principles are not intuitive, just remember that he KNOWS what he is doing and SPECIALIZES in infidelity.


And please stop wasting your time with this MC. As you can see, he is not helping you, he is HARMING you.


She is using your son as a PAWN to get her way. She won't be allowed to get away with this.

Gale, CALM DOWN and stop second guessing yourself. Just because your W is angry, does not mean you are doing the wrong thing. She is angry becuase you are INTERFERING in her nefarious plans to have an affair and drag your son into it.

Well I guess I interfered myself right into a messy divorce if she has her way. The MC wasn't trying to reprimand me for hurting WW's feelings, she was actually trying to understand what I was doing. I do trust this MC, but she doesn't do things the same as Harley. I don't trust my WW or her feelings. I know what I have done in the past to hurt her, but I just suspect the beast is trying to play games with these feelings.

Since I mentioned to the MC that Harley's book says that most affairs die on their own, she doesn't understand why I felt compelled to interfere with the exposure. Why not just let it die? Because I might not love her anymore by then.

After our conversation this morning, my love for her is badly damaged. I have really been thinking that I might be better off without her. I don't want to talk to her right now.

She rushed off to her lawyer, and filed for divorce herself. I figure that hers will get there first, and I don't know if that makes a difference or not. She texted me this evening and she was being smug. Going on about guidelines, and when we are served, the guidelines will take effect, and then I can only see my son by going to her house to visit. She will not let me take him home. I will call the lawyer in the morning to discuss this situation. She says that she has a fear that I might do something. She is really playing this up, and I don't know what she is telling her attorney.

Don't know how long it will take for her to calm down. Don't know if she ever will. I will just steer clear right now. Not sure when I can go to planB for sure, but I hope it's soon. I have had success talking to her in the past, and I want the opportunity to try again, but she has to calm down first. Mom told me that if she calls just hang up on her. If she wakes me up at 4am again, I probably will.

As for right now, she is definitly going to planD, and it's all my fault. yeah right.

Gale, I am not trying to dog your MC just for the sake of dogging her, but this is one of the reasons I believe she is wasting your time. It is not a matter of her doing things differently than Harley, it is a matter of her not understanding the dynamics of infidelity. And since she doesn't under infidelity, she causes harm. Exposure is simply the most effective weapon against affairs, and she doesn't even understand that.

Secondly, marriage counseling while one is in an affair is absolutely worthless. There is no point since recovery is impossible as long as the affair persists.

Did you call your attorney yesterday like we told you to beat her to the punch? What does your attorney say about all this?

You wrote:
"She rushed off to her lawyer, and filed for divorce herself.

A: Get your attorney's butt in gear and walk your papers to the courthouse if need be. NOW!

I figure that hers will get there first, and I don't know if that makes a difference or not.

A: It's not supposed to matter although everything I have read, particularly since you are the wronged spouse, is that if you get yours in first it's better.

She texted me this evening and she was being smug. Going on about guidelines, and when we are served, the guidelines will take effect, and then I can only see my son by going to her house to visit. She will not let me take him home.

A: Don't respond. Let your lawyer respond to her Bullcrap and let him know you don't want him to pull any punches. You are dealing with an alien being who cares nothing about you right now and will take every advantage if you let her. DON'T let her. Respond, Respond quickly and Respond with your own guidelines, acceptable behavior and stipulations. Let her know that you are in control of your emotions and doing what's best for your children and them being with another man whom they don't even know because mommy is having a mid life crisis, has forgotten her vows, is being immoral, etc is not in their best interest.


I will call the lawyer in the morning to discuss this situation. She says that she has a fear that I might do something.\

A: Have your attorney let her know that any false claims will be dealt with harshly, perhaps even file charges of libel or defamation of character.

She is really playing this up, and I don't know what she is telling her attorney."

A: It doesn't matter. You tell your attorney EVERYTHING (even the bad stuff if there is any) so that he/she can prepare for combat if it comes to that.

just talked to the attorney, appologized for messing up. He told me that if I go to her house to visit my son, to take a family member along.

WW called me while I was in the tub this morning. She is calming down, but of course this is all my fault because I filed. I told her that I do not want a divorce, and I want to save this family. She was much more sensible to talk to, but still telling me over and over to be nice, and stop the tricks.

I am trying to figure out what to do now. She says that she will not allow the OM near my son, I will take her word for it right now. we have two weeks until the store sells, and we have a lot of stuff to get out of there. We are going to have to spend some time together, so I cannot go to planB at this time. I am thinking that I need to planA the crap out of her for the next two weeks. I think that if I meet her needs, and instill some units, it could help make planB more effective. This may be my time to show her I am sincere in the changes that I am making in my life, and I am trustworthy despite what she wants to think about the exposure. At the same time I will tell her that this situation is intolerable, and she has to decide what she wants in her life. The better I look to her, the more she will miss.

I will listen to my lawyer, and let him work out the custody arrangements with her lawyer. I must have given him the impression that my son lives with me. That is not the case, we have shared custody of him throughout this separation, and it has worked out rather well. I would like to keep the arrangement the way it is, but she seems to think that I will take him and not bring him back.

It doesn't matter what she thinks.

It matters what the court order says.

I would make it clear in the court order that the OM or any other man that is not related is not to be in the presence of your son. Don't accept her word for anything. It is currently worthless (i.e. affair).

My STBXW has violated a written court order to not expose our son to the OM on four occassions that she doesn't know that we know (which will be used to smack her in court). She promised me that the OM would not be near our son and was TOLD by the Judge not do it and still did it.

What all do you know about the OM's past, his character, (well we know some of this don't we), and so on. Know the OM backwards and forwards and his weaknesses in case this goes to court and your WW aims to be with this OM. It could have a bearing on custody arrangements.

Good luck with selling the store for a handsome price.

Gale, your plan is very sound to Plan A her for the next few weeks, but you MUST, MUST, MUST move forward and get your visitations PROTECTED along with your finances!

Your W has shown that she is willing to go to great lengths to punish you for interfering with her affair, including using your son as a PAWN. Just last week she was threatening to move up close to the OM and take your son away. Yesterday, she threatened to not allow you to see him. So, it is imperative that you NOT BACK off on this because she has demonstrated she will use the boy as a PAWN to manipulate you.

Tell your attorney to BE A SHARK, ok? Let him be the bad guy while you Plan A. But whatever you do, do not allow your wife to scare you into doing things that will harm your finances or your visitations so you can appease her. [Plan A does not stand for [censored] KISSING!] What she means when she says she wants you to be "nice" is she wants you to sit there and TAKE IT and not stand up for yourself and your son. Do you understand?

So, be nice, but tell your attorney to be a SHARK. And be sure he knows that your is having an affair and have ask him to include the OM's name in the papers.

Once you get yourself protected from her, we can help you with your recovery program and with a GREAT PLAN A! But first things first!

I don't know what to say. I am flabbergasted. My Ww calls me just after I wrote my post this morning. We talked about the divorce. I guess my Attorney beat her to the punch, so now she has to sign response papers. It was sorta wierd, cause she had really calmed down alot.

She started telling me about yesterday, when she was calling me all sorts of names, and trying to hurt me really bad. She told me that she did her best to push all of my buttons, and I just kept coming back with love. Then when she went to her lawyers office to file, she started crying because she couldn't believe that it had come to this.

She asked me what I would expect of her if she were to move back home!? I told her that I would not expect much from her. I would expect her willingness to work with me to restore our marriage, and I would expect that OM be out of the picture. I would expect her to let me love her, and meet her needs.

Now where did that come from? I didn't see it coming. I know that she may feel that her back is against the wall, and she might be desperate to try anything to get me to stop the divorce. I wasn't sure. I entertained the idea that God is actually granting me a miracle.

By the time I got to work this afternoon she texted me and asked if she could move back in and work on the marriage!? She seemed to be very excited about the idea, and she even wanted to tell our son. I told her she could, but to make sure he understood that it might not work out. I am not stupid, and I was still unsure of her motives. A little later she told me that she broke up with OM. Now I'm like what the heck is happening!? This was making my head spin. I called her on my break, and talking to her helped ease some of my doubt about her sincerity. She was serious as a heart attack. I of course was still being cautious. I AM still being cautious. I just felt that it can't be this easy. And of course I was right.

By this evening she is second guessing her decision to break up with OM. She misses talking to him, and she is fighting the urge to call him. I know that even if she is serious about working with me, she will have to deal with this desire for the OM. It is classic affair BS. Right down to how he feels that she is his "Soul Mate"! But not to downplay the feelings. She really is in love with this guy, and she doesn't love me.

I stopped at her place on the way home and talked to her. I could tell that she really thinks she made a mistake. It is working on her really bad, and I just kept reassuring her that things will get better. She, of course, cannot imagine how our marriage could ever be as good as this affair. She tells me that he has made her feel better than I ever have in all of our years of marriage. I told her that she is not comparing our first few months with this relationship. Four months cannot be compared to eighteen years. I encouraged her to talk. She didn't want to hurt my feelings, and I told her I can take it. She doesn't know how strong I have become these last few months.

I did my best to show her love, kindness, and understanding. I hope I made it clear enough that if she decides to call him, the world of hurt will come rushing back.

Earlier in the day when she was excited about her decision, she asked when she could start moving back in. I told her that we should talk about it tomorrow. My reasoning is that things change with her on a daily basis, and tomorrow this may all be a forgotten memory. If that is the case, at least I got to talk to my wife for a while.

Don't think for one minute that I trust her. I love her, but I don't trust her. I am taking it with a grain of salt, but whatever works, is OK by me. Hopefully the fact that she told our son that they are moving back will be enough incentive for her to follow through, but we still have to deal with withdrawl.

Don't worry, I know that I am still in the middle of a divorce, and I am not sure what the lawyer will say. She told me that her atty is happy for her. Let's just see what tomorrow brings.

aaaaaargh! I just accidentally deleted a long post! So I will start over again but will have to be brief.

I think what you did had a very good effect in that it is waking her up. But, as you can see, she is not ready yet. The important thing is that you stick to your guns with the divorce in order to protect yourself FOR NOW. Even if she moves in, you need to protect yourself until you know the affair is over and recovery is under way.

In the meantime, you have a short window of time to really work on attracting her back. She has told you that she does not believe that her marriage will ever be as happy as her affair. That means you have to show her that you CAN meet her needs and that the old marriage is DEAD. You can show her that you have stopped drinking, are getting recovery help and are trying to change. You will have to PROVE this to her and learn to be an attractive partner.

I think you have a very short window of time to get this idea across to her and becuase of that I am going to suggest that you consider calling Steve Harley for counseling. Take that money you are wasting on that inexperiened MC of yours and spend it on a PRO. Because he can do something real important: he can give your W HOPE that she can have a happy marriage. It will sound hollow coming from you, though.

He will not waste of a minute of your time. He will assess your situation and give you a workable, EFFECTIVE PLAN to recover your marriage. There is also a strong possibility that he can REACH YOUR wife and help make you an attractive alternative. The man is a genius and is worth every penny. Please think about this, because it will be one of the smartest moves you move, I believe. HE charges $185 [I think] and will not waste a minute of your time with foolishness.

She is having second thoughts. She is heavy in withdrawl. She was so happy today, and positive, and upbeat. By this evening she is mad at me for interfering in her affair, and I should have just left her alone.

Don't know if she will talk to harley. She thinks his methods are crazy, since my exposure.

I am worried sick that she will call him tonight. She didn't give me much hope, except a comment about if I take one drink, she will be gone. That is enough to hold on to for tonight, but I do hope she is strong enough not to call him.

She asked me what would happen if she called him. I told her that all the pain would come back for all of us. She keeps telling me that I talk alot, but actions speak louder than words. I asked how I can show her that I love her, and she just says she doesn't know. What do I do to show her my love?

You will have to PROVE this to her and learn to be an attractive partner.

I don't know how to overcome the pain I have caused her to become attractive to her. I think it will depend upon her mood as to how well it is working.

Gale, Steve Harley can guide you through this and tell you what to say to get her in counseling with him.

It is important that you stick to your plan and stop allowing her moods to drag you all over the map. She is a FALLING DOWN drunk right now and will be up and down, back and forth. She is confused! See, she didn't expect you to be kind and loving or to fight back in a rational, reasonable way, so now she is totally confused. She will stay confused and erractic for a while. JUST EXPECT IT.

Yes, she is having second thoughts. That is an EXPECTATION. That is why I want you to speak to Steve Harley. He can counsel you through this and he can also tell you what to say to get her into counseling.

I agree you will have to PROVE to her that you can be an attractive partner. Assure her that your old marriage IS DEAD and you do not want that marriage back again. When she says, "I don't want to go back to what we had," AGREE WITH HER. Tell her you don't either.

Have you been going to AA meetings? Have you found a sponsor yet?

Gale, have you explained the concepts of Marriage Builders to her? Namely, how it is possible to fall back in love when lovebusters are eliminated and emotional needs are met? CAN you explain this to her? This is what she needs to understand and this is why I really want you to hook up with SH.

What a day. I am not a wreck, but I am really feeling beat down. She called him this morning. Of course everything went to ******, and she whipped right back into full affair fog mode. I was so heartbroken.

I HAD to go to the store and do paperwork. I hadn't done it for two days, and It has to be done. I was an emotional mess while I was doing this, just wanting to talk to her. As soon as I could, I went to her house, and you could see it in her eyes. Yesterday, she was sincere. Yesterday she really wanted to try. Last night, she was struggling, and I should never have left her house. I should have just stayed. But I can't stay forever, I have to clean up sometime. I had to put it in god's hands, and she dropped the ball. So quickly too. I knew that this could happen, but it made me sad that it happened so soon.

She was a wreck. Her nerves were going crazy, and she was shaking and carrying on. She got mad at me, because I didn't try to hug her, "He would have tried to hug me, but you just p**s out." I hadn't tried to hug her, and I don't know why. I didn't realize it was yet another test. Note to self, when she is calling you names, and telling you she wants you out of her life, hug her. I talked to her, and talked some more. OM kept trying to call, and she didn't answer for the longest time. She was physically ill, and I was concerned for her. I had asked her if she wanted me to stay, and she told me yes. When he called her and she answered, she told him that I wouldn't leave.

He was upset, and she let him talk to me. He started chewing my butt, and told me that since I like to "lecture" my wife so much, he was going to lecture me. He started in on me being an alchoholic, and a verbal abuser, and how I didn't deserve to have a chance with my wife. I gave it right back to him, and told him that she was my wife, and I had a right to try and hold my family together. He started saying things like he was going to come up here, and teach me a lesson, and I asked him if he was saying he wanted to kick my a*s. I told him that I already told her that I would take a beating for her so bring it on. He starts trying to tell me that it isn't right that I won't let my WW take our son around him, he isn't trying to replace me. I told him that I was protecting my son for their affair, and that they had no right to expose him to that. He ended up hanging up on me.

She is madly in love with this OM, and he of course thinks that she is his "soul mate". He called back, and she went upstairs for the longest time. I realized the time, and thought I ought to call the lawyer to tell him that it was back on full swing, even though nothing has happened yet. I called up the stairs, and asked her what her lawyers name was. She wanted to know why. I said it looks like were going ahead with the divorce, and I want to let him know. She wouldn't tell me. She came down, and looked at me and said that it looks like I might win by default. I don't believe it. He pulled out his pressure card. Of course HE is not pressuring her, but HE told her that if she gives me a chance, he will have nothing to do with her ever again. Making sure she knows that the door won't be open if she comes back.

Now her physical condition continued to get worse, and she was having trouble breathing, and her chest hurt, and she is numb all over her entire body. I was really getting concerned, and I finally talked her into going to the ER. It appeared that there was nothing wrong, and she said it was a waste of time and money, because it was all in her head. The next thing I know they want to keep her over night. Want to run some tests in the morning, and get her a good night sleep. Wow. She told me that if they find something wrong with her, please call OM and let him know.

So now I missed one day of work because of this, and it appears that I might miss tomorrow too. I don't want to lose my job over this, but I will if it saves the marriage. But if is doesnt' save the marriage, then what?

I have explained and explained and explained to her that her love that she says is gone, can come back. She just swears that I was NEVER the man she needed me to be, and she cannot see how I ever could be. She doesn't see how I can meet her needs. I explained that I have been meeting some of them, and she is seeing that. I tried to negotiate with that in mind. She losses her house in two weeks, and she doesn't have anywhere to go except to OM's. I will not stand for her to take my son there, so she is stuck. I explained that if she moves home, she will have financial security, and a roof over her head, and she can be a mother, and she won't have to go to work right away either. She can be there for our son when he comes home from school. I know that this appeals to her, but not at the price of lossing OM. Guess we'll have to see what happens.

She told alot of people that she was moving back. She was genuinly excited about it. Now I hope that this will encourage her to stick to it. I don't know what it will be like if she actually does still move back. She (and I am certain that OM has put this in her head) is convinced that I will never let her leave this marriage. She believes that I will kill her before I would let her go. I told her that we can get our lawyers together, and negotiate an agreement. That if she honestly works on the marriage, and after a certain time frame is certain that she will not love me, then I will let her go. But of course OM would have already been done with her, so she won't have anyone.

PlanB is on the horizon, but not sure what will happen before then.

ugh! Gale, please ask her to never speak to that creepy scuzbag in your presence again. That is extremely disrespectful and hurtful to you. There is nothing you have done to deserve that and taking part in that only fuels the insanity. She needs you to be the SANE one now since SHE IS NOT. Next time, ask her politely to not take OM's call in your presence. He is a creep who cares nothing about your W and especially your child. For him to complain that he can't be around your child is is breathtaking in its chutzpah and callousness.

Are you drinking and have you been back to AA? Gale, your recovery in AA is the first step in correcting this mess and restoring some sanity to your life. Not only do you need this for yourself, but you need this for your marriage. She cannot even concieve of taking you back until she assured that you are in recovery because alcoholism is the BIGGEST LOVEBUSTER of them all.

Please get back to some meetings this weekend and find yourself a sponsor. Even if you have to call the AA hotline and ask them to assign one for now, you should do it.


She is very distraught, as you can see, and she needs a strong, STABLE SANE presence to guide her out of this morass. Keeping your emotions under control, acting sane [this means NOT talking to the OM and asking her politely to not speak to him in your presence] and being supportive are all attractive behaviors that she needs to see. She needs to be assured that your old marriage is DEAD and you are committed to a NEW ONE.

Believe me, you are miles away from Plan B. If you went into Plan B right now, she would say YIPPEE!! Please keep your focus on these 3 things:

1. protect your child and finances

2. your alcoholism

3. executing the best Plan A you can

I am still sober, and amazed that I haven't had really any temptation to drink throughout this ordeal. I actually think that the ordeal has my mind so busy that it don't have time to tempt me. I have found one AA meeting on Sundays, and I am going tomorrow. I don't want this mess to threaten my sobriety. First things first, and if I drink, I ain't no good to my family.

It appears that the stress is getting to my WW. The tests came back negative, so there isn't anything major wrong with her. She's possibly cooking an ulcer, and she is smoking way too much.

Went to the hospital, and brought her home to her house. I stayed with her all day, and took care of her as best I could. Cleaned her dishes, and did some laundry. Let her sleep.

OM told her that I am like a cult, and I am brainwashing her. She is so worked up now, because she says the scars from the verbal abuse are too deep for her to feel safe with me. She says that OM is trying to protect her from me. I tried to make her understand that I am doing the same thing. I told her that I am convinced that she is going to get hurt, and I am doing my best to prevent it.

She is very weak. I fear that she is having a nervous breakdown. She just wants me to leave her alone. Stop talking to her about saving the marriage, and let her have peace. I tell her that I cannot let her down by stepping back, and letting this man have her. I cannot let this affair destroy our family without doing something about it. Talking to her is about the only thing I can do, so I am doing it. I am not brow beating. I swear. But she says that I lecture her. Well at least the OM does. I think he is the brainwasher here, and I can't get him to shut up. I can't get her to stop calling him either.

I am doing my best to be a sane, rational man. I am showing her that I have changed, and that as a sober man, the anger and abuse are not a threat. I know that if anyone has been abused, it is very traumatic, and she shows all the signs. It makes me think that maybe it went too far, and she can't let me close. But then I am certain that there are others that have had recovery from abuse as well.

I know you don't trust our councelor, but I asked WW if she had talked to MC about the effects of the abuse. She said she hadn't. Now if the abuse was the single most devistating thing in our marriage, why hasn't she brought it up? I don't want to diminish it. I am ashamed of myself, and I want to own my own sh*t. But, it just seems that when one excuse is not working, they come up with something else. I also know for a fact that the abuse was not an everyday thing, but she says it was. I think that she was in a state of mind that my mere presence felt like abuse to her.

Like I said, I spent the entire day with her and my son. We are planning on going shopping together tomorrow to get school clothes for our boy. I wonder if she will feel up to it. I am certain that she is talking to OM right now, and who knows what he's filling her head with.

I got her to think about giving us 30 days. I know that isn't much time to start working on a marriage, but it may show her something. She is stuck right now, and she isn't going anywhere. She is losing her house and job in two weeks, and she isn't looking either. She is coming down to move back with me, or move with OM. I will not let her take our son down there.(this of course is how I use my son to keep them apart)(I really am a SOB ain't I) this leaves moving in with me. I told her yesterday that if she gave us reasonable time, and really tried, I would let her leave if it didn't work. I will not give her the same deal on a thirty day trial. I'm sure that she is trying to figure out how to keep OM around while she moves back in.

My WW is in so much emotional pain right now, and my heart goes out to her. I don't want her to suffer, but I am not causing the pain. She thinks I am, and she thinks that if I just leave her alone, the pain will go away. I am planAing her as best I can. I will think about how I can do it better. Got a big envelope full of legal papers in the mail today, so I will call the lawyer monday, and ask him what we do now. Even if she does move back, I want to get some sort of agreement in the works.

Gale, you are doing a great job taking care of her. I don't know how much of her grievances are real "abuse" and how much are manufactured in order to justify her affair [very common in an affair]. Only you and she know for sure. It might be a good idea to go read up on lovebusters and take an honest assessment of how you have treated her. All you can do for now is avoid lovebusters and do your best to take care of her.

A good read for you would be the book Lovebusters by Dr. Harley. It has a chapter on alcoholism that will be helpful.

I would avoid setting any kind of time limits, because taht can be a set up for disaster that may blow up in your face. For example, it may take her 60 days to come out of her fog. If she only commits to 30 days, then she write you off with your permission in 30 days. It takes what it takes and I assure you that you wont get far in 30 days just knowing the usual pattern of affairs.


See, i would not tell her you "will let her leave" or make any kind of bargain like this. First off, she is not an endentured slave and can leave anytime she chooses. If she does leave, it should NOT BE WITH YOUR SON and should not be with your blessing!

Secondly, I would not EVEN ENTERTAIN the notion that this will not work. Don't even SAY THAT. Simply REFUSE to discuss any alternative other than your marriage working out. Tell her you won't discuss seperation or divorce, you will ONLY DISCUSS recovery because you know that you can have a great marriage. You must be a BROKEN RECORD in this regard.


See, if you had not decided to take a stand and PROTECT your son from this man and this sleazy affair, there would be nothing to stop her. You can pat yourself on the back for putting a stop to that. Just continue to tell her that you will not allow your son to be exposed to this man and her sleazy affair. That is a splash of reality that she needs to hear!

How does she feel you are "causing pain" right now? By interfering in her affair? By exposing her affair and by taking legal steps to protect your boy? How exactly does she feel you are "causing pain?"

I believe that she pretty well blames me for the spot she is in right now. It seems that everything is somehow my fault, and if I had been the man she needed, none of this would have happened. It is such a mess, and her nerves are getting worse. She is visibly shaking quite a bit, and if I say anything about us, or the affair, or moving back, or really anything, she starts gasping for breath, and holding her chest.

I went to her house this morning after working at the store, and she was a wreck. I was wanting to have a good day, and I wasn't going to bring anything up, but it always comes up anyway. My mom called my cell while I was there, and I talked to her in the other room. My WW asked me to get off the phone because it was rude of me to talk about her in her house. I thought that was funny considering her consideration for my feelings on friday. She just kept telling me that I don't understand. I would really like her to make me understand. She says that the fear of coming back home, and me taking another drink is too much for her. She fears that if she comes back, and I start up again, she will be lost forever. I can understand this fear, and I explained that I don't want that to ever happen to her. I fear that drink more than she does, and I have to make sure I never take it. But, I cannot guarantee that I won't take it. I cannot promise her that I won't take it. I can promise that I will do everything in my power to not take it, but there is no certainty for her. I am still new to sobriety, and there is a lot of room for doubt on her part. I have to consider this as a legitimate concern, and I have to find a way to persuade her in spite of it. I still think that OM is working her up, and making it all worse than it was(the fear, not the abuse). I told her that I think HE is the one brainwashing her, and that made her mad.

Despite all the pain she still wants to be friends, and doesn't believe that she can ever find that love for me ever again. I told her that the simple fact that she wants to be friends is all the hope I need to believe that the love can be restored. She didn't like this, said she was trying to reach out to me and I start up again. I said that friendship IS all I am asking for right now, and I continue to have hope because of it.

We went shopping for school clothes for our son, and it was sorta up and down as far as her mood. On the way home, she took the long way(she still won't let me drive) and tried to explain once again that there is no hope for us. But she did it a little different, and said that she should have got a divorce before taking up with this man. She really seemed to listen to me this time when I explained why I filed for divorce, and why I feel that our son needs protected from this relationship. She actually said that if this guy wasn't in the picture, she might actually be willing to give us a chance. Now what have I been saying all this time? I didn't respond to that comment harshly. She was thinking, and I didn't want to screw it up by opening my mouth. I tried to make her understand how strongly I feel about protecting her and our son from the man I have been in the past. When we got back to her house, she looked in the phone book trying to find a number for Al-Anon. Now these are all good signs I know, and it gives me more hope. I told her that I will ask tonight about al-anon, and see if anyone can point us in the right direction.

I did have a set back, and I hope I didn't blow all of the day's progress. Our son had a melt down, and I tried to hold him because he was flopping all over the place, and then he ran away from me saying he was afraid of me. This just about broke my heart, because I have never hurt him, and I don't know why he acted that way. I know her stress has had him uptight, but he was running from me, and I told her that I didn't know what to do. I am upset with myself for asking for her help, when I am trying to portray myself as a better man, who is capable of taking care of problems. This one slipped by me, and like I said, I hope it doesn't work against us in the long run. I know that everything I do, is held up against OM, and he does no wrong.

Why is it whenever I try to talk to her, I am giving her a lecture, but she is just telling me how she feels.

I have been thinking and thinking about how I am causing her pain. I caused her pain when I found out who this man was despite her best efforts to hide his identity from me. I caused her pain when I exposed the affair to a list of email addresses that was attached to one of his emails. I caused her pain when I filed for divorce because I was trying to take her child away from her. I cause her pain every time I talk to her about ending this affair, and working with me to restore our marriage to health. Basically I cause her pain when I attack the affair.

So I must be doing something right. She is unfaultering in her argument that it is not an affair. She did not love me for a long time before this man came into her life. She was done with me, and did not want to stay married to me. She had left our home and separated from me. BUT, she never once said it before he came into her life, and I CANNOT believe it is true because of that. Even if it is true, I reject it because even after he came into her life, she continued to tell me that she wanted to work on our marriage. She did this right up until I asked her if there was someone else, and she admitted to it.

Her own dishonesty has led to this affair, and my calling it that upsets her so much that she feels pain. So what pain am I causing? perhaps what I say and what she hears are two different things. Perhaps, when I call it an affair, she hears me calling her a dirty little adultress. She says there is nothing wrong with what they are doing, but she doesn't fight me about keeping our son away from OM. She knows what she is doing is wrong, but she doesn't want to believe that she is a bad person. I don't want her to believe that she is a bad person either, but calling it an affair tells her that I think she is, at least that is what she hears.

OM seems to want to think that he is her hero, saving her from the abusive, drunk SOB that I am. Protecting my wife from her ****** husband who is hellbent on destroying her completely, and having failed so far is trying desparately to hold on to her. I can't believe the nerve he had talking to me the other day like I was some stranger bugging his woman. You are right. Don't talk to him anymore. Don't give him the pleasure of even trying to talk down to me.

She is stuck. If she goes to him, I will not let our son go with her. If she goes to me, she thinks I will destroy her. I told her that we need to find her a place to live, because I don't really want her to come back unless she is willing to give us a chance. I am actually struggling with that right now, because I cannot let them out in the cold. I will let her back in if she comes to me. I never asked her to leave in the first place. Unfortunately, I will not be able to trust that OM will be gone if she does. He says he will be through with her if she comes back. For some reason I cannot trust that he is a man of his word. perhaps I should not let her in unless she writes a NC letter. Perhaps I won't have to struggle with the problem at all. this morning she was telling me to just take our son because she wasn't doing him any good by the shape she was in. I told her that he needs her. I told her that she needs to keep it together for him.

So how am I causing her pain? Am I driving her insane with my attempts to save our marriage? Am I destroying her nerves with my heartfelt talk about how we can restore our marriage to something that we only dream of? Or is she causing her own pain by fighting against me, and what she knows is possible? She really seems to think that she has found something good in the OM. I know, I know, but this is what she believes, and it is really hard to compete with. She believe that he has brought something out in her, that I never have. The thing is I still see someone that doesn't seem too happy with where she is at. One could make an argument that the reason I don't see it is because when I am around the happiness fades. One could also say that perhaps the reality of the mess she has made is beating the he*l out of her inside, and she is about done for.

She is hooked on OM, she doesn't want to lose that feeling. I DO understand that. I am an alchoholic. And as an alchoholic, I do so understand about holding on to something that is destroying everything around you that you hold dear. I understand that to stop drinking I needed to be hit upside the head with a Mack truck. I needed to feel so much pain that I cried out to god to take it away from me. I needed to hurt so bad that I begged god to save me from myself. I don't know how much she can take, and I don't want it to kill her, but her Mack truck is rolling in, and I have to step out of the way and let it hit her. This is one of the hardest things for me to do. I want to protect her. I want to save her, but I know that i cannot. For years she enabled me to drink. She kept making excuses for me. She enabled me to destroy her spirit, and how do I repay her, by letting her suffer. After all, that is what she should have done to me.

My poor WW. What have I done to her? What devistation have I brought upon her wounded spirit? I want so much to make it all up to her. I crave the opportunity to hold her and tell her that it will all be OK. All she wants me to do is leave her alone. This I cannot do. I have to keep showing her my love, and asking her to save our family.

Gale, you are correct that much of the "pain" she talks about is self inflicted. It comes from the realization that she is doing something wrong. Very wrong, and she knows it. That being said, I think it is good that you call it what it is: an affair, but try and stay away from saying anything bad about the OM. Yes, he is a creep, but when you say that it makes her defend him. And that is the last place you want her to be.

I agree that she should be scared of your drinking again. But she really needs to see a concerted effort on your part towards recovery or she SHOULD BE scared. You spoke about changing shifts so you can hit night meetings. How is that coming along? And did you get a sponsor??

You mentioned that she wanted to go to Alanon? Will she go there? And what about asking her to go to an OPEN AA meeting with you? Would she do that? I think if you get her involved in your program of recovery, she might feel better. But until you start hitting regular meetings, working the program with sponsor, she should be scared of you.

Can you get her to move home? That would deal a huge blow to her affair.

Should I let her move home even if she insists on continuing the affair? That is my struggle right now. She told me again that she wants to be my friend. She wants to sit down to coffee with me. I want that too, but I won't have it if we divorce. I won't be able to do that. But, if I stop telling her that friendship is what I need to build on, and just start building on it, PlanA might work. If I let her move home, she cannot feel trapped. She of course would be free to leave any time she wants.

We started getting stuff out of the store this morning, and she and I were looking at stuff that brought back memories. If I get her to move home, we could do the same thing here. Perhaps we could really make contact. I am starting to think that I should encourage her to move home with no strings attached. If she wants out in a month, she can leave, but no time limits for recovery. No mention of recovery right now. Tell her that she needs to work on her, and I need to work on me, and then we can deal with us.

I will approach her with this as soon as I get back to the store, and see what she says.

I asked for help finding a sponsor last night, and talking with a man, I decided to ask a man in my town that might be willing to do it. He has been burning the candle mostly by himself at the meetings on Sat. night, because noone comes. I will go next saturday night, and talk with him. It might just be me and him, but that could be very good.

I got a number for her to call about al-anon, and i hope she uses it. If she is home, it will be easier for me to show her that I am really working on me.

I am going to third shift at the first of september, then I can hit some more meetings and also see my family more.

Thanks again for helping me. You are a true godsend, and I don't know how I could ever repay you for your patience, and guidance. Pat yourself on the back. You deserve it.

Yesterday, when I got back to the store, I told her that if she cannot find a place to live, and she still wants to consider it, I would let her move home with no strings attached. She thanked me for that, and didn't say much else. I also approached her with an idea I have had for a long time.

She is a NASCAR fan, and this saturday is her birthday. Even before the affair came to light, I had been thinking of getting her tickets to the race at Bristol for her birthday. She has always wanted to go, and I thought it would really make her happy if she could. She was hesitant, and said she would have to think about it. A little later, I called her and told her that I figure she is scared to go to the race with me, and since I want this for her, I think she should go, and take her friend from work with her. I said I would NOT buy a ticket for OM, but she and this other girl have been joking about going to this race for months, and I thought they might enjoy it. Now this made her consider it.

Last night I texted her and asked if she had asked this girl. She told me that they were getting excited about it, and then my FIL calls and tells her that they took MIL to the hospital. So now she doesn't want to buy tickets only to have her mother pass away, and have to miss the race. I understand that she is very afraid of the let down, and she may feel a lot of guilt if she goes to the race while her mother is dying. This morning I talked to her, and told her that FIL is always exaggerating things, and he wants her to feel guilty for not being there 24/7. She told me to buy the tickets. So now I have ordered them, and I am holding my breath that I didn't get ripped off, or that they won't show up or something. I really want her to have a good day, and I want her to have it without OM. I know that this is a big part of my offer, but like I said, if he wasn't in the picture I still wanted her to go.

I have to wait and see what will come of my offer to let her move in. I don't know how much she is talking to him. I really don't have any idea because she ain't talkin, and I ain't askin. I am doing my best to be her friend right now, and show her my love in the ways she will let me. I will need to figure some things out if she does come home though.

Well, this is the reason I wanted you to counsel with SH, because I think this might be a great opportunity for you to inflict a huge blow to the affair and to more effectively conduct Plan A. It will infuriate the OM if she moves home and cause great conflict.

However, she cannot expect you to live with her while having an affair. Nor are you her "friend," but her husband. If she wants to end her affair and work on your marriage, then you should allow her to come home. However, if she is looking for a flop house while she carries on her affair right under your nose, she is looking in the wrong place.

So, it really depends on HER, Gale. But under no circumstances should you allow her to come back just to make it easier to carry on like an alley cat in heat. Not only would that be the height of cruelty to you, but would cause her to lose all respect for you.

Great job on seeking a sponsor. As he will tell you, more meetings are going to be necessary. The ladies I sponsor have to go to 90 meetings in 90 days! [my nickname is satan! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />]It is a very effective introduction to the world of Sane Living! I dont know if I mentioned it, but I am a 21 yr member of AA and have the greatest confidence in its steps. I want you to have what I have before you lose anything more. And thank you for your gratitude, I am more than happy to help where I can. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I think one of the reasons she declined your offer to a Nascar race is because it is too long of a time frame to be stuck with you. She would be obligated to be stuck with you for hours and the thought scares her.

Instead, try to woo her with SHORTER dates that are very close by so she can escape if need be. She won't be so scared to take that chance.

In the meantime, work very hard on attracting her back by avoiding lovebusters, doing your best to meet her needs, and by demonstrating a COMMITMENT to program of RECOVERY for your drinking. She needs to see proof that you are safe to return to and not just talking crap like we alcoholics are so good at.

And most of all: please stop agreeing to be her "friend." You are her HUSBAND and will not settle for less. The reason she says she wants you to be her "friend" is so taht you will be NICE and not object while she destroys your marriage. That is WHY she speaks of being your "friend." So, tell her instead, that you are her HUSBAND and not her "friend."

I will leave you one other thought: in every dealing with your wife ask yourself "am I more or less attractive than the OM?" EVery time you lovebust her you make the OM look good; just remember that. And since he does not have the benefit of MB, he will eventually start lovebusting her as she draws closer to you.

This whole friend thing has been a real pain for me. Of course I am still learning to shut my mouth. I do want to be her friend, and her husband. If I cannot be her husband, I will most likely not want to be her friend either. I see what you mean. Friend does not mean husband, but husband does mean friend.

Now as for lovebusting. I wonder if I did it today. You know that I offered to buy the tickets for her to go to the race. This morning she wasn't sure about it because of her mom being in hospital. FIL says it was bad, but he does blow everything out of proportion. I told her that he is going to say anything to make her feel guilty for not being there 24/7 so she told me to buy the tickets. They are supposed to arrive tomorrow.

Now this evening she seems upset about the whole thing. Seems that the stress of driving 8 hours to get there and all the walking, and two women alone, is just too much. She was actually trying to make me feel bad for forcing her to go to the race. I started wondering if I didn't push to hard for her to go. I am wondering if I haven't done this before, thinking I was trying to be nice, and really pushing something on her. That has to be a love buster.

We were texting, and she just kept going on and on about all the stress she is under, and I don't understand. I told her that I want to help any way I can, but it doesn't seem to do any good. She went to our councelor today. I know, but she will not look at Harley, and I do believe this woman wants to save our marriage. My WW trusts her, so this is where we are. All she told me about the session was that MC helped her discover what her real fears were. She also said she needs to find a home and a job. So I guess that they decided it is not a good idea to move home right now. I wasn't happy to hear that. I do want to get her here to planA her big time. I guess I will find out more tomorrow. Even if she finds a place, she will need help moving, and I will be the one to do it. Gotta take care of my family any way I can.

I am trying to look as good as I can to her. I think I am doing pretty good about lovebusters, but I still talk to her too much about our relationship. The dust has not had a chance to settle around here. I want to just have the chance to PlanA, but things are still very raw from the exposure. She will not forgive me for it, she was so so hurt by that. I think she is milking it. Like I said, it seems that every time I deal with one problem, she develops another one. I want to attack the affair, but not constantly. I want to love her, and make her feel safe.

It bothers me that most of the time she sees me, I am not dressed very nice, because my work is very dirty, and my work clothes aren't very flattering. I do my best with what I have though, and the fact I have a job makes me better than OM. I haven't done my best to look attractive to her for a long time. Her rejection led me to feel that it didn't matter. I would try to look nice, and get no reaction. It is such a mess that we have made.

So patience is the word for the day. I was feeling low earlier this evening, so I asked god to help lift me up a little. I feel a little better now, so I know he's still listening.

This might be annoying behavior, but not really a lovebuster, but I think you may be onto something here. She may have agreed just to avoid upsetting you. Not a very good approach at all.


She will forgive you. And if she keeps saying she is "hurt" by this, tell her you are "hurt" by her affair. She is hurt by the natural consequencess of her behavior. You are hurt because you have been victimized by her affair. So please don't generate any inappropriate guilt for exposing her, she will just use it as a weapon against you.


Do you see how the MC is working AGAINST your marriage and not for it? This is exactly what usually happens with an inexperienced, unqualified counselor. She is counseling your W to do what is best for herself, and not neccessarily what is best for your marriage. She doesn't understand infidelity and can't treat it. Please consider calling Harley if you want to save your marriage, Gale. Even though your W might not come to counseling, he can guide you out of this morass.

hehee When I talk about being attractive, I mostly meant ACTING in attractive ways. Of course, that would include looking attractive, but mostly it means acting in ways that will attract her back by making you more attractive than the OM.

On the Nascar thing, do you think you were too pushy about that? Do you have a track record [pun? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />] with that?

I was pretty certain about what you meant by being attractive to my WW. I also know that she has told me quite often that she is not attracted to me. Remember, she said that when she looks at me, she sees the boogyman. I know that my actions will speak much louder than my outward appearance, but I also want to look physically attractive to her also. I have lost 35 pounds throughout this experience, and she told me that I look sick. Now I didn't think I looked that bad, but 35 pounds is a big difference. Last week she told me what calogne she likes, so I got some. Of course a little demon in my head told me that now I probably remind her of OM. I also think that if I get uniforms for work, she will find that much more attractive even when I am going to work. She always liked me in my work clothes in the past.

Now about the track record. I do think that there has been a pattern throughout our marriage where I believe strongly about something, and she gives in. I believe that buying our house was the ultimate example of this, because she seemed to go along with it, but once we moved in, she constantly berated the house, and me. She didn't like it, and wished we had looked at others. She told me once, that moving here was when she lost respect for me. Taking a good hard look at myself, I never meant to impose my will, but I see where I have done this time and time again. I don't think it is all me. I think that she just gives in too easy to shut me up, then gets her jabs in later. Last sunday on the way home, we were talking about getting stuff out of the store. I had mentioned that we might as well just start moving out in broad daylight since it seems the whole town knows that we have sold. She wanted to do it at night after we close because she didn't want everyone to advertise it. She made a comment about me not thinking it mattered, so we might as well do what I want to do. I scolded her. I told her that one of our problems has been her giving in to me when she wanted something else. I told her that we cannot have that in a good marriage, and it must stop. I told her that I want US to decide what is best for US. So, I have opened my eyes to yet another thing that has served to destroy our marriage. Armed with this knowledge, I will strive to keep it from happening.

I talked to WW briefly this morning, and what I got is that the MC is concerned for my wifes physical and emotional health. Our little trip to the hospital last weekend, was a classic sign of an anxiety attack. The MC has experience with this, and I am certain is trying to give my wife options for reducing the stress in her life, before it kills her. It's sorta my catch22. I don't want to kill my wife, but my plan has called for putting her into a very stressed situation. I know that it can either make you or break you, and perhaps the MC feels that it is breaking my WW. I will schedule another appt with MC to try and explain my plan better. Don't know if it will help, because I will not get my WW away from her now. I will call Harley, I was afraid to spend the money, because I will have to charge it. I am breaking my bank, and I can't spend much more.

I can't tell MC to councel my WW in any certain way, but if I can make her look at the affair the same way she would look at an addiction, perhaps she will change her approach. If I can make the MC understand that I am not causing my WW's pain, but the affair is, just like my WW didn't cause my pain, but the alcohol did. Perhaps she will start treating my wife like the addict that she is.

It is not easy being the only one that sees her this way. I don't know if it's the hollywood effect that makes people seem to think that it is just fine for this to happen or not. My WW just keeps telling me that her friend doesn't think this is an affair, but I know that if this woman was in my shoes right now she would definitely know that it is.

Thanks again, and congratulations on 21 years. There was a woman who recieved her 7 year token last sunday, and you could see the pride in her face. They were also talking about a man with years of sobriety who slipped, and blew his brains out on his sister front porch. God how I fear this beast.

You are not alone, so dont despair. Most thinking, rational individuals know very well what an affair is. If the "friend" were a thinking, rational woman, she would know it is an affair. Perhaps she could use a dictionary? An affair is an affair. There is no way a rational person could view it any other way. She is just not a bright gal.

I am VERY GLAD that you are going to call Harley. I think he can help you assess this situation and give you an effective plan to reach your wife. He is a genius at reaching wayward spouses, if they can be reached. And I suspect she can be reached.

I see some pretty common behavior patterns on her part that are typical in spouses of alcoholics. They agree to things they don't really agree with and then blame the party that effected such agreement. I suspect, though, that she developed this defense mechanism because you weren't exactly a peach when you didn't get your own way. I know I sure wasn't. But that does not excuse her from owning her own decisions. Instead, I see her blaming you for everything. Just as she is blaming you for having to face the consequences of her affair.


I think she is encouraging your wife to act like a victim, which only prevents her from taking an honest look at herself. Granted, she does have some grievances, but playing the victim will not empower her to overcome these issues in a sane and productive way.

See, there is a huge difference between "hurting" because someone actually harmed you and "hurting" because you have to face the consequences of your actions. This MC does not seem to know the difference. Your W is embarrassed because her wrongdoing was exposed, not because you exposed her. If you exposed that your wife won a million bucks, she wouldn't feel hurt, would she? Of course she wouldn't, becuase the action you exposed was not embarrassing.

Went to talk to the pastor today. He is a nice man. He listens to me, and makes a few suggestions, and he prays for us. We haven't talked about religion much, which is good, because I know that we don't see eye to eye. I am planning on taking my son to another church with me this sunday. It will be the first time I have gone to church in about twenty years. It will be the first time I ever went because I wanted to. I don't feel like I need to go, but I would like to find some place to meet people, as I am not really the outgoing type, and god knows I don't want to go to the bars. I also figure that I might be able to build this relationship with god a little better in that environment. Who knows, we'll see.

Anyway, I asked the pastor what he would do if I came to him as a practicing alcoholic, complaining of my problems. Would he try to make me feel better about my problems without addressing the alcohol? or would he just tell me that until I quit drinking, there is no solving my problems. This is what my WW needs. I must make that plain to MC.

I didn't get to call Harley today, I plan on doing it first thing in the morning. I got busy with the store, and then had to rush to work. Gotta get better at managing my time.

I did have a nice conversation with WW this evening on my break. Didn't talk about much, she did mention that she is proud of me with my drinking. She is also proud of the way I have been with my son. I know that I always felt like I gave him plenty of time, but she says I never got involved. I did get involved as long as I had beer along. I am being a much better father, and I have a lot to learn. I want to be involved in his life as much as possible. I did mention to her that she can still come home if she wants to. She thanked me for that. It is nice to just talk to her, without all of our crap getting in the way.

Just called Harley's office. I got an appt for 6am next wednesday. First available one. I do hope that he can help me with this. I am counting on it.

Haven't talked to my WW much today. Yesterday, I couldn't get ahold of her all afternoon. She said she fell asleep, and almost missed picking up our son from school. I don't think I believe her, because she didn't get to see OM last weekend, and That is probably where she was at, but I won't let that bother me. Why should I expect her to be honest with me right now. I will let her lie, and let her believe that I accept what she tells me. It does me no good to fret over these things. As long as the affair goes on, I have to live with the knowledge that she is going to see this man. In fact, to get where I want to go, she will have to probably see much more of him. Don't know for sure.

These last few weeks have just been a whirlwind of emotion for both of us, and I am really hoping it will settle down a little so that I can better implement PlanA. I do so want to toss some carrots her way, but the effects of my sticks have been many, and I feel kinda ragged.

I am doing my best not to reach out to her. I slip sometimes, and text her just to say hi. I just want contact with her, and I think she finds it annoying. I have to find a way to get my mind off of her sometimes, because it does seem almost like an obsession. I cannot let myself do things that might frighten her away from me. I have to be stronger, and more confident with myself. I love her so much, and I let that cause me to feel this sense of urgency when I need to find patience. I will pray for help with this, and have faith that God will.

This whole race thing has blown up to be a major cause of stress for her. I talked to her last night, and she is just so negative. She cannot find any roses. The thorns are so many. I actually apologized for offering. I am sorry that I did it. Actually I am more sorry for myself that I offered than I am sorry for what she is going through because of it.

I wanted to give her something that she really wanted. But I did it on such a short notice, that there is no time to prepare. One of her favorite things to say is "you don't understand". the stress keeps building for her, and I don't want her to have a nervous breakdown. I saw her yesterday, and when I came around, she just started shaking. I am just so certain that the OM is building on her fears, and making them worse. It makes me so angry. I am not sure how to deal with it other than be non threatening.

She got a summons or something to do with the divorce in the mail yesterday. She told me that she thought that I put the divorce on hold. Now last week, when she was coming home, we mentioned putting the divorce on hold, but she changed her mind, and I am not putting things off for now. I am going to do my best to get temporary custody of our son. I am going to do my best to see that she cannot take whatever money is left from the store and spend it.

She said before that the store money was going to be invested for our son's education. Now she says she will need that money to live. I understand a lot more that she does what's going on right now, and I am just not doing a very good job of making it clear to her. I did take her concern about the divorce as a good sign that she doesn't want a divorce. See, there is still hope.

I am still going to try and get her to move home. She has about two weeks to find work, and shelter. We have a bunch of stuff to get out of the store before the end of the week, and I hope that she gets to the point that she sees no other option but moving home. I am certain that if she comes back that way, she will do whatever she can to keep OM in the wings.

Gale, have you hidden the store money so she can't plunder it? I am very relieved that you didn't put your D on hold. That was a smart move, because as you can see, she has done a complete flip.

You know, I would suggest that you throw yourself into AA and a good Plan A to help her relax about you. Throw those Nascar tickets away and tell her you are sorry for putting her in that position. STOP pushing her about you relationship and focus instead on being as pleasant as possible. No pressure, just pleasant conversation. Pleasant, pleasant, pleasant.


I think this is something you should let Steve Harley help you with. On the one hand, I think it would be easier to conduct Plan A with her in your home, but on the other hand, you don't want to be in a position where you are being used as a flop house while she carries on like an alley cat in heat. That could be a disaster!

Which Harley books do you have, Gale? Have you read the articles here on Lovebusters? [the link is to the right of this webpage]

As much trouble as the race has caused, she really does want to go. She just doesn't seem to want me to think so. She thought she lost the tickets this morning, and she was threatening to kill someone if she couldn't find them.

I agree with you completely about AA and PlanA. And I am just trying to be as pleasant as a peach to her. I am not trying to force myself on her if I can help it.

One positive this morning. She had to renew her drivers license, and I noticed that she did not change her address. If I would ask, I'm sure she would say that since she is moving, she didn't want to bother changing it now just to do it again, but I can't help but think that she might believe that she won't have to change it at all.

I have "surviving an affair", and "give and take" got the second one from a councelor that we went to, but I wasn't willing to listen to him about the alcohol. Funny but at the time I blamed her for not trying and using my drinking to pass the buck on the "real" problem. What a fool an alcoholic can be.

Like I said. She is down on Harley. Big time. She thinks the lovebank, and lovebusters are a bunch of hokey BS. I think that she believes the concept is sound, but thinks the terminology makes it sound stupid. I don't know for sure, but If I keep working the plan, she may turn around. Of course working on the real problems like my drinking will go a long way as well.

The race has come and gone. She said she had a good time. I haven't been able to talk to her, and I doubt that I will get much more than that. She said that it didn't seem like her birthday, and she had tears in her eyes. She drove all the way down there, and all the way back. She is exhausted. Now she is on the way to see her mother who is in the hospital two hours away. I am so afraid for her. It sounds like her mother is giving up, and may pass away at any time. I don't want my WW to go through this alone, and I don't want her to go through it with OM either. I am being supportive, and telling her that everything will be allright. I offered to go with her to see her mom, but she declined. I really do have to work when I can this week, I cannot afford to lose my job right now. I cannot be there, and I am so afraid how this is effecting her.

To add insult to injury, the court set our hearing date for the same day that her dad died. She said thanks for the court date, and I told her that I have nothing to do with the dates. I told her that I don't want to go to court, and I want to save our family.

tried church yesterday. I don't know if that was the one for me or not. My son didn't want to go, so it was hard to just sit back and listen. I will probably try it again, but I think that AA is going to get me farther right now, and I want to concentrate on that mostly. One more week of 2nd shift, then my options will open up a little.

I keep praying that God will help me save this marriage.

Gale, great news on your shift change! When is your session with Steve Harley? I think he will be a GREAT HELP in your situation because he can help you attract your wife back.

Please also tell him everything you told me about your drinking and that you are now in AA. Did you find a sponsor yet?

I'm supposed to talk to Harley at 6 am wednesday. Hope I don't oversleep. I do hope he can help me, because I am at a loss as to where to go from here.

I have not been able to talk to her all week, and I really don't know what is going on in her head. I don't know if she is still open to giving the marriage a chance or not. I expect not, but I need to talk to her to find out. With everything else going on, I don't know if she has any idea what she wants to do.

We've hardly gotten anything moved out of the store, and we have two more days to do it. I expect that she will help me tomorrow to get stuff done.

She was very upset today. Her mother wasn't very nice to her when she went to see her. To make things worse, I text her and told her that I was praying for her and her mother. She told me to drop the religious crap. She thinks that I am becoming a bible thumper, and if I mention god, it is instant turn off. Unfortunately I didn't drop it all together, because she asked why god would let her mother suffer like she is. I told her that god didn't cause the suffering, but he could make the pain more bearable.

It just seems that the more my wife suffers emotionally, the madder at god she gets. It's like she is blaming him for her mistakes, and she believes that he wants her to suffer. I on the other hand have realized that to stay sober, I need to rely on god to guide me. I was suffering, and I cried out to him to help me. I have no desire to be a bible thumper, but I have found a good thing, and I want to share it with her. I believe that god is the key to the happiness that she is seeking, and I want to help her find it. I think the only way to share it with her is to live it. This is why I want her to come home. So I can show her that god has changed me, and my determination to save our marriage is made possible only by the love that he has given me.

Like I told her. It took a mack truck hitting me upside the head to change. Now I'm looking for her mack truck.

Still no sponsor. I talked to a man, and he is going to help me find one kinda. He didn't think he was the right person to do it. He eased my fear about not finding one right away though, and he is more than willing to help me any way he can. So, he is my unofficial sponsor for the time being whether he likes it or not.

Gale, I suspect the reason she doesn't want to hear about God is because she can't face him right now. She is having an affair and has broken up her family, so He is the last guy she wants to face.

When you get out to more meetings it will be easier to find a sponsor that like. It will also be a good idea to find a home group and get signed up on their birthday list. [depending on what their local tradition is] Volunteering to make coffee and help with set up will also be a huge help in making you feel part of the group.

I am looking forward to hearing what Steve Harley says about your situation. He is very, very good!

I feel kinda sick right now. I had to ask her where she is at right now. I upset her at the store this morning, she said this is not the time or the place to talk. I agreed, but I said that if she has her way there will never be a time or place. So, she is angry at me again, but I seem to get better results when she is angry.

She says she will not move back home because the anxiety that the thought of coming home created, ended her up in the hospital. She says that she will feel trapped if she comes home. I probably made a mistake by telling her that I think the OM is putting fears into her, and she is believing everything that he says. Oh well, I may have set myself back again. I just had to find out what is on her mind.

Gale, just back off for now and let her come to you. I think she feels very pressured by you and if you bring this up, she feels cornered. Just work on being as pleasant as possible. Its not the end of the world, so don't despair!

I talked with Steve Harley this morning. He said he thinks that I am on the right track. I did my best to explain our situation to him, and he offered some suggestions. He wants me to try and get her to talk to him. This may be a hard sell for me. I am not sure if she will or not, but he said to just lay it at her feet, and see if she will take it. Tell her that he would like to get her perspective on our situation to better help me deal with things. Told me to leave the beast alone right now, and just concentrate on the carrots of planA. Pretty much what you have been telling me. He said to stay in touch here, and you won't steer me wrong.

My WW and I are supposed to clean the store out tonight after I get off work. It will just be the two of us alone, and I am certain that she is scared to death of what I am going to do or say. I will do my best to simply be kind, and give her some of that peace that she desires.

I would like her to come home, but it cannot be an option to let her back in with OM in the picture. Again patience is what I need to exercise, and I cannot let my emotions lead me astray. As I have been reading the Big Book, I have been coming to understand how god is working with me. I know I have a long way to go, but I really am kinda excited about what the future holds in store for me. I do so hope that I have the opportunity to share this new outlook with my wife.

My friend suggested a man to me that may be a good sponsor. He said it would do us both some good. I plan on talking with him soon. I could use some help with step 4, because I am not sure how to go about it. I know that I have wronged people in the past, but I am not certain if I have left a huge trail of tears. I know for certain about my WW and my son, my parents, and hers. Other than that, I am drawing blanks. As a functioning alcoholic, I never really went out and stirred up much trouble. Mainly kept it here at home. I will ask for help with this, and I will also pray about it. First things first, and there is no sense in trying to work step 9 if I haven't done the other steps first.

Gale, do you feel better after talking to Steve? I think he is just a genius and if you can your wife to talk to him in order "to help you," of course, he may be able to give her SOME HOPE. Because I believe she is hopeless right now. He may be able to turn that around.

Why did your friend suggest that it would do this man some good to sponsor you? That makes me nervous. A good sponsor should have several years of sobriety, attend regular meetings and demonstrate that he practices these principles in his own life. Stay away from anyone whose life is a mess! How long has this guy been sober?

Did you tell Steve that you are an alcoholic?

The Carrot and the Stick of Plan A by Pepperband

The carrot of Plan A <----focus on this


Meeting your wandering spouse's emotional needs.

Making "home" a warm and inviting place to be.

Placing emphasis on what has worked in the marriage.

Showing consistent self improvement in areas where previously lacking.

Stop lovebusting behaviors.

Communicating with a calm reassuring voice and relaxed body language, even in the center of a verbal storm created by the infidel.

Becoming the person any reasonable spouse would want to come home to.

Remaining open to the possibility of recovery.

Offering forgiveness and understanding.



The stick of Plan A


Exposing adultery where it matters most. Exposure that takes the form of a swift and sudden unexpected tsunami of truth.

Not appologizing for exposure or speaking the truth in a kind yet direct way.

Directly communicating the hurt and devastation that the affair has caused.

Not accepting blame for the infidel's choice to become adulterous.

Let the consequences of adultery and infidelity fall freely upon the heads of the adulterous.

Establishing boundaries that disallow the affair to effect children of the marriage, financal security of the marriage, and otherwise ruin innocent bystanders.

Standing up to infidelity as a beast that must be slayed for the good of the family.

I do feel a little better having talked with Steve. I'm just not sure when to approach my WW about talking to him. I don't want to wait, We have to drive to the oil company's office tomorrow, perhaps I can ask her on the way over, or better yet on the way back.

Tomorrow is the big day. We are selling the store. I don't know what will happen after that. She will be unemployed, and soon to be homeless. We packed up a lot of stuff tonight, and I never said one word about us, or our problems. I think she appreciated it.

I'm not sure why my friend said that it would do this guy some good to sponsor me. Of course my friend is a real joker, and you never can be sure if he is serious or not. Perhaps it has been a while, for this guy, or perhaps he just feels that it is time for this guy to do it. Don't know if I want to be the test case, but everybody has to start somewhere. I have seen this man at the sunday meetings. He is involved with the group, and other than that I don't know him. I will talk to him this weekend, see how I feel about him. Next week I can hit some more meetings, if I can find them. There are a couple I would like to try, but they are the opposite direction from work, and I will be pressed for time if I attend them. I am certain there are some closer to here.

Oh, how do I go about placing emphasis on what has worked in the marriage? Is it just bringing up things in conversation? Or lecture as my WW would call it. Of course I don't know if There is a whole lot I can bring up that HAS worked in the marriage. I'll have to think about this.

Well, I am no longer a store owner. We closed the sale of our business today, and I am glad it is over. Kindof a sad day really, reflecting on everything that has happened these last nine years. I bought that store trying to save my marriage. It did everything but save our marriage. Now I pray that by selling it I will save my marriage. But then again, if it hadn't been for the store, we might not have made it this far. Guess I'm coming to understand that it's not the destination, but the journey that matters.

Now get this. We go to the oil company to sign papers. The man that owns the company comes into the room and says he doesn't think he knows WW and me. I said "I don't know why you would know us, we've only been selling gas for you for the last nine years!" WW was upset. On the way out the door she said "bite me bas*ards!" I will not miss these people at all.

Since I took the day off, I decided to take in a meeting tonight. Stopped by my WW's for a while before I went. No LB's at all. We talked about the store, and the people that we'll miss. We talked about our son. About his behaviour, and his development. She was very approachable, and not really guarded. This was a nice visit, and I left feeling good. Think I will just call tomorrow to discuss business issues. Try to communicate with her as much as I can. I will try to slip in my question about talking to Steve somewhere. I have also thought about inviting her to an AA meeting. Since she showed interest in Al-Anon, I got some information, but I think she is afraid to call someone. There always seems to be a couple of Al-Anon people at the sunday meeting, so maybe if I get her there, she might make a contact. I don't want to be pushy though.

Agree you don't want to be pushy, so please don't suggest the Alanon or AA meeting yet. You are bringing her along nicely as it is right now by applying no pressure. Just keep doing that, Gale. You are doing the right thing, but she needs to see consistency. BE CONSISTENT. She needs to see that in order to believe your changes.

What has worked in your marriage in the past? Have you thought of anything yet? Were there some things you did that you know she loved?

look and behave like a stable secure reasonably happy man ... if the subject of marriage/affair comes up

say "It is very painful to think about losing something so precious as you and our marriage. Very painful"

and then .... do something kind for her ... like bring her a cookie or a cup of tea or something

Gale, one other thing you should know. AA will be a TREMENDOUS help in your marriage in this way: they will teach you how to live in a way that is not out of control; in a SANE frame of mind. The more sane you feel about the control of your life, the less anxiety you will feel about controlling HER. You will be able to pull back and allow her to be her own person. That will help her learn to relax around you.

Thank You, Thank You, Thank You. I do see how AA is helping me. Last nights meeting was more helpful than I realized at the time. I can't tell you exactly how, but just the peace of mind that spending that time brought to me, has made today a little better.

Whenever I try to call my WW, and she doesn't answer, my mind will instantly want to start thinking all kinds of bologna. I have been seeing this, and am able to counter these effects sooner, before my mind takes me to dangerous places. I know that if I dwell on bad things, I risk taking a drink, and I fear that with a passion. I am learning to let God handle this with me, and ask for his help as soon as I become aware of it. As I continue, I might just learn to ask for his help before I dial the phone. (duh!)

I haven't heard from her today, and she didn't answer when I called. I left a message, and will let her reach out to me if she wants to. As I try to think about what worked in the past, I keep coming back to talking. We used to talk for hours about anything and everything. This, I'm sure, is how the OM found his way into her heart. She talked to him nonstop for a month. I am not sure what level of communication they have right now, but I figure if I can talk to her about things that don't really matter, I can reach her lovebank, and make some deposits. I do have to be very careful with the lovebusters, and I cannot let myself bring up the affair. Again, this seems counter intuitive because I want to whack the beast once in a while, and it seems that I have had much success with the "smoothing over" part of our conflicts. Probably because we where talking.

If she has to move out by next weekend, I will be helping her. This will give me an opportunity to show her how god is working in my life. I have always been easily frustrated when things weren't working the way I wanted.(Um, I wonder why?) I have found that I handle frustrating things much better these days, and if I can just let things happen, and approach problems with sanity, and confidence, it just might make an impression.

I always liked to get up and get her a coke. She would always say that it made her feel guilty. I would tell her that I am closer to the kitchen, and I like doing things for her. I was always doing those little things, but it seems that she placed a lot more importance on the things I didn't do. She always wanted little gifts, and cards. I was never very good at getting these things, and now she says she doesn't need them anymore. I think she is lying to both of us. If I try to give her these little things, It could be helpful. What do you think?

I can't believe it. I checked my email just now, and I got a reply from one of my exposure emails. This woman said that she is sleeping with OM also. Said she is caught in the middle, and please help. I don't know what to think. I replied with why did it take a month to respond? Are you serious or just jerking my chain? If you are serious tell me more.

I just wonder if I should tell my WW about the email. Not mention the name, but just let her know what I got. Or should I just keep being nice, and wait to see what comes back from it?

Don't know where my WW is mentally right now. She didn't answer when I phoned this morning. She did respond to a text and said that she was upset today. She didn't explain, so I don't know what she was upset about. Maybe it has something to do with the email! We'll have to watch this play out.

I would show her the email. Tell her it might be a hoax but you felt she needed to know so she could investigate. Tell her this lady has emailed you saying she is also having a sexual relationship with OM. Recommend that she get STD testing and use protection with the OM.

Just act like you are sure sorry and don't say anything more about the OM. Try not to say anything that will cause her to DEFEND the OM. That will be hard to do, but back off as quickly as possible so she is left to come to her OWN conclusions.

And be sure and show her the name!

I forwarded the email. I won't see my WW until monday. She is probably on her way down there right now, I don't know. She didn't go to the councelors appointment yesterday. I don't know if I am happy or not about that. I still haven't been able to engage her in a conversation to ask her to speak to Steve. She is not talking at all, and I cannot pry right now. She has six more days to get out of her house, and I haven't the slightest idea what she is doing. Here comes the mack truck, and I better get out of the way.

Hit another meeting this morning, and will go tonight as well. First things first, and I am taking care of me.

My appetite came back with a vengence this weekend. I actually cooked a meal for the first time in about 2 1/2 months. It wasn't very good, by my standards, but I ate quite a bit. My son actually ate some too. That is an accomplishment in itself. That boy's diet consists mostly of pop-tarts, and McDonals. It is hard to get him to try different things, but I have been having success in getting him to eat a little better.

Haven't heard from either WW or the mystery woman that sent the email. I doubt that I will hear from that woman, but WW will most likely find some reason to blame me for it, and I will probably get to hear it.

It is amazing that my WW can go away for the entire weekend, and not even call to talk to our son. I know that she is not in the best place emotionally, but it still baffles me.

I checked my old cell phone last night, and the MC left a message two weeks ago for an appt. I felt bad, because I was thinking that she didn't want to talk to me. I do want to talk to this woman, and I left her a message with my new number to call. Don't know how it will help, if my WW won't go back, but I will still keep up with my part of saving the M, and I do want to have this MC involved with our recovery when we get there.

Right now, I am racking my brain for a way to engage my WW in conversation. I don't want to reach out, and bug her. I don't want to call her without good reason. She has been very closed off to me lately, and I don't want to press her. At the same time my little demons tell me that I am giving OM free reign to contaminate her brain even more. Now I understand that letting him have at it could work in our favor as well, and I am doing my best not to let the demons convince me to do stupid things like bug her to death. I have done too much of that already, and I am really just not too good at patience.

I made three meetings this weekend, and I am planning on going to a cookout at an AA's house today. This man was recomended as a sponsor, so I want to go, and talk to him if I can. Still have a hard time reaching out to people for help. It's easier on the internet I guess.

I gotta get serious about working on step 4. I have rolled alot of stuff around in my head, but I must start comitting things to paper. I don't want to pressure myself, but I also feel that I need to work the program. It's just so hard, because I am so perfect right?

Start third shift tonight, gonna be tired in the morning.

hehe, you and me both! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> You have lots of time to do step 4, so don't worry about rushing it. Right now you are getting into the habit of going to regular meetings, which is very good.

I understand fully about having no patience. You want everything to be fixed over night and I can relate. But being impatient will undo any advances you have made with her because it will make her feel pressured. Instead, back off and let her come to you. Subtly ATTRACT her back by being as pleasant as possible and avoiding lovebusters at all costs. Every lovebuster will undo weeks of attractive behavior, so don't get impatient and pushy! I KNOW how you alcoholics are! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Very glad to hear you are doing things with AA people and are pursuing a sponsor. I would ask around about how much sobriety he has under his belt before you ask him. You need someone very solid who knows the program and has some long term sobriety.

I talked to her a little bit just now. I took our son home, and she is feeling very hopeless. I tried not to come off pushy, but I got the feeling that she was feeling lectured. I was just trying to tell her that I wanted to be there for her. Her mom is getting worse, and she is going down there in the morning to see her. I asked if she wanted me to come along. Of course she didn't, but I told her that I really would like to be there for her and her mother. She said that it could be another false alarm, but I don't think she believes that.

She started saying things about how I am going to take our son away from her, and her mom will die, and she will have nothing. I told her that I am not trying to take him away, I am trying to hold our family together. I am trying to protect him from the affair. She just rolls her eyes at that. She asked why she feels so hopeless right now, and I said I don't know. I didn't want to say what was on my mind, which is that the people that she chooses to consult with, are filling her head full of sh*t.

She is angry at me, because I owe her a debt of gratitude for shielding our son from my drunkeness. Now he seems to want to spend time with me and not her. Again I didn't want to say anything about her attitude, or her depression. I said that I am trying to show her my gratitude, and that I want to make up for all the things that I have done in the past. I wasn't getting anywhere, and she was becoming visibly agitated. I ended up leaving, saying I needed to get ready to go to work.

She has liked me not talking to her at all. I do not bring up things that would upset her, she does. I answer her statements, and she doesn't like what I say. I do hope that is not lovebusting.

I did ask her to talk to Steve Harley, but she didn't say she would. I will ask her again tomorrow. She said why would he want to talk to me? I am the one who had the affair? I said he would like her side of the story.

Not sure what to think right now. I would have rather we were able to just talk about nothing.

"Steve Harley is trying to treat me and he wants to get your perspective on my problems." How about that?


Did you agree with her on this? I would agree and tell her how very sorry you are that she felt she had to do this. Admit your mistakes honestly. That is honest and she has probably gone through hale for you.

Do you think she is trying to bait you into a fight, Gale? This is a pretty common tactic with a WS that you want to avoid. If she can bait you into a fight you give her ammunition to demonize you. And if you are demonized, then she can justify her affair.

Did she get the email yet about the OM's other woman?

Yes, I did agree with her. I told her that I owe her a lifetime of gratitude, that I want to show my appreciation and make it up to her.

I do want to make it up to both of them. Right now, my son is willing to let me. He harbors no resentment, and freely accepts my love and affection. She on the other hand is not only not willing to let me, but her attitude seems to be pushing our son away. He knows what he wants. He knows that I want the same thing. He knows that she doesn't want that. He is angry with her, and I have no control over that. I just cannot seem to tell her that without a confrontation. She sees it as me turning our son against her.

I don't know if she is trying to pick a fight or not. I was wondering if she isn't trying to get me to say that elusive "one" thing that will melt her heart, and make her want to try. I have been wondering if I didn't screw up again last night. I didn't want to upset her, and once she became aggitated, I didn't run for the door, but I didn't stay long either. It is such a guessing game for me, but If it was some sort of test, I may have failed.

She has a very low opinion of my masculinity. I haven't been much of a man these last how many years. Scared little boy is more like it. I am doing my best to counter this opinion of me, but some things even a man doesn't know. I am not a mind reader.

Then again she could just be trying to pick a fight.

She has not mentioned the email that I forwarded to her. Either she didn't read it yet, or is not going to talk to me about it. I don't even know the status of her affair relationship right now. She ain't talking.

She seems more upset right now about her mother, and having to find a place to live and work. If her mother dies this week, I don't know if the landlord will give her a little more time or not. She hasn't even started packing. She went to see her mother today instead of looking for a job. It's good that she went to see her, but she should have been looking for the job for the last few weeks.

I assume she spent the whole weekend with OM. Less than an hour away from her mom, but she couldn't go see her then. I am not able to tell her anything without "lecturing". So she will have to just deal with her decisions.

I got a reply from the OM's OW?! She says that she has been seeing him for about a year. Says she loves him and didn't know that he was seeing anyone else. I don't know what to do. I told her she could ask OM about it, but he will probably not be honest. Told her if she wants to talk to WW I can give her contact info, but she will have to call me for it.

I don't know for sure what to do about this. If this woman goes to the trouble to figure out how to contact me, then I may be convinced that she is serious. I don't know if I will give her my WW's number though. I am not wanting to put my WW in any danger if I can help it. I guess I am just thinking that the two of them communicating could be alot better than with OM in the middle. Maybe I will just give her WW's email address. That way she can reach out without being able to find her.

I was just thinking that if this person would call me, the caller ID could convince me that it is for real.

Things are really getting crazy. She has to be out by friday, and she hasn't started packing. She is throwing anger at me a mile a minute, because I won't give her support money. She says I want to take our son away from her. She called her lawyer to see about moving back in here, and making me move out. My lawyer cannot be reached until tomorrow. I made an offer to let her move back in, and to move a camper into the driveway for myself. I don't know if it is wise, but I did. I am trying to think about my son right now. I need to try to protect him, and his mother is getting really desperate. The OM is offering to let her live in his house for free, but I won't let her, because of our son. Your da*n right I won't let her take my son.

She just called and said I won. She has nowhere to go. She will move back in, and she will die. Before she was off the phone, she changed her mind. She was going to let me take our son, and then she changed her mind. I just almost called her back, but I put the phone down. I have to let her come to me. She is so desperate. I am so scared for her right now, and I am even more frightened for my son. I am worried sick right now.

nonononono, do not offer to move out into the camper!! You must stay there in your own bed!! Withdraw that offer NOW! It is GOOD that she is feeling desperate becasue of her choices. That is what you want. Don't make it easy for her to use you as a doormat.

Tell her you sympathize with her and offer to help her move in. But make it clear that she cannot carry on her affair from your home.

You also need to tell her that the OM has a girlfriend. NOW! That will eliminate the OM as a choice.

I don't want to move into a camper, it just sorta came out while I was talking to her. I already started reniging on that. I told her that I don't think I can let her move back in if she is going to see OM, so she won't move in. She is just jumping all over the board. I believe that she may let me take our son, and then move in with OM. At least I will be protecting my son from this affair.

I did say something about the girlfriend, but she just shrugged it off. Either she thinks I am lying, or OM came up with something to convince her. She is wrapped around his little finger.

going to be an interesting day, better get some sleep.

My FIL said he will cosign for her. I really would like to give him a piece of my mind. He is two hours away, and I don't know how he will get the papers to sign. She is mad that I will not sign the papers. I called the lawyer just to have him tell me not to. I will do what my lawyer says this time. He said that if she takes our son down there, to call and he will get an order for her to bring him back.

She thinks this is all just a ploy to get our son. She ignores everything that I tell her, and just warps reality. I told her that I don't know if it is a good thing for her to move back right now. I will let her, but I know that she will not give up OM. She says that if she moves back, I will "own" her. How can I convince her that she is not "owned" but still put my foot down about the OM?

I am praying for guidance, and I hope that I can see what it is that I need to do. The lawyer said to give her some money if that will help her out, but don't sign the lease. I don't have any money to give her. Got the store money, but I haven't finished paying taxes, and I don't know what we can spend and what we can't.

With all this going on, I am not sleeping well. Getting three hours a day, and I am falling asleep on the job. I don't want to get that tired. She won't talk to Harley, and I can't afford to pay him if she would.

Funny how she is all upset about how she is losing everything trying to get free of me. That is how she put it. I have told her that WE are losing everything, not just her. She says that the only way she can get rid of me is to die. Says I am always up her a*s. I told her I am not up her a*s, and she doesn't have to die to get rid of me. She wants me out of her life, but she wants my money. I don't believe it. She wants her affair.

Our councelor does seem to have a good grasp on what is going on with the affair. She does understand the mental condition much more than I gave her credit for. She advised me to just let my WW go and hit that brick wall. I just have a hard time doing it.

We discussed my obsession with saving the marriage. What is the fear that drives my obsession. I believe it is losing my WW as a friend. Not losing her, but losing that friendship. It will not be there if this marriage ends because of infidelity.

What "obsession" are you talking about, Gale? No one likes to lose their life partner, that does not mean it is an "obsession." You should do everything in your power to try and save your marriage. That is a NORMAL, HEALTHY, RATIONAL, RESPONSIBLE reaction. You should try to save your marriage, especially for your boy.

Your wife was already lost, Gale. When she moved out and got a boyfriend is when she became lost, so your actions now are not doing that. Nothing you can do now can cause her to be lost because she already IS lost. In the meantime, you should do what you can to attract her back as best you can.

All of her upset right now is due to the fact that she is having to face consequences of her affair. She has made some bad decisions and is having to face the consequences. So don't act like this is your fault, it is not.

Watch out for taking the blame for all her unhappiness, Gale, because that is what i hear you doing. That is pretty typical of an alcoholic. They are so used to being the cause of everyone''s unhappiness that they take the blame whether it is appropropriate or not. Rest assured, your W's current unhappiness comes from the actions of the lady in the mirror and no one else.


Don't even try to finance her affair and her seperation. Don't give her any money at all! If she wants to be seperated, then she is a big girl and will have to finance that just like other big boys and girls. She will have to get a job. With freedom comes responsibility!

The pressure seems to have proven too much for my WW to handle. Yesterday morning she called me and begged me to sign her lease. She tried everything to talk me into it. She even threatened suicide. She started coughing and choking on the phone, and then hung up. I go flying into her place to make sure she is all right, and she is sitting there on the phone with OM. She asked me to leave. I asked her if there was anything else that HE wanted her to tell me. I stepped outside, and she locked the door behind me so I just went back home.

I tried to get some sleep, and then the cops called me. It seems that my WW took a bunch of pills, and then got in her car, and started driving to OM's. She turned off on a back road, and got lost. She wanted to die. So the OM called the police, because she was driving around lost and possibly overdosed. OM was driving all over the country looking for her. She wouldn't talk to anyone except OM. He called me and asked me to call her. I wasn't too happy with him, and I told him "I hope your happy now buddy", I wish I hadn't said that. She answered but didn't want me to help her. She just wanted me to feel bad. Then she wanted OM because she wanted to be talking to him when she died.

I called the school to make sure that she hadn’t taken our son with her. I also called our MC, and I am glad that I did. This woman helped me a lot yesterday. She truly does understand what is going on with WW, and she helped me deal with things properly.

I was supposed to help WW move out of her house yesterday. She didn’t have any place to move to since I wouldn’t sign the lease. I planned on just taking her stuff back to our house till she found something. She just couldn’t think of any other options besides either sleeping at our house, or going to OM’s. She was certain that if she came back home, even for one night, she would die. She was also convinced that if she left her son to go to OM’s she would die as well. So she decided to take her own life. I don’t know why she didn’t decide to sleep in a hotel for a few days. Why couldn’t she have stayed at a friend’s house? Even if she went to OM’s house, she could come back next week, and find work and shelter. Why did it have to be so final? I think she was mad at me because I wouldn’t give in, and she wanted to punish me.

After about four hours the OM found her about two counties away from here. The sheriff called EMS, and they took her to hospital. I was hoping that they would keep her for a few days, but they let her right out last night. When she called me from the hospital, she just told me that I had to call and give them the insurance information. I asked her what she wanted to do about moving her stuff out of the house, and she said just get it out of there. That was about it. OM was there being her hero, and taking good care of her, so I stayed away. I went to a meeting last night, even though I could barely keep my eyes open. I had about 40 minutes sleep in 36 hours, and man was I tired.

She called me this morning, and asked what was going on, and I told her that we were moving her stuff out of her house. She didn’t like that idea, as she needed to get some of her stuff. I told her that it would be at our house, and if she wanted anything to come get it. I made sure that she knows that OM is not allowed on our property, and she should come alone. She asked me what I want her to do. I told her that it doesn’t matter what I want, or what OM wants, or what anybody else wants. I said it is time for her to decide what it is that she “needs” to do, and do it. She asked if she could get her stuff when I am not home, and I said no. I will lock it up, and I have to be here. OM is not allowed on this property. I asked, “Do you want me coming to his house? Does HE want me coming to his house?” I haven’t heard from her since.

I keep coming back to something my mom told my WW. “When he finally gets his belly full, watch out.” Surprisingly, I am not mad at WW. I feel sorry for her, and if she would ask to come back and work on the marriage, I am still willing to do so. I am still in plan A, and I am totally aware of the mental strain she is under. Of course, my family might get really upset with me if I would do that. Fortunately for her I am in a really forgiving frame of mind.

Believe it or not, through all of this I haven’t really been tempted to take a drink. My brother drank a couple of beers that we found in her refrigerator, and it was the first time I smelled the stuff since I quit. Must admit it smelled pretty good. I started wondering if I had some pop or something. But I didn’t even think about drinking a beer. Good for me.

My son is safe, with me. I have a funny feeling that this whole incident will not help her get custody at all. I am so glad that I have you, and the other people in my life that have helped me keep my feet on the ground, and handle this situation like an adult.

I told my brother-in-law today that I am dealing with two kids these days. I have an eight year old, and a sixteen year old.

God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change. The courage to change the things I can. The wisdom to know the difference.

Wow, what a mess, Gale! What do you think she will do now? I wonder why the OM couldn't sign the lease? Was there some reason he couldn't sign? And has she pulled these high drama stunts in the past to get her way? I am really surprised that she would go to these lengths to get her way? Is this a pattern with her?

What do you think she will do now, Gale?

I told her to have OM sign the lease, but since the reason I needed to sign was the fact that I "have" a job, and OM doesn't "have" a job, I doubt his signature is worth spit.

She has never ever done anything this dramatic before. I can sorta remember one time that she talked about killing herself, but I was drunk and in a tirade at the time, and I can understand why she might have wanted to. That was quite a few years ago.

One thing has changed though. She never had me stand up for myself this way before. I have always given in to her when she wanted something. I have always tried to give her what she wants as long as it was within reason. If I had signed that lease, she would be sitting there, in her new apartment, happy as a clam, talking on the phone with OM. Or more likely, since it is the weekend, and I have our son, "breaking in" the new place with him.

My mom says that she went to great lengths to get what she wanted which was to move to OM's place. I am not sure about that. I think that she would rather have waited longer to go there, otherwise she would have left months ago. Had I not filed for divorce, my son would likely be there right now too. She does not want to lose her son. Her affair fantasy was all built around taking our son to live with OM and have this wonderful OM be a much better daddy than I have ever been. Her fantasy didn't take into account that I may not agree to her bulls**t plan. I think she honestly thought that I wouldn't care. As a practicing alcoholic, I could easily have given her that impression.

What will she do now? Still not sure. Just as I was making my last post, she called me. She doesn't know what to do. She believes that everybody in town knows what she did yesterday, and she is afraid to face them. I told her that she ought to call MC, that she could help her discover what her options are. She doesn't want to call her. She doesn't want to talk to anyone that might give her some common sense advise. This leads me to think that she will end up staying with OM.

I could sense that she seemed to be wanting me to say something that would "tell" her what to do. She tried to make me feel bad about yesterday. She said that when she called I didn't ask her how she was. I told her that I did too ask her how she was. I am seeing that the biggest victim of her lies is her. She has been lying so much that she believes them herself.

I told her that she can still get a job and an apartment. If she does, she knows that I will let our son live with her like we have been. Even if I get custody, I will not take him away from his mother, as long as she keeps OM away. She told our son yesterday that he was moving to my house, and he would only see her every other weekend. This was not a nice thing to say to him. He doesn't even understand what is going on.

Yep, she is probably where she is planning on staying for a while. Let's see how well OM lives up to her ideal of a perfect man when she lives with him full time.

You know, it might not be a bad thing for her to go live with the OM for awhile. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> That relationship is already very shaky and once he has to support her he will be none too happy with her nonsense. Reality will ruin the affair. She will also have to explain to ppl why she doesn't have her son living with her, which will be very hard. Your actions are definitely putting the SQUEEZE on her affair. Way to go, Gale!

I am just relieved that you have your son now. In the meantime, keep doing the great job you have been doing in trying to meet her needs as best you can. I suspect her affair won't last much longer and as long as she comes to see you as an attractive alternative, there is hope.

Have you noticed that she acts just like a drunk in her current state? I am always amazed at how well I can relate to these fogged out WS's just because of my background as an alcoholic. They act irrationally and they speak the language of bullcrap. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

You are handling this all superbly, Gale! Good job! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I agree. This move will probably remove the last shreds of fantasy that she held about the affair. Also, I believe that she will find that it is "her" supporting "him" before long at all. She has already admitted that when they go out, she usually has to pay for tickets and dinner.

My mom believes that this guy is in it for money. We had that store, and we own property. He could be waiting for the divorce, so he can get access to her half of our fortune. For this reason I have been doing my best to make it clear to my WW that there is no money left from the sale of the store, and the equity in the house is almost nill. If we split, she will most likely end up with some money. I don't want to see her squander it away with this person. Or worse, have it stolen from her.

I can only hope that she gets fed up with him before he gets to her money. Right now, he is her hero. He saved her life friday, and there just ain't no way I can compete with that. I don't really care though, because I know that her life wasn't in danger to begin with, and she knows that I know that.

As far as meeting her emotional needs, I think I need to read up on that a little more. I am not even sure what her needs are anymore. I know that conversation was always a very strong need for her, and we always talked alot. I can keep working toward that part rather easily. Other than that, I am kinda up in the air.

I would say that one of her biggest emotional needs is a sober husband. I am working on Gale, and I have to make that my priority. I still have this incredible fear of people. I went to a new meeting the other night, and I was just so afraid to approach these people. I must find a way to force myself to walk up to someone and shake their hand. I think part of my hesitation is the fact that I have a strange name. Everyone that I meet seems to have to ask me twice what it is, and then they still don't get it right. I hate having to explain it. I also am terrible at remembering names myself. I have met some people a half dozen times and I can't tell you what their name is. I really do wonder if I don't have some sort of deficiency or something. This fear hasn't kept me from going to meetings, but it has kept me from opening up, and talking to people. I have just been so isolated for so long, and I really don't trust myself to make conversation. I don't know what to say. They don't want to hear what's going on in my life right now. At least not during polite conversation.

I still haven't found a sponsor, partially because I am not getting to know people. I know that it will come, and until then, keep planting my butt in the seat, and listen. I was told about one man, and I called him the other day. I just haven't had the chance to get to know him. I intend to ask him tonight if he will sponsor me, and help me with step four. Even if it is a temporary thing, I think he will do it. I just don't know him well.

Friday, when I talked to WW on the phone, she sounded drunk. I can so relate to her messed up thinking, and I believe that it has helped me deal with her foolishness. Like I said, my family will probably be angry with me if I take her back now, but I would only be offering her what I am asking of her myself.

You know I wondered if she weren't drinking, because of her erratic behavior. I am starting to see a little pattern here and you tell me if this is correct. She gets mad at you when she doesn't get her way, pitches a huge hizzy fit, sometimes even going to the hospital, and then blames YOU for her reaction. That makes you the bad guy and her the victim! Is that what is going here? Are you always the bad guy, Gale? Because this is not an uncommon game in alcoholic families.

As far as meeting her needs you have this exactly right. The best you can do right now is work on your plan of recovery, be kind and avoid lovebusters. Meet her needs when the opportunity presents itself. If you see an opportunity to meet her need for admiration or domestic companionship and she will let you meet it, then you should do it, as long as it is not annoying.

The more meetings you go to, the less uncomfortable you will feel. Really. Most AA's feel this way. They have the feeling they are on the outside looking in most of their lives. Are you going to the kind of meeting where everyone says something? Closed meetings? Because those are the kind of meetings you should be going to. You will get the absolute most out of those. Speaker meetings are good, but certainly not essential to recovery.

Good luck on finding a sponsor tonight!

Do you think your wife has a drinking problem or is she just drinking heavily right now to drown out her conscience?

I don't think my WW was actually drunk friday. She swears she took about a dozen muscle relaxers, and some other pills. They may have made her drowsy, and cause her speech to slur. Since she moved out, she has started drinking a little. I don't know how much, but before, she never drank at home, and rarely went out to drink. Now she has a bottle of margaritas in her fridge all the time. I have been around her house enough to know that she is not constantly replacing those bottles.

The pattern you describe is probably true for the most part, at least recently. Since the affair came to light, whenever I talk to her about things that she doesn't want to hear, she starts reacting in a very dramatic, and upset manner. Throughout these last few months, I would give in, or shut up, just to calm her down. The other day, I wouldn't give in to her desires, and the rest is the result.

Yes, she is getting upset, and blaming me for it. I see this as her trying to get me to do what she wants. It has worked in the past, so she might as well keep trying. Only I am not letting her get away with it now. This has her frustrated.

I went and got the rest of her stuff out of the house today. As we were driving home, she called me and said that she was coming to get some stuff. She acted kindof timid when she arrived. Like she thought I was going to jump down her throat, and start giving her ******. I didn't say anything harsh at all.

She asked if our son was home, and I told her he was in the house. I was unloading her stuff. She went inside, and low and behold, she didn't drop dead on the spot like she said she would last week!!!? I thought about thanking the good lord for the miracle, but I just shut my mouth. She said she has to go see a shrink or something tomorrow, as a condition of being released the other day. She said she is going to keep the appointment, but then she started saying she didn't know how much it would cost. I told her the insurance will probably cover it, meaning I wasn't about to give her any money. She was complaining about being broke, and it cost her 80 dollars to get her car out of impound. I thought, gee, sorry to hear that.

She went on about how OM found her, like he is just the most wonderful hero a girl could have. She said "I know, you hate him." I said that I don't think I hate him. I don't know what it is that I feel toward him, but I don't think it's hate. She tried again to get me to let her come get her things when I am not home, and I refused to let her. I told her if she really didn't want me here, I will find someone else to be here in my place, but she just dropped it.

She told our son that she is staying with OM. Our son only knows OM as a friend of hers, he doesn't see anything wrong with it. He doesn't know what OM really is, and I don't want him to know. I was angry that she told him. I didn't say anything to our son about it though.

She was here for about an hour. She got some stuff, and she left. I asked her for a hug before she left. She said she didn't know why I wanted one, and I said because I love you, and I don't want to see you hurting anymore. I will have to wait and see what she does. She still acted like she might look for an apartment here in town. I'm not sure if she will or not.

I was cooking a pork shoulder on the smoker when she arrived. Just going about my business, living life, and not letting her stop me. It's been cooking for about seven hours, and I hope it's done before I have to leave for my meeting tonight. I sure smells good. I always put a can of apple juice in with the coals to boil and steam the meat. This makes very good pork.

Well, the honeymoon is over. My son is mad as he*l at me right now. I am making him eat his supper, and he don't want it. He usually turns his nose up at almost anything, and we have always given in and let him eat junk. I am not backing down to him, and he is telling me that he hates me, and he will never love me again. I almost started laughing. He sounds so much like his mother right now. Oh well, spare the rod... My experience with WW last thursday and friday has really helped me to deal with him right now. I am giving him what he needs.

My mother is really starting to wonder about me. How can I still be in planA? Why don't I just write WW off? I told her that I will know when it is time, and I am starting to think that the time is approaching. I have to give the plan time to work, and I know that giving up now is not what my WW needs.

WW called this afternoon. She wanted to talk to our son. After they talked, She and I spoke a little. She didn't really want to talk to me. She asked if I had cancelled the business credit card. I told her that I tried but since she is named as the principal cardholder they won't let me close the account. I told her that my lawyer said that anything she charges on that card now will be her responsibility to pay. This of course made her angry. She wanted to know what else my lawyer told me. I said I hadn't really talked to him lately. She wants me to give her some of the store money, and I told her that we still have bills coming in, and we haven't payed taxes yet. I told her that I haven't taken any of that money either, and I too have bills to pay.

Finally she said that when she calls she wants to talk about our son and only our son. I said OK.

She talked to our son again a little. Told him that she was going to get an apartment in town, and they can be together.

My son has just insisted on talking to his mother. I called her, and now he is trying to get her to say he doesn't have to eat as much as I say. I don't care, he will eat what I gave him, or he won't eat tonight.

you meanie! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> How old is the boy? Have you protected your finances so she can't plunder the money?

Our son is eight years old. Believe it or not, it took him four hours to even try his supper. He ate half of it, and per my instructions, grandma gave him the rest of it for breakfast this morning. I talked to him on the phone on the way home from work, and he seemed quite happy.

I moved alot of our money into an account that she doesn't have access to, but then I got to thinking about the rest of it. There is a lot of money I had to leave in our account because there are outstanding checks written against it. I realized that she has a password to do fund transfers over the internet! I am going to the bank today to change that password. Hope I am not too late.

Oh, and I got a sponsor sunday. I talked with him last night on the phone, and I think we will get along well.

WW called me a little while ago. Her mother is dying, and she is at the nursing home. They have the woman on morphine, and WW is very upset. WW started crying because she has no money. She spent the last of her cash for gas to get there, and noone will cash her check down there. I suppose that was an invitation to offer her something, but instead I just let her go on.

She became angry with me, because this is her "choice", and so she has to deal with it. Obviously I used that word in our conversation the other day, and now she is going on and on about how all of this is her "choice". Very bitter, and angry.

She informed me that she will not call me when her mom dies, but I will find out when she shows up to tell our son. She doesn't trust that I would not tell him if she asked.

She makes so many assumptions about how I feel about our problems, and she is dead wrong on every account. I told her that I have nothing but love and concern for her. She says "love and concern, from a man that I don't love, and that I'm scared of." I said "yes, because I understand where it's coming from."

Nothing seems to reach her right now, and I am feeling more and more like it isn't worth it. I am not giving up yet, but I am tired of being so lonely, and I am not going to wait forever. I hope she sees this soon.

I am very frustrated right now. It seems that despite her best efforts, my WW still has an outstanding chance at getting custody of our son. My lawyer told me that if she lives with the OM, she can't get custody, but he said all she has to do is tell the judge that she can't afford a place to live, and the judge can make me pay for it, let her have our boy, and make me pay support too. I am wondering what the heck I am paying this guy for, if all he is going to do is tell me I'm screwed.

All I want to do is protect our son from this affair, and I am starting to wonder if it is possible. I really feel down right now, and I am just wanting to vent.

Gale, does she have a lawyer and way to get a judge to say this? If not, don't just give her that! Are you sure he is right?

Where is she living now?

My lawyer told me that her lawyer will most likely councel her to say that in court. We also have to expect her to play up my alcoholism, and verbal abuse. The verbal abuse, is bullsh*t anyway, but she will use it. He wants to try to come to an agreement without going to court. I told him that I need to get custody to protect my son. Perhaps he is just preparing me for the worst, but it doesn't sound too positive.

I don't intend to give her anything if I can help it, but it appears that I will have to give her something.

She has been staying with OM since last friday. She came here to get some of her stuff on sunday, and she came back last night to see our son, and get more stuff. She said that it might take a couple of months for her to get an apartment in our town, because she needs to come up with the money for deposit and rent. She said she is thinking of getting a job down there, to hold her over, and save some money. If you ask me, it sounds like she wants to move down there. I am certain that this has been her goal, and now she wants to take our son with her.

She actually asked me if she can take our son for the weekend. I asked her where, she said to OM's house. I told her no way. If she wants to get custody, she has to live up here, I hope that is enough for her to give it up, but I know that she won't stop trying to involve our son in their affair.

So who knows. I may well end up financing this affair after all. I need serenity right now. I haven't hit too many meetings this week. With my son here every night, I have been a little overwhelmed by everything. I feel bad leaving him early every night to go to meetings, even though I know it is best. I can't let this get in the way of my sobriety. if they start at 8, it isn't so bad, but if they start at 7, I can't hardly see him before I leave. I will work this out, and I know that I don't need to go every night of the week. I am still sober, that is something to be thankful for.

We are scheduled to go to court this thursday. I must say that I am a little nervous. I wrote my lawyer a letter yesterday, and emailed it to him. it went like this.

""
I must admit that I am more that a little discouraged by our conversations about this divorce proceeding. As you know, I filed with the intent to protect my son from my wife’s affair. This is my primary goal, and I really want to have faith in you to help me achieve it. Perhaps I don’t fully understand how bad I have it in this situation, but I can’t help but believe that a lawyer of your caliber can help me pull this off.

If you are certain that she cannot get custody of our son if she is living in (OM's town) with (OM), then we have our work cut out for us. You tell me that all she will have to do is tell the judge that she can’t afford a place to live, and they could make me pay for one. Well, I already am paying for one, and I might as well let her have it. I would propose that she move back into the family home, and I will vacate for the time being. When you consider that our mortgage is $1000 a month, and I am netting about $1600, this is the only affordable solution I can come up with. If you can persuade them to accept this offer, I can stay with my parents for the time being, or I can rent something a lot cheaper than she will if I am buying. I believe that she will try to say that this is unacceptable. I would expect you to press her as to why. If I am going to get stuck paying her money to live, I might as well just pay the bills for the home, and let her live there. Comes out in the wash if you ask me, and I will even mow the grass.

Along with this arrangement, I would expect specific wording that would absolutely forbid (OM) from being near, seeing, or speaking with my son for the duration of these proceedings. I know that I cannot protect my son forever, but I can try to keep him out of this for the time being. Also I will not allow (OM) on or near my property regardless of whether (son) is home or not.

If I had legal custody, I would let him live with her, in our house, while she gets work, and saves the money she needs for her apartment. I can pick him up from school, and take care of him until she gets off work. I will take care of all of his financial needs, and I will spend the weekends with him like I was before. This would allow us both to be in his life as much as possible right now. He needs that. This would also help to separate my wife from her lover, and create a possible window into which I could slide some positive influence. (OM) has told my wife that if she were to come back to me, and work to save our marriage, he would have nothing to do with her ever again. This is how he has pressured her to come to (OM's town). He knows that she is hooked, and fears losing him by giving our family a chance. She has admitted to me that if it weren’t for (OM), she would give us a try. If I can protect our son, I can possibly just wait out the affair for my specified length of time.

What I want is legal custody. I want the right to decide what is best for our son. As far as my sobriety is concerned, you could classify me as a functioning alcoholic. I never missed work, I rarely got in trouble, and I would swear that I never drove with my son in the car when I was over the legal limit. I know that I haven’t been sober for long, but when you consider my wife’s chronic infidelity problem, and consider that she is not in recovery, this still puts me ahead of the game. She has exposed my son to immoral activity, even going so far as making love to (OM) in her house as my son slept upstairs. She didn’t seem to see anything wrong with this, even after my son came downstairs to use the bathroom, and was frightened half to death by a stranger lying on the living room floor. If she has her way, she will expose him to more immoral behavior in her attempt to let this man seduce my son into thinking he is a nice guy. Her attempt at suicide last week should help convince the powers that be that she may not have our son’s best interest in mind. She is in such a selfish place right now; she is not considering what is best for him.

I know this is a tall order. Whatever she says, we cannot back down. She knows what she is doing is wrong, but she is addicted to her affair, and is willing to do anything to make her fantasy a reality. We must convince her that it cannot happen. She wants to stay in (OM's town). I am certain of this by the things she tells me. Let her stay if she wants, but she cannot take our son. He needs to stay in this school. He needs to be close to the only family he knows. He needs to be protected from this affair.

The police will not give me anything about the attempted suicide without an order from the county prosecutor. Perhaps you could get that from him. Use whatever you have to. We can make it clear that I do not want a divorce, and still be hard on her. I understand that I cannot have everything that I desire. If I did, she would be with me right now on the path to healing and recovery.

Right now, I would live in a cardboard box if it meant protecting my son from this affair. If that makes my position clear enough, then tell me what I can do to help this.

""

I hope my lawyer understands what it is that I am trying to do. At this point, I am not trying to save my marriage. I am just trying to protect our son from his mothers addiction. She is very angry with me, and I don't really care. I haven't moved into planB yet. If she comes back here, I intend to continue planA for a few months. She called today to talk to our son. She didn't want to talk to me at all, and I didn't try. I don't even know what to say to her right now.

I missed too many meetings last week, and I paid for it with my spiritual well being. I didn't realize it until I made a couple of meetings and started feeling better. I am learning so much, and I am more and more grateful to God with each passing day. I am praying simply for his will in my life, and the strength to carry it out.

Gale, I will say lots of prayers for you and your attorney and hope he does a good representing you in court. I would take along a log of all the AA meetings you have attended and be sure and show the judge. Tell him how long it has been since you have had a drink.

I am concerned that your W has been drinking heavily. She has, hasn't she? Have you documented her hysterical emotional tirades that end up in trips to the hospital when she doesn't get her way?

I find it sort of surprising that any judge could give your son to your wife under these circumstances. Lets consider all she has going against her:

1. No home
2. no job
3. shacking up with her boyfriend in an immoral environment
4. no money
5. hysterical emotional tirades when she gets angry that end at the hospital
6 drinking?

you, on the other hand have:

1. job
2. home that the boy is used to
3. income
4. no drinking
5. fairly stable emotional environment

I am surprised that your attorney is so nervous about this.

I'm with Mel. You tell your attorney what you expect. If he/she can't deliver then check around for one that thinks he can. Also remember to not stand around and wait on your attorney. This is YOUR case not his. He has many others. You feed him information, supporting documentation, and more in order to help him do his job effectively. Find out about OM and his past. Who says that she will not simply lie in court about OM and then marry the ****** when and if she wins custody. Force her to spell out in detail the relationship witht he OM. Is she in love with him? When was the last time they has sex, spent the night together, went away for a vacation, had son in the OM's presence. When and how many times has she made the OM a priority over spending time with your son. How often and for how long is she on the phone with him while your son is with her? What is OM's relationship with his own children (poor, non existent then why would this loser make a good step father or friend to your son?) GO for full custody and then back up from there. Go for a restraining order against OM during proceedings (no one of the opposite sex involved, at least overnight, with son on either side..)

Find people that can attest to your fathering skills, parenting skills, time you spend with children, emotional bond, etc. Tout your employment, can you flex your schedule if need be, could you work from home if the child was sick? What is your support network look like vs. WW (grandparents, friends, siblings, to help with child). PLay to WW's immorality and bad judgement, partying, decision to place OM above you and family and friends and eveything else. Take the bull by the horns. This is YOUR case not your lawyers although he can help you. Trust me I just did this and got full custody of our 18 mo. old son

Get your attorney's butt in gear.

Spoke with my lawyer this morning. He tried to assure me that the negative talk we had the other day was mainly his attempt at preparing me for the worst. He says that if we go to court, there are a lot of rules that could work against us. There would still be a chance that I could get custody, but I could end up giving her more money than my lawyer wants to pay.

I don't know how in depth they go with this. This is only temporary custody for the duration of the divorce proceedings. My original goal was to get custody, and then drag out the divorce until the Affair ended. While this is still the goal, I have already been thinking about the amount of time I want to give her to come back. I don't have anyone encouraging me to stay in this marriage anymore. Our marriage councelor isn't even encouraging it. This problem has dragged on for years with us.

My WW is not even talking to me right now. She called yesterday to talk to our son. I answered the phone, she asked to talk to him, they talked awhile, she hung up. I guess I don't even know which plan I am in anymore. If she comes back to town, I want to continue planA, but if she stays down there, I guess it's planB time. I really don't know what to say to her anyway, and of course, she is still blaming me for everything. Somehow, in her mind, I am the reason that she is living with OM.

I am supposed to call my lawyer in about an hour. He hasn't had any luck contacting her lawyer. Hopefully he will have some information for me then.

What problem EXACTLY has dragged on for years?

infidelity. Her first affair was in 1997. I believe that she never really got over the affair state of mind. She has blamed me all of this time for one thing or another, and I have lived up to alot of her ideas. But I haven't deserved the heartache that I have suffered.

Now get this. The proposed agreement lets me keep the house for the time being. I get to pay all of our debts off. This means that I get to pay her credit card bills. I get the truck she gets the suv. We share joint legal custody of our son with me having temporary primary residence status. I continue to pay health insurance for WW. I pay ALL expenses for our son. I get no child support. And to top it all off, I get to pay her $75 a week?! Who the hel! is the bad guy here?

Response:

Thank you for your offer but no thanks. This is so far removed from reality that we will not even address it. See our counter offer below:

Gale44, joint legal and primary custody of son, debt is split 50/50%, any remaining liquid assets split 50/50% after debt payoff, truck to Gale, suv to WW, Gale retains marital home after affording WW 1/2 of equity, split furnishings, kitchen wares, appliances, 50/50%, Gale keeps insurance on son and WW pays 50% of bills over the insurance allowed amount w/ 30 days notice and copies of invoices, WW gets her own insurance within 90 days of D, WW pays 14% of gross pay towards child support for son, WW gets visitation of every other weekend, one night during the week, 4 weeks during summer (2 uniterrrupted), sharing of hoidays switching in odd and even years, WW gets all mother's days and Gale gets all father's days, Spring break and Xmas breaks split 50/50%,

This would be my counteroffer

I wrote my lawyer a letter this morning. I haven't heard back from him yet.

""
Upon further review of the provisional agreement that you sent me, I have to say that there is no way that I would sign my name to this.

First off, the second item about me paying off marital obligations. This would be her credit card bills, and other unpaid bills of hers. I would accept this item if it is changed to read that I would us joint marital assets to pay off these debts.

Now the big problem. All I see is how I get to pay for everything, and she gets to do nothing and have me pay her money. Yet she insists on sharing joint custody of our son. If I have to pay her money, it had better buy me something. I want sole exclusive custody of our son. This IS the reason that I filed for divorce. This IS the reason that I hired you. I do not see how I can protect him, if we are sharing legal custody. I was under the impression from talking with you that there really was no such thing as shared legal custody anyway. If I have all of the financial obligation, then I want all of the legal obligation as well. I will not accept anything less.

As for giving her $75 a week. In her original response to the divorce, she asked for $600 a month spousal support. I will give her $600 and she can give me back $500 which would be her share of the mortgage payment. The rest she can have as $25 weekly payments. She is asking me to take food from my son's mouth just to give her comfort money. Money that she doesn't really need because she is living with (OM), and he can most certainly provide her with all of the comforts that she needs. If she were to move back to (our town), and rent a place to live, I could be more inclined to want to help her. But as it is right now, she doesn't need it, and is only asking to make things difficult. This woman is showing total disregard for her son's welfare, and doesn't deserve to receive a single penny.

Keep in mind that she abandoned our son. She took him to school and failed to return for him. I have stepped up and become his sole provider. She has chosen her lover over her own flesh and blood child, and does not deserve to see him let alone have custody of him. I may bend on the other points, but I cannot bend on this.
""

If I understand it correctly, the spousal support would only last until the divorce is final. I just cannot affort to give her $75 a week. I don't make much money as it is, and our mortgage is outrageous because that da*n store took us bacwards for years.

I just need to hold firm about the custody. My main goal right now is to keep our son out of her affair. My lawyer seemed to think that the agreement was pretty good. He acted as if I was getting what I wanted. I don't see it that way, and I know it may agrivate him a little, but I will do my best to get what I think my son needs.

I messed up a little bit the other day, and kinda went off on the WW. Our lawyers conferenced with the judge on thursday, and I recieved a new proposed agreement that afternoon. I went through the roof because not only had very little been changed, but it appeared that they had me paying even more. I made an assumption, which always gets you in trouble, thinking that my lawyer had told the judge that I agreed to this, and I was livid. Unfortunately it was at this moment that my WW decided to call me for the first time in two weeks. I started saying mean things to her, and how I hope she was enjoying her vacation at OM's house. I could tell that I was getting really upset, so I hung up on her. Later, I texted her, and apologized. I doubt that it did any good though. I am angry with myself for losing my temper, and my cool like that. I have done so good since sobering up, and turning my life and my will over to god. Obviously I haven't turned it over completely. I know that it is a process, and I am still working. I just fear that I have undone a lot with this outburst.

I do want to save this marriage if it is possible. I just don't know where we are right now. We are still stuck on the agreement. Mostly, I am hung up on having to pay her money every week. My attorney and I discussed the whole agreement one line at a time yesterday, and we determined where I am willing to bend and where I am not. He made me feel better about joint custody right now. Telling me it would mainly mean that she and I agree on where our son gets medical treatment, religious guidance, and schooling. I told him I can accept it for now. I will have primary physical custody, and there is a provision included that forbids her from allowing the OM around our son.

She still insists that she wants to come back to town so she can have our son. It's been two weeks, and she hasn't been looking for work, or leased that apartment. My mom thinks that she is where she wants to be. I am inclined to agree with her. I think that somehow she is rationalizing that I have taken our son from her, and she is the victim of my evil plan to destroy her.

When she called, it was to tell me that apparently a former OM is going around town talking. He seems to think that he might be the biological father of our son. I know for a fact that this is not possible. I know that she was involved with someone else when she became pregnant, but this doesn't stop the rumors. I don't know what she was trying to do by telling me this. I think in some sick way, she thought it might convince me that it would be best to move our son out of our town. I've got news for her. If my son goes, so do I. And he ain't going where she is at. I feel so bad for my WW right now. She is really sick. She really needs help, and she refuses to get any. I also have to fight the urge to go shut this guy up. I must admit that the only thoughts I have had for this man for years have been murder plots. If I would have ever thought that I could get away with it, I would have most likely tried. I know now that if I were to kill this man it would most likely threaten my sobriety, and I don't want to do that. I don't even want to talk to him. I will let people talk about whatever they want right now. I cannot stop them, and they don't matter to me. If I feel that it is best to move our son away in the future, then I will.

Other than that one phone call, my WW is not talking to me at all. She calls maybe once a day to talk to our son. She asks to speak to him and that is all she says to me. I am not pressing the issue. I am not calling her at all. I am not reaching out to her. I am letting her have her affair, and waiting to see what happens. I still don't know which plan I am in.

I have been seriously thinking that I am not going to get anywhere with my marriage until I make more progress with me. I have been stuck on step 4 now for a month. I got a sponsor, but I am not talking to him. I am letting too much stuff get in the way. My sponsor gave me some ideas on how to tackle step four, and I found something on the internet that may help me. I even feel my higher power leaning on me to get this done. The man giving the lead at a meeting friday night mentioned step four. He said "do it!" and he look straight at me when he said it. I know that this was my higher power talking to me.

Hi Gale, I am glad that you checked in. Don't worry too much about lovebusting your WW. None of us can be perfect all the time. My main concern from reading this is that it appears that your W has had NUMEROUS affairs over the years? I take it she is a serial cheater? Have y'all ever had any counseling for this? Have you ever addressed WHY she has affairs? Do you know why? Does she use your alcoholism as an excuse to have affairs?

Agree that you should just let the XOM blabber all he wants about your W. You have no control over what he does. You are that boys father, and thats all that counts. It might be fun to fantasize about killing the scumbag, but add some reality to the mix, such as a life in prison. Not good!

Am glad to hear you are getting to meetings and have found a sponsor. The most important thing right now is getting to as many meetings as you can. Step 4 can wait, but your peace of mind desperately needs the constant sanity injection of lots of meetings. Don't you notice a huge difference in your mood when you go to a meeting? I have become like a Pavlonian dog in that when I just walk into the room to my meeting, I feel myself calming down and returning to sanity. You will get to this point too.

So, hang in there. You are doing fantastic. If you doubt that, go back and re-read some of your first posts here. You are doing GREAT. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

A man has been going around town telling everybody that he is the biological father to your son and you feel quite confident this could not be true since your wife was involved with another man at this time? What is wrong with this picture?

I was hoping you would catch the joke about murder threatening my sobriety. Obviously I haven't given into the temptation to take that man's life. I often like to think that the only reason he is alive right now is because I will not go to prison for a piece of s**t. Thank God I never got drunk enough to do something that stupid.

As for her multiple affairs. She admitted to two men back in 97. The first happened in the summer-fall, and then the other happened around christmas. This is what she told me, and I believed her. She was certain who she thought the father was, and this is my reason for knowing that it is not the jerk that is shooting his mouth off.

What's wrong with this picture? You tell me. I obviously have a wife with a serious problem, and I want more than anything to help her. Considering my own disorder, I feel that I owe her the understanding and love that I promised her on our wedding day. This is definitely in the "for worse" category. She acted out sexually as a teenager, and I always figured that it was because her father was unable to meet her needs. I obviously dropped the ball somewhere along the line, and she lost respect for me. Easy enough to understand with the drinking. After d-day 98, I simply went to a very bad place, and I was not even capable of meeting her needs. Why we stayed together is beyond me. I loved her, and I was concerned for our son. I think that she liked me taking care of things that she didn't want to. I don't know for sure. Oh, and yes, she has used my drinking as a big excuse for her actions. She used my reaction to her affairs as the reason she had them. She actually twisted history in her mind, and used my reaction to justify what she did. Oh well.

The longer she is away, the more I think about what life could be like without her. I find more and more positives in that picture all the time. Not that I will deviate from my time limit right now. I would really like to save this family. It will take a lot of effort on her part though. I really don't know if she is up to it. She has exhibited a very weak character, and she doesn't seem to be willing to be honest with herself. Perhaps she will look at things differently when this affair is over.

Of course the affair may not end for a very long time. I am not holding my breath. I know my wife. I know that she has never been too willing to make sacrifices. This OM is obviously a worthless bum. I have had more than one person that I exposed to tell me that he will not hold a job for nothing. He hasn't worked at all since she started seeing him in april. She wants me to believe that he is on unemployment, but his 26 weeks has to be over by now. He doesn't smoke or drink, and I got the impression that he doesn't like her doing so either. She of course is not going to let anyone tell her that she can't smoke. So we'll just have to see how this whole thing works out.

Right now, my son and I are getting along pretty good. He doesn't ask about her very much, and I like that because I don't want to say anything bad about her. I also don't want to lie to him. She hasn't been back to see him since a week ago last thursday. She didn't act like she was coming up here anytime soon either.

I talked with her this morning for a little bit. She doesn't seem to know much about our tentative agreement. She thought that I was offering to give her money, not being asked to give it. So obviously she isn't communicating with her lawyer very well. I will try to use that to our advantage.

This is something I would give alot of thought, Gale. I suspected she was using your drinking to rationalize her affairs. This is fairly common in alcoholic marriages. The spouse of the alcoholic will abuse the alcoholic and he/she takes it for years on end because he feels he deserves it. The thinking is that "since I am so bad, then she is entitled to be bad and I deserve it." That is NOT how it works. She is no more entitled to have affairs than you are to abuse her with your alcoholism.

Nor are you obliged to stay with her if you decide this won't work. I am not trying to sway you one way or the other - only you know what you can handle - but if you stay with her it should be because you think there is a sane future in your marriage, NOT because you feel guilty and believe you are OBLIGED to forgive her, no matter what.

With multiple affairs there is much more to forgive, Gale. And many cannot do it. A serial cheater often cheats because they are addicted to affairs. This is very hard to resolve and can only be resolved with a major committment and a major LIFESTYLE change on the part of the cheater. This is the only possible way your marriage CAN recover, so keep this in mind. Just ending her affair and coming back won't be enough.

Here is a quote from Dr. Harley about repeat affairs:

From Dr Harley's article Coping with Infidelity: Part 4 Overcoming Resentment:


Quote:
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In fact, when a couple goes through a recovery after an affair, and then experience another affair, the resentment is often more intense and more persistent after the second recovery. With multiple affairs and recoveries, resentment is almost impossible to overcome. But then, in those cases I usually feel that the emotional reaction of resentment is not irrational at all. Emotions are telling the person that it's not a good idea to continue the relationship, and I would agree.

I understand what you are saying, and I have been giving it alot of thought. As I said above, I have been imagining the future without her in my life, and I find a lot of positives. At the same time, I love this woman, and I want to give her every chance to want to get better.

As I have begun this journey to recovery, I have come to see her problem is no different than my own. I know that some here would probably disagree with me, but really she and I have the same problem, we just use different poison. My drinking problem is not really so much a drinking problem as a thinking problem. Same goes for her. If there is hope for me to live a sane and happy life, there has to be hope for her too. I do want to help her find her road to recovery, but I can only do so much. It is up to her to get sick and tired of being sick and tired. I have done my best to help her hit bottom, I have done my best not to enable her. This is why I am so upset about giving her any money. I don't want her to suffer, but I must make suffering her only option. It is only through the pain that I saw the way out. I believe that is her pathway as well. Unfortunately some people never learn. I can hope and pray that my efforts will make a difference, and then I must step back, and take care of myself and my son as best I can. In a way, I need to follow the advice in the chapter "to the wives" in the big book. I just wish there was a group of recovering cheaters out there that could help intervene.

I "KNOW" that God can see us through anything if we have faith, and turn our will and our lives over to him. I KNOW that God is working in me, and I feel his presence, and his love in my heart. I KNOW that with his love and guidance, we can rebuild a wonderful marriage if she really wants it to happen. What I don't KNOW is if it will happen. That is all up to her. It is out of my hands, even though I rack my brain trying to think of anything else I can possibly do. I end up simply asking God to look after her, and to soften her heart.

Yes I do feel guilty sometimes. It is too easy for me to want to blame myself for what my wife is doing. When this happens I remind myself that she has made her own choices in life, and I am not responsible. I didn't meet her needs. That is a fact. She didn't really meet my needs either, but I am willing to give her a chance. Since the affairs started so long ago, I never did anything right. She never did anything right either. It is as if the first affair never ended. This is all just one long affair just as I have had one long drunk that lasted twenty years. There have been different players introduced to the scene, but the play is the same.

So basically, I am keeping the door to forgiveness open for the time being, but I am not staking my life on the outcome. And I am really really really lonely. So keeping the door open will become harder as time goes by. I pray that she gets her head out of her a** soon.

So she calls me on my way to work and tells me that OM is going to go see his father this weekend, so can she take our son down there to spend the weekend with her? I can't believe that she actually thinks that I can trust her to tell me the truth. When I said that I don't trust that he won't be there, she said "I wouldn't lie to you"! I don't want to be mean, but her brother was a pathologic lier, and I believe that she puts him to shame these days.

I left a message with my lawyer, but he is in court, and I don't know if he will get back with me. I just don't know what to do, because I get this feeling that if I don't let her take him, she will try to use it against me in court. I cannot deny her access to him, but I don't think it is right for her to take him there.

She mentioned taking him to see her mother, and I told her that I would feel better if they were to stay at her mom's house instead of OM's. She didn't reply to that, and she finally got pi**ed off and ended the call.

I just know in my gut that this man will either be there when they arrive, or he will come home before they leave. She wants so desperately to involve this man in our son's life. She mentioned that he is taking his kids to see his dad. She wants my son to get to know these kids because in her fantasy world, they are all going to make this wonderful brady bunch family that is going to live happily ever after. I am trying to prevent this kind of thing for as long as I can, in the hopes that the affair will die before the divorce is final.

I want to protect my son, and I cannot do that if I let her take him there. Even if I let her take him to her mom's house, I don't trust that she won't end up at OM's. So I am stuck.

Up to this point, I haven't said anything bad about the OM to my son. I haven't wanted to put ideas in his head, or be accused of trying to turn him against his mother. I just feel that even if she swears not to take him to OM's, that I should talk to him, and make sure that he understands that he is not to go there. Tell him that if she does take him there that he needs to tell me. I just am not too sure how to do that without scaring him. I don't know if he understands that mommy's friend is anything but a friend to daddy. I want him to understand that this man is not his friend either, but how do you tell an eight year old these things.

I shouldn't have to tell him these things, and I hoped to simply shield him from the whole thing in the hopes that it would die. For that reason, I don't want to let her take him anywhere. I just fear that it will work against me in the long run.

Gale,

I told my EX WW (I have custody of our now 19 month old son) on a Sunday at 1:30 PM that she could keep him an extra night and part of the next day. This was after her asking not only on her behalf but inserting my step daughter (daughter to me) into the request (low, low, low) as well. I gave in against my own best judgment and against my attorney's best advice and said okay. Keep in mind this is my time that I was "loaning" in essence. I told her that one caveat for this time and other times was that this extra time was for EX WW and step daughter to bond with son and in no way or shape or form was to include the lunatic (my nickname for him). She agreed at 1:30 PM in the afternoon and at 6:00 PM I receive a call from lunatic's STBXW (who has spoken with their daughter moments earlier) and found that my crazy, entitled, EX WW had taken both children to the lunatic's home for swimming. This is a span of less than 5 hours since our discussion.

Needless to say things have changed a lot since that time a few weeks back and any pity I felt for her not seeing our son more ofter has turned instead to disdain. I won't make this mistake again. The mistake of trusting her. She cannot be trusted (what part don't I get about this).

So in closing trust her to do the very opposite of what you want or request and nothing more. This is more likely than not. Is she going to have son around OM? I would bet my next check that she will. Now, what you could do is ask that she not have him around the OM (request her sign something if possible, she probably will decline) and then if you decide to let him go I would possibly enlist someone to track her and get photos of her actions while your son is in her care. Most judges frown on affairs in general, dating while still married, shacking up, emotionally scarring the kids, and lying. You could perhaps get her doing most or all of these and use it in court.

If she really wants to see him she can either come to your house for a visit or go stay at her mothers. Your SON should never be dragged into the affair LAIR or the affair. I would lay down the law on this, Gale. She is trying to test your limits. Sticking to your boundary here sends the message that her living situation is UNFIT for children.

Dr. Harley would tell you to tell him the TRUTH. That his mother is in an ILLICIT, IMMORAL affair with another man. The OM is a bad man who is not appropriate for children. Children can deal with the truth, Gale, they CANNOT deal with lies. Your son has probably already sensed something is very wrong here and if you don't validate his feelings, he will be morally confused and begin to doubt his instincts about right and wrong. He NEEDS moral guidance right now and if you don't take the lead here, he will grow up and who*e around because your silence conveys complicity.

So, go tell the boy the truth. That way he will know not to trust the OM.

That's the way I feel about it too. I just want to be sure that the judge won't see it differently when this gets to court. She texted me asking for the verdict and I told her I won't know till tomorrow morning. She sent back with "That's nice. It's my son too and you have total control of him. I guess his mom has no control. I wish I could be on your high horse. You drank all his life and still I have no say."
I didn't reply, but I sure thought about alot. For one, I thought: yes I drank alright, and she cheated. I have stopped drinking.

I am supposed to call my lawyer at 7:30 tomorrow morning. I will ask him what he thinks I should do, and I will take his advise. If it cannot be construed that I am trying to keep her away from our son, then I will insist that she take him somewhere else. Of course if she would move back to our town like she insists she wants to, there would be no problem.

I am thinking it is time to write a planb letter. Doesn't mean that I will give it to her right now, but I might as well get started on it. I love this woman very much, but I must concentrate on myself and my son. I really don't expect that she is coming back up here.

Gale, keep in the mind that the attorney doesn't give a rats [censored] if your son is exposed to her sleazy affair at all. He is only interested in the path of LEAST RESISTANCE. The WELFARE OF YOUR SON LIES WITH YOU. If your son gets dragged into her sleazy affair, the buck will stop with you, NOT YOUR ATTORNEY. Your attorney does not answer to God for your son's welfare, YOU DO.

You are the FATHER here and it is up to you to decide what is best for your son. If I were the judge and I found out you allowed your 8 yr old son to stay at the AFFAIR LAIR when you didn't have to, I would wonder how much you really cared about the boys welfare. You are the only sane person left here who can protect him. SO PROTECT HIM, Gale!

You most certainly are not trying to keep her from her son, you are trying to keep your son protected from her affair. You have told your wife she can come visit him there or take him to her mothers.

Protect your son, Gale!


This is all very manipulative and I hope you dont fall for it. Of course she has no say if she wants to drag your boy into her affair.

Gale,

Listen to me. Your son already knows. He may not know the whole scope and all the details, but he knows.
My son was just barely older than yours. He could see it in my eyes. I am sure he had also heard conversations.
He is waiting for you to come to him and include him in this.
He needs his fears to be validated just like you needed yours to be validated.
When I was feeling at my lowest and I could not even function as a father let alone anything else, my son came up to me and put his arm around me and said," Daddy if you ever need to talk to me I will listen to you" I went to total meltdown at that point.
If he had any doubts about what was going on, he knew that day!
This may be training day for the future of your son and any relationship he enters into.
Gale, find a good definition for adultery and sit him down and start there. Then state your goals for protecting him. He needs to understand that marriages are not throw away and these types of action are not acceptable. Be the one that molds him, not abandons him.

My lawyer reminded me that until we reach some sort of custody agreement, she could take our son and not bring him back. So, I have decided not to let her take him this weekend. She never called me to find out what my decision was though. My lawyer said he would contact her lawyer, and he said that if she called to tell her to contact her attorney. Her lawyer sent a letter and in it she said that she doesn't think there is anything wrong with my son going to OM's house. I made sure that my lawyer understands that I have to answer to a higher power than any judge. I figure I will hear from her today, I just hope she doesn't show up expecting to take our son somewhere.

Why not call her up and tell her she can't take the son to the OM's? Face her head on, Gale!

Well, I didn't get much sleep today because she calls me up and wants to take our son to OM's house. She said her lawyer told her that I cannot stop her from doing so. Then we were off to the races with me calling my lawyer, and WW threatening me with the cops. My lawyer said that without a court order, there was little we could do to stop her from taking him. I was starting to think that there might be a big commotion at the school this afternoon.

I must admit that I didn't worry too much about LB's while I was talking to her, but I wasn't mean at all. I told her what I think, and I told her that I am protecting our son from her affair. Finally, I reached a compromise with her. I agreed to let her take our son to a hotel for the weekend. I agreed to let her use the company card to pay for it, and I will pay the bill with "our" money. I am quite certain she will not try to take him and not bring him back. If she would do that, my lawyer assured me, she would be in a lot of trouble.

My son was happy that he is getting to see his mother. I want him to see her. I did have a talk with him though. I told him how the OM is not my friend, and that OM wants mommy to divorce daddy, so he can marry mommy. I tried to explain why this behaviour was wrong, but I am not sure if I got him to understand all of it. I expect that he will say something to WW this weekend, and she will probably get mad, but I don't really care. I told him that he is not allowed to go to OM's house. If she takes him there I believe my son will tell me.

WW has been talking to her friend and I guess she is the talk of the town. Her friend told her that everyone is talking about her, but nobody is talking about me. I guess that makes her angry as well, seeing as I am the reason she has had to do all of these crazy things.(lol) Really I don't want her to be the talk of the town, and I don't want anyones pity. I think she told me because people are questioning our son's paternity, and I sorta think she is attempting to work an angle on me. I think she believes that she can convince me that it would be better for our son to live somewhere else because of people talking. I would be happy to agree with her if we all moved away somewhere. But as it is right now, my son and I are staying put.

I lost control with my WW today, and I am beside myself. She brought our son home this afternoon. I went to help her carry his stuff in, and the first words out of her mouth were "you win". I'm like, win what? Seems that our son hates her now, because she is not coming back home to live with us, and somehow it is because I have turned him against her. She concentrates totally on her misconception of what I think about her. She does not listen to a word I say. I got fed up with it. I told her that she abandoned him, and when she denied it, I told her that it looks that way to him. I told her that she has lied and lied to that boy, and I can understand why he is mad at her. She insists that it is all about me trying to control her and her life. I told her that I am not trying to control her. I said that if she wants to have her affair to go have it. I don't need her crap anymore. I told her that I am protecting our son from her affair just like she protected him from my drinking. I said that I am sick and tired of being held responsible for everything that is wrong in her life. I then told her to get the *ell out of my house. Oh, and when I said all of these things I was yelling. That is the part that is killing me right now. I am not ashamed of what I said, but I am ashamed of the way I said it. I yelled at her just like when I was drinking, and I saw it in her face. This is why she is afraid to come back, and I don't blame her. I told her that I am not trying to get her to come back. I told her that she does need to come back to town so she can be with her son. She won't do it. She hates this town, and everything about it. She wouldn't even do it for her son, but I am the bad guy because I won't let her take our son into her affair. I am so sick right now I could throw up.

I have been thinking about what our MC said about passive aggressive behavior, and she might be on to something. Of course even she is telling me to end this marriage. Perhaps it is time I start to listen to the people around me. I have wanted to hold on to hope, and I still am. I don't want to give up on her yet. I am coming to accept that it probably will not work out, but I still hold out a little. She is just so deep into her depression, and her blaming me for absolutely everything. She said that all she wants to do is die. I told her that is not healthy thinking. But still everything is me not her.

Another day in paradise I guess.

Gale, I suspect she was HOPING to get you mad enough to yell at her. And unfortunately, you fell for it. Every time you explode at her, you give her the much needed ammunition to use against you. She has demonized you and as long as you play the part so well, she doesn't have to look at her own self. See how that works in her favor?

I know exactly how hard it is to NOT react, but here is the thing, Gale. You CAN respond in a civil and thoughtful way without yelling and carrying on. That way, you dont hand her a loaded gun to use against you.

But, I think you are smart enough to realize this. Please guard against the next time she comes over because we need for her to see you as an attractive alternative.

Why does she keep saying she wants to die? She seems to throw that around quite liberally. Does she really mean this or is she saying this to manipulate you?

Yes, I am certain that she wanted me to get mad. That is why I was so upset with myself. The day after I filed, I took everything that she had to throw at me, and I met it all with love and understanding. Yesterday, I dropped the ball, and I feel like I just lost everything that I gained in three months. I told myself that I would never yell at her again, and I did. I am having a hard time forgiving myself for that.

I guess I just had my fill of her blaming me. I did quite well for a while, she got in her car, and started to leave. Then she stopped and came back in to see our son once more before she left. That is when I got mad at her. She managed to get me to give her the proof she needs to know that I really haven't changed at all. I handed it to her on a silver platter. I haven't been able to shake the feeling that I sealed our fate.

I went to my meeting last night, but I didn't get much out of it. I think that I was so occupied with my misery that I couldn't listen very well. I was really feeling sorry for myself. I spoke with my higher power alot last night. I was asking for peace and guidance. I did feel a little better by morning.

I think the thing I am upset about the most is that she won't even consider coming back to town for our son. I told her that It's not about the marriage, it's about him needing his mother.

I don't know how serious she is about wanting to die, but I think that kind of threat should always be considered dangerous. I fear that she really might do something crazy. I was worried yesterday after she left. I was waiting for a call about her having a wreck or something.

I think the important thing here is to remember is that it really doesn't matter what you do, Gale, you CANNOT CONTROL HER. And i think the sooner you accept that, the sooner you will have some peace. You are doing the best you can with what you have to work with. It might not ever matter how well you can control your temper, she may not ever come back. On the other hand, if she wanted to come back, wild horses would not prevent her.

So, dust yourself off, my good friend, and start over tomorrow. You are doing extremely well and have much to be thankful for. Give yourself some credit! You have your boy there with you and that is the best place for him to be. Get off that pity pot and get back to work, Gale. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Thanks, I need that. Guess I just wanted to feel sorry for myself for a little bit. In a way, I just want to put her out of my mind, and concentrate on myself. I just can't seem to do that. Something always comes up.

Right now, I can't stop thinking about what I will do in another two weeks when she wants to take my son to OM's again. I can't help but think that I am going to have to let him go there sooner or later. From what she told me, she isn't even going to try to get a place up here. Of course our agreement will include the stipulation that OM is not to be around our son. But that agreement has yet to be finalized. I must find a way to let some of this go.

It has made me realize that perhaps I haven't completed step 3. Or maybe I keep getting in the way. I will meditate on this tonight, and I will read chapter 5 of the big book again. I have just let myself doubt too much these last couple of days.

Thanks again for the vote of confidence. I know I'll make it. Still sober!!

Hey Gale, the problem with her visitations is HERS. It is up to her to find a way to visit your son without taking him to the OM's lair. Let HER worry about it! You shouldn't have to come up with money for a hotel. Let her figure this all out. And if she doesn't have it all figured out, then she can either not see him at all, just take him for dinner or visit him at your home. But, she is a big girl and she can figure it out!

Unfortunately, I have to expect that the judge may not see it that way. My insistance that she not take him to OM's, even though the man was not home, could be viewed as a petty reaction from a sore loser. Granted, anyone that views it that way is sick themselves. I am going to insist that we add the immediate family of OM to the list of restrictions on the agreement, and I also want to demand a contingency about the spousal support to only be paid if she comes back to our town. For this, I will most likely have to give something. If I can get the restrictions in place, then I may have to stop resisting her taking him there, but then the OM, and his kids, will have to go somewhere. I don't know if my son will want to go there either. He is pretty angry with her right now. I also know that I will still want to prevent his going there.

WW actually texted me last night. This is the first that she has engaged me in conversation for a while. She asked if our son was still tying his shoes. She finally got him taught over the weekend. I told her yes hes is, and I love to see it. She later said that she misses him so much, thinks about him all the time, and she did not abandon him. I thought about telling her to prove it to him and come back to town, but I didn't say anything. I figure I will let her come to that conclusion.

I talked to my higher power alot last night, and I felt better this morning. I am going to a meeting tonight, and I am resolved to get my butt in the seats more. I prayed that he help take my obsession away, and to let her go so I can concentrate on myself. I feel that if I don't, there is no hope with or without her.

That is the right attitude, Gale! I am PROUD of you for not telling her to prove it to your boy. I know that took some effort, but it is a typical example of how sarcastic we can be sometimes. The problem is that it does not help you, which I know you know.

Am glad you are praying for guidance and peace. The more meetings you go to, the greater your peace. Do you talk to your sponsor? Do you like him?

She did it again last night. Sent a message that said, "I will deny this if you repeat it, but our relationship was not so bad compared to this.". This was a suprise. I didn't know what to say to her, but I offered her some moral support. Told her if she wanted to talk to go ahead. She said she couldn't talk, but she wasn't happy.

This afternoon, we texted some more. She is depressed and miserable. she feels lost and alone, and she doesn't know what to do. I told her that I wish I could help her, and I suggested she talk to our MC. She said she doesn't trust her, she doesn't trust anyone. I said I'm sorry to hear that, that I care about her very much, and if she needs a shoulder to lean on, I am here.

I worry about her, but I know that she has to take her own journey. Perhaps she'll get a clue, but I cannot count on it. My mom about went nuts when I told her what she said. I think mom's afraid I will just take her back, and I will be miserable.

I don't think she is going to come back right now. I told mom that I want WW to understand that the door is open, but my life doesn't depend on her return.

I must admit that I haven't been talking to my sponsor as much as I should. I don't know what to say to him most of the time, and I still have this hang up with bugging people. I know that he has agreed to be my sponsor, but I still feel uncomfortable calling for no good reason. I have tried to call him at least once a week, and I am sure you will say that is not enough. I do like the guy, I just have a problem with calling I guess.

It is hard to get to know a sponsor, I fully understand this feeling. But try and stick with once a week phone calls or coffees. Are you going to STEP MEETINGS where you have a turn to talk? What type of meetings are you attending?

I would have to say that some of your good Plan A is getting through!! Just stick with it a while longer. It is working, Gale!

Meetings I have been to are mostly lead meetings. On Wednesday and on Saturday morning, I have found a couple of open discussion meetings. Most Step, and Big Book meetings are too far away to get to.

Of course when I do open my mouth and talk, I feel like I am saying the wrong thing. I then spend the rest of the night thinking about what I should have said, or what I shouldn't have said. I over analyze everything. But then I decide that if they don't want to hear what I have to say, they can ask me to leave.

It ain't like I'm going in there telling anyone what they need to do to stay sober. The other night, I wasn't going to talk, but something made me. I figure if my higher power wanted me to say something, then he was the force that made me. I simply related my experience to a newcomer. She was sitting there doubting whether she is an alcoholic, but doubting that she can stop drinking if she is. I simply told her about the spiritual experience I had, and how God has kept me sober since. I also told her that I cannot let myself believe that God has "cured" me of my alcoholism, and that is why I am going to AA. Sooner or later, I will probably have a desire to drink. When that time comes, I want to have somebody I can call.

I am staying in loose contact with my sponsor, and I have a couple of people that have taken an interest in my sobriety. I am trying not to pressure myself so much, and I am trying to get my b*tt in the seats as much as I can. And above all, I am staying sober.

I still have a wait and see attitude with WW. I guess that she got into it with the OM the other night, and she turned to me for comfort. But hey, whatever works. It gives me the opportunity to PlanA her a little, and we'll see where it goes.

We texted a little today, but it was all about our son. I didn't say anything, and neither did she. The fact that she texts and ask ME how he is, instead of texting HIM like she was before, is probably a good sign. I ain't counting any chickens yet.

First things first.

Again with the text messages. Yesterday she sent one that said, "I can't do this anymore please help me somehow". She also tried to call, but I missed it. Today, she called while we were at my sisters house having mom and dad's anniversary dinner. She wanted to talk to our son, so I told her we would call her back. I called on our way home, and let our son talk to her. They talked a little while, and then he ended the call by saying, "I know you don't want to talk to daddy, so I will just let you go."

She called right back. I don't know why. I don't know if she wants me to say or do something, but I am not going to do it. If she wants me to ask her to come home, she is going to have to wait a while. She complained about having only $20 left, and her back is giving her problems, and she has these bills that need to be paid. She complained about missing our son, and how the post office is not going to hold her mail any longer. I told her she can have her mail forwarded to our house if she wants, or get a post office box. She said that don't make sense if she is down there. I said to have it sent down there then. I said that she needs to call her lawyer, and have all four of us sit down somewhere and iron out our agreement.

Never once did she indicate what it is that she cannot do anymore, or how I can help. I think she is being stubborn, and expecting me to take care of her. Again, I am not going to do that. She wanted to know if there is any money left from the store, and I told her that I am not done with everything yet. I haven't given it to the accountant for taxes yet either. Seems that what she wants is money.

She says that she doesn't want to come back to our town because of the rumors going around about our son's paternity. I told her that the whole town is not talking, and the select few people that are talking don't matter to me anyway. She of course thinks that these rumors will destroy our son's life, like parents will talk to their children, so they can tease our son at school. I believe that she actually thinks this will get me to let her take our son down there to protect him from those rumors. I'm sorry, but why in the world would I do that?

She is really in a bad place, I cannot help her if she doesn't want to be honest with herself. I cannot let her disfunction threaten my own progress, and for that reason, I haven't been reaching out to her. I have tried to let her know what is going on with our son, but she wants me to feel like I haven't. She says that she always prompted him to call me, and to let me know what was going on. I have done the same thing, but he doesn't want to talk to her. Yes, he misses her, and he wants her to come home. She wants to believe that he doesn't want anything to do with her. She let's her feelings get hurt by and eight year old child. I told my mom that she really needs to grow up.

I know that I am anything but perfect. I know that I have a long way to go, and a long way to grow. I am working on myself, and even though I would like to say everything is going great, I still get in my way sometimes. As I learn to really let go, and to really let God have his way with me, I see definite improvement. I see good things as long as I remain open to his will. When I start to get selfish, and I slack off on my program, I start to feel bad about things. It is good that I notice this. I now know what I need to do when things aren't going right. I have found a way to acceptance of the things that I cannot change.

I still want to save this marriage, but I will never get her back, until I let her go completely. I place her in God's hands. I pray that he looks after her, and helps her find her way.

Gale, the good thing about all this is that you are not allowing her manipulate you. I am surprised that she uses so many manipulative tactics and that she believes they will work. Is this something that has come out since her affair or has she always been this way but you are just seeing it now because you are sober? I am very relieved that you can see it for what it is and don't fall for it.

While you don't want to allow her to manipulate her, you can try and do things with her that will attract her back. Such as, inviting her out for a family dinner. Do your best to attract her back, and show her you have really changed. Expose her to the newfound sane outlook of Gale!


This is probably why you are thinking so clearly and handling this very well, Gale. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

One of the things that I was dreading has finally happened. WW's mother died today. WW is sad, but she was prepared for this, and she has been seeing her more lately. At least she shouldn't feel guilty for not spending time with her. She came up to see our son this evening. She was coming up even before we found out about MIL. We spent a lot of time looking for WW's good clothes out in the garage with all of her stuff from when I moved her out of her house.

When she arrived, I was cooking supper. I offered to make her some, so she took me up on it. As she was eating, she told me that OM is going to stay away from the funeral. I said "good", she got upset and thanked me for the food and left the room. I thought to myself "here we go again". I left her alone, and after a while I went to help her look through her stuff. We got along rather well.

She told me that she saw some chickens this weekend, and all she could think about was when we used to have chickens, and how happy we were then. I really hope that these thoughts can keep coming to her. I did my best to be kind, and not critical at all. I feel pretty good about it right now, just because that one little incident didn't turn into a problem, and the evening went well. OM is going to stay away from the funeral home, so I don't have to be the bad guy about not wanting him there. I think I did some good planA work.

Now I have an opportunity to be with her this week. I hope that we can keep up the good work. I am thinking about offering to cosign the lease on an apartment if she will come back to town. What do you think about that? Thought I might pass it by my lawyer anyway. maybe as part of the agreement. I told her we really need to settle that agreement, but of course this week is not going to be a good time to get it done. I will try to talk her into moving back though. She said she has to give the post office an address, and she might as well give them OM's.

I don't want to ask her to come home, but she knows that she ought to be closer to our son. She also knows that I still love her, and I am willing to forgive her. She apologized to me for our little argument last week when she brought our son home, and I apologized to her also. I hope that this is a good sign about what is going on in her head. I know that I can encourage good thinking by being kind, and caring about her. This is what I am doing.

nononnononono! If you do that, it will only make it easier for her to stay out there by PROTECTING HER from the consequences of her choices. She NEEDS to experience the consequences of her choices, Gale. That is the best thing for your marriage and the best thing for your son! It will also put you in financial jeopardy when she can't pay the rent. She must get a job and pay the rent HERSELF. Cosigning her lease might garner some fleeting gratitude, but it will go away quickly and will only HARM your chances at saving your marriage. Don't DO THIS!

Instead, work very hard on making yourself and your home an attractive alternative. That is what you want her to think about. If you help her get an apartment, she won't have to consider that option at all.

Sorry to hear about your MIL. It is good taht you will be there to help her through this. Just don't let your sympathetic feelings impair your judgement, ok?

I know, I shouldn't sign that lease. I also thought about my last post on the way to work, and I can see how a few good hours can cloud my judgement. What is this power this woman has over me? Mom thinks it's all manipulation to get something. I don't know. I feel very sorry for her right now, and I love her. I will do my best to keep my head on straight. I was pretty sure you would say don't do it, and it seems to help me when I have someone else tell me not to do something. I can then say that I was "advised" against it.

She is feeling very alone right now. I fear that it only encourages her to stay down there. I seems that all of her friends around here have abandoned her. She doesn't hear from any of them. But if OM is so wonderful, why is she so sad and lonely? We spoke briefly today, she talked about how all of her family is gone. I told her she still has a family, and I got the old "you don't understand" line. Oh well, I tried.

Gale, just keep reaching out to her so she views you as a safe place to land but don't allow her to manipulate you and don't protect her from the consequences of her choices. Her feeling alone will draw her to you if you don't step in and save her in a negative way. I know that you are seeing this because you do have very good instincts about her manipulative behavior. The thing is that she doesn't have to feel alone and I see her reaching out to you more and more.

Her life is crumbling all around her and the OM won't be able to save her from this much longer. This does not bode well for her affair, so I would suspect it is crumbling.

Well it seems that at least you have some faith in my instincts. Seems to me that my vision is more hindsighted. Can't help feeling like a sucker sometimes.

I really did enjoy seeing her last night. She was still very negative, but there were little bits of my wife in there. She woke up today with a chest cold. This of course feeds her negativity. Absolutely nothing is going right for her. I still fear that she will just give up, and try something foolish again. I listen to the people that tell me that this is her choice, and I cannot change her. I know, I know, but my heart still feels it. I want to save her. I have handed this over to God, and I trust that whatever is to be will be. I sometimes wonder though if I really want her back.

Can't help but feel that if she does come back, what I am going through now is going to end up being the "easy" part. Wonder if I have what it takes to see this through. I am not going to worry myself too much about it unless it happens.

And my mother thinks that OM will hold on to her for dear life at least until he gets his hands on her money. We'll see about that too.

We'll just have to give her lots of hugs this week, and show her that I am there for her.

That was one of the more painful experiences in my life. Not the funeral, but being so actively ignored by my WW. It really hurts when someone goes out of their way not to look at you, and that is what she did all night last night. I am so upset right now, that I want to send her a plan go to h**l letter. I took it, because I wanted our son to be there, but I was so ready to go back to the hotel, pack my things and come home. It just shows me how little regard she has for me or my feelings. I am the last person on earth that matters to her. Or at least that is the way she acts.

I am tired of it. The disrespect has gone on for a long long time, and it obviously is only getting worse. She cried and cried today. Of course she would, her mother, the last member of her family, is gone. But on the way back from the cemetary she said "my family is all dead" I thought to myself what the heck are me and my son? chopped liver? She seems to have taken selfishness to a new level.

At the cemetary, she didn't want to leave. It was really cold and windy, and the pastor came over and spoke to her for a while. He prayed for her to allow Jesus into her heart, and only that would help her find peace. The words that he used were actually kinda spooky. Later she asked me who put him up to it, because what he asked for in his prayer, is exactly what she has told me time and time again she needs in her life. I never spoke to this man about our problem. I like to think that maybe God had something to do with it. Needless to say, as he was praying I thought that all it would do is make her mad. Maybe it will make her think a little too.

As my son and I were leaving, I gave her a hug. It was about the only one I was allowed to give her while I was there. I told her that I was probably the last person that she wanted a hug from, but I was giving her one anyway. She said thanks, she told me that I was there for her. I was there for her when her dad died, when her brother died, and now her mom. I told her that I love her. I looked her square in the eye and told her that I love her. She said "I know" She was sobbing. I left it at that. I got in the truck, and said to myself "I was there for you alright".

On our way home, I stopped at the cemetary and took a couple of pictures of the grave. I sent these to her, and she sent back a text that said thanks.

I asked if she is still checking her email, because I haven't even tried to send one since she went to OM's. She said yes. I am really wanting to send her a letter. I just don't know what to say. In a way I want to chew her a new a**hole, and in a way I want to ask her to come home. In reality, I am not going to do either, but I want to communicate with her somehow. I would like her to know how I feel about this whole thing, but I don't want to drive her deeper into despair.

Why oh why do I still love this woman? She has broken my heart time and time again. Yet, I still love her. I have been there for her time and time again, and I get nothing but grief. Life is way too short for this. I think I need a meeting.

ohmigosh, you did an absolutely beautiful job today, my friend. You made bookoo love bank deposits today by being there for her. You are truly the lighthouse in the fog! The OM was not there and this did not go unnoticed. As you said: "She said thanks, she told me that I was there for her. I was there for her when her dad died, when her brother died, and now her mom."

The OM cannot compete with that, Gale. He is not there for her. He has no history with her. He is not extending a helping hand and she sees this.

I am also very hopeful about the prayer the pastor with her. That is exactly how my H became a changed man. He accepted Jesus into his heart [he was caught unawares in just the same manner] and he has never been the same. We can only pray that this same thing will happen to her.

Gale, its funny but you are despairing and I am cheering. What you have written here gives me more hope than any other post you have made. You are growing in leaps and bounds and turning into a man with a solid rudder who can lead his wife out of this morass. And she is seeing that. SHE IS RESPONDING. Just give her more time and she will come out of the fog. You have become her lighthouse. You did good. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Thanks for the words of encouragement. You have helped me tremendously. I am still a little low, but you've helped me look at things from a different angle. It just hurts so bad.

Perhaps I did make some deposits in her love bank, but she sure made some withdrawls from mine. My love bank must be minting it's own coins, because it should have run dry a long time ago. I told my mom last night, while WW was ignoring me, "I just wish she didn't look so good". My mom told me that I will get over that sooner or later. Looks are only skin deep. I know it's not just her looks that keep me loving her. In fact, I doubt that would be enough. I just know she's got a good heart in there somewhere under all the crap. I remember how she used to be.

I'm thinking of just sending a note that tells her that her family is not dead. That we love her, and are waiting for her.

Thanks again, Thanks for everything.
And I thank God too!

Oh Gale - you did so well, I canot endorse ML enough. You have flooded her love bank. Now her FOO is gone she will need a lot of love and understanding. This is a threshold in her life ... I know she hurt you when she said her family was gone, but she was in pain and doesn't know the term FOO.

You did good and so did the pastor - God whispers mighty strong when the time is right.

Even the OM did good, he stayed away.

Linda

How did she used to be? And how long has it been since she was like that?

p.s. I hope you are hitting a meeting soon. The poor me's can easily turn into the "pour me a drink!" <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> That is what my sponsor used to tell me! Isn't that the corniest cliche'? lol <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

As a matter of fact, I went to a meeting tonight. And I have heard that same line as "Poor me Poor me Pour me another one" I didn't feel like going, but I felt like I should go. (Does that make sense?) I've heard that the ones you don't want to go to are the ones you need the most. I went, I feel better. I wasn't struggling with wanting to drink, but I sure do struggle with the stinkin thinkin.

How did she used to be? We didn't have a perfect marriage. But she genuinely loved me, and I could tell. Warm, nurturing, caring, forgiving. Good and kind, always willing to do those little things. I'm not sure how to describe it exactly. And we could talk. We would talk and talk. Talk about anything except matters of the heart. Then we would get defensive. As time went on, I think we tried so hard to be married that we started to lose our friendship. Resentments grew, and I, being the alcoholic that I am, LB'd the s**t out of her. She of course returned the favor. (she had her flaws too, but I have chosen to omit them at this time.)

We bought this house in 94. By 96 we were having problems. The A's happened in 97 and we both went to he*l from there. We both tried at different times to turn things around, but we never tried together. We would get our feelings hurt, and give up again. By 98 we had that store, and our son. I believe that we both used these as an excuse to stick it out and try, but we never did a very good job of it. She has been a warm and gentle loving mother to our son. She has tried to protect him from my drinking problem as best she could. Unfortunately, she doesn't see a need to protect him from her bad behavior now.

If anything, she is too sensitive. So am I. But I love her warts and all.

So this morning I get woke up by the phone ringing. I answer, and she asks if she can have our son for the weekend. I sat there in silence for a few seconds and she got upset, and said "never mind, my mom just died, but you aren't going to let me have my son". Then she hung up.

I make love bank deposits, and she just spends the dang things.

I made our son call her this evening. He didn't want to, but I told him that mommy was sad, and maybe he could cheer her up a little. I didn't listen to the conversation, but I hope it helped.

I haven't heard back from her all day, so I don't know how she is feeling.

Doesn't sound like this tactic has been too successful for her, does it? I'm not sure what in the world her mother's death had to do with the issue, but its introduction didn't help in setting up weekend arrangements.

What kind of visitation does she have now? Does she even have a place she could take him for the weekend?

We still have no legal agreement signed. Our lawyers are doing a good job of writing back and forth and getting nothing done. I told my lawyer to set up a meeting for all four of us to get together and get this settled. If she wanted to go to his school and take him she can, and that bothers me.

The tentative agreement restricts her from taking our son around OM. Until it is signed there is no such restriction. Just me refusing to allow her to have him if that is her plan. She has nowhere to take our son except OM's, and she is doing nothing about moving back to our town like she said she wanted to. That is because she doesn't want to. I don't know what she thinks she will do for visitation when this agreement is signed, but then I don't know if she is even aware of the restriction. She has just sat there doing nothing for more than a month now. No job no nothing.

I would say that her mothers death was just an excuse. She figures that I am feeling sorry for her, and I will be more likely to give in to letting her take our son there. If she could actually convince me that there would be something beneficial for my son in going there, I would be more likely to consider it. But her desire to have him there has absolutely nothing to do with our son or his benefit. It has everything to do with her narcisistic desire to have him with her to make her feel better at his expense. This, to me, is a little twisted. Further evidence that she is sick. She is so selfish that she cannot even seem to consider our son's needs. She swears that she had every intention of killing herself that day. Can anyone be more selfish than that?

I am glad you are able to see through her manipulative tactics, for your son's sake, Gale. I wonder if there is a way to get them together that would benefit your son and alleviate her feelings of powerlessless? Such as a suggestion to her the next time you speak to her that she come to your town, pick up your son and spend the afternoon taking him to lunch and to a movie?

I think the more you stick to your guns about him going to the OM's house, will mean the sooner she gets off her [censored] and gets a job and a house. How do you think she is supporting herself?

p.s. does her dad know she is shacking up with an OM?

Her father died in 1982. I'm sure he knows, and if he could possibly communicate with her, I wish he would.

I do intend to stick to my guns, I just pray that the court doesn't step in and force me to do something that I believe is harmful to our son.

She is not supporting herself to the best of my knowledge. It sounds like all she has done is sit around OM's place doing nothing, and feeling sorry for herself. She tells me that she is dead inside, and doesn't know what to do. She doesn't want me telling her what to do, and I don't know what OM tells her. She has told me that she doesn't want to come back to our town, because of people talking about her. I don't know if anything is going to get her up and about. Of course the OM might tire of her just sitting there too. I still don't know what it is that he does for money. For all I know, he has not worked one day since she met him last april. But I am certain that they can get by on their love for each other.

**snort** no doubt! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Somehow I suspect that things are not well in affair land. Not only does OM have this woman, to whom he is in NO WAY committed, mooching off him, but he has to listen to her constant whining about her miserable lot in life and how much she misses her son! Not too romantic, huh?? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I too would like to hope that things are not going so well for the two of them. Some of the texts that she sent me over the last two weeks seem to indicate that she is feeling very lonely down there. This would lead me to believe that OM is not always there for her like she thought he would be.

I think that her fear of giving me another chance is still very strong, and she would rather sit in her familiar he*l than chance going back to what she has been living through with me. I don't know if I can convince her that I have had a true change of heart or not. I know that she doesn't trust me at all, but I have shown her time and again that I do care about her.

Haven't heard from her since she asked to take our son. I'm not sure if that is good or not, but oh well. My mom is very upset with her, and told me that she is going to give WW a call. I thought about it, and decided not to discourage her from this, because she has a right to do as she wishes. I hope that she doesn't make things worse, but I doubt that she can.

Gale, when you say she doesn't trust you, what exactly does that mean? Trust you to do what? Stay sober?

Also, you say that she moved out in the winter but met the OM in the spring. How do you know she met the OM AFTER she moved out and didn't move out BECAUSE OF him? What precipitated her move?

I don't see any issue with your mother calling her. What is she going to say?

Mom changed her mind about calling her. Said she got over her "angries", and decided that nothing would be gained by calling.

As far as trust. She doesn't trust me to stay sober. She doesn't trust me to protect her feelings and not "blow up" at her. She doesn't trust me not to hold a grudge, and make her pay for what she is doing. She doesn't trust that I will be anything other than what I have been these last nine years.

I have determined that there was yet another OM at the time she moved out. A man was coming into the store and talking to her alot. She insists that there was nothing going on, but to me it would qualify as an EA. At least one sided. I believe that this man wouldn't get involved because she was married, and that is why she moved out. Hoping that she could get closer to him. He got back together with his GF in Jan., and my WW was very very upset. I could be wrong though. It could have been this guy. I won't really know unless she decides to tell me. All of this is what I have pieced together. I could be totally wrong.

I just got the call to inform me that because of my selfishness, my WW had a terrible weekend. Since I flat out refused to let her be near our son this weekend, she went through he*l. Even though I never even got a chance to say no to her, it was all my fault that she didn't get to see or be with our son.

Shouldn't even have engaged her in conversation, but I had to tell her that she is pulling things out of her imagination and attributing them to me. She really hates me right now. Oh well, I wouldn't accept the blame.

She thinks I am trying to manipulate her. She says that my not letting our son go to OM's house is my way of trying to control her. I told her that I am trying to protect him from something that I believe is harmful to him. I said that she is teaching him a terrible, nasty lesson about good and bad. She hung up.

She always brings up my drinking. I told her that she is comparing apples and oranges. I said that I never tried to get our son to drink the beer. I never tried to take him out partying. I might have driven with him when I had a beer, but I challenged her to tell me when I had driven him after having anything more than ONE beer. She couldn't tell me, because I couldn't tell you either. I was guilty of drinking a beer one the way home from work while taking my son home from school. I was not drunk. This in no way says that what I did was right, but it isn't the same as trying to involve our child in her affair.

What you said was absolutely perfect. I like what you told her about the terrible lesson she would be teaching your son by taking him around her affair. Your drinking analogy was right on.

But will you do something the next time she throws your drinking up in your face? AGREE WITH HER if it is true. Tell her, you are darn right and I was one sickening individual. I am not that man anymore, but it grieves me that I acted so terribly. Show her some true remorse, Gale. You owe her an apology for your behavior, you really do. And I think it may disarm her and stop her from accusing you at every turn. Just throw your hands up and agree! So much easier than playing defense.

And if you do that, she might follow suit and start taking an honest look at her bad behavior.

What about my suggestion above that she come to town and spend the afternoon with him in town? What did you think of that?

I do believe that I have done this. I have agreed with her that I was in the wrong with my drinking. I just won't take the blame for things I didn't do. I will not let her get away with twisting history the way she wants to. I will agree with her as long as I am not fueling her fantasies. I have told her that I cannot apologize enough for the way I have acted and the things that I have done.

As for her following suit, I don't think she will let me see this for some time. If it helps her to take an honest look at herself though, that would be good.

I like the idea of her visiting for the day, but she doesn't. She wants to take him for the weekend, and she wants to take him there. I see it as her trying to control me, and force me to let our son get involved in her affair. She claims that she has no other options, and she is there because cercumstance has forced her to be there. She refuses to admit that she is there because she wants to be. I think that maybe this is what she believes, so I do my best to tell her I see it. I just keep telling her that it is within her power to do whatever it is that she wants to do. She "chooses" to sit idle, and do nothing. She then blames me, and everyone else for her decision.

I texted her last night after the call. Maybe I shouldn't have, but I felt it was the right thing to do. I said, "I will not own the concequences of your decisions. I will not be a victim of your selfishness. I will protect our son from this affair. I love you."

Well, I must have made her pretty mad the other night. She called me this evening and informed me that since we still do not have a legal agreement, she is going to pick up our son next week and take him wherever she wants to, and there is nothing I can do about it.

I am beside myself right now. I resign myself to just let her go, and she finds some way to come crashing into the forefront again. I just sent a note to my lawyer to see if there is any way we can prevent this, but I must admit that I am not too optomistic at this moment.

I don't know if I can get a court order, or if I can get one soon enough or not. I don't even know if it is possible.

I hung up the phone before I became too angry, because I could feel it boiling down inside. I'm sure that gave her a sense of victory. Hope she feels better now.

Call your lawyer, Gale, and see what you can do to move this along. yikes!

Gale,

Until our temporary court hearing (one she wishes she wouldn't have asked for now) and the Judge's decree excluding the OM from being around our children I had to deal with the same selfish arrogance on behalf of my EX WW. I tell you what I told her prior to the court order (warning this is probably a LB/DJ)" R, you do what you need or want to do in your selfish state, choose not to take our children's best interests to heart and please your own selfish desires but know this "I swear before God in heaven that I will beat you about the head with this in court should you choose to harm the children by having them around the OM". She didn't believe me so I showed her in court and the Judge wasn't all to happy that she saw fit to introduce a married OM to our children and she paid for it (and many other things she did) with losing custody of our 20 mo. old son to me. She now has to live with this forever. In short courts do not look favorably upon introducing new affair partners to children and your lawyer should be able to use her selfish, unstable and irrational behavior against her should you have a custody battle.

I just spoke with my lawyer, and he will send her lawyer a letter reinforcing my disapproval of her having our son around the OM. If she allows this to happen, it will work against her in court. I explained to him that things have changed. She appears to have taken up permanent residence with OM, and her desire is to take our son there as well. He said this will not be so easy for her to achieve with the courts.

I prayed about it alot last night. I asked for guidance and understanding about what to do. I fear for my son, and I don't want him hurt. I don't know why I feel so strongly that he will be hurt, but I do. It is hard for me to let him go into harm's way. I don't want him to think that I am letting him down. I do feel a little more peaceful about it. I feel that God will see to it that he comes to no harm.

I don't fully know what her plan is. Our son has a four day weekend, and I'm not sure if she intends to take him for that entire time or not. I cannot imaging that OM is going to vacate his house for four days. I also had planned on taking him trick or treating next thursday evening in town. I hope she doesn't mess that up. That wouldn't be very nice for him.

Gale, just remember that you are the only one here to protect him. YOU ARE ALL HE HAS! Right now, his mother is not stable and is not a good influence on him. So, unless she can prove to you that she won't drag him into her sleazy affair and take proper care of him, I wouldn't let her take him. Make her wait until the visitation agreement is finalized. If she protests, make HER explain to a judge that she wants to take your boy into her affair den.

So, don't wait to find out what HER plan is, tell her what YOUR PLAN will be. And your plan is to protect your son from her sleazy affair. Hang tough when it comes to your son!

This could be a fun week. I don't even want to call her and tell her that she cannot have him next weekend. I don't want to, because I fear that I will not be able to keep my cool when the verbal assault comes flying my way. I don't want to say anything that I will regret. I would prefer not to say anything to her at all.

I am still pretty angry with her about the funeral, and she just keeps getting deeper and deeper into her mess. She almost becomes violent when I tell her that I am protecting our son from her affair.

She called our son twice tonight. He told me that she was really sad. She needed him to make her feel better. He gave her kisses over the phone.

I might have a talk with the chief of police here in town, to warn him about her desire to come get our son. She has every right to come get him. But I have every right not to let him go. It could lead to a very public confrontation at the school. I don't want this for my son. Do you know if anyone else has had to deal with this? What did they do?

I will probably go ahead and call her about it, but I will wait until monday to do so. I would prefer to text her, but that would be the cowardly way to do this. I will pray for courage. I will pray for a steady tongue too.

Well, what do you know, the power of prayer amazes me. I spoke with WW today, and I kept my cool the whole time. I didn't have to call her, she called me. Obviously my lawyer's letter lead to a call from her lawyer about her plan.

I think her call was intended to beg me to let her have our son, but it never came to that. She was weepy, and tried to get me to "understand" what she is going through. She kept telling me that she did not "abandon" our son. I didnt tell her what I think, as my opinion is just that, my opinion. She doesn't need my opinion right now, she needs to search for the truth. I have also come to believe that when I offer my opinion, it is really just a cleverly disguised love buster. If not to me, it is to her, and besides, I don't want to hurt her feelings. If her feelings are hurting, I want her to know that it is within herself to stop it. I don't want to pose any type of threat whatsoever. My mere existence seems to be threatening enough.

I did have the opportunity to clarify with her some of her misinterpretations of my actions and feelings. She seems to have convinced herself that I didn't care at all about her attempted suicide. I told her that I was greatly concerned about her that day, and I was frustrated at the least when the police wouldn't offer any information to me, yet seemed to be staying in constant contact with OM. I told her that maybe she thinks that nobody else cared, because she wouldn't talk to anyone else that day. I told her, "of course he found you. He is the only person that you would talk to. He is the only one you would tell anything to." I told her that I was driving around here, looking for her too. On the off chance that she never really went too far from home. I expressed how scared for her I was that day, and that I didn't want anything to happen to her. This all seemed to be news to her. But it seemed to change her tone a little bit. She said I never told her any of that, and I told her that she hasn't given me a chance. Today is about the first time we have had a chance to talk without arguing with each other, or without her being so defensive.

She said that today was about the first time that she had been alone since she went down there. She is all upset that she doesn't have any money, but she isn't doing anything to get a job. For some reason she seems to think that getting a job down there will somehow mean that she is giving up her son. I thought to myself, "what the he*l does taking up residence with OM mean?" I asked why OM can't give her some gas money so she can come see her son, and she explained how OM is struggling too. He is still on unemployment, and is now going to school to get a CDL. That will make for a nice future for them. He will go over the road, chasing all the women he wants, while she stays home and watches his kids.(sorry, just being facetious)

Despite all of her pain, she cannot fathom coming back to our town. Not now, after what she did. She cannot face the people in this town now, and she is mad at everyone, because they all turned their backs on her. She doesn't feel like she has any friends here anymore, and cannot bear the thought of coming back here. She will not come back to be with her son. She is more concerned about her own comfort that she is about her son. This doesn't make sense, to me it is proof that she is ill. If you ask me, I think OM gave her the same ultimatum about coming back to town that he gave her about giving our marriage another chance. He told her that if she gave me a chance, he would have nothing to do with her ever again. He was betting that she wouldn't chance losing him to save our marriage. I am convinced that since it worked so well then, he enhanced the threat to include coming back up here.

I am not too optomistic about our conversation, but I am glad that I had the chance to talk to her. I had the opportunity to show her how I am working on myself, and how I am dealing with my problems. She said that talking to me is like talking to a councelor. I said that I am not trying to act differently, but I have been counceling alot, and working my program in AA, so I might talk like it. She wants to believe that I think I am better than her, and I did my best to make sure she knows I do not feel that way.

After it was all done and said, I don't know if she still expects to get our son or not.

She called today and asked if I would let our son go there if OM would stay away. I told her no. She got upset, and hung up. After thinking about it awhile, I called her back. I asked her why she couldn't come up here and spend the day with our son. She said that she wanted to spend the night with him, and cook him breakfast. I told her that I have to work friday night, and I can go to an AA meeting. I would really not be home too much. If she wanted to spend the night, I wouldn't be there until morning. I could then go sleep in the other room, and let them spend time together. She asked me if I would make pizza while she was here, and I agreed. She asked if I would not talk condescendingly to her, and I told her that I didn't realize that I did that because I don't consider myself any better than her, but I agreed not to anyway. She then told me that she would have to lie to OM about it, because he doesn't want her to have anything to do with me.(that's no big suprise) I told her that I don't give a rat's a*s about him so lie all you want to. So now we will have to see if she actually goes through with it. I am not telling my son that she is coming, in case she backs out. I must admit that I look forward to the opportunity to actually planA her a little.

Excellent! Now she can see her son and you have a chance to be around her without lovebusting. And the frosting on the cake is that she is now LYING to the OM. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Pretty soon this house of cards will collapse, you know?

If you make this pleasant enough, she will surely be back for more because if she has to LIE to the OM to see her son at his home, then this affair already has huge problems. She will soon resent having to do this and will come to blame him for seperating her from her son.

Here is the only caution I can see here. Whatever you do, DO NOT criticize the OM right now. Even if you have to bite your tongue bloody. And let me tell you why. She is going to begin to resent him for causing such conflict in order for her to see her son. If you attack him in any way, she will go into DEFENSE MODE instead and will be diverted from her growing resentment.

And when the OM finds out she is staying with you?? SWEET! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I read you loud and clear. I will have to double my efforts to prevent attacking OM. It's funny how I refer to him by all sorts of terms, but never by his name. Most of the time I call him "Mr. Wonderful", this is usually said in a very sarcastic tone. Last week when I was talking to
WW, I called him a SOB, and she immediately defended him. I know that I cannot do this. I usually try not to talk about him at all, as this helps prevent any name calling or attacking I might be tempted to do.

If she actually does come up, I hope to give her as much space as possible. She did say that she would help me clean up the room that I want to turn into a bedroom for our son. I have wanted her help cleaning this house for a long time, since most of the junk in the house is hers. She really did leave me with a mess. She also said she wants to clean the bathtub, because she says I don't know how to do it. Now I'm not sure if I should clean it before she comes or leave it for her, so she will feel like I need her a little.

Another thing that she told me was that she really took me for granted. I am not sure exactly what she meant by that. I would like to take it as a sign that she might feel she's being taken advantage of down there.

Do you have the book Lovebusters? If not, will you order it online? In the meantime, CAREFULLY read the articles here again so you can identify anything you haven't seen before. Particularly speaking to her in a condescending manner and blasting that OM in front of her. You can come here and blast him all you want to me, though. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I am really, really liking this new development and think you hve a GREAT opportunity to welcome her backc home. Or at least make her WANT to come back. It would be nice if you could have the house all nice and clean and organized. Make it as PLEASANT as possible, but let her know that you just can't seem to "keep it as clean as she did." <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> Make her feel NEEDED!

You could also buy her some special food and drinks that she likes. Don't go overboard or anything but just let her know that you were thinking of her.

Oh my, I wish I could say that this weekend is going without a hitch, but if there were any more hitches here, I would be a trailer salesman.

As I speak, my WW is on her way back to OM's house to get her stuff. She is so upset right now, I fear for her. I can only pray that she doesn't do anything foolish. She is not getting her stuff because she wants to come home. She doesn't want to come here either. She has no place to go, and that is what has me so concerned. I asked her to come back here and let me help her figure out what to do. I don't know if she will or not. She is in God's hands right now, and I pray that he keeps her safe.

The weekend started out ok. She arrived, and we were pleasant. I left to get the steaks that I promised her, and when I returned, everything had changed. She found a note that my mom wrote that detailed events up to the time she attempted suicide. My mom wrote this for me to take to the lawyer's office, so I could remember everything I needed to tell him. I had taken it out of my pocket, and thrown it in a drawer. My wife found it, and read it, and got really mad. That set the tone for the rest of the weekend up till a few hours ago.

She was trying to pick a fight with me. She needed me to live up to her expectations. I wouldn't give her the pleasure. I told her that I would like to talk to her, but I wanted her here to spend time with our son, and I didn't want to talk with him in the room.

I went to my mom's and slept for a couple of hours yesterday, and then I went to work. When I came home this morning, I asked if she wanted me to go to mom's, and she said yes. Before I left for mom's, she asked me if I would pay for her car insurance, since it expires at the end of the month. I said I would think about it. I slept at mom's house, then came back to make the pizza that I promised. We ate the pizza, and she started going through some of her things that she wanted to take back to OM's house. I will admit that I wasn't too happy with her, but I wouldn't argue or talk about it. I went to a meeting tonight, and when I got back home, I again asked if she wanted me to spend the night at mom's. She said yes. Before I left, she was still trying to pick a fight, and I told her that I would like to have a civilized conversation, but not around our son. We ended up talking in another room.

I tried to explain that if she would come back to town, and end her affair, I would be happy to help in any way I can. But if she is going to live with OM, clean OM's clothes, cook OM dinner, and sleep with OM, I am not going to help her at all. If she wants to act like his wife, then he can support her. I said all of this without love busters, or any harsh words. She was upset with me of course, and when she realized that I don't intend to buy her insurance, she decided it was time for me to go to mom's.

Now just an hour ago, she calls me and wants me to come home so she can go get her stuff out of his house. She must have been talking to him, and they must have gotten into a fight. I really don't know. I rushed back home, and I tried to talk to her. I tried to get her to understand that it's not about staying married, but that I care about her, and want to help her figure out what to do. I am certain that she feels like she has absolutely noone right now, and that puts her in a dangerous place.

I don't know what to do other than pray. I am doing that alot right now.

Gale, DO NOT leave your house again to accommodate her. That is contributing to her insanity. Her house of cards is now crumbling and she is going to have to make some hard choices. You are her husband, not her friend, and not her pseudo roommate. You should not spend one second away from your house because that only prolongs the inevitable bottom she needs to hit. Let her hit her bottom, Gale! It is in the best interest of your marriage and your son.

She desperately needs you to be the sane lighthouse in her life, since she has completely lost it. You can't do that by going along with her schemes. Tell her she is welcome to come home if she wants to be a wife, if not she will have to find a place to live and get a job. Then go rent her a hotel room for a week.

She has some serious emotional problems, doesn't she, Gale?

Major emotional problems. She only got half way to OM's house, then she turned around to come get her stuff. She told me that "right or wrong" she has decided to stay with OM. We were up all night talking. I didn't really try to change her mind. I don't see much point in that any more. She just keeps going back to 1998. She has a lot of anger and resentment built up, and as long as OM is in the picture, she won't deal with it.

By the time it was all said and done, she was very angry about me not letting her take our son to OM's house. She insists that he won't be hurt. I told her that I believe that he will be hurt, and I am trying to do what is best for him. She brings up my drinking, and says that I didn't have his best interest in mind then. I agreed, and I told her that I am not drinking now, and I want to do what is right for him.

She insisted that she will not leave the lawyer's office this thursday without the right to take our son to OM's house. If she doesn't get him, she says she will kill herself. Who's best interest does she have in mind there? She told me that she hates me, and she always will. That hurt. I told her that I love her.

There is no sense debating with her, so I didn't. I explained alot about what has been happening in my life since I have sobered up. And we talked about alot of the things that have lead up to our current mess. Bottom line is that she is not willing to forgive me for things that happened a long time ago. I know that as long as OM is there, she won't even consider it.

Let go, let God.

As far as leaving the house, I needed to leave so I could get some sleep on saturday. My son would not leave me alone if I tried to sleep at home. On Saturday night, I probably should have stayed, but I had nowhere in the house to go, and I was wide awake. Besides, it should be a mute point now. She swears that she will not do it again. She insists that she should have the right to take him to where she lives.

This is preying on my mind. I need to be strong for my son, but I can easily find myself weakened by her tears. I don't know what to do on thursday. I don't know if my lawyer will suggest that I give in on the visitation or not. I don't want the judge to think that I am trying to keep them apart. Coming back to our town is not an option for her. She hates the town, and the way people talk. She finally told me that the real reason she doesn't want to come back to our town is because I am here. I think she was mad when she said that.

What if I have no option other than to let her take him to OM's as long as the OM is not there. I cannot go into negotiation expecting to get everything that I want. What can I be willing to bend on? She is asking for a weekly payment for support. I do not want to give her any money, specially if she is living with OM. Do I let her have visitation in order to get out of giving her money?

I also know that I am sitting on a lump of money that belongs to us, and she is sitting there flat broke. I am not using any of this money, and I struggle to pay my bills also. She wants that money. I know that it is not in her best interest to have it. I just find myself torn between wanting her to suffer to hit bottom, and wanting to help her out. I don't want to help her if that man is involved at all, but I cannot seem to get angry enough to not care about her. What the he ll is wrong with me?

She told me that she told our councilor that the only way she and I could possibly have a future together is for her to be with OM right now. I don't fully understand what she means by that, but I told her that I believe everything happens for a reason. I also told her that her insistance in having her affair is forcing me to move on, and I cannot hold out forever. Of course, that is what she wants right now.

She wants to believe that what I am doing by forbidding our son from going to OM's is my way of controlling her life, and trying to keep her from being happy. It feeds all of her messed up ideas about me. She really seems to think that I am trying to destroy her. Funny, I could let myself think the same thing. She insists that she really wanted to die that day. And OM was the only one that cared. She doesn't listen to a thing I say, and I don't know why I wasted another night of my life talking to her. I do think that I got in some good points, and I showed her that I love her. I also lost some more of my love for her this weekend, and I fear that the affair will win.

I am getting tired of trying. I am not going anywhere in my life. I am slowly working on step 4, and I am hitting two or three meetings a week. I am not struggling with a desire to drink at all, and I worry that it will suprise me. I don't know how to make friends, and I don't know what to do. I am spinning my wheels and I am upset with myself. I am asking God to help me with all of this, and I try to have faith that all will work out.

According to my original plan, I have two more months of planA. I hope I can make it.

Gale, don't give up on trying to protect your son. She is trying to beat you down so she can drag your son into her sleazy affair. Don't let her do that. Your son's best interest should never be negotiated away in order to appease a self destructive, crazy WS. You are ALL he has right now. There is no one left to protect him.


Coming back to your town most certainly IS an option for her and will be if she has your son's best interest at heart. Better that she sacrifice her selfish fears than drag her son out of town into her sleazy affair into her affair lair. Good grief, she is the grown up here! You can tell the judge the TRUTH, that you have made endless offers for her to come and visit your son, but you REFUSE to allow your boy to get dragged into her immoral, unstable situation. This is a woman who shacks up with a low man and who threatens suicide at the drop of the hat. You can't exactly send your child into that sick environment, in good conscience. Your wife cannot be trusted with him.

Be sure and document EVERYTHING, Gale. Start a journal that outlines your offers for her to see your son.

I wonder if you are getting ripe for Plan B? She is wearing you down and much more of this is going to drive you crazy. You need some peace and so does your son. But before you can do that, you need to get this visitation thing ironed out along with the finances. When will your visitation agreement be finalized?

Hi Gale - I have not posted to you before, but just wanted to offer up some words of encouragement. Stay strong for your son. You are all that your son has for the moment. Fight hard to not let him be exposed to the OM.

I hope you gather strength and guidance from Him.

Blessings,

Kim

Thank you Kimberly, and thank you Melody. It's funny how any time I spend more than a few minutes with WW, it really seems to get me down. Rereading my post from yesterday shows me how she effects my mood. I have thought for a while that I might move planB up a little, but I wanted some sort of agreement in place first.

Yesterday I saw negative negative negative. Last night at work, I spoke with my higher power, and meditated I guess. I was soon able to see positives from this weekend. For one thing, she got into a fight with OM. She was upset enough that she was going to get her things and move out. This is a good thing, even though she changed her mind. If there is one fight, another may soon follow. Another good thing was that I was able to talk to her without love busting, and let her know how I feel about some things. It doesn't matter if she seemed to understand or appreciate what I said. She heard it, and some of it may sink in.

We are supposed to meet at her lawyer's office on Thursday morning. I believe that if we cannot walk out with an agreement, then the judge will need to be involved. She insists that if she cannot have our son, she will kill herself, but that is just her way of trying to get me to give in. She has really gone out of her way to convince me that her last attempt was sincere. As if she thinks I don't believe that she really wanted to die.

I just don't know what my lawyer will say. He understands my position. I don't want my son in that man's house. I'm not sure that it is good for my son to be around his mother right now, even if they are alone. He has been so aggressive since she was here. Perhaps it was the tension. If I cannot stop the court from letting her take him there, I will fight to keep OM and his entire family away from my son. I cannot imagine that OM will enjoy having to vacate his own home every other weekend to accommodate my son.

The other issue is money. I don't want to have to pay her any money as long as she lives with OM. I would like to try and make any money contingent on her moving back to the area, but I don't know if that is possible. I could find myself financing her affair even if she does come back to town. Still the move would be a blow to the affair. Perhaps it could be a chance worth taking.

As for documenting things, I am terrible about it. I finally decided that this thread documents all of the important things that have happened, and I will use it to prepare my case. I haven't actually been making alot of offers to see our son. I have left an open invitation to come anytime she wants.

If she thinks that she hates me now, she will probably really hate me Thursday. I don't like to see this happen, but I knew from the beginning that there was only one way for us to remain friends, and that is to remain married.

I will protect my son at all cost.

I just got back from her lawyer's office. I walked in to sign a separation agreement, and I almost walked out divorced.

She is pushing to simply end the marriage, and there is little I can do about it. I could drag my feet, and try to stall, but right now I don't see the point. Her lawyer said that since the divorce is almost final I should go ahead and let WW have our son in OM's house for visitation. I refused to allow that to happen. WWL said that we don't have an agreement and I can't stop WW from taking him there. I said "Oh yes I can". My lawyer stepped in and said we'll schedule a hearing and I can explain to the judge why I won't let him go there, and we will probably be divorced before the hearing anyway.

Sounds like all I have to do is take on about $2500 in credit card debt, and give her $16000 and we are history. She is not fighting for custody. She will let me have our son and take visitation. I cannot believe that she would give her son up so easily. I really don't want to believe that she would do this to her son.

I know that it isn't really about the OP, but that SOB has some major influence on her, and is taking advantage of a sick person. I am beginning to think my mom is right. All he wants is our money. When he's done spending it, she will probably be history as well. I thought to myself, when the money is gone, and OM don't want nothing to do with WW anymore, I won't tell her "I told you so"

I spent 2.5 hours with my IC last night. She only charged me for an hour. She helped me alot. She told me something, and I remembered that it is on my tokens. To thine own self be true. She also helped me to find a way to stop giving WW my power. I do that way too much, and it only makes me feel bad. I understand that I still need to forgive myself for some of the things in our life that I feel guilty about. Guilt is a usless feeling.

As I was pulling up this site, my WW calls me, and wants to come over and get some of her stuff. I do not want to see her right now. I am angry, and I am tired. I need to go to bed. I said no, and she tried to make me feel guilty. Didn't work, I don't need any useless feelings today.

Gale, maybe this is a blessing in disguise. I think she is so unstable right now that she couldn't possibly take care of him. So, if you can get out this easily and have full custody, would it be better to get it while the getting is good? Am so sorry that it came to this.

But I think you are right, that once she spends through the money her affair will crumble and she will have nothing left. That is when she will hit bottom and finally wake up.

The affair is already crumbling. I had a good 24 hours to deal with accepting the divorce idea. I went through the roller coaster of emotion at work last night. I prayed alot, and I believe that I was on my way to accepting the situation, and looking at the bright side of things. So, of course, I had to get a phone call today from WW. As I suspected, the relationship hasn't been very good. She doesn't want to be there, but she doesn't want to come home either. She just don't know what to do. I knew that he couldn't keep her on that pedestal forever, and that when it started to crumble, reality would start to creep in.

She called me this afternoon, and I really didn't want to talk to her. I was in an angry stage at the time, and I couldn't help but let her know how I feel about a few things. I wasn't trying to hurt her feelings, just telling her that she is getting what she wants, so why call and try to make me feel bad. First, she wanted to know if she can come see our son tomorrow. I said sure. Then she wanted to talk to me about everything that is going on. After I calmed down a little, I started talking to her about what I believe she needs to do if she is ever going to find the happiness that she is seeking.

I went right back to what I said last summer about how if she gets this man out of her life completely, she will start to see things in a different light. She doesn't believe that she could ever love me again. I said that she shouldn't worry about that. Getting him gone, and getting over him is the first priority. Then, I told her, we can make an effort to save our family. I wasn't being pushy with her, just trying to get it through to her that I am probably the only true friend that she has, and I want to help her.

She has a major problem with me. She can talk to me fine on the phone, but when she gets in the same room with me the anxiety is almost too much to bear. I told her that if she doesn't put so much pressure on herself, and simply tries to be a friend, those feelings could ease.

I am not about to beg her to come home. I am concerned for her. I love her, and I want to help. We got off the phone, and a little while later she called back. She said that OM had called her, and said that he is going to "take off". Said that she can stay there as long as she wants, but he is going away. I don't fully understand what is going on, but I told her to just start packing her stuff. She said she was. I haven't heard from her since. They are quite possibly making up right now, and she could act as if our conversation never happened. I don't know.

My mom is not happy with me for even entertaining the idea of giving my WW a chance. I told her not to worry, as I don't have my hopes up, and I am not going to let her take advantage of me. She can stay here for a few nights if she needs to, but until OM is gone, she can't come home even if she wants to. I really don't know what will happen. I have decided that by Monday morning I will know whether I will divorce her, or we will try to recover.

I pray for God's will in my life, and the power to carry it out.

You promise not to leave your home for her again, ok? You just accommodate her insanity when you allow her to push you out of your own home.

I am thinking you are pretty close to Plan B, Gale. She is able to hang onto the remaining scraps of her affair because she knows in the back of her mind that you are there to catch her. You are still meeting a few needs of hers, but she won't know that until it stops. When it stops, the OM will expected to meet all her needs and that will likely be the last straw because he is surely sick of this crap. I don't think this affair is long for the road at all, but as long as you are there for her, she can hold out a little longer.

We could very well be divorced by the end of the week. I want to go PlanB immediately, but I won't be able to completely as all of her stuff is still here. Although, I will probably make an arrangement for my parents to be here, and I won't be when she get's her stuff.

I am hoping to make it clear that if we divorce, I intend to have nothing to do with her ever again. I intend to do a permanent PlanB. I am going to attempt to get that point across this weekend. By Monday the ball will be in her court. If she doesn't agree to NC, and working on the marriage, I will pursue the divorce with gusto. I am not getting any younger, and it has been way to long since anyone has thought about MY needs.

I guess I should say that until there is a significant other in my life, the door would probably be open to a change of heart on her part. It will have to be a total effort on her part though. I will not expect it, nor will I have my hopes up.

I have prayed about this, and I feel that this is the right thing to do. I will follow it up with a PlanB letter, but since the time is short, it will have to be delivered orally right now. I hope I can make her understand that if she doesn't end the affair now, I will have nothing to do with her after this weekend. I need to do this for me. I have to move on with my life, and concentrate on what is best for myself, and my son.

We were kids when we met each other. She was thirteen, and I was fifteen. I met her in line for a roller coaster. You would think that something special brought us together. You would think that perhaps we should have some special purpose for being together. I don't know. I really hate to end a relationship that has lasted for 26 years. I have loved her and I have hated her. I have been kind to her, and I have been cruel. I really hoped that we could have the opportunity to do it right for a change.

Oh, and don't worry. I will not leave my house for her anymore. I will not feed the insanity anymore.

Gale,

Protect you and your son at this time nothing else matters. She will have to experience life on her own and with OM to figure out the grass may not be greener on the other side.

We could very well be divorced by the end of the week.

Why would this divorce happen so quickly? Couldn't you give Plan B a little time before divorcing?

Her attorney is pushing really hard to just finalize everything. The motivating factor being that I will not allow my son to go to OM's house. Once the divorce is final, I will no longer be able to prevent her from taking him there, so she must have decided to just get it over with. I don't know that it will go as smoothly as they think. I do not like the wording of the dissolution agreement. I am certain that we will run into a few problems getting everything settled.

If the divorce goes through, I will do my best to prepare my son for what is coming. If she stays with OM, my son will have to visit every other weekend. I will not be able to prevent this.

Until then, I have done my best to make it clear to her that I will not be a part of her life at all if we divorce. She has held onto the idea that we will somehow come out of this as friends, and I am trying to get it through to her that I am done. It's PlanB until the divorce, and then total black out for the rest of our lives.

I will have to move on, and I am angry at her for that. I am prepared for moving on though. It has been a long time since I had someone that cared about me, and I am tired of waiting. If she is not willing to try, then I will just get busy living my life without her. This limbo has to end. So I will not try to slow down the divorce. I filed three months ago without the intention of taking it all the way. I am glad I did, as it allowed me to protect my son from the affair for this long. The affair is not in good shape, and I believe that she will really think about what she is doing.

I told her last night that I won't have anything to do with her after the divorce. She called me after she left, and told me that she would like to talk to our MC. I don't know if she is trying to buy time from me or not, but I am PlanB starting tomorrow. Regardless of her decision. I will end PlanB when she comes home, and agrees to NC.

Gale, Plan B is a whole lot more than just giving her the cold shoulder. It is COMPLETE seperation with absolutely no contact at all. Otherwise, it defeats the purpose and ruins your credibility in the bargain.

If you say you are cutting off communication, then you must be prepared to do that. Staying in contact to communicate visitation schedules will not work. So, before you go into Plan B, you have to iron out the visitation issues and designate an intermediary who can pass on any CRITICAL communications.

Secondly, this has to be entered via a Plan B letter. The plan B letter is critical to this phase, otherswise it just looks like you are giving her the cold shoulder; ie:punishing her. You do not want to give that message.

Rather, you want to tell her that you love her, but that her actions are eroding your love for her. Tell her you know you contributed to the problems in the marriage and, most importantly, give her a path back to your marriage. You tell her what she needs to do to unlock the door back into your marriage. Those conditions would be the end of her affair, end of all contact with OM, and a committment to repairing your marriage. In your case, your W needs counseling so that would be a condition.

So, please don't jump into Plan B. I think you should go into Plan B, but don't do it unless you are committed to doing it perfectly. Otherwise you just cause more harm than good. Many people try to cut corners on Plan B and it almost always fails and they end up living in misery. I just don't want you to have to go through that.

Here is a very good Plan B letter that will give you a good idea of what constitutes Plan B:

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/sho...rue#Post1143897

Thank you for the link. I did start writing the PlanB letter yesterday. I hoped to get it finished, but I ran out of time before I went to work. So, I obviously am not quite yet in PlanB. Believe me, I will heed your advise, and try to do it right. Whenever I talk to her, she seems to get the wrong idea about what I am saying, and I want to make it as clear as I can in the letter. I am rereading the section in SAA about PlanB, and I will make my best effort. I do want to give her every opportunity to change her mind, and I am afraid that she thinks I just want her out of my life.

I said that I would know if I would divorce or work toward recovery. I guess it comes down to I am going forward with the divorce, and still hoping for recovery. She thinks that I will have nothing to do with her after the divorce, as I have told her that if our marriage ends like this, we cannot be friends. In reality, I know that actually getting the divorce is not going to make me stop loving her. I know that the door is still open, and I would welcome her back in a heartbeat. At the same time, the divorce will open the door for me to allow someone else in. So is it really PlanB if I start dating? Not that I have any prospects, but like I said, I am not getting any younger. I know that I won’t be ready to start dating right away, and I will just have to trust God to lead me in the direction he wants me to go.

She has figured out my screen name, and I guess she is reading my posts. I had hoped that if she ever read them, she would be in the frame of mind to understand the spirit in which they were written. I really wish she would write her own post. I wish she would reach out to someone for help. She thinks that everyone is here about hating wayward spouses, and we are all here for our witch burnings.

Since I am not officially in PlanB, I spoke to her when she called me today. I guess I was making a last ditch effort to reach her. It is hard to talk to her and tell her what I think without it sounding like a lot of disrespectful judgments. I did my best to get the point across that I love her, and I want to help. But I cannot have any more to do with her as long as OM is in the picture. She thinks that I want to make her move back, and live under my thumb. She doesn’t find the prospect attractive. She says that she ought to go ahead with the divorce, take the money and establish a home for herself and our son, then wean herself off of OM. I told her she can’t wean herself off of OM any better than I can wean myself off of alcohol. It must be a clean break, quick and sharp. I do want to help, but I can’t if she won’t let me.

So, it looks like it is onward toward divorce. I am sick about it. But, I will take whatever comes my way. I will face it like a man, and I will pray that she does the right thing. For all of us.

Gale,

Would you mind sending me an email. I have some information to share with you.

Thanks.

BK

I swear, a man can't get a moments peace in this world. I wrote a planB letter last night. It is far from perfect, and I will not send it yet. I want to get it right.

So, I get woke up today by the phone. My WW wants to share with me that she has decided to move back to our town. It appears that some of what I have been saying is making sense to her. I am very happy to hear that she wants to come back and be with our son. I am happy that she has decided to move out of OM's also. She told me that she wants us to be friends, but she thinks that we should go ahead with the divorce. She feels that is the only way that she won't have to live by my "rules". Since she will be living here in town, she wants to be the primary custodian of our son, and share custody much like we did after she moved out, and before the affair came to light. She thinks that by doing this she can take care of her problems, and heal herself. Then, I don't know.

I listened carefully. I wanted to understand what exactly she was saying. I listened, and like I said, I was very happy about her decision. She never once mentioned OM. When we finally brought him up in the conversation, she insisted that she believes that she needs this man in her life right now. She has some notion that she is learning something from him. She is not willing to give him up, and thus the affair continues.

She promised that she would keep him away from our son, even after the divorce, as she said she doesn't believe that he belongs in our son's life right now. Yet she thinks he belongs in hers.

Now, I have not implemented PlanB. I have not sent her the letter, and I have not withdrawn. I had decided that I would go ahead with the divorce, and I am OK with that decision. I told her a long time ago that we cannot be friends if our marriage ends because of this affair. I believe this to be true. That's not to say that if the affair would end, even after the divorce, that I would not allow her to attempt a reconciliation. I also told her just this weekend that if OM remains in her life, then I will have to be out of her life.

So, she has made a step toward doing the right thing, yet she is still insisting on her addiction. I can understand. I have done the same thing many times with my drinking. I would try to give and give in all other aspects, but I would NOT give up the beer.

I suggested that we go back to simply getting a separation agreement instead of the divorce. I told her this because I will not willingly give her primary custody of our son as long as this affair continues. As long as the affair continues, she is not considering our son's best interest. She is not doing what is best for him. She said that without the divorce, she won't have the money to move back. I suggested that possibly the money could be allocated for that purpose. I also told her that if we get into a custody dispute, that money could well be burned up by the lawyers.

If she comes back to town, I will be happy to let him live with her part of the time. I work third shift, and he would be better off sleeping at his mother's house than sleeping at my mother's house. I want him to be with his mother. I still believe that I am considering his best interest though. And for that reason, I believe that I should have the decision making authority. So, we are not going to have a simple, problem free divorce. This could take some time. Another good argument to get the separation agreement.

Needless to say, she wasn't too happy with me by the end of the conversation. She told me that she had hope when she called me, and I took that away from her. I don't know what to say to her. I want her to come back, but I am not going to support the affair in any way. I will abide by what the court tells me to do, but other than that, I am working with a higher authority.

She doesn't want to live by my rules. What are my rules? End the affair. Get OM out of her life completely. Work with me to save our family. That's about it. She needs to understand that she cannot have us both.

Gale

Please don't fall for this....."She promised me this and that..." She's a liar. Repeat a liar..

Here's the truth.

She's moving back to use you, to get you to lower your guard, to get custody of your children so that she can marry OM and have him raise them except for a couple of weekends per month, and use your money that you mail once per month. I don't believe her for one minute. She may even pretend to halt the affair for court purposes (I think this is why she is moving out of OM's house and closer to children by the way).

You said "she wasn't happy..." Of course not, you didn't go along with her little plan to turn you into a check writing, weekend daddy.

Don't believe anything she says, period!!!!!!!!!!!

H&P,

As I ruminated about our conversation, I thought to myself that this very well could be a big manipulation ploy. At the same time, I can't help believe that she is sincere in alot of what she said. Basically, my take on it is that she is still lying to herself. She admits that she is sitting on the fence. I have been making it clear to her that I am not going to continue playing this game, and she isn't sure that she wants me out of her life. She just doesn't want to give up OM. I don't know what she thinks she is getting, but she insists that she needs him in her life right now. I said fine, but if he is in her life, I am out. This must be one of those "rules" that she can't live with.

If she insists on having him in her life, it is easier for me if she stays where she is at. Of course I can't count on her to want to make my life any easier.