nb, if you are looking for me to "judge" you, I can't. That is between you and God.

I CAN comment, but that's bit risky without knowing your situation better. I would tend to think from what you wrote, that your's may have been much more along the lines of a "prodigal son" sort of thing, but then I don't know the details of the original marriage or what caused the divorce.

Mys, I have extremely conservative views on this in general, but I would still advocate your sister leaving him.

My approach would be to:

A) Separate but not divorce.
B) Divorce but not remarry, unless it later became clear that there were biblical grounds for not reconciling, ie adultery or abandonment of a believer by an unbeliever.

Either way, she should not stay, IMO.

If her husband is going to let God work in his life, and if the family is later going to be together again, that is fine. God can work on him just as well with your sister in a safe, happy place.

Leaving does not mean giving up, or ceasing to pray for him and the health of the marriage.

Well, we could go off on this tanget, but perhaps we might want to wait until this discussion about Marriage, Divorce and Re-marriage runs its course. Or you could start a thread dedicated to that subject as an alternative.

Nah. Don't really need to discuss it.

But I do agree with you. We need to keep this thread all about HALO. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

No FH, I'm not looking for you to judge me...

And the prodigal son is... pretty much how I see myself... except I guess I'd be a daughter. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

And by the way... I'm not anywhere near "there" yet in my Walk... I've never lost my faith entirely, but I've been tip-toeing around the edges of what I believe for a long time. *I* pulled away, not God.

Also, FH, why don't you men start a study on Power of a Praying Husband?

Some of us ladies (grammar is wrong but you know what I mean) are beginning Power of a Praying Wife.

Wouldn't it be cool for the Christian men of the forum to be praying for their wives while the women were praying for their husbands? Imagine the energy that would create! Plus, they're just excellent books... and it totally leaves the OUTCOME to God, which I have trouble with myself... and I bet others do, too. What do you think?

I do not see how this is relevant to the question I asked you... I would still like you to answer that question.
I will answer yours though since it is the crux of my point.
Completely covering if they are repented. If not, they are not forgiven.... which is why I asked you the above question.

MEDC - not only is it relevant, it is THE question concerning sin and how God sees a person is, or becomes, a believer and repents of the sin.

So the answer to your scenario and question, "And if in fact..as you say.. "perhaps" it could happen does their repenting not mean turning away from the sin of adultery that they commit every time they lay with their A spouse" is that they don't commit adultery every time they lay with their forgiven spouse. God cannot both forgive the sin AND hold the sin as continuing to occur after He has forgiven. The sin is covered by the blood of Christ and the sinner is seen as "white as snow." Understand that this repentance is NOT a "run of the mill" 'I'm sorry' sort of thing. It is a heartfelt repentance that is sincere and profound. It is "throwing oneself on the mercy of the Lord, bereft of any reason to be forgiven other than the application of what Jesus did FOR us.

One would surmise that if such a repentance took place, the forgiven would NOT repeat the same "mistake" again and would, instead, be concentrating on becoming more "Christ-like" each day.

Without acceptance of Jesus as Lord and Savior and without repentance of their sin, they would remain in a reprobate state, as do all who do not accept Jesus Christ.

I hope that answered your question. If not, ask again or rephrase it to highlight what you want to be addressed.

God bless.

Yes FH But many would contend that remaining in an adulterous relationship is indicative of a lack of such repentance.

FH, I am going to respectfully disagree. I do not believe that a sin is forgiven without a person asking for forgiveness and repenting. We are talking about a Christian here acting complete disobedience to God. I believe that until they decide to comply with God's commands that they are not forgiven... they may be saved... but they are not forgiven until they repent and turn away from the sin. The sin is not covered by the blood of Christ until the person confesses it AND repents... and a wise person (you) once explained to me that forgiveness required repentance.
So, I know you are very learned about these issues, but I am going to respectfully disagree with you. The Bible to me is very clear about adultery and a person is commanded to turn from the sin...if it required the blood of Christ to wash it clean... it is a sin and should be turned from.
Now, a non Christain A couple... that finds their way to God AFTER their M... I see that another way.
Anyway, thanks for the post and information. I appreciate the time you have taken to respond to me.

exactly.

FH, I like your example and comparison of pregnancy where the child was conceived in sin. Very applicable… After my brother and his GF became pregnant and the baby was born out of wedlock, my father felt (and even said) that the child is ‘illegitimate’ and that he doesn’t recognize the child as his grandchild. I said to my father that no baby born in this world is, was or will ever be ‘illegitimate’…that every child is precious in God’s eyes…no matter the circumstances and even if a child was conceived in sin and a result of the parent’s fornication... Such a child is innocent and pure, because it’s the parents who did wrong and disobeyed God’s commandments…the child had nothing to do with it and still doesn’t…even if the parents don’t repent and decide to continue living sinful lives.

I understand what you are saying and it is very common when viewed from the perspective of "what would I require" rather than what God requires. What the position you are stating would indicate is that God's forgiveness is "conditional" upon our works, our "doing something" to "merit" forgiveness. That is where I differ in my understanding of God's forgiveness. God forgives NOTHING because of anything we do to merit His forgiveness. It is a "gift of grace and mercy" on behalf of Jesus Christ and what HE did for us. Christ is the one who "merits" in God's eyes, and it is applied to us when we accept Jesus as our Lord and Savior and when we confess, repent, and ask for forgiveness based upon what Jesus has already done for us.

IF sin were NOT covered by the blood of Jesus, there would be NO remission of sins and we would remain lost in our sins and on our way to He11.

What people "contend" is, in large measure, irrelevant because they cannot see, as God can and does, the HEART. God knows if the repentance of sin is real or not and God knows if one IS a believer in Jesus Christ and not merely "sounding some words to fool themselves and others."

God bless

MEDC - Okay, I'm a bit confused because I agree with this. I always have, and as you stated, I have so stated many times previously. So what is it that you are "disagreeing" with?

You seem to be hypothesizing that two believers committed adultery with each other, divorced their previous spouses, then married each other, and after all of that they finally "heard" God and repented of the sin. THEN, in order to "make it right," they are supposed to commit another sin and divorce each other as some sort of "work" on their part to "earn" forgiveness.

That's not how forgiveness works, imho. You don't commit a sin to "atone" for a previous sin.

There ARE consequences that will attend the original sin that they may have to live with for the rest of their lives, but God is not in the business of telling someone to commit a sin in order to "pay for" the forgiveness of the previous sin.

One more time, though, I am going to say that such a scenario as you presented is highly unlikely in that TWO believers would go through all of that without being convicted of their sin before they married. It is far more likely that they may have "thought" of themselves as Christians, but in fact they never were. That is the point that Jesus makes that there will be many who "think" they have been Christians but who He will tell "away from me you evildoers, I NEVER knew you." Christ's "never" knowing someone MEANS that they never were a true believer and were living in self-deception.

If that is the case, then you last scenario about two unbelievers coming "at last" to know the Lord would be applicable.

God bless.

I disagree. I think it happens and I think it happens with people that have back slid... but I think it happens with a great frequency and I do not believe for a minute that it is only those that were not truly saved.



I never said they had to "earn" their forgiveness... I said their sins would not be forgiven without repentance. I think you are missing the point that I and others have made here that turning away from sin would require them to stop committing adultery in a marriage that is an abomination.

I do not think we are going to see eye to eye on this... we can agree to disagree. For me, God's commands are clear.. I do not think ending a marriage that is an abomination would be a sin...not in the least. I think continuing in that M while clearly committing adultery is the sin. I can see your point, I just do not agree that is accurate.

We seem to be in agreement on the "new" Christians.

Again, thanks for the time you have taken on this.

MEDC and FH...

Both of you are speaking at a very big section of the study. I worked on some of it last night. So, I wont go into this except maybe to say to hold off a little on this until I bring in the point that this study makes concerning this. It may illuminate this a little more!

I will again give a little push toward what it is saying, and how it applies to what you guys are discussing...by saying that the key to all of this is two words: covenant and death.

I head back to typing now! And watching everyone's posts with great interest. I am learning a lot here.

I look forward to seeing the fruits of your studies.
This entire thread has been a blessing.

That is most definitely NOT what I am saying and you know it. You clearly do not understand what I am saying at all or you choose to deliberately misrepresent it.

My requirements are not at issue here. I am interested in what God requires and we clearly differ on our views of that. I believe God requires repentance - turning away from the sin. Hard to do that when you are in an adulterous affair marriage without leaving that "marriage"

myschae,

If it's a genuine question, try asking it here: http://forums.catholic.com/

With prayers,

Mortarman,



I am adopted and would very much like to discuss this topic with you further in depth..outside of this thread and outside the other issues that led me to this board. I know there has been a lot of debate and discussion regarding my life and situation. All of you are entitled to your opionions and I do fully understand exactly how and why my mere presence is such an affront to many BS everywhere.

If there are some who would like to discuss this further and are really interested in trying to at least understand my complex situation I am willing to give it a try. I was hurt by many comments here and I am not in any way saying that I do not deserve to be hurt. I am painfully aware of the hurt that I have caused other people in my life and for what it is worth I have sincerely apologized to all of those (well at least I think all I know of) that I have hurt as a result of my sinful behavior.

One wise poster I cannot remember which seemed to pick up on a sense of detachment in me. This keen poster saw something I am not sure how but they did. They recognized at the time of my last posting that I was borderline suicidal. Just because someone contemplates suicide doesn't mean as in my case they would actually kill themself. I felt like it yes...but I have children and family and no matter how much I may hurt they are never to be punished in that way.

At 17 my BF of a couple of months shot himself in the head and died. That was almost 21 years ago. It still struggle with understanding how a beautiful 18 year old boy with so much potential could do this. It nearly destroyed me. At 17 I thought if I tried to put myself in his mindset it would help me to understand. It wasn't a wise decision. What I have learned over the years is that suicide is not a viable option. It leaves behind so much brokeness that requires a lot of fixing and some of the damage cannot ever be completely repaired. Everytime I find myself thinking of this I think of his mom. My pain is trivial when I think of what his mother had to endure.

My reason for bringing this up and this isn't to ask anyone to behave anyway other than the way they feel is really right for them is just to say one thing...you really never know how much your words can hurt another person. None of us really knows just how fragile the person on the other end of the keyboard is. We just don't know.

I understand that there are many here who feel that they not only can't but shouldn't help me. I understand and respect your decision. Please know that I am really trying here. I am not expecting anyone to like me or my situation. I don't like me or my situation right now either. And for the record I never said I was justified in having an A. I was NOT. I was wrong...I never thought it was right or okay. I am living with the consequences of my sins. How this will all turn out only God knows that.

And yes, I do believe in God..have I always listened to him? No, it is painfully obvious that I was so far away from God for a long time. Many things have happened in the course of my life that have caused me to question God and because God is willing to look after even one lost sheep he has the infinite wisdom to never give up on us...never write us off as permanently defective goods.

For much of my life I felt subhuman and certainly not worth anything. God has taken care of me more than I deserve. It is my sincere hope that someday with a lot of work that I can become a better person.

Jilly