Jen - thanks for starting this thread. I believe it has value for all.


In my case, all the signs were there before the A became physical, but I chose to believe that my wife would stay faithful. Silly me, huh?

I am one of those who wanted details - not a blow-by-blow, minute-by-minute breakdown, but what, where and when. It took a month after D-Day to get all the details out from the first trip. I consistently asked MP to tell me everything at once, put it all on the table, and let me decide what to do, but she wouldn't.

I actually have a list of questions that I still want either answers to or confirmation of existing answers. I add to it occasionally as something crosses my mind.

At some point I will ask them - once I feel that I have a very real chance of getting an honest answer. We're a lot closer to that point than we were even 3 months ago, but I'm not yet ready to ask the questions.

Why the delay? Two-fold, for me.

One, NC has only been solid (from what I can tell and verify) for 2 months. Last time we talked at any length about the A, it really set MP back and brought forth a lot of feelings for OM that she thought had gone away. So I'm willing to wait for my answers while she goes through withdrawal/dis-engagement whatever you want to call it.

Two, honesty is on the rise and trust is being rebuilt. However, it's not where I want it to be yet (but getting closer), and I'd rather get through the questions in one sitting (if possible - I don't have many) than to ask them over and over (again).

Truth be told, I feel there's a very good possibility that when I reach the point where I am ready to ask the questions, some or all of them may not matter anymore and won't be worth asking.

In general, I agree that the BS should be given all the information he/she asks for, even if they regret asking/knowing later. I also think, within the scope of recovery, that the BS should answer any and all questions the WS has (if any), even though they may not be A-related (that whole Radical Honesty thing <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />).

Just 2 pennies from someone who hopes to become a MB success story <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Thanks, Mimi!

And I'd like to add that, just because a FWS here does not yet "get" the radical honesty thing, does not mean they are being vindictive, cruel, stupid, or outright intentionally selfish. And I think Kiwi was saying, it doesn't help to throw those truths forcefully at a FWS.

If someone told me that NOW, I would agree and wouldn't be at all insulted by the truth. But BACK THEN, the walls would go up, and I would defend myself tooth and nail. I didn't get it. But that didn't mean I was a horrible person.

NOW

I agree

Can you see, (I use "you" in general here, for those who do not feel they need to season their words with salt) then, why some FWs get defensive in response to some posts concerning this issue? And why some posts are seen as attacks, even if they aren't intended that way? Sometimes it's better to sneak around through the back door rather than trying to barge in through the front. KWIM?

PEP,

I'll ask it anotherway:

Are ALL the reasons a BS stays in the marriage UNselfish reasons? Are there ANY selfish reasons involved?


I'm not sure what you mean by wanting to discuss what works vs what is unlikely to work....with regards to what?
I must be missing something, or we aren't on the same page! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

I know what love is...

I see it every day here on MB...

Strangers reaching out to others in need...

Helping one another learn...

To heal and to grow...

With honesty, acceptance, patience and truth...

THAT is love.

KM

NOW:

How are YOU defining SELFISH?

as in reasons for the BS to stay in the marriage?

Mimi,

I guess reasons like :

So people won't pity them.
So they still have a wife around to cook and clean.
So they won't hurt because they lost the person that made them feel loved.
So they won't lose a crapload of money.


I mean, I read a lot of complaining from BS regarding things they have lost when their marriage didn't recover, mostly material and comfort things....so I wonder if those aren't some of the same things other BS want to stay in the marriage for. Make sense?
I am just curious, and want to know if it is ever ok to be selfish in a marriage.

NOW

Are ALL the reasons a BS stays in the marriage UNselfish reasons?

NO !

Are there ANY selfish reasons involved?

YES !

Pep

Pep,

....then is it OK to be selfish in marriage? Or is it just a reality, a fact of life so to speak? A Union where two people are trying their best to recover, become whole again, stumbling and falling, getting up and trying over and over again? Or is the success or failure of a marriage dependent upon whether or not one or both partners are being selfish( or not) at any given time over any given thing?

I know what I believe. And I'm still married!

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Probably hanging myself here, but I can understand very well what Jen is saying.
Maybe you have to have been a WS to see it from that view.

I also have to admit there were very selfish reasons I did not want to give my H any details, but there were also the real and genuine reason of not wanting to hurt him any more either.
I really had done enough of that.

but in the end it wasn't my choice about giving details if I wanted my M and in hindsight that is as it should be.

The thread's gone off on a tangent but I'm fine with that. It's usually from the digressions you learn the most, just like in a work meeting.

I'll give an analogy (or is that a metaphor Todd? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />)

You are on a train that blows up. The person next to you is scattered all over the carriage. Afterwards the person's wife says "you saw my husband die. Was it painful, did he suffer?"

You say, "no he died without a mark on him." Is that self preservation or not wishing to inflict further hurt?

Do you see what I'm saying?

NOW,

I think there is a difference between taking care of yourself and being selfish.

After a horrible week at work, I might need to sneak off into a bubble bath and read a book. I might not want to deal with taking care of the dog, which I normally do. I might also not feel like reading the first draft of H's master's thesis. I just might need some time to take care of myself, so I can later be better equipt to take care of others.

If I make my H upset because he has to take care of the dog and stop the work he was doing... and if he really wanted me to read his paper and help correct it before he turned it over to his advisor... would that be considered selfish on my part?

Or is that part of the give and take of a M?

Have you ever been in a situation like the trainwreck?

Even to this day, I regret not knowing all the DETAILS of my F's death.

People say he died SUDDENLY..INSTANTLY..but are they telling me the truth?

I have the same perspective regarding other TRAUMAS that I have experienced....

There must be some healing that comes from knowing the DETAILS..

Don't know why....

Mimi, it WAS just an analogy. I was trying to think of something that I hoped noone had experienced IRL. If you have experienced this, I sincerely apologise. I have learned from MB and I'm sure it's done in counselling now that details help you heal. There was always the feeling that more detail would hinder recovery whereas now I think that counselling recommends all details.

We were told by hospital staff that my father died peacefully in his sleep in hospital. We weren't there, it happened too suddenly. Personally, that's the way I want to believe it.

I bumped my old thread up ... "Harley is a smart man"

coz

it pretty much addresses what I have come to believe about selfishness and sacrifice in a marriage

what works and what does not

and why

Pep <~~~ see you there

Yea...I was thinking this, too.

Katie,

I don't know...it is confusing. But I wonder, is selfishness many times just a perception?

As in your example, if your husband did not need anything from you at the time, he would most likely not see your wanting time to yourself as selfish.

But the minute he wanted something from you , he would then see you as being selfish for taking that bath. You have just put your own needs ahead of his. (In his eyes)
And then you might see him as being selfish for expecting you to put his needs first!

So yes, I would say it's the give and take that goes with the territory. Everything is not always going to be even stevens. There will be times when one of you is giving much more than the other. But ideally, the one receiving recognizes this and when he/she is able, will tip the scales back toward the other.

NOW

Thanks, PEP.... i saw that a week or two ago, and read a tiny bit and thought, "Why have I never seen this before? This is great!" But I didn't get very far....I'm just far too busy most times to spend time posting and reading much here. But I will get over there and read.

Earlier this week I was caught between a cow and a hay-rack, so today I just felt like doing nothing....and here I am!


NOW

It is CONTROLLING.

If they ask you for details of information about THEIR LIFE that you have - what gives you the right to decide what someone else can/should/would want to/can reasonably handle?

Why does someone else not deserve to be able to deal with all the facts of their pain, rather than a sugar-coated version - particularly if YOU are the perpetrator?

How is this doing someone any favors - not letting them deal with reality???

Of course the WS mindset makes sense to WS's and also to FWS'S. They've been there! There are also other commonalities to the WS fog mentality - and selfishness is one of them.

It is very selfish to deny someone else the opportunity to CHOOSE and make DECISIONS about their own life based on fact.