WAT... read the above again... I said she does NOT need to throw him out...she was talking about asking him to leave.. I was talking her down from this.

Again, I will just say that I think we come from this from two different perspectives. As much as you think it is your responsibility to clear this up for this poster... she seems okay with my approach as well as yours.

MEDC is right- who can you expose to?

they don't work together, rigt?

you need to expose to his parents, siblings, friends, others who have influence with him,

If I were you, I'd go to the next event.

I bet a mom will come up to you to 'visit' but will drop some hints. Make sure they know you are aware, enlist their cooperation in keeping them apart.

not to belabor it..but you dont think i should wait just a bit longer to get more PI evidence? i worry that if i expose now, it will somehow come out that i HAVE a pi and that will make things more underground.

also, i know i have asked this before, but in this case (she is a single mom--never married, tho has some close family in town)who would you expose to on both his and her side? his sister knows, one of our mutual (H, OW and my) friends knows..but H and OW dont know that THEY know..so, is it best to mass email everybody?

and sorry to be so detailed, but what do you say exactly?? WAT brings up that point which i have worried about all along..if people think that only a PA is a real reason for concern, wont i look like an idiot emailing them? also, how do you let H and OW know you did that, esp if people blow you off and dont say anything??

this whole EA thing, while so destructive in my mind, is really "softer" than a PA, so gets me confused when you discuss handling affairs. i mean...how do you go up to the karate instructor (my H, the OW, our kids' TOTAL idol) and say..oh, btw..didja know my H and XX are having an INAPPROPRIATE RELATIONSHIP?? kinda sounds..uh..wimpy, dontcha think??

sss - Please try to set aside for now "proving" an EA.

Very hard to prove this to anyone especially a WS who's in it.

But you know it and we know it.

Instead, go to work on what you know and Plan A. Unless you immediately wanted a divorce, you'd do the VERY SAME THING if a PA was proven.

Heck, he'd likely deny a PA if you had pics of them kissing.

He'd deny a PA for lots worse.

Yes, it IS emotionally difficult. Very difficult. Been there.

So concentrate on your fixes to correct whatever bad juju you brought to the marriage - no matter how small. Become a better you. If you think you've fixed the bad contributions, then go to work on improving the not so bad ones.



IMHO, exposure should be completed before Plan A is completed. This gives the BS time to show that despite everyone knowing about the affair, the BS still wants to restore the marriage.

Obviously, you end Plan A and go to Plan B in the same motion.

But Plan B isn't an option, IMHO, until a physical separation has already occurred. In cases where a WS doesn't move out voluntarily of their own accord, the BS has to take legal action to make this happen. I think this is a last resort. - to be done only when the BS is absolutely near the end of their rope.

JMHO

WAT

I'm glad you are able to afford a PI.
But maybe you should consider what a lot of people here use -- a voice activated recorder.
That would capture all of their "in the car" conversations and provide you with exactly what the nature of these conversations are....

I am not in favor of waiting to expose... however, if you think that it is best to wait till you have more evidence, I would say go with your instincts.
As far as to whom you expose..allies. Anyone that can be an ally to your situation. That may inlcude people at the games... friends, family, etc. Any and evryone if necessary.
I would direct you back to the Harley's thoughts on this. You have said that you have spoken to the Harley's??? How do they suggest you proceed at this point?
As far as how to expose... I would do most of my exposing face to face when possible.

steve harleys response has been interesting..i have to say, and this makes me again (tho i know he probably did not mean it that way) but it *again* made me feel like, am i wrong here?

but when i spoke to steve wednesday, he said his hunch was this was recreational flirting..he did NOT specifically say no, its not an EA, but def agreed that since i was uncomfortable, it was inappropriate..then again, didnt have film then of inappropriate, and the more i hear from people, the more inappropriate i know it is..kiss or no kiss etc.

but basically the focus he keeps trying me to get is to get H to believe we CAN make our marriage better, wants him all in the books and to talk to him..i realize that Hs hopelessness with the situation is the root of this "EA" (now in quotes since i dont know WHAT i believe anymore)..and that he has somehow got to be "convinced" we can have love again. unfortunately, he does not..says, "i am not optomistic", "dont want to get your hopes up", "i dotn want to try"

nothing is more frustrating to me than, "I DONT WANT TO EVEN TRY"--since, WHAT do you do with THAT?? it is back to that "can one person save a marriage" question i brought up before (earlier post).

WAT: i guess what i have said w/o saying is, that i think in our situation, with his personality and mine...that exposure is coming a) with evidence in the next 2 weeks or so b) this will be, from where i sit now, the "end of my rope"--was almost completely there last night..dunno after a week on vacation..c) once he knows about exposure etc, that will be HIS final straw, being that he will be embarrassed, esp thinking NOTHING IS GOING ON..wtf is she THINKIN?? denial is a powerful thing, combined with ego..i think it will be the straw. but i hear here, that exposure is the key, so....

i guess what i am not getting tho you keep trying to splain it (bless your heart for the patience!)--is how you can expose something so "soft" as an EA w/o evidence, ESP since it is way less than a PA to lots a folks..(try one more time, somebody..)

LEXXY--got one, think youre right, gonna do it soon..just not sure i am technically gifted..my recordings are hard to hear..you an expert??

i worry too that really nobody (he has no parents now..sibs are away and not close) will care re; exposure..ever had that??

sss

sss - guess why I chose my MB name of "worthatry"?

Can you guess?

DING DING DING DING DING !!!!!

Right answer!!

Because my WS - who was NOT having an affair <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> - didn't even want to TRY to make our marriage better.

Sound familiar?

Me: You're having an affair with OM!

Her: I'm NOT having an affair!! I'm IN LOVE with OM, WHAT PART OF THAT DON'T YOU UNDERSTAND????

I have to assume that because you were speaking to Steve that you were able to communicate the situation with your H better than we can here by writing. I will not attempt to counter Steve's diagnosis.

But if it's "recreational flirting", an EA/PA isn't far behind. The simple fact that he doesn't want you around speaks volumes to me about its importance to him.

I understand your dilemma. I really do.

I think you have good logic to wait on better evidence before exposing further. One way to look at your case is that you're ahead of the game - if this is a pre-EA.

But there's nothing wrong about Plan A'ing in the meantime. Seek out filling those ENs. Take advantage of the vacation and knock his socks off. Be naughty. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

WAT

I am so sorry for your circumstances. I know the pain involved with an EA. You doubt yourself because there is nothing physical. You start to think that maybe you are being unreasonable,crazy,insecure,psychotic,etc.....I did the same thing with my H EA.
The OW told me that I was obviously way too insecure to be in a committed relationship. I actually let that stupid comment get to me! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />
Don't believe it. Even if there is nothing going on-your H is willingly putting himself in a very risky sitch at the VERY least. You are smart to step in and stop it now-rather than wait until it does turn into a PA.

If you are serious about saving this M, and stopping this affair- go to the sporting events.

I would drag 10 preschoolers along if I had to! Do not let this woman have unsupervised access to your vulnerable H. I liked the idea of a babysitter. Or just take them. You say it is inconvenient-well so is a D or an affair.

Save your family- go to the sporting events.

Great advice from WAT ...and seems to be going in the same direction as SH.

You're going to make yourself crazy...trying to "control" something you can't. The only thing you can control here is YOU.

Take back YOUR power... what can YOU do ? I know it seems like your hands are tied...but that's because you're looking in the wrong direction. It's extremely difficult to prove an EA... even with the intent of preventing it from getting to a full blown PA. Both are horrible intrusions on your M.

There is nothing and noone to expose right now. Let the PI earn his money...that's what you're paying HIM for right? Now what can YOU do...to make YOUR life more stable ?

You're basing all your "plans" on the result of being able to "prove" something. What if.... you aren't able to prove it???? This is a harsh reality. It very well could come down to that.

You can actually do more harm than good right now.

Start with YOU..what CAN you control.

start there.

I'm so sorry... hang in there.

I also second WAT's advice on Plan A. Have fun this week. Really try and just focus on him and help him enjoy the time you spend together. Remind him why he fell in love with you to begin with. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Also-DO BE NAUGHTY!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

thanks everybody for your continued advice.

i am going to try REALLY hard to be calm, loving, and plan a like heck this coming week. i sure hope nothing happens, since sometimes i feel like a bomb waiting to go off..he has pushed and pushed..hurt and hurt..and i feel weak next to you guys who do this for MONTHS..i just dont know if i have the fortitude to be good for my kids and take his junk..kwim? i dont know why, but it LITERALLY eats my gut when they go off to the sports thing.

i keep hearing about going to these events..i realize this is a HUGE problem..but i guess i am just a baby and i want to be the one going..my other 2 cannot maintain the quiet that this place demands during sessions..and we would have to get 3 sitters a week..i know i know..but i am just frustrated that logistically, it cannot happen. he wont LET me go..what do i do? hire a sitter for years, and show up? i am sure you will say yes, but i dont know...

i am sure i will get SHOT for this, but i feel like i am near the end..this guy says he doesnt love me, never HAS had emotional strength/fortitude of the kind to work on a hurting relationship..maybe why it has never been ideal. so, where would we be even IF i could cut them off? dunno..he quit counseling after 3 visits.

i do love him, but he is hurting me so much..words but more actions. blatant disregard for me and my feelings, AND his kids. maybe he needs a shock of reality...maybe he will be happier alone.

i think i will go on vacation and see..but try to amass evidence asap when we come back, since the iron will be hot. then, i am afraid..it might be time for an ultimatum. and if she wins, we all know, they dont win.

of course, then i lose. but am i not losing every day now?? what will be left of me?

sososad, hang in there. It is a day to day process. Try to do what you think is best according to the guidelines the Harley's suggest and any other helpful techniques that you may have. You're human. You may make mistakes, but just hang in there. I'm having a bout myself today and I've been here for months. Anyhow, I wish you the best.

OMG..how do you all handle all this DIRECT MEANNESS??

dunno if its EA, but seems like that could be the ONLY explanation for SUCH SUCH nastiness to me. and i am just such the sensitive type..never want to hurt feelings, and hate to have mine hurt..and OMG..he is being SO NASTY..comes and goes, but worse since *I* took my son to the OW (suspected) childs bday party today..seemed ok with it when we left, but my son got the 20 questions all about it when we got home, and he again seems to HATE MY GUTS..how do you all take this? how LONG to do you all take this..makes me physically ill. yellin at the kids too..just NASTY.

also, about how long does this take? gonna take my son to all of these events after vacation next week (had a big talk last night..he tried to say i was RIDICULOUS about this whole thing, but it was NO BIG DEAL when i asked WHY was it a big deal..) so fine, i am gonna take him. so PI now will have to help me know (as much as possible) NC, since he hasnt exactly agreed to that...

thoughts? how long am i in for?? what ELSE am i in for..nastiness has been since june..

thanks

Stay strong... he is trying to justify what he is doing by create an image of you that isn't real, he wants you to be nasty back to him so he can say see your nasty to me and I don't deserve that. You need to stay strong realize he is an alien its not the person you want to love that person is being held hostage on the mothership. You really need to get that in your head that will help in dealing with what he is saying he, because its not him its the alien.

how long, as long as you can handle the alien talk... that is six months or six days. But you need to decide save your marriage and do what it takes or prepare for separation and divorce that is your choice. His choice is to be a jerk

thanks for the response and encouragment.

holy COW..it is just soo amazingly nasty..like.what the HECK could i have done for you to act SOO ticked at me..so SUDDENLY..like a psycho MOOD SWING FROM [email]HE@(*$&*$LL..is[/email] this what you others have experienced..and HOW LONG did you manage??

man, that is what totally weakens me..you are right..i need to separate HIM from his actions/tones/facial expressions..but it is SOO HARD..

is this common? and..roughly..HOW LONG?? months?? geez..and, is this finally what pushed some of you over?? is it somehow a way to MAKE ME ask him to leave?? sure feels like it...

so..it has been a LOVELY morning..i dont know HOW you guys all do this..

have alot of you had a WS who is just incredibly nasty to you day in and out? OCCASIONALLY he lets up, but then, it is back by the next hour. did i read harley said the most acute part of this (if NC) is 3 weeks? he has been like this tho even WITH contact..almost like he WANTS me to ask him to leave..isnt tough enough to do it himself, OR, more likely he wants *ME* to look like the bad guy. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

reda some more of the stuff the Harley's post on here. You DO NOT have to put up with abuse...and I don't care if you are a BS or a FWS. That is not okay. So, if he is being abusive... find a way to express your hurt and to let him know that this behavior is not going to be tolerated any longer. Door mats are for wiping your feet.. let him treat you like one and apparently he is not enough of a man to not do so.

Dear sososad,

If you read up on the other posts you'll probably find that it always hurts to hear the foggy rantings of a WS.
It's pretty amazing what they come up with..
Even the WS, when they become a FWS, will find it incredible to realise what hurtful things they have done/said.

In your case, I dunno what Dr Harley would recommend...
But I would think that you need to be careful that your WH doesn't cross the line so much that if/when he gets his head out of the fog.. you will still WANT to be there for him.
There are limits to what you can put up with.
I'm a very gentle, easy-going, understanding person too..
But if people take it too far.. taking advance of my natural tendancy to "plan A" everyone all the time..
The door of my heart slams shut and there is NO WAY back in.
I have to be careful about this.

I would continue plan A, but start preparing Plan B.
If you never need Plan B - excellent.
But my guess is you'll feel stronger in sticking to your Plan A because you'll KNOW it has a time limit: you don't have to keep on putting up with it !
(((sososad))))