Yeah, I had to handle my business! LMAO

I hope you have a good day!

...going to my thread now! LOL

Hi HL,

Just catching up on your sitch. Glad the MC is making you feel better, but remember, until she sees her own P/A she will most likely continue the pattern. My FWH is at the recognition stage 4 yrs aftr D Day1, and it is a long job.

It seems we with P/A spouses need a couple of years longer for them to begin to see it and to be seen as P/A in MC, and then time for them to act on it. The up side is that we get lots of time to work on ourselves,

I will check in again.

SP

silver,

Thanks for checking in. Yes I realize this as well. I am waiting for the oportune time to bring it up in MC.

IMVHO it is starting to become apparent in the sessions in little ways. I have been alluding to it without saying the words.

I think MC is a double edge sword in a way. I feel great about myself and I feel validate as a single entity within the M. I do not feel as great and validated as a H. I don't know if that makes sense.

I guess I am at the point I felt undervalued by the FWW and that seems to be the case.

I also realize I am a much stronger person, one that has had to do some serious self examination and I don't necessarily like what I saw.

I have had the feeling that every thing I have asked for that has been refuted by the FWW was/is valid.

The real kick in the whole thing is that I would not be perfectly happy in the M with what she does for me but I could be happy if she just lowered her expectations based on what she will do for me.

In other words expect to get out what you put in. She has high expectations of me with low expectations of what she needs to put in.

Hi, HL! I want to let you know that I understand why you are so sure of yourself now. I "get it."

I understand that it's in knowing yourself that allows you to think more level headed knowing your beliefs, thoughts, and feelings. I have both you and LA to thank for that.

I'm not sure if I'm making the right move...nothing really...right now, but I feel that if I sit back that the answer will come to me...instead of me looking for the answer.

I know he doesn't get it, and I can't make him get it. LOL...I wish I could control my emotions a little better. Like when I first found out today...I instantly started shaking...and I actually thought...great back on the infidility diet again...nope, I ate fine at the party...even passed up the cake, though I did taste the icing...LOL...I had too!

Well, I didn't come to your thread to talk about me, so I hope that you are having a good weekend and you're preparing for HL DAY! LOL

Rin,

I have come to the place where I am now because I know that what is broken in our M is not me personally.

I will never say I am perfect or without fault. I will never say I deal with every situation perfectly.

What I do know is that I am a good person. I am a valuable person.

I too am at a crossroads. I love my FWW but I am really starting to question whether or not this will work.

It is nice being validated but that is a double edge sword. You mean to tell me my FWW continued down this path telling me I was wrong and we are now finding the root of the problem lies with her.

She has brought up my past in the MC sessions over and over. In our first session she went back 5 years about something I did wrong. LMFAO. You have to go back that far. But when I went over the recent past she interupted to tell the MC yes I did that but I haven't done it in 9 months.

Maybe someone can take out the 2x4 here for me.

HERE IS WHAT IS REALLY BUGGING ME. I did not ask for a lot from her post A.

Two things not to do.
1. Spend money. (we didn't have it)
2. Flirt with men. (no explanation needed)

Two things to do.
1. Buy me some cards everyonce in a while.
2. Dress up in lingerie for me.

She agreed to these things. Remebering this was based on the first truth about the A which is much different then what really happened.

In the last MC session when I brought this up she said well I don't like getting dressed up.

OK 2x4's please!!!!!!

When my FWW wanted plastic surgery she made the future promise to get dressed up. Got the surgery ummmm.

FWW spent much time getting ready for OM.

FWW wanted a baby doll. I said no because it will be worn once or twice then sit in the drawer. She told me she would so I spent a few hours and 4 stores to find one in her size. She wore it 3 times and it is now in her drawer.

Finally if 3 years ago she was HONEST with me and this is really an issue I certainly might have picked something else for her to do for me that makes me feel wanted and special.

But instead she says she will then doesn't then says it was because she doesn't like it.

I am struggling with this because I have always felt like the only way for me to be with a women in a long term relationship is to know she will do more for me then any other man she had ever been with.

That is not the case right now. I know people will say well he got her all dressed up but you got her. He got her to pierce her bellybutton but you got her.

I don't know that I want her if she can do that for another man but not me. I can never have that sense that my FWW will do more for me then any other man.

Heck there was something she did for her boyfriends, she did it for me. Then one day she decided she didn't want to do it for me. I told her it bothered me knowing she did it for her old boyfriends etc. Then 2 years later she does it for OM. Then 3 years later she admits it. Then I say but you won't do it for me. She said fine I did it for him once I will do it for you once.

I said no thank you. That would be humiliating to me and my pride. She did it once asked if I was happy then refuses to do it anymore.

I just am not getting the pride back she took away with her A.

Again 2x4's if my thinking on this is that far off.

It is killing my male pride.

And most importantly it is making it hard for me to Forgive MYSELF for staying with her. I need to forgive myself but how do I forgive myself under these circumstances.

BTW if we went over this time and counted the times she did the two things I asked her not too and the two things I asked her to do. The 2 things not to do happened more then the two things I asked her to do.

HI, I thought maybe I could really talk here...I don't want to TJ but I am frustrated with my thread. You know me, and a few others...

just keep in mind that WH will be working tonight, he's calm right now, and I don't have to see him if I don't want to and I have no plans to see him!

Even my co-worker says that WH is not a threat...now that I'm not scare of him...he's in proportion to my fear now...almost none.

Rin,

No worries. LOL TJ all you want.

Like I said it is not a matter of being afraid of him. It is about setting your boundries and sticking to them. Where I am now is based on me not setting my boundries and enforcing them.

He is testing you and your boundries. The book thing even though it is not a threat or anything he is testing you.

So lets say he is not a threat. It doesn't really play into it then. So we eliminate that and go with the facts.

He has had contact. He may be starting another inappropriate friendship. I believe it is and you believe it is but he doesn't.

Talking has not worked.

Plank has a thread on fear. The consesus is that the FWS or WS does not come around until the BS realizes they really don't need the FWS/WS anymore.

I am not advocating a D. What I am saying is can you see that you WILL BE FINE WITHOUT HIM.

My FWW finally came around when I said to her after one of our blow ups.(my fault if you ask her) The usual dynamic did not play out. Wait a few days for everything to blow over and all would be good.

She asked me what I was thinking. I said I am trying to decide if I want to get a D or go to MC. She said she would go to MC. I said well that is good but I need to decide which one is better for me. I waited and really pondered the decesion. She asked me almost eveyday if I had decided. Finally I figured in it for a dime in it for a dollar. So we are in MC as you know.

My FWW knows that I will be fine without her. She knows I can make that decesion.

Your H probably senses you won't leave. You talk about not being able to leave or make him leave. You don't need a D to get some cooling off time.

Him being calm isn't a big deal.

Let me tell you one more thing. I am struggling right now because of all the damage that has been done. I don't know if I am at the point of no return. There is only so much damage someone can do before the other person realizes that maybe there is nothing the other can do to ever make up for what has been done.

I am trying to decide right now that if my FWW was perfect for the rest of our lives if I will ever feel the same way about her. If the answer is no then in all fairness I should leave. Don't give your H permission to do so much damage that you will harbor resentment no matter what future good acts he does.

Yes, I know that I will be fine without him. I am preparing for a separation, property, bills...I did not tell him that to play games, I can assure you! I think Plan B would work...I know it would, but if I can't make him leave the house then what do I have?


Agreed! I can overlook him burning the books...b/c I know his fear...I WILL replace the books I think are important...I have no intentions of backing down! NONE!

This is what I see, I didn't explain my boundary well. MY part...he knows now or he did before and was testing me...I had a gut feeling he was going to do something when I left the house...I thought my clothes would be in the front yard,,LOL

I'm also making a schedule for the kids using the paperwork that my laywer gave me...

I am not stopping anything that I have been doing up until today...I will continue to strenghten myself and grow! I WILL not back down in a corner and LET him do anything to me. I just don't think that going to a Plan B suit us/ME right now!

His WORST fear is losing me and the kids! That's what's in my favor...but I will do what I have too!

Rin,

Yes the book thing is a little overblown. IMVHO.

It isn't that you don't explain your boundries well he just is not willing right now to respect them.

I have a little theory. A FWS or a WS has crossed the biggest boundry in an M and the BS is still there. So really if the BS is willing to stay after that what would they possibly leave me for. Start testing more boundries.

Maybe your FWH is thinking like my FWS, if he didn't divorce me for cheating he certainly isn't going to divorce me for flirting.

I don't know that plan b is the answer either. Note I have not said that. I said a cooling off period that might wake him up.

Maybe a little like this. I love you with all of my heart but I cannot accept this. I don't know at this point what I want to do. I don't want to lose the love I have for you so I need some time with NC with you.

No phone calls, not TM's and no contact with him.

To be honest he doesn't seem as though he fears losing you Rin. Not because he wants to but he just seems a little over confident.

Until he loses that confident feeling you may be stuck. You don't want to file for a D to make him lose that do you?

His worst fear of losing you and the kids means nothing right now because deep down he doesn't really beleive you will.

It is not about backing down owr anything else like that.

Again make clear simple statments. I cannot live under the same roof with you as long as you do this. I will be at ..... and I will be home on..... so I can clear my head.

Do you see it is usually you that keeps the relationship alive?

Hey HL,

How are you going today?

I can understand what you are saying about your doubts about the M. It must be tough to decide whether to wait and see or to make your own plans.

Maybe you could set yourself a period of time that you are prepared to wait and see? You can always revise it if you see some really positive signs. Hmmm , difficult.

One thing I am noticing from your posts is that, now that you are seeing things more clearly, the resentment that you have built up over the years is becoming clear to you. That may sabotage your efforts at repairing the M. Its natural that you feel resentment. What are you going to do about it?

So now you are now doing your best not to accumulate new resentment. Maybe you can think of some other ways not to accumulate new resentment?

HL, this really stood out to me.



I think you could dig a little deeper with this. Really think what it was that YOU were getting from doing things for her.

There must have been a reason that you took on that role in the M. The competent one, the hard-working one, the one who is able, reliable, who is a great H and who knows things. What is it about you that attracts you to this role? I am NOT saying its a bad thing to be. But clearly it means something extra to you, because I have noticed you mention it many times in this thread.

YOu said something earlier in the thread about being happy to do more things, if you got the appreciation and acknowledgement from her that you were a great H. Did I get that right? Have you got admiration on your list of ENs?

I know I have. Admiration is a really tricky one. I sort of double-edged sword. It can lead us into difficult situations.

Take care!

Smur,


Already did the digging.

My dad was an alcoholic. I have taken his negative traits and used them as a guide in my life. What attracted me to this role is to not be like my father. In doing so I gave up my own identity as a person working hard not to become my father.

My father was never competent, hard working or reliable. I chose to be those things and got cuaght up in doing that. I wanted to be admired and appreciated because my father never did. So what I was doing with my FWW is the same thing I did with my father. Work hard so someday I would be admired and appreicated.

Yes admiration is on my list of EN's. Respect, appreciation, O & H, SF, and admiration.


Yes the resentment has built up over this time. I do have a time frame for this to be better. I was very liberal in setting the time frame and I know it sounds bad.

My time frame since almost the beggining was April or May of 2007. The reason I was so liberal is because June will be our 10 year anniversary.

The new resentment is not really new. It is a overall feeling that my FWW does not value this M and me as a person as much as I do.

With everything that has happened I wonder if I will ever forgive myself for staying in this M with the way things have gone over the last 6 years.

The A made me realize a lot of this. I have worked hard to change those things with me.

When I said nope, I meant in the present tense for the most part. Once I realized this dynamic I wanted it to change. That is when I started trying to push it back on her. But in turn I kept doing the things to make sure things went smoothly so now I need to say YEP to that one too.
LOL

Thanks for the perspective on that one.

HL,

I know what you mean. My M dynamic was similar in some ways, minus the alcoholism. I got caught up in guilt very easily. Believing I was somehow responsible for everyone else's feelings.

Have you ever read any old threads/posts by BrambleRose? She is an expert on the alcoholic/children of alcoholic/co-dependent M. She had a very similar sit to yours and now her M is completely recovered. I find her quite inspirational.

Thanks HL! I'm back on my thread now. yes, I see how I keep the relationship going.

Thank you for letting me post. My heart goes out to you as a big brother I never had!

it is that old problem of never doing a plan B, they feel like they can do anything and you will stay....


Exactly - they do not see things clearly, they are in the P/A fog, so their sense of what is balanced or fair is warped .. they really cannot help themselves or us. MB just doesn't work, meeting ENs is not balanced. they feel a tiny EN gift is worth more than all your huge EN gifts. They really feel that way as all they can see is through the wrong end of a telescope when they look at our behaviour.

Linda

HL this is a plan B letter and a plan B - description ???? That is what plan B is - NC so they can cool off (or sit in the cold, without your love to keep them warm) and you can be free of them continuing to destroy what little of your love for them, is left.

Linda

There's a different b/t us HL, I do feel valuable. Everything's not all that bad, if more things were worst, yes, I could see going to more of an extreme in my sitch.

Oh, I don't think H is going to do a cooling off period. he came in this morning all friendly talking his head off...it's on my thread. Oh, I didn't mention....he gave me money...that usual too. Can we say for someone who refuses to kiss @ss...is kissing @ss!

I'm not talking...well, it's on my thread...I think I've taken on your way of handling things and am getting a response. UH, I need to put that on my thread so I can stop getting beat up.

My other thought is that of an abusive sitch...abuser does something bad then, tries to make up for it...my eyes are open...I'm looking at the big pic...I'm checking for a pattern...I just need some more time to see if I'm missing something important...

When your next MC session? I look forward to hearing about HL's validation! LMAO

SP,

Thank you for your response. The darn telescope thing hit it on the head.

The reason I have not brought up the PA behavior yet is that we all know a PA person when aware can really mask that behavior.

Her mask is coming off right now but I don't know if it is enough for the MC to see it. So in the meantime I am describing her actions as they are and she is doing her thing. Last week she actually said I am so pissed off right now in the MC. That was interesting. She was pissed off over a pretty small issue. So we will see.

As far as the Plan B thing. I was advocating a few days of NC with Rin and her H to cool off. No long term plan to not stay in plan B. I see where you are coming from though we can call it a Mini Plan B. LOL.

Rin I wrote to your thread as well. Funny thing I checked on your thread first and wrote about the picture and you used a picture analogy that I think mine explains what I think.

The next session is tomorrow night.

WOW, We are cool! Great minds think Alike! ?????

OR abused minds???? LMAO

So I actually cried today. Can't remember the last time I did that.

Long story short during the last MC session my FWW made it pretty clear she never had any intention of doing much to help me recover.

Today it hit me like a ton of bricks.

So now what?

I can no longer deal with the feelings of inadequacy I have in this M. Not in my life but in this M.

Three years I have done this now. Three stinking lousy, lying, betrayed years. Three years of looking at someone that has shown little to no remorse. Three years of justifications that have hurt me to the core. Three years of slowly stripping away what manhood I had left after the A.

Last MC she was nice enough to strip what was left away from me.

So now I sit here do I say it or do I wait to see if these feelings pass. I am tired of waiting to see if these feelings pass. They won't pass if she refuses to do one darn thing I ask.

I now feel like I am not worth one ounce of extra effort on her part.

She made promises and never fullfilled them. I am tired of fullfilling my promise.

I know what I am worth. The MC knows what I am worth. She refuses to see that.

Well end of pity party.

(((HL)))

I hear ya brother! I've been feeling the same way. I got the "I love you but I don't love you speech" back in June of 2004. The year prior were a lot of late night outs and lots of private conversations on the cell that I knew nothing about. He has written NC letter and swears he is done with her. But....he doesn't want to spend time alone w/me except of course if he is in the mood for SF. I've worked on myself...accepted responsibility for my failures in the marriage I want to move on...one way or the other. I'm tired of waiting for him. He won't even go to MC.

Have you spoken to SH? If she won't engage in following the 4 rules (like my FWH won't) I'm not sure what to do. So I'm sorry I don't have wise words of wisdom...but here's my support. Don't feel foolish for trying to rebuild your family....its her loss.