I haven't updated or posted about my situation in awhile.
I was just giving it some time.

We are approaching the one year mark (about 3 weeks from now). This is when I said I would make a decision about continuing or not continuing my relationship with L.

We have a different end-goal in mind. I want to eventually get married. That might be in 3 years, 5 years, whenever the time seems right.

He wants to NEVER get married. He can see himself with me forever, eventually living together but **never** getting married.

I can't live with that. I am just not wired to "date" someone permanently.

On our first date, we talked for over 6 hours about our beliefs on everything. He said marriage was a possibility.

Over time, he made various comments about the **never** part, so at about the 6 - 7 month mark we discussed it in more detail. His philosophy is that all marriages end up bad, can list numerous friends and family with failed marriages, doesn't think he'd be any good at it, etc.

I decided to just let it go at that point. To just spend more time together and maybe he would overcome his objections. (gosh -- Plan A I guess!!)

Seriously this is the best relationship I've ever had. He is a wonderful man. He treats me so well -- and I treat him well in return. We're both givers. (I've never been with a giver before -- gosh is it nice!!)

So now the subject has come up twice in the past month. His position has not changed.

We have planned time on Friday to talk about it.

But, bottom line -- I might understand his point of view but its highly unlikely I'm going to change it. And its highly unlikely (ok -- impossible...) that he is going to change mine. (I think I deserve the respect of marriage...I can expound more on that later).

So, I guess we wish each other luck and move on. Makes me very sad, but it will only get sadder if we keep on for another year or two. Its inevitable that this will end. Better now than when its even harder later, right?

I find this a curious statement b/c even though you say this you imply w/ the former that unless it ends in marriage, he's not being respectful? I may be reading too much into your statement, so please feel free to explain more.

I have some thoughts (I'll call it my light bulb moment) I'd like to share on a similar issue that came up b/w BF and I, but I'll wait for your answer

I know how hard Fri will be <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> HUGS!!

I also would like to hear the reasons why you would actually consider breaking up a wonderful relationship over this issue. Is it the "living in sin" aspect, having more kids, security, or what?

Believe me, I too would not expect myself to want to "date" forever, but then again, I am a fellow spouse-hunter, so I am biased I guess.

I can see the dilemma - wonderful relationship on the one hand, but if it is destined to go "nowhere" in your eyes, why waste time in it when you could be pursuing one that would lead somewhere... I know many here advocate the "one day at a time", "que sera sera" attitude, but you know me, I also think that spending time in a relationship that is not destined to go where you want to eventually be is sort of like spinning your slicks, er, wheels...

Ugh, tough one.

AGG

Lexxy ~ I truly feel for you. I too am facing the end after 14 months of a great relationship.

But non-negotiables are just that!!

In your case, there is something inherently flawed about wanting to continue indefinitely without a commitment. Marriage is all about commitment. We are meant for that. We each one need that very much.

Don't settle. Don't move your boundaries. You are correct on this. He is not.

In my opinion, there is something there with him that is a RED FLAG & you may not know all of the story. But back in there somewhere is the reason for his stand. It's not just about others around him have failed. Because we can point to numerous ones that suceed!!

Hang in there & keep praying for wisdom in your situation.

Best,
High Flight

DW -- my thoughts about the respect issue center around this: I find long term live in situations where one person wants marriage and the other is virually married anyway but can't "commit" really disrespectful.

So he can live with me, share finances and assets, enjoy all the benefits of marriage -- but not commit?? No thanks. I have too much respect for myself to live in a situation like that. And if that is the only place we are headed I feel like it is better ended now than later.

AGG -- I know a few couples in those long term live-in situation, and in most of those cases it is the men that just can't commit to marriage. And I don't get that mindset. They are faithful to each other, share all the responsibilities, what is the hang-up????
I'm going to listen to what he has to say about it. I'd really like to understand better. I feel like the answers I've gotten so far have been kinda superficial.
Remember, this is the guy who also had a big hang up about the "LOVE" word too. We managed to overcome that one. But he is just adament about marriage.

HF -- there is a bit of a red flag there. I am hoping Friday will give me a deeper understanding of his position. He had a couple of really bad relationships in his past that resulted in GF's cheating on him and getting pregnant (that happened twice to him...) So he dated no one (not one single date) in twelve years.
So maybe he's just really really set in his ways. He's had twelve years to develop the thought that he'd never get married. But for a guy who's experience has been limited and negative -- he is a GREAT boyfriend.
But the other side of that is that I am a GREAT girlfriend. And I deserve someone who would be enthusiastic about being with me. I shouldn't have to nag or beg about this issue -- I refuse to.

Have you considered reading Freeloaders, Renters and Buyers, it may describe your BF very well? I think it does a great job explaining the difference between being married and not. The latter makes for a Renter, the former for a Buyer.

I totally disagree with the concept that marriage is just a piece of paper, there is way more that goes with it than a piece of paper. Like I said, the book explains the fundamental difference very well.

By all means, go and talk to him on Fri - but my guess is that you already know the answer, as you said it above - he is a great BF, and you are a great GF - but that is not what you are looking for. If he is so insistent on staying on those terms, he is telling you something - and my guess it that he is telling you that he wants to have to option to change the rental agreement at a future date, something that he knows he can't do if he became a buyer. Put another way, I think he likes having one foot out the door, in case things ever change. It is not meant to be pessimistic, it just means that he is not interested in taking a chance and losing control. I suspect if you push things on Fri, that is what it will be all about - control. Renters can have control, Buyers can't.

AGG

I've not given a lot of thought to remarriage at this point. I haven't clarified what I want but I'm getting closer & AGG's word really hit a cord. This does let me know I should be clearer about what I want for myself before I start down the relationship road.

You're ahead of me lexxxy because you already know you want marriage, nothing less. His thinking is a HUGE barrier.

The words that hit home the most are "...he wants the option to change...he likes to have one foot out the door in case things ever change...he is not interested in taking a chance & losing control."

I'm sorry you're in this situation lexxxy. What's interesting to me is he can be a great BF. I wonder with the amount of hurt he carries around how he can detach from it to be a good BF but can't see his way to a commitment.

AGG -- great suggestion on that book. I've read some of the concepts and some excerpts -- it probably fits this situation ideally. Think I'll make a trip to the library today.

Nams -- he is a great boyfriend. He does all the right things instinctively. He calls me 3 - 4 times a day. He makes a point of finding time to see each other. He makes plans ahead of time with me. He is someone you can count on. His word is gold.
For someone like me that's been cheated on repeatedly -- I trust him completely (no small thing!)
He's friendly and nice to my kids, my family, and all my friends. Everyone who's met him loves him.
He is incredibly good to his family and friends. He is the most considerate person I've ever known.
And its so weird -- because he is committed to me anyway. We don't see other people (I have zero interest in dating anyone else.) I treasure what I have with him.

I have tried to talk myself into staying in this relationship. But I can't. Because it would slowly drain my self-esteem. I already question what faults I have that make me not worthy of marriage. Even though this is his hang-up, I would have expected that he could see the value in me to overcome it. I want to be with someone who will treasure me as much as I do them. Thats what I need to tell him tomorrow.

I wonder too if the prospect of losing you & the apparently great relationship you two have will give him pause...

I sure hope so.

I absolutely understand when you say you will feel de-valued, lose self esteem, if you were to simply live with him. I don't know that I would have had the forsight to understand this were I in your shoes but to see the words I think I would.

Best of luck {{{{lexxxy}}}} you're a strong woman!

Lexxy,

You are right. I'm not good at putting quotes from one post onto another, but he needs to know what it is doing to you to know that he never wants to marry again.

The two bad relationships are no excuse. I can see where he might have a lot of fear. I'm almost acared to death at the thought of marrying a man with kids again after what happened in my last marriage. But still I couldn't just live with a man for the rest of my life. It would do everything to me that it's doing to you. Plus in time resentment would kick in at some point down the road because I was willing to commit but the other person wasn't. That would not be a good thing either.

So, just go ahead and be radically honest with him. Let him know that you have to pull back to yourself because of what this is doing to you. That you aren't interested in dating anyone else, but that you can't live with yourself in a situation like that. Let him know how much this hurts you, how much you love him, but that you would lose respect for yourself at the thought of just living with someone for the rest of your life.

You can do it. We all believe in you!!

Best wishes and prayers

Becki

Lexxxy, It’s obviously not you. It’s the construct of marriage the man objects to. I bet he treasures you just as much as you treasure him. He just can’t demonstrate it in the way you need him to. That’s what makes this so sad.

I personally can understand how he feels. While I wouldn’t go so far as to say “I’d never remarry,” marriage doesn’t have the same meaning for me as it used to. My experience of marriage has been so negative that I see it as a human construct used to help keep societies organized. I agree it’s not just a piece of paper; it does change a relationship. In my experience, it often changes relationships for the worse. The number of “happy” marriages I know of is very small: maybe five. Most others I either can’t tell, or one or both spouses is miserable. Marriage is highly speculative.

That, of course, is just me. Obviously, most others aren’t as afraid of the risk as I am. I agree if you really want the structure of marriage, this man is not for you.

And, if he doesn’t give pause, as Nams said, I wouldn’t take that as he didn’t care enough. His limitations don’t mean he loves you less. It just means he can’t give you want you need. And those are two entirely different things.

Just when I start thinking marriage is what I want for my future GG writes the words I've said to myself & others confussing me all over again. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Does this mean I'm not ready for a man in my life? He'll ask me what I want for my future & I'll give him a blank, dear-in-the-head-lights stare. I'll stutter & stammer, ah, ah, I don't know... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Sorry lexxxy, I shouldn't make light of this.

That’s not making light of it, Nams. And, I don’t think being ambivalent about marriage means you’re not ready for a relationship. I might get remarried in time, but I think I’ll go in with far different expectations than I did the first time. I don’t think I’ll ever again equate “The Marriage” with “The Relationship” like I did the first time. I was so busy trying to save my marriage, I never saw my relationship with my spouse was dead and decomposing. Next time around, my focus will be on the relationship.

(sorry for threadjacking, Lexxy.) And big hugs to you. I know this stinks.

Green -- thanks. I think I logically understand that its his problem, not me. But I am anxious to hear more about his philosophy on the whole thing.

He's never been married, so maybe I am giving his opinion less credence than from someone who's actually had the experience and wants nothing to do with it.

Maybe this is something he could overcome in time. But I need to know that. If he can be open minded, and we can at least consider it, I'd hang in there. But he is so flat out adament. So if that is the case, I appreciate his honesty. I prefer not to linger and make this harder hnd harder.

He deserves to be heard, but I doubt there is much of a philosophy behind his position. How much of a philosophy is there behind the desire to get married? Not much - it's just something you want, which is fair. His philosophy is different, which is also fair. Unfortunately, they are incompatible.


Hmmm, that sounds like you view his position as an "illness" of sorts, which is not fair to him. You should not expect him to change or grow out of this outlook any more than he should expect you to grow out of yours. Not be judgemental, but it would be somewhat disrespectful to think that his position is something that he would "mature" out of - he may view yours the same way.

Having said all this, I am curious to hear how your chat goes - good luck!

AGG

I’m dittoing AG on that. Prior to marriage, I would have thought your boyfriend’s “no marriage” stance immature. Now, I know better. I also think it’s interesting that he said he wouldn’t be a good marriage partner. If there’s one thing I’ve learned, it’s that when a person tells you something bad about him/herself, you can believe it. B. used to tell me his emotional age was 17. Several other ex-boyfriends have said other things that turned out true. I myself just admitted to being compulsive about some things, like Christmas present wrapping.

OK, I realize that I'm operating off of a minimal amount of second-hand information, but...this resistance to marriage sounds fishy to me.

I haven't read the book mentioned, so what I have to say may be covering old ground, but I'll say it anyway.

I can understand someone saying they don't believe in marriage. It would make me want to look carefully into their values with regard to issues of love and commitment, but a philosophy which rejects marriage as an institution is not inherently incompatible with the values underlying marriage, in my opinion.

However, that doesn't seem to be what's going on here. The objections that L is raising are not philosophical, and they are not even experiential (in which case additional time to allow for healing/recovery might be warranted). Instead, his rationale is that "all marriages end up bad, can list numerous friends and family with failed marriages, doesn't think he'd be any good at it, etc." Speaking bluntly, that's all bogus. It's the kind of nonsense which gets presented as a smokescreen.

Lexxxy, you say that "its so weird -- because he is committed to me anyway." And yet, given what you've written in this thread, I see no evidence of that. If all you mean is that you "don't see other people," that's not a commitment. That just indicates that you adequately meet each other's needs at this time, so that the effort involved in looking elsewhere is contra-indicated.

You say he is a "great boyfriend." OK, fine, but...a boyfriend is not a husband. The behavior that you've described in this thread comes relatively cost-free. Thoughtfulness, integrity, charm...if these are aspects of his character, it is no great effort for him to act accordingly. And sure, no doubt he does put in effort, but it seems that he's getting pretty good reward for it.

But what happens when life isn't going so smoothly? What happens when circumstances arise where the cost goes up? That's when you want someone beside you who not only is committed, but who values that commitment.

Life, especially in the long-term, doesn't much resemble dating.

Very well said Gnome D P...

Yes, very well said GDP, and precisely the point of Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders. It's one thing to be a great boyfriend (Renter), but totally another to decide to become a husband (Buyer). There is the saying about "why buy the cow when..." but we won't go there.

The real point is that a great BF/GF relationship is nothing like a great marriage, and Lexxxy is smart enough to realize that. In the current relationship, neither one is committed, so it's easy to be independent and in control. But, if we buy into Harley stuff, neither of those can work in a marriage.

If the BF does not want to get married and Lexxxy does, there is much more of a difference than a piece of paper. It is the fundamental outlook on what they want in life, and without that being agreed on, I can see why resentment would build in time.

AGG

AGG -- I will respect his position, I just want to understand it.

I don't want to act prematurely if this is just something that he needs time to adjust to.

I don't know if you remember this about him, but the "L" word was a big huge deal for us too. It does not come naturally to him whatsoever (even now). It takes a lot of time and patience for him to get used to some ideas.
I totally pursued him last year. Getting him to go out for our first date took some coaxing!

Gnome -- great points. very interesting. I'll give you more background, and I would love to hear your thoughts.
Really intriguing about the low cost effort/reward ideas, and you're right about the commitment. Maybe its me that needs to think further about that -- I am not acting any differently in terms of commitment than if we were married, so maybe I am projecting that onto him and wondering what the big deal is?

So background: He always thought he would get married and have a family. Even after a couple bad relationships he still was open to marriage. After the last one, and sometime during his twelve year hiatus from relationships is when he decided that marriage is a "bad deal", which was solidified by watching lots of surrounding friends and families go through divorces and problems. His parents in particular have an interesting relationship. They've been married for over 50 years, but don't seem to enjoy each other much.