Hey RIn! SOrry to hear you're not fairing very well either. What book are you reading? I had forgotten that our d days were very close together. Despite your sadness and such, I'm glad for you that at least you have some opportuinity to mend things with H even if he seems disinterested most times. I pray for you to have happier days and continued enjoyment with your kiddos as you have done for me. If not for our kids, I hate to think where I or perhaps you would be right now. They are a blessing for so many reasons. I'm trying to focus on that as well. I plan to take my kiddos for pics in the next month. Looking forward to seeing yours posted here.

Hugs!

Hiya, Rin!

How are you today? Right now?

"I am not present...I am very low...

I made the mistake of reading a few lines of PA man also...that didn't help!"

Are you trying to manage your emotions or get the information from them they are trying to deliver?

Mood modification...I wonder if that's a pole on your spiral staircase? Trying to change the information instead of understand it? Hmmm...you already know that viewing the past gives you all the emotions you had while living it...and handing it to you cumulatively...'cuz brain doesn't know time. Could your emotions right now...the not present...be the way you soothed yourself as a child? Went to fantasy, the future...or relished an event in the past, to modify your mood, your emotions?

"I have spend what 2, 2, 5, 5, 1, 1, 1=17 hours with H in almost two weeks...lefts just make it 20 to add up the times we have talked on the phone and I've dropped him lunch off."

What are you trying to say here, Rin? Dang it, no UA time..Stupid working NIGHTS! Or are you saying...wow, I've eeked out 17 hours, 10 that wouldn't have happened had I not chosen to call, cook and take him food...and how much I enjoyed my act of love and connection...and how much admiration, appreciation and acceptance I received on top of that?

"I firmly believe he is PA and I don't have any hopes of him changing..."

Whoa...P/A behaviors are chosen...automatically chosen behaviors...not a condition...not a disease. And if you believe another human being cannot change, then you're telling self in the same breath, YOU cannot change.

Ouch.

"us feelng connected like I want so badly...i see our kids growning up and repeating our pattern..."

Not within your control. Honestly. Do you have full dominion over other humans? Your kids are human. They have their own stuff...own perceptions, perspectives, thoughts, feelings and beliefs...they really do. They aren't clay to mold at all...and showing them, as you have been, that you choose your own stuff...that you only control you, your power and limits...is the best parenting on the planet.

Why are you stabbing yourself with a future that isn't here yet? What did you do that was so wrong you need to punish yourself this way?

"Furthermore, I see H claiming I treat him like a child for the rest of our lives together and him continuely saying that I can pack my stuff and go."

When you truly know you are NOT parenting your partner, then you won't react to his perception...you'll know it truly for what it is, his. Believe that. You've already experienced it. If an A does anything, it does this...it shows us how their justifications are theirs alone, not truth, not close to the truth...so we know who we are, separately. Very important step for having real intimacy...not just two reflections bouncing off each other.

"I have been trying to get him to go to MC with me for years and I don't see that changing."

You can go to IC yourself...takes awhile to get in...pick an MC who does IC and make sure to sign a privacy statement so H can't be told anything you've said without your permission...so when you have the money coming back in, you'll be ready for weekly sessions...where you will THRIVE for you...that can be a magnet to FWH. Or not.

You looked into the future to bite yourself again. Why?

Can you see how doing that gave you the emotion of sadness, futility and loss? If you want real mood managment, look to your thoughts, 'k? Do it the real way, not from outside, but within.

"I understand that it's a process and we're talking baby steps for the both of us, but I just don't see it."

Look how FAR you've already come, Rin! Get real...both hands...all that you know now, believe and experience...oh, I know...you said you don't feel present...you began it...and here I am wanting to change your choice to not be. My dear sister...sister of my heart...I'm sorry. You just wanted to dip into the unknown and evidence pool...for one night...and here I am wanting to manage YOUR mood.

Ack.

LOL

I know you allowed yourself one night...and today, it's all different. You wanted to touch all your fears, run your hands over them and wrap them around you...okay...

Will you tell me in your straight-from-the-hip great Rin style, why?

Where was the payoff...like a backhanded compliment to yourself? Let me know...so I can know...and benefit...find it in me, too, 'k?

(((Rin))) My hero. 'Cuz you are.

LA

HI, angie & LA!

I'm doing much better tonight. It's been a really long day!

First, H and I got into it this morning after he got home. No, I failed again with listen and repeat! H started saying why does everything now have to be justified, clarify or some other BS! I got mad, he won...he said there it wasn't a win lose situation. I was still half asleep and wasn't thinking to save my life.

H went straight to bed, I followed, even though I didn't want to lay next to him. I woke up later and grabbed my pillow, laid on the sofa, kids went playing in the back, and slept some more.

Well, I just displaced the YS! LOL Sort to speak! MIL called @10am and asked if he wanted to go with them. They were two hours away buying some sheep. I asked YS and he said yes, then MIL wanted me to ask him if he wanted to go to school. Of course, YS said yes!

MIL will be enrolling YS in school six hours away for as long as YS will stay there. So, I packed his clothes, woke H up and let him know what and where we were going and was out the door in an hour. Road trip!

OS and I dropped YS off with the grandparents and went visit some friends that live in Baton Rouge. We just got home! It was a good day, I treated them out to supper before I left. While YS and I were there we stopped at the HD shop and I found me riding boots, called H and he said to get them. They were on sale (HURRAY!)47 dollars off, and H asked me to pick him up a shirt too. NO problem!

I'm going to be lost without my little monkey around!

Oh, Angie, I'm reading "Living with a Passive Aggressive Man." All these years I've wondered what was up with H and I and when LA helped identify this behavior it was like a relief washing over me.

Okay, since I up for it I'll answer your questions LA.

"Are you trying to manage your emotions or get the information from them they are trying to deliver?"

I'm sure not getting any information from them, so I must be trying to manage them, like trying to manage my triggers! I was feeling hopeless last night, like it doesn't matter what I do it's not going to change anything. I feel like I don't have a choice other than stay in the sitch as is or D. Some of the thoughts I was having last night I'm ashamed of, all about me!

"What are you trying to say here, Rin? Dang it, no UA time..Stupid working NIGHTS!"

Here you go, you nailed it! I wanted to be with him sooo bad last night, then, this morning, I didn't want to be around him at all! Huh!

"Whoa...P/A behaviors are chosen...automatically chosen behaviors...not a condition...not a disease."

Sure feels like a disease...H feels like a disease is what I mean to say...

"And if you believe another human being cannot change, then you're telling self in the same breath, YOU cannot change."

No can't but won't...I believe that he WON'T change...

"You looked into the future to bite yourself again. Why?"

Because I got tired of fighting for a minute, still tired from fighting for my M. I don't know what other word to use instead of fighting. I allowed myself...it's what I believe will happen...everything all of our problem will be swept under the rug. What's really bad, I don't believe H has learned his lesson, But I guess that remains to be seen.

"Will you tell me in your straight-from-the-hip great Rin style, why?"

Because I'm scared...scared that my M won't change, scared I'll give up, scared I'll fail and not change myself...How hard can listen and repeat be? Validate, all I have to do is validate his stuff, not refute it, know that it's his...What I can't do that? Why? I want to know what's stopping me from moving forward on that one. WHAT?

I'm pretty pissed off with myself on that one...I feel like I handled the last two conversations with H pretty bad.

I was thinking on the way home tonight that I enjoy it so much when he's not around...I enjoy myself...I know that if something happened I would be fine. Then, like AmI, I'm scared of the change. How can one know that they would be okay but fear the change anyway? What sense does that make?

"Where was the payoff...like a backhanded compliment to yourself?"

I don't know I sure was not looking at where H and I have started I can tell you that...I wasn't thinking about anything positive...so I would without a doubt say there was no payoff...just helps me feel lower. We're just conditioned as human being to think so negativily...

I was so gunho at the beginning to think positivily...everyday is a new day...yesterday was yesterday and tomorrow is tomorrow. It's like I've lost my energy...I've lost my focus...

H and I haven't had the time to discuss a common goal...I feel stonewalled! Like I'm beating my head up against a brick wall...I am discontented with the present situation. And I'm not trying to be perfect, I just want and feel i deserve better.

Why do I feel so great when he's not around? Like today...out and about doing my own thing...then like last night miss him soo much and want him to be with me...

I'm confused!

"You wanted to touch all your fears, run your hands over them and wrap them around you...okay..."

LOL, I'm still touching my fears...thing is I know my fears are worse the what's actually is...will be...has been...

I'll post late tonight about today. I will say that this morning...we just were...no real talk about anything...if was okay...and he's not working tonight...they are closing the shop for the night to get some painting done.

We'll see!

Rin...for later...

I asked you "Where was the payoff...like a backhanded compliment to yourself?"

And you said
"I don't know I sure was not looking at where H and I have started I can tell you that...I wasn't thinking about anything positive...so I would without a doubt say there was no payoff...just helps me feel lower. We're just conditioned as human being to think so negativily..."

Payoffs don't have to be positive...they can be negative...if within you, there is a positive YOU feel...like resentment...that's a negative payoff from holding others to our own standards and beliefs...our expectations...the negative is resentment, feels positive...empowering, "right", solid ground of entitlement...which can seem positive, can't it?

You have a payoff of jumping into the future, of defining what is to come or not come, through your present knowledge. Get to the heart of your choice to do that and you will embrace more of yourself...know your reactions better and not struggling within yourself so much to modify or manage your moods.

You believe you have no payoff...and I believe humans do NOTHING without a payoff...doesn't mean it's a real payoff (enhances their living in truth)...there are false payoffs...like within resentment...but until they are known and seen for what they are, we just act from them as if they are real, when they are not.

Gives us that caught in a cycle feeling; that no way out; life repeating pattern. Seems like you were experiencing that Friday night.

LA

You know for so many years I dreamed that FWH would become more affectionate, caring, and loving as he got older. I dream that I'll be treated with more love. The payoff is trying to squawing that dream, or at least trying to.

It what I've always wanted...FWH to be more compassionate with me...I'm dreaming...not living in reality...so I guess it would be equal to grieving a fantasy that I've had in my head. Another way of trying to accept my new reality...

It's a very VERY difficult dream to give up...it leads me into the future...then what's my goal for my M to be now?

I feel like I can't even ask FWH about developing a common goal for our M. It just seems to me like he doesn't want to have any conversations like that. I need to know where we are headed, I would like to have a common goal. I guess it's a matter of caught him at a time and getting past me fear where I feel he'll talk and ask him what he would like for the two of us.

On a side note, I still have about two weeks before I can talk R talk. Should I wait still...I think it might be a good idea since we have so little time together. This is me being impatient...yet again.

I'm present today...feelings pretty good...

Well, I just gathered all the courage I could must and called H. I asked him if he could think about a common goal for the two of us, of where he sees us going. I said that if I was having adown day I could have that goal to focus on, so it wouldn't be so bad.

He was very cheerful, said okay babe and that was that.

Now, let's see where we get with that one. At least, I asked, i got the words out of my mouth.

Rin,

Remember the tear process for grief.

T = To accept the reality of the loss
E = Experience the pain of the loss
A = Adjust to the new environment without the lost object
R = Reinvest in the new reality

Reinvest in the reality Rin. Stop hoping or wishing for things from the FWH. He has to chose to change, you cannot make that choice for him.

Right now what is happening IMVHO is you have worked so hard on yourself and you are not seeing the same on the other side.

Now remember that is your goal. You want to become a better person, a person that will not continue to live within a relationship that is not healthy. All you can do is your part. Then hope he follows.

I think that one of the things we both get caught up in sometimes is what the other person is doing.

I find it personally frustrating at times to see my FWW not doing the things that she would want me to do. Not seeing that my FWW and I both have the same goal. The goal to me is changing the dynamic so we have a health M.

It is frustrating to me because she justified her A in the typical way a FWS does. This was a wakeup call for me that our M had problems. I NEEDED to see a change for me. This M is still not good for me. One day I hope it is.

I am not trying to be selfish etc. I abslutely know I as a person in a commited relationship hold value. I am not willing to spend the rest of my live being undervalued.

I think my FWW doesn't want to take ownership of issues. I don't think she wants/wanted our M to change. She really liked it the way it was before the A. She was in charge, I avoided conflict, I let her PA behavior dictate my actions.

I will not live in that type of M anymore. On the other hand it was great for her. She did what she wanted, when she wanted, and how she wanted. She had the power in the M and no power at all. She was always the victim. This is the M that was so bad she had an A. But it is the M she is fighting so hard to maintain.

One of the things that really has bothered me is our M was not A proof. I SHOULD HAVE BEEN THE ONE that had the A based on my EN's not being met. I didn't meet a selfish demand and look what happened.

I don't want that M. I am making sure I don't have that M by working on the only person I know is willing to make that happen. That person is me.

If she choses not to change then I have choices. If I chose to leave at least I know I will not repeat this cycle in any other relationships.

Do you realize that dreams of this sort...concentrate on telling your self over and over again what you don't have right now?

It is like focusing on deprivation instead of abundance...when you have the opportunity to find the abundance right now...

You get a payoff in dreaming...a fantasy...which gives your reality more bite than it really has right now...

Is your payoff proving yourself right? That you will be bitten by FWH's actions? When it's you biting your own tail?

That can feel like a reward...I was right! And it is false...where the term "Do you want to be right or do you want to be married" comes from. If you value being right...proved right...inside and out...instead of feeling loved, cherished, appreciated or admired...then that is what you will experience...the hollow echo of feeling pain from rejection, from not being loved well enough, in the way you want when you want it...and you'll be right.

Sound like a good trade off? Sound like thwarting your heart's desire for a false payoff?

You know what is a thoroughly corrosive, abusive start to any sentence? "If you loved me, you'd...."

It's traitortous, a lie and an SD...a DJ...all rolled into one.

Truth would be, "I feel loved when I see you (do, say) <blank>" And I found the best way to feel loved by these means is to do just those things myself...

I crave affection? I act more affectionate...touch goes two ways...my palm feels as well as feeling...my words are affectionate, from truth...what I appreciate, admire, accept and celebrate...and I am affectionate with myself.

I choose to act caring...listening and repeating, validating, acknowledging, not fixing...O&H statements, I believe, are an act of care...for self and DH.

And I focus on DH's acts of care to really see them...in his way, his language, not mine...so that I will know when he calls to say he is going to be late because someone didn't show up at work, the call is his loving act...or when he talks about what he wants to paint...which has nothing to do with me, but his own interest and passion...that he's sharing with me his thoughts...sharing with me...or when he sits next to me saying, "Look at this! What do you think of this?" in a designer's magazine, about built-ins and colors for homes...I know that is him including, concerned, excited...sharing with me and wanting me to share in his thoughts about our home...his respect and care shine because I see it...my focus to see it.

And I feel loved well and true...because I dream of no other way to be loved--by staying busy seeing and hearing all the ways I already am.

I used to grieve all the time...manipulate, rebel and demand to be loved the way I wanted, the way I could feel it without effort on my part...until I realized when I wanted compassion from my DH, I wanted him to FEEL my feelings, know my experience from the inside out and DO something to change it.

All my stuff...giving myself a lot of sadness, anger, resentment and pain unnecessarily. To share is to know, not to get him to fix, accept responsibility for what isn't his...and me doing this fed his fear of being responsible for what he could not control...shoving my stuff down his throat...

And feeling it shoved down my own.

Perception matters, Rin. You know that. When people say you're not accepting reality...how can we not accept what is...what just is? By fantasy...living in the future or the past...the automatic payoff would be NOT living in the present, wouldn't it? Soothing or Injuring ourselves with the future or past is the same thing...if you believe it...there is a payoff in self-stabbing...it gives you the feeling of being right, being secure in your ability to predict what others will do, the false sense of it then being within your control if you look for the negative stuff and perceive it as real...makes it real.

Grieving our expectations and dreams takes not continuting to buy into that cycle...perpetuating it ourselves so that we experience them as a loss...true loss...to go through the stages of grief. If we perpetuate them, we can't grieve, can we? We get stuck, maybe, in regrieving, again and again?

Staying present...common goal for your marriage? You have the goal, if I remember, of having a thriving marriage someday...and you're willing to do your work...common goal, you both want to be married to each other...his presence shows that...yours does too...common enough?

Or are you trying to feel secure in him having the exact same vision for your marriage that you have? Can he have his own?

Emotional cutting...stabbing ourself with the worst possible perception and perspective (choosing those) because we then can feel our routine and regular feelings...if I told you that what you're doing right now was poking the underside of your left forearm with a pin, by focusing on your reflection giving you what you want to feel real...would you consider that for a day?

Good stuff to ponder...in the present...knowing yourself is a full-time job...focusing on others, what THEY'RE not doing sure can be a vacation from our full-time job...if we let it.

In your corner,

LA

"Right now what is happening IMVHO is you have worked so hard on yourself and you are not seeing the same on the other side."

YOU GOT IT!


I thought I had done this but I guess it's not as easy as I thought.

See, the common goal question is a led in question. Next, well, how are we going to get there?

okay, I just asked myself if I was crazy...and had to remind myself that I'm not!

I hope I'm not trying to set myself up for a false payoff.

Did I mention H was off last night? It was jus the three of us, we went bought OS and H some shoes, and then went out to dinner. We had a good night. SF was alright, good way to feel like a vessel. It was an ooopss and that was it! Nothing!

Same old same old! Nothing this morning! Now, don't get me wrong I've enjoyed it, but I would have enjoyed it more if he would follow through! Some how, some way! I'm going to say something about that soon, it's a matter of how.

Today, he left the house, went get coffee, and me a cappacino. I thanked him, he said it wasn't anything but some time. So, we're good today and he goes back to work tonight and he'll probably be off this Sat. And Sun. b/c the company is doing some repairs at work and they have to cut the electricity.

LA We were posting at the same time. I'll reply soon!

Rin,

BTW I read your message and you are welcome. LOL.

So here it is. Baby steps. I realized my FWW is not doing much more then before. She is not necessarily returning the effort but what I am getting is at least an acknoledgement of my work and effort. I do not think she sees them as deposits though. Ahhhhh the ever elusive LB.

I think the problem is not letting the problems effect everything else. Drawing a line between what you will just sit there and the things that have to be done.

I wish I could figure that one out. I mean do I really let the kids not do their homework? Can I tell her no AA meetings because I am burned out.

Trying to take something away from a taker is not easy. LOL.

So now she is not living up to her car deal. Buying new clothes getting her nails done etc. HMMM

Can you say HL will have the new car soon. LOL.

Well, NO Need to get the 2X4s out. I took care of that myself at lunch. This time I think we went a little deeper into the lesson!

I understand more now why It's important that I stay in the present, also, that the "dream" I had creates a lot of fantasy.

the difference between last time we went over this lesson, I was feeling all the pain and hurt. This time I was clearly able to read and say to myself "OMG, look at what you are doing! You know this!" I'm kicking myself for this one!

I see how all these years of holding on to that dream has hurt me...I see my part in the old M...not seeing what H was doing and wanting my fantasy part...I see very clearly that I didn't see what he WAS doing...always looking for what he wasn't...

I'm going to kick myself a few more times...then, I'm going to move on...I'm a little disappointed in myself!

I am so shocked at myself...I mean I was reading it and didn't have to ponder over it...I knew exactly what you were saying this time...

With that said, I saw how much I have learned being here...ownership, DJs, validation, staying present...it's like all my lessons balled into one!

Well, I may be kicking myself but I can say that I'm learning...and I see that I'm learning these things.

It's like it all right there...why I focus on me and not the OP. How it is to model ...to led by example!


IT's like a sweet relief! I can think of at least one negative thing I want to say to myself right now! "Hey Studip!" It's just like ALL of the puzzle pieces fit together!

What would I do without the two of you? LMAO

So, Rin, how's all that kicking yourself and DJing working for you?

You've done it all your life...could you maybe NOT do it and see how you like the resulting feelings, thoughts and beliefs?

What if kicking and putting yourself down as if you can make yourself not do something by punishing yourself...actually insures you DO exactly what you don't want to do?

Would you stop then?

Would you accept yourself, change your perception, teach your brain the perspective you want in your life...LOVINGLY?

When you punish yourself, you will punish others...and when you put yourself down, you'll crave that fantasy even more, to lift yourself back up...how about breaking the cycle right here...no kicking, no degrading, no put downs and no other act but acceptance that self is innocent...and your habits are what you're fighting, not self...and changing those habits takes time, consistent actions with a new deep belief...and a lot of self-love...you are your own child. Stop beating you.

LA

Oh, I got over it really fast! I was done a few minutes after I posted it!

Now, I'm thinking about YS. MY baby's first day of school and I didn't get to see it! I'm happy but sad at the same time. I tlaked to him on the phone this morning. I told him how proud of I was him and that he was such a big boy now. I asked him if he was going to learn his A, B, C's and he said he would try! It was so cute. But it's just now hitting me...my baby is going to school...

MIL is the prinicple at the school he's going to...they are six hours away from me! YS (L) will be staying as long as he wants too or should I say as long as we can both handle it! LMAO L's the kid that has always been attached at the hip!

I couldn't go anywhere without him until two Thanksgiving's ago! H and I were going to the store, so we dressed him in his coat. We got ready to walk out the door and L decided that he was staying with his grandparents. I was very worried the entire time we were gone, H and I were both shocked! And since that day, he'll go visit from time to time...he stayed for 3 weeks last time before wanting to come home.

I mean no yelling in the house, NO rockets, no fighting with his brother, no "mom, can I sleep with you?"

I will miss the little [censored]...but I'm trying to be positive and I can use this time to spend with OS (F). F's asked to sleep in the bed with me before L left, so this week I'm going to let him. LOL He moves alot so I don't know how that's going to work out.

See LA no kicking...I'm Changing my behavior and shorting that time! RMAO! Seriously, I did think what were you thinking and doing when I read the post, but a few minutes later, I was fine! the way I figure it...I've got better things to do!

I'm going to call L tonight and see how his first day of school was. I'll be holding in the tears of joy, happiness, and sorrow until then. LOL

(((((Rin)))))

You will do well. Just keep doing what you're doing. Don't give up, like I've had to.

Hey RX, did you read this one?

Re: Different day... [Re: hurtingless]
#3106745 - 09/25/06 11:46 AM

That's the one I thought you may be interested in. I should have told you that earlier.

And I appreciate the support and faith! I'm going to offer you my shoulder...I feel like I have a vested interest in YOU now! LMAO I'll have hope for you on the days that you don't! Deal?

Oh, Rin! I missed something ... why is YS going to school six hours away??? I'm trying to read back through but am not finding it yet.....

-AmI.

Yes Rin I agree with Ami it is not easy keeping up with you. LOL.

I am glad things are becoming clearer for you.

Remember my previous advice work on one thing until you have it. LOL.

You can't fix it all at one time.

Work on your PA coping techniques. I am not a jedi yet but sooner or later that light saber will just come flying back to my hand. LOL.

My FWW is trying still and I keep cutting it off at the pass.

MIL calles Sat. Morning and asked if L wanted to come stay with them for a while. L wanted to so MIL asked me to ask him if he wanted to go to school while he was up there. Needless to say, L wanted to, so, he enrolled today!

I'm sure not going to deny the best in-laws a person can have to see their grandson, and if L wants to go to school, who am I to stop him!

Yes, we'll miss each other but it will be fine. I'm use to not seeing the kids for a month or few weeks at a time. last year, they took L for three weeks almost a month. F has gone all summer, not this past summer but the summer before and the one before that.

I grew up like this, I would go stay with my dad for a month at a time. H and I think it's benefitical to the kids. We live in the city, not big city, but still city, so the kids learn to appreciate the country life.

Chicken, eggs, sheep, goats, horses occassionally, four wheelers, tractors, hunting, fishing...it the stuff I look back on in my life and think those where the greatest times...I would do the same thing with my grandparents! I'm hoping that my kids will look back on it as fondly as I do!

With nothing but love!

I didn't know what to say to you when I read how swiftly you made the decision, wasn't it while FWH was sleeping? For YS to go off to school...

I trust you gave it a lot of thought prior to that this weekend as you mentioned the drive, etc...and had talked it over with FWH in the event he did want to go...because I know you wouldn't have done it spur of the moment...would you?

Shook me up...so I CA'd and didn't mention.

LOL

Just like you selling your bike...you wouldn't do that without POJA, would ya?

LA