(((((Rin)))))

You didn't screw up! He screwed up by having an A, by breaking NC!!! Think in terms of HIS LOSS...

A surprising lesson that I learned that is that it is NEVER TOO LATE to back up and start all over again in this process..

It's something about the FOGGINESS of the WS..he's not even in our time zone..

YOU ARE TEE ONE WITH THE PLAN... Well..you now have to further define, refine and develop YOUR PLAN....

You have the basics above. These are KEY ELEMENTS of RECOVERY..which are NON-NEGOTIABLE...

Tell him that and let him sit with it for awhile..

You don't have to give him a consequence TODAY...

KEEP IT SIMPLE.."Contact with the OW..other women..is UNACCEPTABLE in our marriage. We need to implement a plan to insure that NO CONTACT is MAINTAINED for LIFE!!

But yes..as Loving is telling you, this needs to be done with CALMNESS and ASSERTIVENESS..you standing by your convictions...

Then, come back and tell us what he says..tell us what happens before going to the next step in YOUR PLAN...

ETA: Plan on him trying to get you off-track. This will be more of a one-way conversation. You stating your reality, not accepting any ifs ands or buts...just like telling your CHILD that he can't run into the street..which is actually a GREAT ANALOGY given how self-destructive an A is and childish ways of the WS...

"It's the way I feel and I keep doing the opposite because I can't R talk right now! 2 be honest, i fell like this was the way things were before A, why should they change now? Becuase I am? Not good enough! What's the motivation for him to change? He's getting a sweet deal! I keep telling myself I want this M, I want this M, but I can't stay with someone who's not O&H. Someone I can't lean on and who won't lean on me. Someone I can't tell my inner most thought too!"

This is from one of my old post after NC was broken. I had to read several pages before I found it.

WH is off tonight, MOF we will be leaving shortly to go on a ride with some friends. I plan to be very quiet with WH while we are out.

I will address the basics later tonight. Scary but NEEDS to be done.

I didn't speak this morning outside of to ask if he was working tonight. A few minutes later he went crawl in bed.

Well, I have to go get ready. mimi, thanks for adding that the consequences need not be set today...that helps relieve some of the pressure off of me.

LA-I don't think that was what I told myself...I'm just not sure!

I hope you can find HOPE from folks like me...

We have a MARRRIAGE that is BETTER than it was BEFORE the A...

Not only is our M better...

I'm a NEW PERSON...

Hey, Rin ....

Just checking in on you. I've been thinking about you.

I don't know for sure, I'd defer to the experts, but I think it's time to end the "no R talk" rule. I think it's time to start talking, a lot. Get you both on the same page and agreeing to the same plan.

I hope you have a nice ride today and can relax a little and clear your head. Enjoy some RC time together.

I think you're doing great.

Hang in there, hon.

-AmI.

((((Rin))))
Just saw the title change on your thread.

I haven't read everything yet. I'm thinking of ya...
I may not have time until I go to work tomorrow to catch up. (I hope work isn't too busy!)

Wish I was there to give you a hug in person and knock some sense into that man of yours! UUgghh! It seems he just doesn't get it! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

((((Rin))))

Just wanted to let you know that I am thinking of you. I was away this weekend and just caught up with your sitch.

I don't have any advice to give you. Mimi and LA are making some real good suggestions. Just wanted to offer my support.

I had a false recovery back in April - and it hurt just as much as D-day. I was just so happy that he wanted to come back that I let all of my boundaries slip the first week. I think that was about when you started posting to me.

Your personal progress has been amazing to watch. You're in a much better place this time around.

I know that my boundaries are staying in place this time and WH will carry half the responsibility for the success or failure of this M.

I know finances are a problem, but if at all possible, try to talk with Steve Harley for a plan.

Nothing but prayers and respect for you here Rin.

HI, All...Thank you for checking on me...I am doing well...alot of just being today...the committee in my head adjourned in a town 30 mins from home after I had told God that I knew he was with me and asked for a sign...

Not long after a motorcycle passed by us with three crosses on the luggage compartment...with that my head cleared and I was able to think...

I have decided that since C has been I will only put in what is put out...means the effort WH puts into the M; I will put in...nothing more...nothing less...

I will also write what I need for reconciliation...I will add what I need in recovery once reconciliation has been achieved...finally I will add a separation of property and schedule for the kids should C continue and I am focused into Plan B.

I think that WH should know all of his options here.

During the ride, I practiced O&H statements...the main one I practiced was "Just b/c I'm here does not change what is going on b/t us. Love is a choice, everyday I chose to love you, some days are harder than others."

Well, I didn't get the opportunity on the ride to to the drive-by; however, we went to pick up F and get some supper. On the way home, a song came on the radio saying "Hate me today, hate me tomorrow, hate me for all the things I did to you..."

WH said that it was a cool song but the gut in the video was ugly...I said that I never really paid attention to the words. So, I listens for awhile...then said "You know, I believe that love is a choice, everyday I chose to love you, but somedays are harder than others."

I was quiet and so was WH. MOF, nothing else was said until we pulled into the driveway about a minute later.

I said very little today, mostly acknowledged WH statements about things we saw, or answered question with brief answer...no more than one sentence.

Weird thing was on the way back, I prayed some more and when we got to the same city that I saw the crosses in there was a gorgerous rainbow...brillant in it's colors!

I pointed it out to WH and it really made me happy...I think my heart was even smiling!

Oh, WH was talking about his suspension on the way to get supper and was saying that he was not going to be walked on, steamrolled, or something else...I said I can understand that I learning not to be a doormat. WH continued with his conversation and I said nothing more.

So, what started out as a bad day for me, one full on anger to the point that I didn't want to touch WH and I was riding with him! One where I didn't want to talk to him, suddenly changed with seeing those crosses, my head cleared and that when I reminded myself that love was a choice.

That's when I decided that I would do effort in, effort out...I still believe that I can Plan A with this. I do have plans to explain to WH that until he is able to commit 100% to this M, stop handing out your phone number to women, and have NC for life, I will only put in the same amount of effort that he does, then, hand him my documentation I mentioned earlier. I will let WH know that once he commits 100%, I will match his efforts.

I ready to hear what you guys have to think.

O-

During my bike ride today I was thinking about RB and what I could say in response to some of the things that WH has said to me; however, I can't remember anything I said to myself. LMAO

Let's see...

1)You're right I am treating you like a child when you chose to act like one.

2)Sure I am just a jealous W, who doesn't want your adultry in our M.

3) I live to find things to make your life miserable when your making poor choices and destroying the M.

4) You're right you don't need a cell phone to make phone calls to the women that are helping you destroy our M.

5) You are an adult when you make decisions....I don't know.

Help!

Oh, I failed to mention earlier that WH was talking about the future today...about getting a welding machine and teaching me to weld. I said that with me being mechanically inclined, I would enjoy learning to weld. Besides should something happen to you, I want to be able to teach my boys everything that I can.

WH said that he hoped nothing happened to him.

He also talked about us getting a toyhauler to go camping with, so that we can bring the bike(s). I let him talk about that.

He also mentioned renting a movie and watching it with me. Then, he said that it wouldn't be a good idea because he felt that he/we would fall asleep. I agreed with him considering he got off of work at 6am, slept a few hours, and got up to go ride. WH is resently asleep..has been for about ten mins.

I mentioned these things b/c I feel that it's important you know them in helping my make good choices about our future.

Where does this mindset come from? You are letting HIM determine YOUR actions? How much you put into the marriage is YOUR CHOICE. You are being LED by a WH? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> IMO, it's important for your to be the best person that YOU can be. The best WIFE that YOU can be...That's how I began living my life at the beginning of PLAN A up until now...



I would focus on the basics as you spelled out yesterday... NC Letter, Rules of Recovery...I don't think there's reason to talk about property and schedule for the kids just yet.. Your H is talking about a FUTURE with you...in reference to his discussion on the bike. He's not interested in divorcing you. As I implied before, it may be necessary for YOU to take the LEAD in this RECOVERY. That's Ok if that's what is needed to save your marriage.



You said this again...

I don't understand this POV.

You are your own person. Be true to yourself. Stand up for what YOU believe in...BE THE BEST WIFE EVER even if he is WAYWARD..

You would take the chance of letting him bring you down to HIS LEVEL...That way the EVIL FORCES PREVAIL...Work towards the GOOD...BE THE LIGHTHOUSE....

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

mimi-
Thank you for responsing this morning and pointing out my weakness. It is a weak area.

The problem I am facing with him is his PA behavior. I DO what to be the BEST WIFE that I can BE.

I feel I need something to help influence him to take a leap. Can me being a LIGHTHOUSE to this?

I understand what you are saying about effort in effort out and I feel that you are right, besides that would be repeating the same behaviors that we have had in the past come to think about it. I will have to think more on it.

I was thinking of including a preperty settlement and schedule of the kids to say this is what's going to happen if you continue to cross my boundary of continued C and handing out your phone number to women.

I greatly appreicate your time and POV, it means the world to me. I think I understand now why you stand so firm, something that I was not able to be but I see as the days go by I tire more of the sitch which makes me want to stand firmer!

Here are the RULES that I keep harping about. These have been so key to the continued success of our marriage..I think, keys to the success of any marriage...

Before MBers, we had gone so way off course from this that I wasn't aware that following these rules is NORMAL and EXPECTED. I recall how I thought it was WEIRD that one of my colleagues could call her H at any time..even in the courtroom..and he is a lawyer....

The Four Rules for a Successful Marriage

Dang it! I can't think of the word that I want to use for what this is called..I know it's not part of MBers..you know me, "BY THE BOOK"..

Why not, talk to him about what you insist upon..NC LETTER, Recovery Rules,etc..if he does not comply, then PLAN B...which involves a PLAN B LETTER, etc....

ETA: I just got it. The word is ULTIMATUM...much to CONFRONTATIONAL..up in your face..for a LIGHTHOUSE....which OF COURSE you should be for him....

I threw out BREAD CRUMBS like the story of Hansel and Gretel to bring my H back home..he continues to talk about that analogy... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Thanks again, mimi! I have been trying to condense them for WH. (I'm wondering if I should call him WH or FHW, or DH?)

I have SAA at home and it would be a dream come true if he chose to read it. I have talked to him about the rules several times.

See I can call him anytime also and he will answer the phone, it has always been that way. The problem lies that which omission, example, failing to tell me that he's spoken with or ran into OW. That's he done or spoke with someone. H fails to see the important or is "forgetful" in telling me these things.

Has said several times that he did not do that with his parents, why should he do that with me. IMO, he has a fear of being controlled, at least from what I have been reading on PA behavior. In regards to that, I am trying to create a safe environment and change my own behaviors.

His opinion is that I treat him like a child, I am his parol officer, etc. This is true pre-A. So needless to say, it makes following the rules a little more difficult, but I am going to make a firmer stand in regards to every area of own M.

For the most part, H is a good man, he cares for us and is a wonderful provider. He feels that he should be allowed to have female friends and he does; however, as far as I'm concerned he is NOT ALLOWED to have female friends that I'm not friends with.

He doesn't see that this is how A's can start, talking about our M with them, etc. He has also mentioned that this is who he is and that he's not going to change, that he is stubborn, and has called himself an [censored].

This information may help with my sitch, I don't know.

Maybe HN/HN would be a better book for your H.

Doesn't feel so accusatory as SAA, but does definitely get into the meat of A's, how they start and how to prevent them. And delivers almost all of the same concepts as SAA, but from a slightly different angle.

Would he be wiling to read that book? Since it's not about recovering from an A, it's about how to make the marriage great and A-proof?

Just trying to throw some thoughts out there......

I really don't think your H understands WHY these things are important. Maybe I'm buying in to his "warden" excuse, but it sounds like he's making this about you controlling him as opposed to him wanting to protect you and the M, and placing that over the temporary things like chatting with OW. It seems like he doesn't see the harm in those, so when you object, he thinks you're trying to control him. There's got to be a way to show him how that's harming the M, and him, and his family, and his wife. Get his hackles raised into wanting to protect you as opposed to wanting to fight you for freedom.....

lol .... don't really know exactly how to go about doing that, though! If you find that secret, please share!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Rin,

WH KNOWS how A's start...he had one himself. He also knows that continued contact keeps alive the fantasy in his head...going by the store...talking to new woman...giving out his cell phone number...he knows all of that disrespects his marriage.

Up to you to act on your boundaries, dear friend.

Tell him you KNOW he's choosing to see his choices as an attack on the marriage...tell him you know he knows how harmful talking to OW, not reporting it immediately (owning it), and how protecting your feelings by lying by omission is CONTROLLING you and your choices.

Please, Rin...be done right now with Plan A...completely. Go to Plan B...he KNOWS...respect his fear, his choices...this is DDAY #3...too much. No more. He KNEW how important the NC Letter was...and he didn't choose to do it. He KNEW how important MC was and he didn't choose to do it. He KNOWS how important transparency is and he chose not to do it.

Please, Rin...understand your own fear is keeping you from enforcing your boundaries. Hold that fear and tell it all about respecting reality, living in it, and that you are respecting your WH's choices and you are choosing your own actions...not reacting.

You promised yourself after believing there was NC for over 30 days the last time that he had to do all those things and he didn't...he chose not to. To ask for them again, well, is a travesty to you, your self and your marriage.

You didn't cause this...going to Plan B won't control or cure this...this is you doing what you promised, though you fear, acting on your own promise to yourself.

I'll respect whatever you decide, Rin. Your honesty is what matters most to me...if you fear too much, I'll understand. My heart aches for you...and your emotions are in shock...because I don't believe you thought he would break NC again...you kept saying that he didn't see she could do anything for him...I forget the phrase...that didn't protect you from him. She won't protect you from him. What he thinks of her won't...because he lies...to you, about you and by omission.

He does.

He will continue.

How do I know? Because you don't enforce your boundaries. He'd rather control you before you controlled him.

Break that cycle.

Listen and repeat with choice and DO NOT engage in any refuting at all...because his stuff is just his. Awful, yucky, foggy and twisted. Right now, he's mucked up.

He is.

I care about you, Rin.

LA

Rin,

I am so sorry for what has happened.


During our last MC session this topic came up. The MC asked my FWW what she liked about me. Her answer was he is very smart and he can always think on his feet. It seems so easy for him to analyze a situation and come up with an answer. He knows more about finances, he knows how to cook, he is just very smart and I lean on him for that. However it is also the thing that bugs me the most. If I want to make a decesion he always has to involve himself. He is controlling. LMFAO.

Now the MC asked me what I thought about that. I said I don't want that anymore. He said what, I said to be involved in all of the decesions. I could give a rats [censored] less about what type of cereal she buys or if she should buy the 6 pack of gatorade or the big bottle. I do however want to be involved and discuss big decesions. I also brought up the fact she frequently puts responsiblities off on me by saying "you are better at that then me". So she puts herself in the child role. I said many times I have assured her she could do it only for her to tell me she couldn't. Because he felt like maybe she slacked off because I was critical of her. She admitted to doing that.

The only decesions my FWW wants to make on her own are the ones that are only for her. IE going to NY etc. If she decides she wants something that is just for her and it effects me and the kids I want to discuss it.

Now he asked me how I felt about the dynamic. I said before the A it didn't bother me. After the A it did a lot. He said before the A what did you feel. I said I felt like I was fulfilling my obligation as a husband and a father. I had the I can take care of everything mentality. It gave me a sense of pride. He said why did the A change that. I said because the A showed me she didn't respect or appreciate that. I decided that part of our M was broken. I figured out a long time ago my FWW wanted nothing to do with decesions unless it was something she wanted. She would brow beat me until I let her make the decesion. Then I would have to deal with the consequences of her bad decesion.

Then I just said she wants to be a cake eater.

So for you the answer is fixing the dynamic, which I do not believe you can do on your own.


Well maybe if someone else sat down and told him it is not acceptable he may do something.

Like I told my FWW. If you want to act single, get single. What he is doing is acting single with you.

I use the old HL sniff test. Given the entire situation you are in, would he be ok if you were doing what he is doing? If the answer is no then he is being a hypocrite and you should call him on it.

(((Rin))))
It is not ok for your WH to date. Thats what my FWH did he dated. He had a female friend and they did things together, going for a drink, talking on the phone. Dating. I think EA are difficult for WS to accept responsibility for. Its like if they are not having penis/vagina intercourse so its not an affair. The EA leads to the PA. He is seeking attention from women. He is looking to someone else to fill his EN.

In one of the sessions I had w/ SH he mentioned something about the A happened because WH failed to protect the M. I'm not sure how you get them to that thinking. But he needs to realize that YOU are his wife and if he wants to keep you he needs to protect you and your M.

(((Rin)))sending love and support

I don't have much time this afternoon..but I read your post about your H's rationalizations and justifications.

IMO, he wants you to be accepting of his "PLAYER" lifestyle. He sounds like he wants to have his FUN AND GAMES at the expense of his marriage and wants you to go along with this. This is not about you being CONTROLLING. It's about you standing up for what's right...the way a marriage HAS to be if it is a MARRIAGE.

I agree with LA..PLAN B if he does not agree to the BASICS as we have been discussing...

However, PLAN B does not involve you spelling out to him ULTIMATUM style about child custody, etc. He will use this in his mind his RATIONALIZATION of you as being CONTROLLING, etc.

Hi, guys, I haven't read your other posts and I'm not up for talking right now! However, I will come back soon!

Thank you for all of your support. I may be on later tonight.

All I have to say is that WH burned all of my books at lunch, SAA, HNHN, PA MAN...all of them.

I love all of you...have a good day.

What??????

He BURNED your books?????? That sounds like a total intimidation tactic. He's trying to bully you into just letting him do what he wants to do.

{{{{{{{Rin}}}}}}}

I'm sending you all the hugs and support that I can muster. Be strong!

I agree with LA and Mimi .... sounds like it's time for Plan B.

But go into it with a good, solid plan .... know exactly what you're doing, first. Don't rush into anything, make sure you're totally prepared.

I'm thinking of you!! Hang in there.


-AmI.