Thank you so much schoolbus for your kindness. I mentally prepared a point-by-point rebuttal to your post (which was brilliant, of course <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />) but decided to wait. I will "stay with you" for now. Thank you.

09,

Good call, Stick with School Bus. Your H really does love you you know. And in my humble opinion SB's post is right on target.

Look at some of the other posts, from WWs who are working on themselves and their Ms using MB, they are proactive and aggressively working on repairing the damage they have done and their BSs are fighting them every step of the way. Please don't do that. I am a BS and it has taken a long time to get my WW on board and working the issues of our M and her A.

The path you both have chosen, rebuilding using MB, is a rough and very hard path to follow and turns into a very tough road to follow, but the rewards are well worth it. You and MU can make the road a little smoother by working together to achieve the common goal of having a better, more loving, and fullfilling marriage.

Good luck 09, and hang in there, it will get better!

Dearest 090886:

Who are you and what did you do with my wife? She never forgets ANYTHING! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

And, as you know, I’m always more than willing to help you with your “drug problem”.

I must say: I think your third option is a real winner. Those first two don’t hold a candle. Thank you for coming up with that option. 24 hours ago, I wouldn’t have thought it would ever be one. Not from your standpoint anyway. We’ve already seen the Holy Grail. We’ve held it in our hands and sipped from it. Years ago. Remember? We know it’s there. We just need to find it again. I’m up for the quest. Just let me grab my fedora.


Mr. Goodstuff wrote: “Why should your wife think that you won’t have another affair, say in a year or two?”

Dear Mr. G: The reasons are numerous. To say that I have grown over the years is a gross understatement. Life experiences and time have played a tremendous role in shaping me, as have the birth of our two wonderful sons and the continually growing love for my wife. Also, I am a product (actually a BY-product) of a failed marriage that ended due to infidelity and I have no desire, ever, to see my sons go through something like that.

I have matured. This A happened 16 years ago. 16 years ago, I was around 22-23 years old. The A was (and still is) the only person besides my W with whom I have had actual sex. After some self-evaluation, I believe a contributing factor for me doing it was the fact that I had never experienced anything/one other than my soon-to-be wife. I longed, perhaps, for “different”. I experienced “different”. It was nice. It wasn’t better. I love my wife. I love being with my wife. I love the thought of being with my wife the rest of my life. And only my wife. “Different” is not all it’s cracked up to be. Trust me. I know. I’ve been there. I have the scars. I don’t need any more of them.

Thank you Messdup- that was perfect.

You’ve been telling me for years that you’ve changed, but I had trouble seeing it. Today I finally do. I really appreciate your attentiveness and concern for me. I’m so pleasantly surprised and grateful that you posted here- I know introspection and self-analysis is not your favorite thing! Two years ago you wouldn’t have done this. But reading your words here is really helping me, as well as the input from everyone. I believe you. I hope the process is helping you too.

It’s past noon, and I’m still clean and sober <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> As promised, I have gathered the last of my drug paraphernalia and will shred it with you tonight.

Wear a fedora if you like, but please leave the armor off (you’re much more attractive without it). I’ll bring two coconuts to bang together (quick, name the movie). I’m ready for our quest. I love you too.

You two are going to make me cry!

Please, be a MB poster child. We could use a great success story around here.

09, I understand how you feel like he missed his chance at his soul mate-but somewhere you know that is bunk. She would still nag him to take out the trash and probably clip her toenails in a most irritating fashion, or some other human fault would surface. Nothing worse than having your image of you soul mate tarnished - you know?

messed-up, glad to see a husband here willing to pull up the boots and get to work. I am not familiar with you or your wife, sorry to say. Glad to make your aquaintance.

Both of you have a remarkable opportunity ahead of you. You have both had up some barriers to a deeper level of intimacy. Now that you both know that the other wants to reach the next level - YOWZA! Nothing compares to that feeling of being totally in love, opening your eyes and realizing it is your spouse that you are head over heels in love with. How great is that - your children's parents can be madly in love and truly bonded.

Keep us posted!

ditto what Jean said.

all the best to you both!!

09,

I'm a recently BS. Been married 31 years, and my FWS had an A with a "friend" last fall.

Needless to say, I was totally blindsided. Instant replay of something that happened to me many moons ago....another man, another lifetime ago when I was very young, before I even met my H.

Anyway, my FWH didn't love the OW. It was sexual exploration, a mid-life crisis, looking for something "different" and OW was there and willing. He also had problems with porn. Sounds like messdup and my H have some things in common, my H is just older. The OW and my FWH had planned that they would have their little fling, never tell anyone, and I would never find out. Everything would just be for sexual fun, porn, happy fun stuff.

I found out.

That night, many things changed - and I can't say it was easy for me. Your FWH is much more willing to talk about things than mine! Mine wanted to just move on - say he was sorry, and for me to "get over it", save the marriage, go on! Not that easy. In your case, you have messdup, and he's right there, and here too. Best case scenario I can think of.

He's done so many things right.

Porn in trash
Photos in trash
Expressed desire to do whatever it takes to make things right
Expressed undying love for you
Expressed true remorse
Understands radical honesty
Life is open book and will answer your questions

Next, where do you go from here?

I would say that if he is still in any type of contact with OW, that he write a NC letter, you review and mail it. That is a good place to start. He will feel better, and so will you.

Then, look at your ENs, and slowly start talking about what you want your marriage to look like. What you really want it to be. Because from what it looks like to me, you both love each other dearly. Somewhere in there, you lost touch with each other and how to meet each other's needs. What kind of marriage do you see for yourselves? This is a NEW marriage now, think of it that way. You can make it whatever you want it to be.

Get HNHN.
Read SAA.

Consider MC, to help you get to a point where you understand why you were where you were in your EA, and why he was where he was in your M with porn, etc. There are reasons why you both drifted.

We're coming up on 10 months out from d-day. I'm recovering from the pain. There are plenty of us out here who are doing it. You're going to cry. You're going to get mad at him. At the very same time that you want to just punch him in the stomach, you will want to hold on to him for comfort. This is all normal, and you won't understand any of it. It is a roller coaster ride that you didn't buy a ticket for, and you can't get off until it runs out of gas.

But know in your heart that his love for you remains. It glows in every word he writes. I'm old, but even I can see it without my glasses.

Stay with that thought. He loves you.

SB

So it appears that your wife and you are just now learning what real relationships actually entail. The rewards from the deep and personal connection with your spouse can last a lifetime. The trick is to learn the value of that connection and then to nurture and care for it so that it can endure and grow. If you both keep your eye on the ball then that is preciously what you will have. It takes a good measure of maturity to realize the dream. With that maturity comes the realization that neither wins nor loses alone. With apologies to the young crowd here, a twenty-one year old has little maturity

I would like both of you to keep this thought at the forefront as you build your relationship, “It matters little to what went before as compared to what is NOW”. All of the miscues, poor choices, self interests and all the rest serve only as the example of the pit falls to avoid in the future. As ignorance is merely the lack of knowledge it seems pointless to cast blame for something that neither knew nor understood. The foundation that you establish in the weeks and months to come will fuel your desire to extend acts of love towards each other. In the basic Harley terms that will surface many opportunities to make “love bank” deposits. You will see that the term “love” will best express itself in the many ways that you act towards one another instead of something that happens to you, i.e. you each make your love by the things you do.

By accepting the concept that it is the two of you that are in control of how the marriage recovers you give yourselves the gift of empowerment. Decide your future and then act and do the things that reflect your desires.

At this point I am not sure that I want to comment on the three items that 09 outlined as her reasons to know that everything concerning Messedup occurring in the past 16 years was a lie. I think there may be much to consider in that position. I might suggest that 09 further examine those statements by expounding on them with specifics. I understand 09’s feelings but feelings do not always reflect reality. If all that is said is the complete reality of what “was” then it becomes difficult to understand how the marriage had lasted the past 16 years. There is something more then just the children that have taken you to this point today. You are missing something, what can it be? Please think about this.

Chins up!
Mr. G

Any Monty fans should be able to get through this..
A sense of humor always helps <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

By the way, OW in my case was my best friend (or so I thought). Sort of a double whammy.
It wasn't for a week, it was for a year+.

I did talk to her a few times after D-day to try and understand - I don't regret I did, but I got some real foggy stuff out of her too.. It just showed me how people can get stuck in some sort of phantasy, making their wrongs right somehow, in their minds anyways.

Thank you Jean and FinallyLearning- Messdup and I would very much like to become a success! Thank you for the encouragement and kind words. Our quest will be interesting, that's for sure. We will post the highs and lows on this thread. The help from the community here, I'm quite sure, has shaved years of therapy off our recovery already! Thank you everyone for helping us. The past few days have been a bit traumatic for both of us.

Hi Schoolbus- I'm sorry that 2 men have done this to you. Same for me- I met Messdup after breaking up with an unfaithful boyfriend (the same one I had the EA with, 18 years later). I thought Messdup would be different- he promised me he would never hurt me the way my boyfriend had. Your husband probably promised the same to you. I see that he is also struggling with cancer. You must be under tremendous stress, yet your messages here are so full of peace and grace. I want to be just like you when I grow up! Thank you for "holding my hand" though this. I wish you could know how much your messages have helped me.

Contact with Messdup's OW: we are still hashing that out. I believe that it is dead, there has been no contact for 10 years. I still would like to talk to her. I would like confirmation that Messdup really, actively, chose me. My gut feeling is still that he wanted her, but the logistics were against it.

Messdup wants to address one part of your message: where you say "Your FWH is much more willing to talk about things than mine! Mine wanted to just move on - say he was sorry, and for me to "get over it", save the marriage, go on! "

This is SO HIM (Messdup). Up until last week, he was saying the same things to me. If you want, you can read one of my old threads (FWW needs help with NC)- I talk about my husband's unwillingness to figure out the underlying problem. Just Learning gave me some really good advice about how to have conversations with my husband... his advice worked and my husband confessed the reason behind everything, and our recovery has taken a turn for the better.

The conversations are a blur to me, but hopefully Messdup can tell you what I said to him to finally open up. He will have time later today to write to you.

My family needs my attention, so I will come back later as well. I want to respond to Mr. Goodstuff and Brownhair- there is so much to talk about.

Thank you everyone!
'09

Here's the thread with Just Learning's advice:

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/sho...part=3&vc=1

09,

Thanks for the link, I'm up to date now.

Glad he's talking. We have a lot in common! My H didn't want to talk at all, just "get over it - I didn't love her, she didn't love me, it was just for sex, something different". Man, I just wanted to punch him in the stomach.

It took months to get the story out of him. But the whole time he was remorseful, repentant, and had NC. There was no withdrawal, it was over the moment I caught him. He never wanted a divorce. I was a lot like you - I thought of suicide or divorce, but woke up the next morning somewhere in the middle. Thinking I would work on it, fix it, and somehow forgive.

So far, that plan is working. I thought the forgiving would be the hardest part. Turns out, that part seems easiest.

Forgetting about it, that's not easy. Don't think I ever will. And I understand about your questioning the love part. Did he love her then, did he choose you out of convenience, a financial strategy, etc.? Does he still fantasize about her? I had the same questions.

I have them from time to time still. I won't lie about that. These questions come from fear and insecurity. Over time, they will lessen. Let him fill you with love. Let him heal your wounds. But you have to let him in, don't forget to do that part. Sometimes, it is very easy to stay with the hurt part and not let the healing take place. Be careful that you don't begin to think that the only way to get love from messdup is to be hurt. You can get love by being strong, too - don't forget that. Over time, you will get there. Let him love you back to the strong woman you were once. I found out that I was a lot stronger than I thought I was. More forgiving, too.

His statement that the A was about sex is very true. For me, it was very difficult to understand. For him, it made perfect sense. We are not the same people, and I can't attribute my emotions and my reasoning to him. Once I figured that out, I was able to get past the idea that he didn't have to be in love with her. That was something that I was putting into the mix, not something HE was putting there. For some people, love and sex are not necessarily related. Strange but true.

He loves you.
You said in the link that he loves you. Click back on it, and you listed all the reasons, all the wonderful things you saw in messdup. What a list. All the reasons you wanted to work out your marriage. All the reasons that you thought he was a great husband. Those things are still true. He's even willing to post here. You've got the makings of a great recovery.

Hang in there.

SB

Schoolbus-
Yes, you are right. He loves me. I need to let that wash over me like holy water.

A question: is it important to forget? Messdup and I talked about that this weekend. I was shredding a letter from my OM, and Messdup said he wished we could shred our own hurtful past just as easily.

My answer to him was: Those that forget history are doomed to repeat it. I don't think it would be wise to forget. It's an important lesson, right?

What do you think about that?

Hi again Mr. G-
I want to tell you again how much your first post on this thread meant to us. My husband has felt such shame for so long. You gave him his life and his hope back. You are amazing. Thank you for being here!

I read your second post three times; I understand the first part but not the second part. In your first part, you are asking us to let go of the past and concentrate on making the future better. Messdup is REALLY good at this- I'm REALLY NOT <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I tend to over-analyze everything; it turns to rumination instead of analysis and I get stuck.

I do see that Messdup chose me about 3 years ago ~2003 I think. At this time, I had piled up so much resentment and hurt that I gave up on our marriage (EAs, porn, no sex for months, turning his back when I was seriously ill, etc). A year later, in 2004, I was in a full-blown affair with an ex-boyfriend. When Messdup noticed I stopped trying, I think maybe it was his wakeup call and he began to change slowly. That was his choice- he chose me and our marriage. I see that, and it should be enough for me. I hope soon I will think that it is.

So the second part of your message-
"I might suggest that 09 further examine those statements by expounding on them with specifics."

I'm not sure what you mean. Specifics on why I think he doesn't love me? Why I think the first 12 years of our marriage was false?

Thanks again Mr. G. Bless you.

Hi brownhair- yes, it is important to laugh. Messdup is a funny guy, one of the reasons I married him. He makes me smile.

I still do want to contact his OW. I think she'll be out of the fog by now- it was so long ago. I basically want confirmation of Messdup's version of what happened. I want to know that he's being honest, after all the years of lies.

Messdup will not block me from contacting her, but he wants me to consider that I may risk ruining her marriage (she was engaged to her now-husband at the time of their affair). He also emphasises that he didn't have to tell me- since he took such a great risk, he must be telling the truth. He wonders why it's so important to me. I don't know- I guess I'm a "details" person and want to know everything, so that I can recognize his weak spots and warning signs in case it comes up again.

Have a good evening everyone-
'09

09,

I think I mean forgetting what I should forget. Not the bigger lesson, but the ruminations. We have a lot in common, you and I. I think about things, and then in the worrying, think of worse-case scenarios. They become almost real.........then, I worry about the worst that could happen. When in fact, that is NOT what has happened.

I was like you in that I thought that the A negated all of the years prior to that. All of the years of our M. That wasn't true. My shock from the A, and my sadness overwhelmed me. My reaction was that I felt he didn't, couldn't, love me and do this to me. Therefore, my reasoning was that the M was invalid for 30 years, it was all a waste, etc.

I rewrote history in my mind, because it was the only way to make sense of things - the only way to make my feelings match what was going on, what had happened. He had to have fooled me for 30 years.

He didn't.

He loved me for 30 years.


He was just an idiot for a couple of months, chasing tail, chasing a fantasy. A big, stupid fool. Risking everything he had, everything we had together. Lost in a fog of ego strokes and lust, porn, sex, and who knows what. He will tell you the same thing. He cannot explain it all, and he is over 50. Can someone 21 explain it? I doubt that. I chased guys when I was 20. I had no earthly idea why - it felt good. I would have expected my H of nearly 60 to have more sense, but who knows. What matters at this point is that we can talk about what happened, and what we want to do about it. We have the foundation that we love each other. And that I can forgive. What I want to forget is the details, the movies in my head. I want the pain to fade, to forget that first moment that I found out. That pain, I really want to forget.

You and messdup, well, you're a little different. You both have strayed in your M. There's enough blame to go around, so to speak. It spans many years, and there's a lot to gather up and sort through. You both have the W and the B part to deal with - both sides of the coin. Seems like you might be able to support one another at times, and lean on one another at other times. The key is for both of you not to be down at the same time, I guess!

I want to ask - how much of your worrying about his loving you vs. his loving her is related to your EA? How much of your worrying about the previous 12 years is related to the EA?

SB

Hi schoolbus:

In reading lots of posts here from "old timers" it seems like the pain fades after one year and things are much better after 2 years. I hope that it goes quickly for you!

In answer to your question: How much of my EA is wrapped up in wondering whether my husband loves me... Need to be careful in my answer. As you know, the affair is 100% my fault. I chose to do it, several times I chose to do it. I take full responsibility.

My EA happened because I gave up trying to make my marriage better. I withdrew from Messdup, threw in the towel. I didn't see anything special or worth working for. I felt that he didn't love me, and I also felt that I no longer loved him.

I do warn betrayed spouses in my posts that they are vulnerable to an affair of their own, because they are hurting so much. I think anyone is capable of it. I never thought I'd do something like that, but I did.

There is plenty of blame to go around in my marriage, but also plenty of understanding. I told Messdup the other day that if I hadn't had an affair, I would be much less likely to work on recovery. I can see how it can be just a stupid mistake. It's all twisted up- sorry I'm not making much sense. Hopefully Messdup can clarify (I feel like I'm highjacking his thread!). He has a big presentation due today, so he's been buried under work this weekend. He will be back soon.

Dear 09,

I'm back (temporarily)! I decided to take a quick break from my presentation to see what's been going on here lately and I'm glad (as usual) that I did. Unfortunately, I don't have time to go through all the points but I at least wanted to comment on one you made: Your EA was by no means 100% your fault. Granted, I didn't take a gun to your head and make you do it, but I sure could have done more to make you NOT want to. I'm not sure what the percentages work out to and, of course, we'll never really know (who's counting anyway?), but your end is certainly less than 100%. If I had been a better, more undertanding, honest and forthcoming husband, something tells me we could have worked things out a lot sooner. Of course, as you mention, had you not had your own EA, perhaps you might not have been so understanding now. The world may never know. I hate to admit it, but I guess I have the OM to thank for us getting stronger today.

Either way... I can't remember being happier than I am right now. Not anytime in the recent past anyway.

Aw shucks you two!

09,

You got what I was thinking - the EA is wrapped up in your fears, it's all tangled together. True enough.

Messdup and 09,
The blame thing - well, I kind of see it like keeping score.

At first, in a relationship, nobody's keeping score. We do things for each other because we love each other. Loving gestures, gifts, touches, compliments, and services flow back and forth with abandon. But it seems like when the relationship goes slightly sour, our scorekeeper takes over. It becomes a daily challenge to keep track of who did what for whom. I think that is probably the one of the first indicators that something is going awry in a marriage (IMHO).

I don't think we can keep score in a marriage. It's too hard, and it makes for hard feelings. Besides, things will NEVER be even. One person will always have more chicken on her plate, the other more macaroni (you know what I mean).

And I don't think we can really assign a percentage of blame in affairs. Even though my FWH made the choice to sleep with OW, I have some ownership in it. I'm not talking about the sex part, I'm talking about the things that led up to that. Yes, he made that choice - but had our relationship been different prior to the A, it never would have happened to begin with. And it is there that my blame resides. I accept that, and it is there that I have assessed my own need for change and have addressed those needs. Messdup sees that in himself too - a good post! Messdup, this is the hard part for the BS, because we see the time we wasted not doing what we should have and could have been doing. All those years......but now, I have been given a second chance to fix what I have neglected for too long. I won't waste another moment. I know that you learned this lesson the hardest way possible too.

But a scorecard isn't necessary - suffice it to say, we all screwed up. Big time.

Now, let's clean up this mess!

Where do we start?

Mop, broom, dustpan......?

Nope. Here, you start with forgiveness.

I will wait with fresh kleenex.

SB