Schoolbus, I had a long response that got lost. I will repost tomorrow. Thank you for taking the time.

The one MBer that I think has this sort of marriage down to a science is BrambleRose!

I could not do what she does ... and she does it very well

and.... she's happy & enjoys her life!

Pep

Yeap, I agree Pep. Rosie Rawks.

I have the utmost respect for her and learned tons from what she went thru and how she handled her situation.

This is from your thread "Willard Harley is a smart man" Every time I read that thread I get something new out of it.

SB, I promised a response. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> No, I do not believe he has that inner strength. I know that early in our M he was a man of good morals. He did not smoke, drink, swear and was never unkind. He however did always have this sort of "dual allegiance" going on. It has always been something against me whether it was a friend, a job, a hobby it didn't matter. When our DD was born it got worse. He ran from the responsibility by being busy with work and other things to distract him from home. My nagging made it worse. When Dd was 2.5 years old I had an A. I chose the wrong answer to our problems. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> So yes, there has always been an issue of what you called opposite forces. After 2.5 years of this A he did choose the M. He could not sustain the duality any longer, it was killing him. I do believe he chose the safer option. A life already established, his home, and his COM who do need him very much and who suffered greatly during the last two years.

You asked what can I personally withstand? I don't know. I have withstood far more than I personally thought I was capable of. I do not believe I can withstand one more restart of the A. My reaction to stress these days is extreme so I am likely pretty close to my limits of what I can take. I have absorbed most of this for the sake of my children. My decisions must be based on what is best for my COM. I cannot throw the needs of my children aside for the OC. I would accept OC into our family but not at the expense of my children. My children and I are victims of my H and the OW. So is the OC. Who's needs are more important? To OW the OC is more important, but she is not the one making decisions for MY life nor is she the one my H made vows with. In fact IMHO, if OW was truly interested in the best interest of the OC she would back off and let my H be the father WITH our family. What is best for the OW means NOTHING to me. NOTHING. She chose this life for herself. I owe her nothing.

My oldest DS grew up fatherless until my H came along when DS was 8. My DS is now 23 and a very fine young man. Not an ideal situation, but not something I can help. The two selfish people that created that child are responsible for this mess. If the OW had her way, MY COM would grow up without an intact family. Is that the right thing? There is a poster on the p/c board who met the OC when he turned of age. He was not angry at his father for being NC. He understood the dynamics and knew his mother. He did not seem to hold it against them. I can only hope either the OW marries someone decent to raise the OC or she backs off her stance of contact only without me involved so the OC will not grow up without a father. OR my H finally steps up and takes her to court.

FF - my thoughts and prayers are with you. Interesting subject - one that will help others, methinks.

renter-renter, eh?

What is it when you live in the same house with your X for the kids? I have been told to get moving and let the hammer fall - but my kids are thriving in a house with both parents. XW is either not active, or so far underground it is undetectable (I think the latter..), so the kids are not seeing any negativity that I can tell. (who knows what XW may say to them about me - but I do not think she badmouths me. 7 yo's have a way of reporting EVERYTHING) ("Daddy said it was OK to pee outside...")

For me - it is worth it to stick it out for the kids. But my future is tenuous. I do not know if we will all be living together in two months. But for now - they are better off, I have decided. Do I want to date - not yet. I never was good at it. I am afraid of it. Do I want reconciliation - no. But if XW ever came to me with that request and was willing to follow MB (cold day in heII...)- that would be best for my kids.

FF - thanks for your friendship. You have been an encouragement to me. I will pray for you at this time.

Like the vets say - you do not have to make any decisions now.

I will pray for wisdom and peace.

far

Thank you, FAR. You have been an encouragement to me, too.

My xh had an oc with his gf...whom got deliberately preggers as you fully know. What had happened? Our divorce wasn't going fast enough for the OW...my xh had some moments free of fog and did not want imho, it to really happen...the D that is...but she pushed and pushed and the only way to break us up for good for her to get pregnant to make herself "permanent" in our eyes.

It crushed me...my heart...my life. But I do not have any resentment towards the child. I think she is a sweet little girl. I hurt for her, having such a low life scum sucking mother that she does though...she has two half brothers...how sad is that? There are 3 kids caught in this sitch...my son, the Wistress' son from a prior bf, and her daughter with my xh. Too much dna gene diversity if you ask me for peace.

It was for me the nail in the coffin. Funny thing though...I am so kind around the child. I am sweet and actually the child likes me. My son on one poignant moment...brought her over to me and said "L, this is my mommy. She is very very sweet and I love her very much." The baby since then follows me around and probably wonders who I am? But that's enough.

For you...it is this...I really wish you could have separate contact (totally without ow around) with the oc. I think it is possible for you to actually accept this child. What is this sitch anyway? It is TWO STUPID GROWNUPS BEING RECKLESS..IT IS NOT ABOUT THE BABY AT ALL. The baby is caught in the crossfire. And any baby is imho, a real miracle...regardless of how it took its first breath.

Please make an effort to do have contact...with the child, but not with the ow. Contact should be in form of only parenting..with you two as a united front in parenting and with her to arrange parenting issues only. do not GIVE THE OW AN INCH...OW WILL TAKE A MILE...THEY ARE LEECHES...THE OW WHO GET PREGGERS AND ARE THE MOST TOXIC OF ALL THE OW OUT THERE...WHY? THEY ARE MASTER MANIPULATORS...of men...and of life when they roll the dice and play the kid card.

If your M is to survive, imho, it will be only after total acceptance of the oc in your life. he will be there. Why have the kids ask questions? Let them know. Let your family and even the oc heal together..to heck with the ow...send her her precious god almighty check...and let her go corrupt somebody else's life...and remember...you may be the only real positive person in the life of the oc.

I realized that too. If the wistress wifey flakes out like I think she is (my son says she hangs on internet all day...and I think she's herself having finally an affair of her own)...that the oc will be around my ds even more...and I am ok with that. I might end up being the only positive grown up around that child...who is sweet and just an innocent child caught in the crossfire between two very selfish grownups.

I think it's important to remember that this child is not Oliver Twist sitting on your doorstep..this child HAS a custodial parent who is fully capable of providing for it.

There are children the world over who have only one parent and manage to survive and thrive regardless...is it the ideal..of course not...but when the ALTERNATIVE is a situation that I personally believe is *inherantly* sick, twisted, and morally confusing and can not by any means be otherwise I would opt for the single parent solution even for my OWN children.

All of the marriage recoveries that I have seen go the distance that involved an OC...also involved the nonparticipation of either the BS/FWS or the OP. The triangle does not work..it just does not.

I am very happy to hear you say that you have no responsibility to the OW..and I'd like to hear you someday extend that to her child. Allowing yourself to accept responsibility for things that are *utterly* outside of your circle of control is crazy making and pointless.

Yes, the OW chose..absolutely insisted on creating the circumstances of her childs birth.

She also created the terms under which she is willing to allow the father contact with that child.

This is not a woman who is interested in her childs welfare as a first priority on this issue...it is a woman who is still in the fight [interesting side note in favor of NC with OW/OC is that while she is invested in this fight...she is necessarily less capable as a parent...if withdrawl/acceptance and true death of the affair were to actually occur...she would be able to redirect her focus and become a "better" mother...this is just not possible while she is in the affair cycle for *either* OW or WH..they are both compromised as a result of the sickness and addictive nature of thier relationship] and intends to take something away from YOUR children who ARE your responsibility and I think we can all agree that your WH..father of chaos...is a completely useless foot dragging muddy eyed addict and will not be able to make decisons that protect anyone or anything but his own momentary comfort at any expense.

He'll promise you and he'll promise her and he'll not lay and enforce any real boundaries of his own conviction and free will and will instead blame you and alternatively her any time he is currently either feeling constricted by the life he has created or has allied himself [temporarily] with one of his "families".

I fully expect him to hop back and forth between you for the indefinite future unless he experiences some internal changes of great magnitude...this is possible..but not likely.

While I can understand wanting to maintain stability for your children..I would ask what the definition of stability is for you...because I think we both know that his NC with OW/OC is a temporary structure...and I really believe personally that children having to watch their parents spin the drain is far more upsetting than having to move to another home...especially if the point of that move is to guarantee that you are able to maintin relative stability with or without WS participation because that is one of those elements that you simply can not control.

He hasmade a decision for the moment to have NC with OW/OC...which means that under the right pressure [ie resumption of the affair] he will make a similar choice with regard to you and COM.

Sauce for the goose...and this man is just not reliable...he can not be depended on.

So while I have no specific advice...I think it vary important to take honest stock of the things that are within your control and make a clear list of them...and then make decisions with that list in mind...if your decision is to protect COM first then your choices have to reflect that...make sure that you aren't relying on things that are variable and outside of your control as givens..they may not be.

I am wondering here...is the A really over? If the A is not over, then you do need NC. But at some point...this child does need to be included in the family if healing of the M is to occur. The baby cannot help his mother is a stupid manipulative beast...and the baby can't help who is dad is either.

This isn't about who's right who's wrong. In the long run, if the A is truly over and recovery is to begin, this child should be considered....really considered. Imagine having the hurt of never knowing your dad. Imagine being denied having a father in your life all because your mom did something horrendous...but in truth? BOTH OF THEM DID SOMETHING HORRENDOUS. Not the baby's fault.

I absolutely hurt for the little ones in this sitch. They don't ask for it. They didn't want it. And it is not a perfect situation by any means...but it is what it is. And you either accept it (only after the A is dead...truly dead and with rock solid boundaries regarding parenting issues w/ow) or you seal off your conscience and make your WH not face his responsibilities by being a father.

Again, none of this imho should be addressed only and until when the affair truly ends.

Is it truly over/ If the ow is using baby as bait, then this contact sadly cannot be for the time being.

This affair has to end first.

Has to.

A marriage cannot survive if the OW is still actively trying to break up your family and using her position as mommy to do so.

I hate it for this little boy. I am so saddened for him...and for you and your children.

So many suffer besides us in an affair...our kids do especially.

I am just angered at the WH's out there who forget to wrap their weenies and think only of their pleasure and how weenie wrap might deny them that temporary pleasure? They don't think with their brain at all...they don't think they are hurting far more than their wives...they hurt their kids that already exist and they hurt the possible babies they may be making with the mistresses!

It makes me want to barf.

I have huge anger towards men like this. But your WH needs to man up to this. First he needs to end the affair. Secondly, you need a lawyer to set up rock solid boundaries for contact with the oc according to YOUR wishes...and have cs set in stone. So there is limited contact with the ow and no surprises...and a rock solid custody rotation.

What your WH did requires nothing less than rock solid boundaries and he needs to embrace HIS involvement and his causing this all to happen. The OW didn't impregnante herself...HE HELPED TOO! And this man had control in his life...he was not some helpless hapless dude who couldn't control his self...he always had the power to say no. And he has the power to stand up and do the right things for all his kids...and especially for his wife. He has to do those things...

If it were my H? First affair would have to end...completely with no relapses. Then the requirements I stated above. If he couldn't do them even if the A was over...it would be the nail in the coffin for my M.

Peachy,

When there is no NC...is the affair *ever* really over?

Not according the info we have via Harley.

I agree with you that WH is just as responsible as OW...but FF is responsible for *neither* of them.

She can not make the affair be over..can not change OWs agenda or even be sure of it...can not provide anything for OC that OW does not specifically endorse [and everything that OW endorses set OW/WH as a family that excludes FF] etc etc etc.

It just keeps going and going.

Her H has demonstrated over a period of YEARS that he is not capable of doing what is required and being the sort of man who can be trusted.

I don't think the A is over..I think it's an intermission.

FF is responsible for HER children..not for her WHs children and OWs children..or the neighbors children or....you see what I'm saying?


She doesn't have custody of this child..she does not have the ability to create for it what she might wish to...what she does have is an unworkable situation that acts as a detriment to ALL of the children [and the adults too].

FF can not coerce reality to fit her will..she can not change OWs will and she can not make her H be someone else.

Hey I had a thought..

You know there is a poster who is mostly on EN who is brilliant with boundary advice...myschae.

Maybe you could ask for her help.

I think boundaries are a huge issue here..and something she just wrote seems very relevent....


"An effective boundary bypasses the other persons cooperation"---myschae

...Seems to me that whatever you decide..the above is a good guideline.

Understanding what is and what is not within your control...and how to set up a plan that is acceptable to you..and sustainable BY you regardless of OW/WH future actions seems a good starting place.

Faith, I think you know where I stand on this and I want to add...

Can YOU recover from this? Even if the marriage fully recovers, can YOU fully recover?

I IMO a person can only take so many betrayals before they cave.

I am sorry you are still going thru this pain..thinking of you!

FF - I will agree with resilient and the rest. I believe the marriage can be saved, but it is mostly unlikely that it will be saved. The OW is out to keep this man, and she knew she was trying to get pregnant so that there would be a bigger connection to keep him around. I will state here, that if you were to divorce and they were to marry....the marriage will most likely not last long. A marriage out of betrayal and lust does not last. Statistics show this.

All you can do now is be the best person you can. Yes, the pain is real, we have all been through the pain one way or another. Some of us have not been through the other child syndrome. Yes, God can help, but God may see that this marriage should be disovled too.

Keep posting like you have, and keep learning and doing for yourself. You are the most precious person in the world to your daughter. She needs consistency in one parent and you are that parent.

Divorce happens, and people move on. We all move on different paths and at different times. My moving on was slow, but now I am on the path to a new me and a new life. I love me for who I am, I love who I have become, and I love being able to find myself. I was in a marriage that I lived with a controller. To this day he is still a controller and he has never sought individual counseling. He is a compulsive person and his lifesytle has shown that he is a compulsive person. Your husband evidently has some issues to deal with and if he thinks living with the OW is going to solve these issues, he is wrong.

I am so sorry for the pain, here is a big warm hug (((hug))). Blessings to you and your daughter.

My opinion is .... listen to BR and listen to Noodle and listen to Jo .... women who have brains and a full reserve tank of INTEGRITY ... and also women who are currently NOT CA-ers.

I like this:



Did you know I just met my older brother this summer?

He and our Dad are slowly developing a relationship ... and OB (older brother) grew up in a very strange household ... it's a long story. But, guess what? As an adult he sees that the ONE person with the majority of responsibility who created his messy childhood was ~~~> his Mom ! And, he's forgiven her!

OB was not an OC, but, his mother ~said~ he was an OC in order to get rid of her husband (my Dad) .... ahhhhhh .... the pre-DNA era of WWII.

To sacrifice your children at the alter of what's best for OC is .... unnecessary sacrifice.

It would be different entirely if OW would cooperate, or if H had a pair & took her to court to fight for joint custody .... but H's lack of (a pair) has placed OC in jeopardy .... not YOU!

Pep

I lived this statement above. It is so true it hurts to read.

During this time our therapist told me my husband's behavior was psychotic. Personally, I don't like diagnosing a WS with pseudo illnesses. To me it absolves them of wrong doing and accountablility, as if they are possessed and have no choice. But I will say he was very much two people from one day to the next.

Bottom line, it was all about him and his selfishness, not conscience. His daily path was always the one of least resistence. Spineless decision making.

Jo

Actually, I am in disagreement (in part) with this stance... " FF - I will agree with resilient and the rest. I believe the marriage can be saved, but it is mostly unlikely that it will be saved."

It could be a marriage to a certain degree. NOT a Buyer-Buyer agreement. That is what I think is not going to happen, ever. No matter how many books you read, how many marriage seminars you attend, you cannot singlehandedly create the desired M you have in your head.


This is NOT because of OC or OW or either of your affairs ....

It is because that is the best "he" can do ~~~> in my opinion which is based on NOT knowing him !

But YOU do know him, and you know him well ... take off any rose-shading and honestly appraise the situation like you would a house you were thinking of buying....

What is fixable (roof, plumbing, etc) and what is inherent (location, weather, etc)

Stop putting your energy trying to fight the fixed eliments of your marriage....

KWIM?

Pep

[color:"red"]EGG ZAK LEE [/color]

... and it is not always the WS who is spineless!

Pep

Ouch! but true.

I will say once I knew the REAL score I could have made my choices sooner, rather then months later. But the good news is I did choose, and requested he finally leave.

Something in me just kicked in. It was like watching my "strong" self do things that my "weak" self wouldn't do. SURVIVAL!

Dear FF,

Lots to weigh here, in terms of the kids.

I see a very tangled web, but it can be simplified if you think about it with the strings pulled straight out for just one moment. I based this on the assumption that you will stay with H. Also, this is "The Best Of All Possible Worlds, In Which All Adults Involved Act And Behave In The Best Interests Of the Children And With The Appropriate Civility Expected In Polite Society" - yeah, right., I know.....

String one:
Your H must act like a man, and FATHER all children involved.

String two:
OW must allow at the very minimum joint custody, with you and the half siblings/family of the father involved in OC's life as OC is growing up.

String three:
BW must accept (that is, if she decides to remain in marriage) that OC will be a part of the family at least during the time her H has custody, and assist in the raising of OC.

Kind of simplistic, but there it is. Best of all possible worlds, I know.


I understand the feelings about the OC. Your children of course are your main concern. But I would caution you on that front, and especially caution you about what you say about OC to your H. Here's why: If he goes to OW, he will take YOUR attitude about HER child with him, and reverse it to your children. If you demonstrate to him that you lack compassion for the OC, he will not chastise her for lacking compassion for yours if he wanders back to her. This is important, because all of these children need his support throughout their lives, and he is already conflicted in how to father one of them. It would not be difficult for that table to be turned should he run to her - remember the opposing forces.

Also, remember that while she may be the OC's mother - HE IS THE FATHER OF THESE CHILDREN, and he does have loyalty in his heart to all of them. The true conflict he feels must be unbearable at times for him. Another reason to be very careful about what you say about OC.


The flip side of the coin is this - based on what you have said about your H, and the history of your M, I see things as very shaky, so I have a question. What would your perfect desire be in your situation? I guess I'm asking, what do you want to happen? Your perfect solution?


SB