So I'm confused by the Marriage Counseling.

My wife has finally agreed to go (we've been to three sessions). She refused after first affair and immediately after second affair. Only after discovery of EA and continued contact with 2nd OM did she agree. She goes, albeit reluctantly and with much reservation. I spend most of counseling sessions feeling like I'm getting beaten up. She accuses me of going "just to tattle on her".

One big issue is trust (duh!). She resents my "snooping" and "spying". Marriage counselor says I need to let go of the snooping -- checking her email, voice mail, cell phone records, etc. He says "we'll give you tools to rebuild trust instead of these methods that are building resentment in your wife."

I recognize my wife resents me checking up on her. I don't want to build a wall of resentment between us, but I also don't want to be hit by another truck (affair). The "snooping" gives me some (false?) security for now.

Am I off-base in my concern about the counselor trying to get met to stop "checking up"? I know it can become addictive and compulsive. I'm taking steps to limit my "checking up", but it's all I have right now.

Second issue -- I want my wife to commit to our marriage. To accept (again) the vows we made when we were married -- "...for better, for worse, sickness, health, richer, poorer, FORSAKING ALL OTHERS, 'til death....". Not necessarily in some big ceremony, but just tell me she will not have another affair.

I told her that I can with 100% confidence look her in the eye and say "I will never have an affair." She responded, "You better not spit in the wind." Meaning (to her), "don't make promises you can't guarantee you'll keep!" She wouldn't promise to not have another affair, but said "I don't intend to have another affair."

The counselor had us look at each other and promise, "I will end this marriage before I have an affair." I was too stupified to question it then -- I literally spent the rest of the session starring into space wondering what I had just committed to. He explained it was a common ground of agreement from which to start forward.

WTF???

Two things:

1) I want a marriage based on VOWS -- not an arrangement based on an agreement. "I'll divorce you before I have an affair" isn't much of a comforting VOW.

2) Who would leave a marriage to start another relationship if they didn't already have feelings for someone else with some guarantee the other person returned those feelings? In effect, they were already in an affair to let those feelings mature and be reciprocated enough to leave their marriage.

I ask again, WTF?

I plan on asking him to clarify how such an "agreement" is supposed to give me hope. "Honey, I'll stay married to you, but if I decide to cheat, I'll give you 24-hours notice -- an email, note on the fridge, etc. OK?"

Is this standard practice?

I am very concerned that if I tell my wife we need to change counselors, she'll balk at having to re-hash the past (talk about her infidelities) and accuse me of trying to find a counselor that I agree with and will re-affirm all my feelings. She'll refuse to go and I'm back at square one.

Help?

Uhm. Yikes!

I do think you need a new marriage counselor and you're probably right about your wife's reaction. Since you'll probably only get one chance to change (if that) then I'd recommend you try the Harleys since you know they are experienced in dealing with affairs.

Tough situation. I'd almost wonder if no marriage counselor at all is better than the one you have.

Good luck to you.

Mys

Most marriage counselors are not qualified to counsel your dog, which is why they have such a dismally low success rates. They are not pro-marriage and often do more harm than good, AS YOU CAN SEE. You would be better off flushing the money down the toilet and saving the gas money to drive there. You would certainly save yourself much aggravation.


Good grief.... Someone should tell your silly mc that people who have nothing to hide, DON 'T HIDE.

p.s. don't you dare stop snooping! Dr. Harley is a specialist in this field and he sure recommends snooping. Just don't get caught!

Yeah -- the "don't get caught" problem.....

How do I act on something I find without revealing that I've been snooping? If I wait until the evidence is sufficient to prove another affair, do I live with the knowledge that maybe I could have prevented it if I had acted on "evidence" earlier?

I know there's no good answer -- just the resident dilemma.

Thanks for the advice -- I have to figure out what to do.

I plan on attending the next session and posing these questions to him directly and gauge his reaction to having his "counsel" challenged.

Thanks again.

Yikes is exactly how I feel.

I spoke with this guy on the phone before I set up first session to get a feeling for his approach. He was very pro-marriage in the conversation.

I believe he actually IS pro-marriage, I just don't think he knows how to adequately address the "trust" and "betrayal" issues.

He said that we are "lucky" that we survived one affair and "incredibly lucky" that we survived two affairs (totally ignoring my wife's third EA). I'm sitting there thinking, "LUCKY?!? There was no luck -- it is pure willpower and love for my wife/family that we are here. Don't cheampen the effort by calling it luck."

Adding to this, my wife and I have a continual problem with her work. I told her I'd be "happiest" if she left her job and found another, and I would be "happy" if she told them she can't travel for a couple of years. I casually (too casually, I think) said, "after the sacrifices I've made in this process, I think you can make this one."

She sat wide-eyed and looked at me and asked, "What sacrifices have you made?" I explained that I consider deciding to continue our marriage despite the pain, memories and sadness qualified as a bit of "sacrifice".

I expected him to chime in with some support to help my wife see that she needs to contribute to this recovery as well. He sat there in silence, watching me try and justify my comment.

Thanks for the support -- I've got a lot of thinking to do.

Artor, what I am going to say in answer to your questions is my opinion and you are free to disagree with any or all of it.




Riiiigggghhhhtt. What specific "tools." Can he list them for you? How about "tools" your wife can use instead of methods (like repeated Adultery) that are building resentment in her husband?

What seems to be lacking is a "moral code" or "standard of behavior" that should be applicable to BOTH of you that is outside of "personal 'pick and choose' for myself what I think I want is 'standard' enough." I can't tell from what you've written if you and your wife are belivers in Jesus Christ, but if not, the WHAT Standards, aside from individual choice or 'relative morals' ARE applicable to your MARRIAGE, not your "single person" STATE?

With respect to "snooping," your counselor is flat wrong.

Let's take it outside of your wife's infidelity for a second and think of it from the standpoint of two analogies to illustrate the "idiocy" of his lack of understanding, and thus his "recommendations."

Let's assume you had a child molestor who thought their behavior was "okay" for themselves and had molested your child three times. Would it make any sense, if the molester had "repented" and agreed to not molest anymore, to simply "trust blindly" that they are "as good as their word?" Or would it make sense to check the veracity of the words by checking the actions of that person that might lend "proof" that there was a REAL change and not just a "change of convenience" until the "heat is off?"

How about any "criminal" released from jail ahead of their full sentence (or similar scenarios) where a period of "probation" is a PART of the process. Why should there be NO probation and "checking up" because it might lead to some (well deserved imho) "resentment" on the part of the person who COMMITTED THE CRIME and leave the "innocent" open to further problems because a VITAL STEP in the rehabilitation process was "scuttled" because some judge ignored "standard procedure" and tried to make the "innocent" feel guilty for even asking for "truth in fact, not just in words?"




NO,you don't give it up? Not until YOU decide it's no longer necessary because your wife has EARNED back your trust.

Artor, BLIND TRUST is dead and buried, at least at this point in your marriage. IF you ever get back to that sort of trust, it will not be until years and years down the road. Your wife is PROVEN untrustworthy and it is UP TO HER to change that fact and to PROVE that she is a "changed person" who is trustworthy NOW. That is a "judgment" that is NOT bestowed, it is EARNED.

Does anyone get a College degree simply by saying to the College, "trust me," I don't need any "tests" to prove I have EARNED the degree? I can think of a few Comparative Anatomy courses and Quantitative Analysis Chemistry course (to name just a FEW) that I wouldn't have minded "skipping" and going straight to the Degree. Or how about the course I hated the most in College, Calculus?!?

The POINT is that it is NOT up to the student or the Adulterer to "set the rules for Recovery of a Marriage." It us up to the FAITHFUL SPOUSE who KEPT their vow of fidelity. Who, of the two, at least on the surface, seems to have the "better" grasp on what a Vow of Fidelity (that is, the voluntary 'giving up' of the 'rights' of a single person) MEANS?

Artor, there is NO "false security" in snooping as a means to verify veracity and truth in her WORDS. Her actions, if true, will prove her change. That change, unless you want to remain a doormat for the rest of your life (to say nothing of repeated exposure to NASTY STD's from your wife's "indiscretions"), MUST define your "new marriage."

Now, here's a "dose of reality" if you choose to "Trust, but VERIFY" for a time.

IF your wife finds out about the snooping, she WILL react with anger. Nobody "likes" to be "snooped upon," but sometimes it's "required." Why? Because their past action is evidence that their "word" cannot be trusted. It is not enough to say "I love you." It requires actions that prove you (or she) DOES love you. Initially we all give "blind trust" and take our spouse at their word. But ADULTERY changes all of that. It is extremely easy to "break trust," "lose trust," with anyone, much less a spouse to whom we have VOWED as a voluntary act of our will to FORSAKE all others for the rest of our life FOR BETTER OR FOR WORSE. In essence, your counselor is at least on the right tract her is saying that being with anyone other is unacceptable WHILE MARRIED. But we'll not go into divorce at this time because your counselor obviously also believes, from his statement in this issue, that divorce is okay simply if someone "feels like" they want to be "free." He is elevating "FEELINGS" to the level of STANDARD. That alone tells me, imho, that he is incompetent to function as a MARRIAGE counselor.

Remember the analogies I used earlier? Probation is snooping. "Get out of jail free" cards only exist in Monopoly, not real life. In real life (in Old Testament days) there was no need for snooping, or for attempted Recovery of a marriage, or for marital counseling. Adultery was a Capital crime and the perpetrator was put to death. The marriage ended by death.

IF your wife is truly repentant and truly wants to rebuild a committed monogamous marriage with YOU, then the "short term" snooping, if they'll think about it, should be welcomed and not resented, once they 'get past' the normal first human reaction of anger. People who have nothing to hide do not need to "fear" what anyone might find through "snooping" or "checking up."

Just remember that the snooping is primarily for YOU. It is for your reassurance, your ability to learn to trust her again. She would be just happy with you NOT snooping, but it's an unrealistic "expectation," let alone "demand," from someone who HAS proven untrustworthy in their behavior.




I understand. We (all BS's) understand. But it's not going to happen, if at all, for a long time. The AVERAGE recovery timeframe is 2 years. My own took 4 years.

But if all you want is for your wife to "tell you she won't have another affair," she can do that. After all, she did that before, and before, and before....right?

What you really want is REAL CHANGE and REAL, LIFE-LONG COMMITMENT, isn't that right? How will you know by just words alone?




Of course she doesn't believe you. She interprets everything from the perspective of a proven Adulterer and she NEEDS to know that what she did is "natural" for everyone, thereby gaining rationalization and justification that what she did "wasn't so back because everyone's doing it." Rubbish. I am in your camp. I went celibate for 6 years while my wife was in her affair, NOT because it was "fun," or because "I could get any outside of the marriage if I wanted to," but because I VOWED fidelity and gave up my "Right" to sex with anyone other than my wife "so long as we both shall live." You are right, your wife is wrong.




Get rid of this buffoon. He substitutes one sin for another. At this point in time, ONLY you have grounds for a divorce, and that ground is Adultery on the part of your wife. But he's obviously a proponent of "no fault" divorce where "feelings" reign supreme. This Bozo needs to go or he will simply ENABLE your wife to do whatever "she feels like doing" as justification enough for whatever she chooses. The marriage counselor should be counseling the MARRIAGE, not the individuals. The MARRIAGE is a single unit, and each spouse plays roles and "gives up" some things that as a single individual they might retain. Think of it sort of like a child that you and your wife might have. You each, individually, "give up" a part of you (that half of the chromosomes that are NOT) in the sperm or the egg. You each contribute part of you (that half of the chromosomes that ARE) in the sperm and the egg. What results is a "new you" that is half you and half your wife...a child. That child is NOT you or you wife, but a "ONE" of it's own. So is a marriage, "the two shall become one," as the Bible puts it.




Sadly, yes, all to often. But they make a nice living not having to live with their own advice.




Not all things in life are "easy." Sometimes doing what is right and what is needed is HARD. But so is deciding to STAY with an adulterer and try to recover your marriage.

HER discomfort, perhaps even anger, should you decide a different counselor is needed is "too bad" if it happens. But it would seem to be necessary unless you want to trust your recovery to this seemingly incompentent bozo.

Remember, YOU are in control of recovery. SHE already chose to leave the marriage (through her adulteries). You decide what's necessary for YOU to continue in the marriage.

God bless.

Thank you, FH, for the response, advice and encouragement.

You are correct that my wife can "say" anything. What I really want is meaningful change in her that will lead her to choose to remain faithful to our marriage.

I really do love my wife.

"Snooping" will continue to be an issue, and as you and MelodyLane have encouraged, I won't stop using this tool to re-affirm my rebuilding trust in my wife.

The counselor asked in the previous session for me to think about the ways I "snoop" and what positive things they provide.

I listed the four specific ways I "check-up" on my wife and specific "positive" things I get. I even gave him examples of specific instances where I saw my wife turn down a guy that had been hounding her to have lunch with him, just the two of them.

He didn't really have a response to this.

I've got a big decision ahead and have to spend more time interviewing counselors.

I'm thinking I'll take the tact of finding a good marriage counselor (Christian, pro-marriage, anti-divorce, etc) and see them for Individual Counseling first and invite my wife to a session or two and ditch the other guy.

It's a pretty expensive route and I know my wife will throw a fit -- she already complains about the money we spend on the current counselor. Unfortunately, the "price" of failing to fix our marriage is much greater.

Thanks again.

Sorry, had to reply here to the other issue about:

"I will never have an affair".

I said that to my husband when we were dating, when we were engaged, and when we were married. Several times I said it, and I believed it with all my heart.

But I did.

You are assuming that your wife expects to have another affair, which is why she won't make that promise to you. But I have a different interpretation.

Artor, Dr. Harley tells us that we are all vulnerable to an affair. There is no way to give 100% guarantee that it will not happen. Maybe this is what your wife wants to tell you. I bet her first affair surprised her- I bet she never expected to be that kind of person. She is not BAD and you are not GOOD. You are both human, and both capable of making a mistake.

Would you promise to her "I won't make a mistake"? Of course not. But I bet you would promise "I will learn from my mistakes". Ask her if she will make a modified promise to you.

Just a thought.

It would seem you already know more about recovery from infidelity than this "counselor" does. Does it make sense to get "advice" from an alleged "expert" when you already know the subject material better than he does?

I know it seems hard sometimes, but YOU have to make choices that YOU think will enhance, not retard, your recovery efforts. You already earned that right through your own faithfulness and love for your wife DESPITE her willful actions against you and against marriage of any kind, much less YOUR marriage.

God bless.

Well, you can't. Certainly if you are catching her doing things that would warrant a confrontation, then that more than validates your snooping. I would inform your MC that no one has the right to the privacy to destroy you behind your back and if you feel it is warranted, then you have an OBLIGATION to snoop in order to protect yourself.

Trust has to be EARNED, it is not an entitlement. And as long as she is an UNTRUSTWORTHY PERSON, you have an obligation to snoop in order to protect yourself. Once she EARNS trust, then you can SLOW DOWN the snooping. But you should never ever blindly trust her again. NEVER. So, snooping will be a way of life, albeit much less in the future when she EARNS trust, hopefully.

But, make it very clear to the counselor and your W that the snooping will only DECREASE when she EARNS trust and proves herself to be trustworthy. That will take lots of hard work on her part!

Dr. Harley is a qualified MC who specializes in adultery and he most certainly DOES recommend snooping. http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5060_qa.html



Also, snooping can be an enormous facilitator of recovery IF THE SPOUSE IS INNOCENT. If you can verify that she is being trustworthy when you aren't looking, then you will begin to feel safer. So, snooping will benefit her as long as she has nothing to hide. Her aversion to your snooping should tell you she DOES have something to hide, because people who have nothing to hide, don't hide!

Snooping allows you to protect yourself from her and it keeps you INFORMED of secrets she is keeping from you. You have a RIGHT to know if she is screwing around with men because you are her husband. Snooping allows you to protect yourself from her, which is very positive!

DUH!

Thanks -- that is a very valid thought.

However, are marriage vows just for show?

We vowed to "forsake all others". It wasn't a promise to "try" it was a promise to "do".

I fully agree that we are all subject to temptation. I have never been more tempted by the sight of an attractive woman than in the depths of my despair over what I had lost in my marriage. I find myself wondering (since her last affair) if another woman would be interested in me -- if I could find someone who would WANT to be with me and be EXCITED about being with me. Would another woman be happy to be with me? But even though I could "justify" a one-night-stand or claim entitlement to "experiment", I CHOSE not to do so. That and I know what pain my wife's affairs have caused me and I could not be party to doing that to someone else.

We say that to build love, sometimes you have to say it and keep saying it and the feelings will follow.

Why can't it be the same way with fidelity? If we can't say "I will remain faithful to you 'til death us do part" instead of "I will really try to remain faithful to you 'til death us do part" -- then it needs to be removed from the marriage vows.

I appreciate your position, 090886 -- I really do. I love my wife and I feel pain for her when I think about the guilt she must experience when she sees me cry over our loss or sees what this has done to my self-esteem and confidence.

What I can't understand is her insistence that vowing to remain faithful is "spitting in the wind". She gave me that vow in 1988 -- I kept it, why can't she? (Not really expecting an answer, even from her.)

I appreciate your point of view -- I have learned much from hearing from those who are on the other side of such situations. It really has helped me understand my wife during these times. I admire your courage and up-front discussion.

Thanks

I insisted on going to counseling as a couple to find ways to restore some of the trust and to learn how to keep all this from driving me insane. I had hoped that he would help my wife see that my "snooping" was a necessary stop-gap between the points of "no trust" and "trust".

I was wrong to assume all counselors would see it that way.

Yes, it is building resentment in my wife that I "snoop". I'm at the point where I don't care -- I know what I get from the confidence that nothing is going on as far as I can tell.

It's sort of sadly funny -- he was commenting on my need to "snoop" and said (paraphrase), "she could open another email account you don't know about or go to the store and buy a throw-away cell phone you don't know about."

While I had thought of this before and have been on the lookout for such a phone, I didn't know if my wife had thought about this and was floored that he would introduce the suggestion.

I've got to get looking for a new counselor.

Thanks

Thanks for the re-inforcement.

I know that his concerns are two-fold:

1) It is building resentment in my wife.

2) I could be reading into the least little thing and blow it out of proportion.

To his first concern, I recognize that happening, but I believe that it will fade. Can't do anything about her choice to be resentful just as I couldn't do anything about her choice to have an affair.

To the second, I recognize the potential. I have an active imagination and can get carried away sometimes. As I said earlier, my wife is friendly and sometimes too friendly. I don't think she has a strong boundary between friendliness and flirtation. It drives me nuts when I see her being (in her opinion) friendly, but I see it as (in my opinion) flirty.

I don't know -- didn't confront -- want to watch and follow at a distance.

Such is my lot, I guess.

Thanks

Question on follow up.

I may decide that this current counselor just doesn't have our marriage's best interests in mind and decide to change counselors.

As I said, my wife will possibly refuse to go somewhere else since she won't want to re-hash it all again (not that I blame her).

If I decide to change and she refuses to go -- what do I do?

I could imagine a couple of courses:

1. Go to a new counselor for IC and gradually bring her along to MC.

2. Tell her we are at a stalemate and she needs to put her big-girl panties on and come to counseling.

3. Make it clear that I will go to a new counselor and invite her along with the knowledge that our marriage will not grow nor will I heal until she attends. If she values our marriage and/or me, she'll participate.


I obviously don't have much of a stick to hold over her. Plan B isn't appropriate nor is sleeping on the couch (looks too much like a tantrum).

Any other suggestions?

I would work on making sure your wife's affair is over before you bother with counseling. It really is a waste of time until that happens. The purpose of counseling is to faciliate RECOVERY and you aren't even close to that stage yet.

As long as she "resents" your snooping instead of opening up her life to you like an open book, you will know she is still hiding something and you are far from recovery.

Why isn't Plan B appropriate?

I guess I feel Plan B isn't appropriate because, as far as I know and can verify, the affair is over.

I haven't found any evidence of continued contact. I apologize if I implied that the email I quoted in this thread was to the OM. It was to another co-worker and served to illustrate that I can read all sorts of interpretations into her email.

Plan B would be in play if she was continuing the affair -- or at least that's how I've interpreted Plan B.

Is there room for it in this situation?

Artor, she is hiding something or she wouldn't be trying so hard to throw you off the path. What do you think she is hiding?

Has all contact ended with her OM?

Artor, forgive all my questions, I just wasn't clear on your situation. I went back and read some of your posts and it seems that your wife is a serial cheater and that cheating is a way of life for her. Do you think she is addicted to having affairs? [this would be versus the average cheater who is addicted to a specific PERSON] This might explain why she doesn't want you to check up on her. You are very likely to find something.