Welcome to the
Marriage Builders® Discussion Forum

This is a community where people come in search of marriage related support, answers, or encouragement. Also, information about the Marriage Builders principles can be found in the books available for sale in the Marriage Builders® Bookstore.
If you would like to join our guidance forum, please read the Announcement Forum for instructions, rules, & guidelines.
The members of this community are peers and not professionals. Professional coaching is available by clicking on the link titled Coaching Center at the top of this page.
We trust that you will find the Marriage Builders® Discussion Forum to be a helpful resource for you. We look forward to your participation.
Once you have reviewed all the FAQ, tech support and announcement information, if you still have problems that are not addressed, please e-mail the administrators at mbrestored@gmail.com
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 1 of 16 1 2 3 15 16
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 750
H
Hiker45 Offline OP
Member
OP Offline
Member
H
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 750
Over the course of the last six months I have read everything I could get my hands on about adulterous affairs. Among the best materials are Dr. Frank Pittman’s Private Lies, Dr. Shirley Glass’ Not Just Friends, Love Must Be Tough : New Hope for Families in Crisis by Dr. James Dobson, and all the books by Dr. Willard Harley. I have tried to synthesize the best of these explanations of the pathology of an affair.

There are several different types of affairs, but this post will deal with the “romantic” type. In this type of affair, the wandering or wayward spouse (WS) has crossed a boundary and “fallen in love” with an affair partner (OP, other person). What makes this affair so difficult to deal with is that it is emotionally driven. The “in love” state is often so powerful that the WS may be willing to sacrifice the marriage and just about everything else to pursue it.

You have probably heard about or known a teenager who has been told that the person they are dating and in love with is using him or her or is demonstrably bad for them. Have you ever seen such a person take anyone’s advice and stop seeing this lover? It’s rare, because one’s emotions corrupt any attempt at clear thinking. This is what happens in romantic affairs. It is a powerful fantasy relationship in which the partners may idealize each other and bond in a way that makes everything else in their lives seem insignificant by comparison. If your spouse is engaged in a romantic affair and agrees to break it off, you are extremely lucky.

From the point of view of a betrayed spouse (BS), one’s spouse having an affair appears to be a rejection of you in favor of someone else. This can be a devastating blow to your self-esteem. You hear things like “I love you, but I’m not in love with you,” and other statements along similar lines. You are shocked that this person who pledged to love you through thick and thin or until “death do us part” has suddenly forgotten that commitment or decided to revoke it without advance notice. (Chances are your spouse never talked about a marital crisis or separation or divorce before the affair.) They don’t want to work on the marriage, and you don’t understand why. They latch onto any events in your past in which you had a disagreement with them, no matter how rare or insignificant they seem, as evidence of your incompatibility. They won’t go to counseling, or if they do, they use it by sabotaging the counselor’s efforts and then tell you “I told you it wouldn’t work!” They won’t stop the affair, even though you can point out a dozen practical reasons for stopping it and fixing the marriage. They are not concerned about the children, after all, “they’ll adapt.” Your joint personal finances are jeopardized because the pursuit of love is more important than worrying about money or mortgages or credit card bills. Your wandering spouse’s family and friends may turn against you too. You don’t know what they’ve been told, but it’s a safe bet that they’ve been given a laundry list of grievances against you, while carefully leaving out the details of how they lied, cheated, and deceived you to pursue their affair. Of course, all those things were justified because you weren’t a good spouse, and this new person in their life is their true soul mate.

You’re angry, upset, and depressed. You fluctuate between these emotions while trying to make sense of it all. But you can’t make sense of it because infidelity is not a sensible act. In fact, much of what your spouse does seems self-destructive. That is because it is self-destructive, and if you are not careful your spouse will destroy you, too.

What can you do when you discover that your spouse is engaged in a romantic affair? Well, according to Pittman:

“I advise spouse’s who are waiting for their mate’s romance to end: don’t try to out-romance a romantic. Don’t bother to arouse jealousy. Don’t try to get your partner’s attention, increase your partner’s guilt, or threaten some kind of unpleasantness. Just express your point of view and then go off and do whatever holds you together during this time.”

Glass offers no solution to the WS who refuses to stop the affair.

Only Dr. Harley offers a plan for dealing with a spouse who is unwilling to stop the affair (see Plan A and Plan B on the MB website). But even Dr. Harley acknowledges that affairs of this nature are extremely difficult to break. They are often characterized as addictions, because they share many of the self-destructive traits that are visible among alcoholics and drug addicts. Most affairs will have to “burn out,” that is, they run their course until the romance fades and reality intrudes to destroy the fantasy. Unfortunately, this very often doesn’t happen until a lengthy separation between husband and wife occurs, or in some cases, after a divorce.

Here are some things to consider:

1. The affair is not your fault. No matter what the state of the marriage prior to the affair, no one forces the WS to have the affair, and having the affair is clearly not a solution to marital problems. (Click this link: It's Not Your Fault)

2. It is a myth that affairs don’t occur in good marriages. People in good marriages DO have affairs. Dr. Pittman says the following:

"Romantic affairs happen in good marriages even more often than in bad ones."

You probably know someone who loves their wife or husband and claims to have a good marriage, but still can’t turn down an opportunity for a sexual encounter with someone else. This is especially true of philandering men. There are other reasons why people engage in affairs that have nothing to do with the marriage itself; self-esteem issues, depression, sexual addictions, etc.

3. Don’t take the affair personally. This is not a rejection of you; this is simply a bad choice by your partner who most likely tried to hide the affair from you because they didn’t want to lose you.

4. The OP is not necessarily more attractive or sexier than the betrayed spouse (BS). Most of the time the affair partner is no better in bed than the BS, it’s just that the intense emotional involvement makes it seem so, especially for women. Also, the OP is often chosen more for his/her incompatibility with the WS than for any similarities; the greater the differences, the more intense the relationship.

5. Not all affairs result in divorce. Most statistics indicate that, of couples who seek counseling for having marital problems due to an affair, between 80 and 85% reconcile. In Pittman’s experience, most of the couples who divorced after an affair did so because of the steadfast refusal of the WS to stop the affair.

6. Nearly all affairs end, usually within two years or less. Even when the affairees marry each other, only 25% of them are still together after 5 years. Pittman found that five years after the revelation of an affair, most WSs were back with their marriage partner.

7. In romantic affairs, it is usually a waste of time to try to talk the WS into stopping the affair, working on the marriage, or getting counseling. But it won’t hurt to try once or twice when you first uncover the affair. Don’t expect the WS be sensible or practical.

8. Although it goes against Dr. Harley’s advice, it may be a bad idea to assume responsibility for marital problems at the time of discovery of a romantic affair. That’s because the WS is looking for justification for the affair and by assuming responsibility for any marital problems, real or imagined, you are inadvertently giving your spouse an excuse for his/her actions. No attempt to solve marital problems will work while the affair continues. Stop the affair first, then talk about marital problems and their solution.

9. Don’t beg for a second chance or promise to change in an attempt to persuade your WS to stop the affair or prevent separation or divorce. This doesn’t work. Don’t allow what love your WS has for you to be turned into pity. Keep a bold front, even if it is only a façade and you are crumbling inside.

10. It is the WS who most often files for divorce. Interestingly, Dr. Pittman says there is almost always a point when the WS makes an attempt to return to the BS, even after the divorce occurs, (although you may not recognize the attempt for what it is, and it may come as a result of the WS’s desire to assure themselves of your continued love).

11. Don’t be surprised if your WS claims all sorts of marital problems that you had no idea existed. The creation and/or gross exaggeration of marital problems is part of the process of transferring guilt of the affair to you or the marriage. It is an attempt by the WS to rationalize what cannot be excused. Does the WS believe what he/she says about the marriage? The power of self-deception is often proportional to the guilt one would be forced to endure without it; WSs often believe their own lies and some never come to grips with the truth.

12. If your WS has had multiple romantic affairs, it may be that they are in love with the idea of being in love. These people are very often not suitable for marriage and will bounce from relationship to relationship until their dying day. You may want to bail out of this marriage or be prepared to spend a lot of money on a psychiatrist.

13. Although you may be desirous of saving your marriage, it is best to prepare for the worst. Seek legal advice about your possible divorce and custody issues. Do whatever is necessary to prevent the WS from destroying your financial resources along with your marriage.

For those of you looking for quick and easy solutions, there are none. Dr. Harley recommends exposure (telling any friends, family, or co-workers who might be able to influence the WS to stop the affair) as a method of accelerating the demise of an affair, but generally speaking, there are three possible outcomes even if you follow Dr. Harley’s Plan A/B:

A. The affair continues, a divorce ensues, and the affairees live together happily ever after. (This is very rare.)

B. The affair continues for a time after discovery, the affairees eventually break up, but either the WS or BS or both refuse to reconcile. (The probability of this occurring seems to be directly proportional to the length of the affair.)

C. The affair continues for a time after discovery, the affairees eventually break up, the WS and BS reconcile. (The probability of this occurring seems to be inversely proportional to the length of the affair.)

I hope this helps some of you who arrive daily on this forum. There are a lot of good folks here offering fine advice coming from first-hand experience.

Remember that you are not alone.

Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 1,398
S
Member
Offline
Member
S
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 1,398
Wow.....great read.....AND I agree with it all. This is exactly what happened with me and my EX.

After 4yrs of waiting on her married EX b/f......my kids said she took her house keys and garage door opener from him and said its over.

I firmly believe she will keep seeing him.

Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 10,060
W
Member
Offline
Member
W
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 10,060
Good stuff, Hiker.

....and a resounding endorsement of Pittman's book.

Joined: May 2006
Posts: 750
H
Hiker45 Offline OP
Member
OP Offline
Member
H
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 750
Thanks, WAT. I'm obviously a big fan of Pittman.

Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 371
C
Member
Offline
Member
C
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 371
Hiker, how very nice of you to write all of this down for those suffering from A s.

I will bump this up.


Sincerely, Carnation


Me - BS 55 WH/FWH 50 OW 30 Much evidence says that my H was/is deeply involved in a very long term PA Prolly will never know much more than that
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 1,724
A
Member
Offline
Member
A
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 1,724
This is a great post - thanks, Hiker.

I am also a great fan of Pittman - dare I say I read him even more than Harley during my darkest days? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

I found it such a relief that I didn't have to bear responsibility for my WXH's affair - because Pittman says that romantic affairs happen in good marriages as well as bad. And ours was a good marriage. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Interesting that the delusion and deflected blame the WS feels is proportional to the guilt they refuse to acknowledge. In my WXH's case, alas, I fear he will never 'see the light'. The OW is also totally in control of the relationship, and what she says goes. Basically, the A will last as long as she wants it to.

The A has been going on since December '04. If it aint over by Christmas, I think it's a lifer.

Alph.


Me, BS 37 Him, WXH (Noddy) 40 DD13, DD6 Married 14th August 1993 D/Day 2nd April 05 Noddy left us 3rd April 05, lives with OW (Omelette) 28 Divorce final 6th July '06. Time wounds all heels... - Groucho Marx ...except when it doesn't. - Graycloud
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 750
H
Hiker45 Offline OP
Member
OP Offline
Member
H
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 750
Quote
Interesting that the delusion and deflected blame the WS feels is proportional to the guilt they refuse to acknowledge.

Indeed it is interesting. And suppressed guilt causes its own problems.

Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 4,138
E
Member
Offline
Member
E
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 4,138
when my H and i "fell in love" WE were exactly what is described as "romantic love"

i was the exact opposite of what my H had been brought up to believe was the "right kind of girl" from the "right kind of family"

he went against everyone's advice and we became so very closely bonded because it was "us against them"

he viewed our relationship as something risky, exciting....and i guess it was addictive....during the 4 years we dated and were engaged, his friends and family came to accept me and our relationship grew into a mature love.....and for 12 years we were happily married...then he went looking for romantic love again

he found it with OW....for 3 years now they have been involved off and on

the A IS everything all the books say about a romantic affair

and just like he made the commitment to me and to our relationship....it seems that he is in this for the long haul....maybe forever

because really, the excitment might always be there for my H

OWH lives with her mother and thier 4 children......so he is always a "threat" to my H

OW mother doesn't accept my H and he can't go to her house when OW goes to see her children........so she's often alone there with her H

more excitement....and the constant challenge to "keep her"

OW also gave up everything to be with my H....moved out of HER mothers house and even left her 4 children behind....ages 6, 9, 15 and 16!

so she is also chasing her "romantic love partner"

my H family does now think that i didn't make him happy and OW must be the "right" woman for him........they have ended all contact with me since even before he left (except when i called them because i was worried about my H safety)

they were MY family for 16 years and now they have erased me as completely as my H did...that hurts so much

i used to tell my friends and family that i was so lucky because my H loved me like crazy.....

and now....he hates me just as much as he used to love me

he has given up everything...walked away from every material possession he had and from his 2 dogs that were like children to us

he strung me along after he left....but would never make any effort to reconcile because he was waiting for OW

and after she moved in with him......that was it....no more cake eating/fence sitting

it seems as long as she wants to be with him....he's not going anywhere.....and their life together will continue to give them both the "thrills" they need because of the connection to her H, children, and her mother

i too have read Pitman over and over.....and it doesn't make me feel confident that my H will be returning

lately i have come to believe that i AM going to have to find some way to stop loving him because i'm losing hope that he's coming back

i tried everything......and like Pittman says....i've just been a "pesky noise" bothering my H

nothing i have said or done has made any difference

at least i know from my reading that this is the horror of a romantic affair....

i do though believe that my situation is EXTREME and my H's addiction is very, very powerful...made worse because the "thrills" seem to be never ending

if, like Pittman says, one day almost all WS try to come back.....i'm expecting it will be only if the OW leaves my H

and then....why would i want to live my life being his "back up" or "second choice" always feeling like i'm not the one he really wants to be with....always waiting and always afraid OW would change her mind and he would go running?

THIS is not the life i want...but THAT isn't the life i want either <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 4,138
E
Member
Offline
Member
E
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 4,138
Quote
Interesting that the delusion and deflected blame the WS feels is proportional to the guilt they refuse to acknowledge.


my H says he feels guilt and shame and that he knows he "ruined our marraige"

so he says that he can't be with me because he can "see in my eyes the hurt he has put me through" so he might as well start over with OW who he says is "just the same as he is"

so then why does he still HATE me and say that he can never forgive me for not being there for him when i was depressed?

he's blaming ME for "making him do this"...that's why

so yes...he feels guilt and shame but it seems that he beleives that I MADE HIM DO WHAT HE DID and so i also made him hate himself


this romantic affair wonn't ever make sense and Pittman is right...the most miserable people on the earth are the BS who's H fell in love with someone else and erased them....

Joined: May 2005
Posts: 1,724
A
Member
Offline
Member
A
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 1,724
eav, you are becoming quite the guru on these boards! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I feel you and I have always much in common in our sitches.

Except this:

Quote
OW also gave up everything to be with my H....moved out of HER mothers house and even left her 4 children behind....ages 6, 9, 15 and 16!

The Omelette gave up nothing at all to be with WXH. She is unmarried, and although her family is strict Catholic, they accepted the affair and WXH's divorce without batting an eyelid apparently!

Quote
and after she moved in with him......that was it....no more cake eating/fence sitting

No cake eating from my WXH at any time. He dropped me like the proverbial hot potato, moved in with OW, and never showed the slightest hint of regret or conflict. We have been NC for over a year now. He has never tried to contact me.

Quote
i do though believe that my situation is EXTREME and my H addiction is very, very powerful...mad e worse because the "thrills" seem to be never ending

I think the 'thrills' are over for WXH and OW. They have no money, they live in a mouldy little flat (I know because the children smell of mildew when they come back from there <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> ) and, most importantly, the 'us against the world' phase is coming to an end. Once the finances are settled, they won't even have me and the kids as an obstacle to their happiness, and no-one else has caused any problems for them - not Omelette's parents, not WXH's parents, not even the kids.

Quote
if, like Pittman says, one day almost all WS try to come back.....i'm expecting it will be only if the OW leaves my H

Same here. She gave up nothing to be with him - it will be much easier for her to end the relationship. I still don't think he'll try to come back, though - even if the A ends.

I will never accept being his second choice. And he knows it.

Alph.


Me, BS 37 Him, WXH (Noddy) 40 DD13, DD6 Married 14th August 1993 D/Day 2nd April 05 Noddy left us 3rd April 05, lives with OW (Omelette) 28 Divorce final 6th July '06. Time wounds all heels... - Groucho Marx ...except when it doesn't. - Graycloud
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 750
H
Hiker45 Offline OP
Member
OP Offline
Member
H
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 750
eav,

If your husband left you to seek the thrill of a new romance, what makes you think he won't eventually do the same to the OW?

Maybe he is one of Pittman's "people who are addicted to romance."

There are very definitely people out there who are unsuitable for marriage. Commitment means nothing to them; just words you say at your wedding.

Quote
this romantic affair wonn't ever make sense and Pittman is right...the most miserable people on the earth are the BS who's H fell in love with someone else and erased them....

It doesn't have to be this way. Ask WAT. His story is the about as tragic as can be found here -- much more than just a backstabbing, cheating spouse -- and since then he has found the love of his life.

Joined: May 2006
Posts: 750
H
Hiker45 Offline OP
Member
OP Offline
Member
H
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 750
eav,

If he doesn't blame you or the marriage, then who would be the one to blame? Obviously it would be himself, and he can't live with that. He'll accept PARTIAL blame, but accepting full responsibility for destroying the marriage is too much for him to bear.

That leaves you as a target.

Joined: May 2006
Posts: 750
H
Hiker45 Offline OP
Member
OP Offline
Member
H
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 750
Alph,

We once had a discussion on this forum about WSs that would stay with the OP even after it became obvious things weren't working out like they planned -- the motivation coming from an inability to admit their mistake or face the shame of their actions once the "fog" lifted.

There is also the fear that the BS will forever hold the affair against them should they return.

Joined: May 2005
Posts: 1,724
A
Member
Offline
Member
A
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 1,724
Quote
We once had a discussion on this forum about WSs that would stay with the OP even after it became obvious things weren't working out like they planned -- the motivation coming from an inability to admit their mistake or face the shame of their actions once the "fog" lifted.

There is also the fear that the BS will forever hold the affair against them should they return.

Yup. I'm certain that WXH is beginning to feel that he's made this bed and now must lie in it. I don't think for a minute that the OW will make him happy long-term. More importantly, I don't think that WXH can make her happy long-term - he isn't strong enough for her. At the moment, I guess she enjoys being in control of the relationship, but her father is a strong man (he was a captain in the Spanish army) and eventually I think OW will lose all respect for WXH.

I know I have! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Alph.


Me, BS 37 Him, WXH (Noddy) 40 DD13, DD6 Married 14th August 1993 D/Day 2nd April 05 Noddy left us 3rd April 05, lives with OW (Omelette) 28 Divorce final 6th July '06. Time wounds all heels... - Groucho Marx ...except when it doesn't. - Graycloud
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 4,138
E
Member
Offline
Member
E
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 4,138
Quote
There is also the fear that the BS will forever hold the affair against them should they return.


there are so many moments since beginning plan B that i have wanted to send and e-mail to say "i love you." I have forgiven you and i am ready to leave the past in the past" "I am here for you if you decide that you want to work together to build a marraige that meets both our needs were we can both be happy."

but i've tried it so many times already and it was a waste of effort.....he just didn't care <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 782
S
Member
Offline
Member
S
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 782
I think my WH would definitely fall into the "romantic
affair" category as well. I don't know that/if WH feels
he is "in love" with OW or not, but she definitely feels
she is "in love" with him, and that's been her "excuse"
for the affair.
When I last saw her, back in December, she told me "she
was sorry, but she L-O-V-E-D WH", like that was supposed
to make it okay to continue an affair, even after she found
out he had lied, was still married, and no D in the works !
Yeah, well I love MY HUSBAND too, OW.

I think she also pulls the "love card" on WH alot.
When I overheard a phone conversatio between them back in
Feb. (when they renewed contact after our brief "recovery")
I heard her say "If you love me and want to marry me you'll
do such and such"....

Obviously there must be something that keeps them together,
even after several "break ups", frequent fighting, and major
paranoid on OW's part. I haven't been able to figure out
what the attraction is, and would think the "fantasy bubble"
would have burst long ago. Don't know if what's left is them
trying to recreate the original "thrill" of it, some kind
of sex addiction, WH's feeling a "challenge" due to OW's
games and ultimatums, or OW feeling a competition with me
to "win" WH.
I think there is merit too, in the WS feeling that they
will never be able to forgive themselves or "live down" the
A, making it seem easier to them to just give up and stick
with the A, even when it has lots of problems.
Could also be a matter of pride, because they don't want to
admit they were "wrong" or go "begging back" to the BS.

I too have tried to make sure WH knew I was willing to make
changes myself, forgive, work on a new M that would make us
BOTH happy, not just blame him or expect him to make all the
changes. However, until they are out of the fog and able to
think clearly , seems like nothing we say or do gets through
or makes a difference.

Slammed

Joined: May 2006
Posts: 750
H
Hiker45 Offline OP
Member
OP Offline
Member
H
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 750
Eav,

Quote
but i've tried it so many times already and it was a waste of effort.....he just didn't care.

You're right. It is a wasted effort. Remember that Dr. Harley says that having an affair is one of the most selfish things a person can do. Your feelings are pretty low on his list of priorities. That hurts.

Although it is difficult to see now, your future is brighter.

Let's suppose you get divorced.

Between you and your WS, who do you think stands a better chance of having a great marriage in the future? The person who lied and cheated their way into a divorce? Or the person who struggled mightily to save the marriage despite having suffered (at the hands of their spouse) what may be the greatest emotional pain one human being can inflict upon another?

Joined: May 2006
Posts: 750
H
Hiker45 Offline OP
Member
OP Offline
Member
H
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 750
Slammed,

Quote
I too have tried to make sure WH knew I was willing to make
changes myself, forgive, work on a new M that would make us
BOTH happy, not just blame him or expect him to make all the
changes. However, until they are out of the fog and able to
think clearly , seems like nothing we say or do gets through
or makes a difference.

That's it. That's why Pittman recommends that you, "Just express your point of view and then go off and do whatever holds you together during this time."

Joined: May 2005
Posts: 1,724
A
Member
Offline
Member
A
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 1,724
Does this mean that true, full-on addictive romantic affairs are pretty unlikely to be affected by the whole Plan A/ Plan B thing?

When I plan A'd my ex, he seemed happy because he thought we were going to be 'friends', and that I was getting over him leaving me (I wasn't). It didn't make him want to come home at all.

When I went NC (I didn't do an official plan B - no letter) he didn't try to contact me, and never asked or spoke about me to anyone. Like eav said - he just didn't care!

It was like I had ceased to exist.

I knew a long time ago that this wasn't going to change. Even if the affair ended, I knew he wasn't going to love me again. So I divorced him.

Alph.


Me, BS 37 Him, WXH (Noddy) 40 DD13, DD6 Married 14th August 1993 D/Day 2nd April 05 Noddy left us 3rd April 05, lives with OW (Omelette) 28 Divorce final 6th July '06. Time wounds all heels... - Groucho Marx ...except when it doesn't. - Graycloud
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 35,996
P
Member
Offline
Member
P
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 35,996
I think the most effective way to break-up a romantic affair is

E X P O S U R E

and all at once

make the 'cost' of the romance very very VERY v e r y $$$$

discomfort makes romance lessen

secrecy makes romance increase

Pep

Page 1 of 16 1 2 3 15 16

Moderated by  Fordude 

Link Copied to Clipboard
Forum Search
Who's Online Now
1 members (NewEveryDay), 1,357 guests, and 77 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
Mike69, petercgeelan, Zorya, Reyna98, Nofoguy
71,829 Registered Users
Building Marriages That Last A Lifetime
Copyright © 1995-2019, Marriage Builders®. All Rights Reserved.
Site Navigation
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5