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Hey Mimi.... Good post.

I understand what you are saying that this often happens at vulnerable times in people's lives and usually happens over time not in one night. It starts with being friends, trusting one another, understanding, not judging, listening, touching and well you like me know where it ends up.

However, I know that at some point in the process questions come to the mind of the WS. Is this a good idea? I am starting to feel something for this person. I am starting to judge my spouse. I want to hug this person. I wished my spouse made me feel this way and on and on and on. What I mean to say is while my example above involved a one night encounter only, even in that one night's encounter there were several times from the beginning of dinner until the proposition and decision I made where I could see "red lights" going off. The same thing happens even more so in an affair that starts the way you and I describe herein. SO, there are many opportunties along the way to remove yourself, to do the right thing, all the way up to getting into bed with this person. Unfortunately, most WS's don't have what what it takes to do the right thing. Why? I don't know. Maybe they just do not want to. Perhaps the selfishness, entitlement and addiction are more than they want to or can control and they can't stop at any point along the path to destruction (i.e. - full blown EA/PA).

I understand what you are saying and believe a lot of it. BUT I stick by the fact that at some time in every affair the WS had the chance to stop. TO simply STOP. They chose not to for any number of reasons. IMO, most of them center on selfishness and entitlement. Thanks for the good discussion.

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Several years ago I was dienchanted and felt was a wayward myself, I justified my actions by saying that I wasn't leaving my wife but I was going to a prostitute to feel like a man, even though I was SF with the wife at the time, it was the other things, the other pressures that I felt compelling me t justify my actions as okay. I agree there were several times when I knew what I was doing was WRONG, but you can easily ignore them, for a while. It does all come back to rost.

I think there is only a small percentage of people that wont wake to reality and at least realize their damage, but like we always say her its a marathon not a sprint. That applies to both sides, us on the MB side and the waywards on the affair side.

Its is 100% self entitlement that caused me to modify by value and moral consciousness.... It was professional success and a feeling of distance in the marriage...

I know realize where a lot of it came from and I see how wife now had her hands in it.... You know I think PA/NPD can rub off onto sane people...... I honestly think in my case that I was around her so much and started accepting her environment as normal and but when I did it she was completely destroyed, however i honestly feel that is what she was looking for, a solid reason to feel the victim... its always happening to me, I am always the one getting hurt, what have I ever do to deserve this... those would be the things I hear from her.

Got to get back to copying documents for court tomorrow

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Vike

Let us know how court comes out. We are praying for you.

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This seems to imply that at some point everyone succumbs to temptation and that the only way to eliminate people from making bad choices is to take the choices away.

That's a pretty pessimistic view of human nature.

I think it sounds pessimisstic when you look at it on a one time basis. What I'm saying is that if you keep giving people the opportunity to succumb, they eventually will find a way to rationalize the behavior. They will

The wallet example is incomplete. It doesn't factor in time. If you had those same people find a wallet once a week or so for a period of ten years, eventually a very large percentage would at one time or another, keep the cash. Maybe they had a bad day, maybe their tired of going through the work of finding the owner, maybe they need bus fare, or their kid needs braces, etc.

Its the coming together of the opportunity and ability to rationalize. Said another way. If 1 day out of 100 a person could rationalize infidelity, and 100 days out of 100 they have the opportunity, then there is a 100% chance they will committ adultry. The reverse, if 100 days of 100 a person could rationalize it, but 1 days out of 100 they have the opportunity, then there is also 100% chance they will committ adultry.

With respect to fraud, since its virtually impossible to control what behavior a person could ultimately rationalize, you work on eliminating opportunities.

So its not to say taking the choices away is the only way to eliminate bad choices, its just the most certain.

That said, in recovering a M, I think it is a combination of both. I think the MB principles attempt to address both. Meeting EN's is certainly a method for removing anothers ability to rationalize infidelity. NC is the biggest area of removing opportunity for infidelity.


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That said, in recovering a M, I think it is a combination of both. I think the MB principles attempt to address both. Meeting EN's is certainly a method for removing anothers ability to rationalize infidelity. NC is the biggest area of removing opportunity for infidelity.


Well-said. GOOD POINT, RP!!!!


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I think another point worth mentioning here is that not all moral values are universal. For instance, it might be perceived as a strength to take the found money, even a moral stregth if your purpose is to use this money for the good of your family or subgroup. I think moral values often come into conflict and very often there are many factors that come into play at the moment a moral judgement is made.

I think the simple fact that things like cheating or stealing occur in society are reasons that one should protect against by eliminating opportunities if there's something of value to protect. It's the only thing you can control. Furthermore, I think that as long as we see this occuring in society at large we should be on alert for the propensity to act this way ourselves. Human nature is displayed in the actions of society, we are all human, so therefore we are capable of everything we dislike in society.

Hiker's thought about how this reflects on human nature is interesting to me because the idea of how people regulate their actions in relationship (with other people or with society at large) is interesting to me - but I wouldn't put the same value judgement on the observation. I think we all have this general idea that if we all govern ourselves appropriately, or the "right" way then our society will function properly. So we punish the outstanding instances where people don't act the "right" way. The trouble with this is that what is right is a very gray area, as it's influenced by so many different factors and the degree to which people even want to behave properly is a subjective thing as well. So rather than try and control the behavior of people we limit the choices available to them. This is the only way to ensure they don't act "wrong" (intimidation only works so well). But the paradox here is that while we can't control other people, we can discipline ourselves to act in accordance with what our moral value code deems right and accept that others will not follow our code (and that our compliance with it doesn't imply that they should either), but maintain an optimistic outlook that will enable us to be aware of how well we interact with others when we do. Not act properly because we're afraid of the consequences, but rather our of love for ourself and the relationships we are lucky enough to be in.

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Meeting EN's is certainly a method for removing anothers ability to rationalize infidelity. NC is the biggest area of removing opportunity for infidelity.

I think the implementation of MB principles can reduce the likelihood of infidelity with many couples, but I firmly believe that there are other causes for infidelity that are not based on the failure to meet EMs.

NC is necessary to stop an affair from re-occuring with a particular individual, but that doesn't prevent an adulterous relationship with someone else.

MB also provides some insight about taking care not to place yourself in a position where infidelity is likely to occur, i.e., talking about problems with your marriage to a person of the opposite sex.

I do not believe, however, there is any way to affair-proof your marriage.

No matter how you cut it, character is still an issue.

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I think we all have this general idea that if we all govern ourselves appropriately, or the "right" way then our society will function properly. So we punish the outstanding instances where people don't act the "right" way. The trouble with this is that what is right is a very gray area, as it's influenced by so many different factors and the degree to which people even want to behave properly is a subjective thing as well.

In general, this is certainly true. However, some things are a matter of black and white. I think infidelity is one of those things.

Some indications of the wrongness of it are the breaking of a promise (explicitly or implicitly made), the pain inflicted on the spouse and children, and the selfishness of the act.

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No matter how you cut it, character is still an issue.



Hiker:

I agree with you that having an AFFAIR is MORALLY WRONG.

However, I don't fully get what you mean by the statement above.

Last edited by mimi1254; 11/15/06 02:15 PM.

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Some people have a loosely held moral code, a sort of code of moral expediency. What is expedient at the time is what determines the values held.

Others have a much stronger adherence to their own moral code. We would ordinarily call these people of character.

Where the threshold exists that separates the two, I cannot say.

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I view my FWH as a MAN OF CHARACTER..A MAN WITH CHARACTER..

He had a BREACH in his CHARACTER which continues to cause him much RAW, RAW EMOTIONAL PAIN when he goes there now into his soul....It is SCARY TO SEE...It's like he's been to the GATES OF ****** and back...

That's because he is basically a MAN OF CHARACTER.


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That can certainly be the case; no one has an absolute adherence to their moral code -- at least no one I have ever met.

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And so, in our case, Steve H. stressed how his affair was an ADDICTION....

Now that I think of it one thing that stands out in my H's case has been is acknowledgement to me from D-Day that what he was doing was "WRONG". He states that he never could get the FOW to agree to this..with her trying to convince him that the A was not "WRONG". For a long while, he felt that what he did to BOTH OF US was "WRONG" but he has come to see her as a participant in the "WRONGNESS" as the fog has lifted over the years...he sees her as being just as "BAD" as he was...

As is true with others here, his continued guilt about her used to really bother me but it has vanished over the years.


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Sadly, I hear the other side of that: "What's right for me may not be what's right for everyone else." The interesting thing is that even though this is clearly a lie that she believes, it would seem counter to the objective of creating an environment conducive to brain chemical production because it takes away the element of doing wrong. Then again, it's likely only for outward appearances. That and she's probably trying to convince herself that this is a workable relationship and not a fantasy.

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I think another point worth mentioning here is that not all moral values are universal. For instance, it might be perceived as a strength to take the found money, even a moral stregth if your purpose is to use this money for the good of your family or subgroup. I think moral values often come into conflict and very often there are many factors that come into play at the moment a moral judgement is made.

I don't look at it as much as whether moral values are universal vs. has the value system of that individual changed. In the case of infidelity, it clearly has.


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I think the implementation of MB principles can reduce the likelihood of infidelity with many couples, but I firmly believe that there are other causes for infidelity that are not based on the failure to meet EMs.

NC is necessary to stop an affair from re-occuring with a particular individual, but that doesn't prevent an adulterous relationship with someone else.

MB also provides some insight about taking care not to place yourself in a position where infidelity is likely to occur, i.e., talking about problems with your marriage to a person of the opposite sex.

IMHO, "environment control" runs through many of the MB principles. NC is just the first one. The 15 hours a week has an element of eliminating opportunities. Being an open book, PORH, etc.

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I do not believe, however, there is any way to affair-proof your marriage.

Of course there is, lock you and your spouse up with no contact to the outside world. Ok, I'm joking, but I think the point of the MB principles is to reduce opportunities and ability to rationalize at the same time. Just simple math if someone has the opportunity 50% of the time and the ability to rationalize it 50% of the time than there is a 25% chance for an A to occur. If you cut one of those down to 25%, the chance for an A to occur is 12.5%. If you cut both of them down by 25%, the chance is 6.1%. If you cut either 1 to zero, you've affair proofed your marriage. But if that is not possible if you cut both of them down to 1%, the odds of an affair are 0.01%. Which is pretty close to affair proof.

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No matter how you cut it, character is still an issue.

Don't think I'd agree with that.


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From Dr. Frank Gunzburg"

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Out of the multitude of options you have, there is one that you gave up when you got married. You gave up the option to have an affair. By having an affair, your spouse has showed that he or she has a character problem. This broken promise is a reflection of a "hole" in your spouse's character.

There may be any number of reasons this weakness of character exists. Perhaps your spouse has a difficult time keeping promises. Perhaps he or she can't accept the reality that people and relationships aren't perfect. Or perhaps he or she has an unresolved childhood issue regarding trust or integrity. Whatever the reason, it is this "leak" in your spouse's character that caused the affair. Not you.

If two people are confronted with the same conditions for creating an opportunity to have an affair, with one submitting to temptation and one not, I think that can be labeled a matter of character.

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I agree that following MB principles greatly reduces the opportunities for infidelity. I don't know if anything really affects one's ability to rationalize it.

I read someone's story recently -- probably here -- regarding the infidelity of a wife who was a psychologist! Here is someone who should understand the pathology of an affair and yet still engaged in it.

You could say in this case that one's intellect and reason were overpowered by emotion, which is probably true in most affairs.

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Hiker45, Do you the reference of the book you are quoting ( Frank Gunzburg) ? Thanks

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Who is Frank Gunzburg?

What is the basis of his viewpoint?

I'm pretty sure that the Harleys would not agree with this point of view.

I don't have the book with me...but early on in Surviving an Affair..Dr. Harley makes it clear that he thinks that any of us could have an affair. Steve Harley didn't want to listen to my psychological theories about the underlying causes for my FWH's affair. The point was: "what will be helpful now will be for you to do THESE PLANS..PLAIN AND SIMPLE...

Last edited by mimi1254; 11/16/06 10:36 AM.

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Dr. Frank Gunzberg is a practicing psychologist in the Baltimore area.

The source of the quote above is from an article that appears on his blog.

Here is a short piece he wrote about why cheaters cheat:

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Unfortunately, there is not one simple answer that addresses why all people who get involved in affairs do so. People are complex and engage in infidelity for different reasons. When we talk about the “reasons” the affair happened, it might seem as though the affair were inevitable or somehow a justifiable course of action. I don’t want to give you that impression. As such, it might be better to think of these as themes for the justification of the affair, rather than the “reason” it happened. Here are a few themes that seem to come up again and again:



· Some people cheat because they aren’t getting their needs met inside their relationships. They are under the deluded notion that going outside their relationships is a legitimate answer. It isn’t.



· In some cases, people cheat because they have never learned to honor boundaries. They know the boundaries are there, but they have little hesitation about stepping over them.



· Some people are thrill seekers who just can’t pass up the opportunity to get a thrill. The very fact that these people are doing something that is taboo compels them to engage in the affair.



· Similarly, some men think that they are not a real man if they turn down a sexual invitation from someone attractive.



· Some people have low self-esteem, and they get a sense of self-worth through finding people who care about them.



· In some cases, people have sexual fetishes that their partners have problems with, so they go outside their relationships in order to fulfill these sexual desires.



· A very common theme is that people cheat because their partners no longer make them feel special. These people go outside their relationships thinking that another person might fill this gap.

Whatever the underlying reasons, cheaters cheat because they have the mistaken notion that going outside their relationships will solve their problems or fulfill some aspects of their characters.

Some people have a defective sense of commitment. (I most commonly see this in men.) They might expect themselves to be totally honest in other situations, but feel they don’t have to be when it comes to women. Although they usually vehemently deny it at first, these men have a denigrating view of women, putting them in a second-class position. I am assuming that the men reading this book are much less likely to be in this group because you are devoting this time and energy to repairing your relationship, which requires equitability between you and your partner.

In the end, the reason why cheaters cheat is not of paramount importance. You can ask why they did what they did until you’re blue in the face, and each scenario could present a different answer.

The typical reason it is so important to the injured person to find out why the affair happened is based on the mistaken notion that if you want to stop or change a behavior, you have to know what triggered the behavior in the first place. If you don’t know why it happened, the thinking goes, you can’t stop it from happening again. Unfortunately, if you try to find out why the affair happened, the best you will probably get is some kind of justification for why it started, or perhaps a list of factors that are built to make the infidelity seem like less of a crime than it is.

More importantly, you don’t have to know why an action happened to keep it from happening again. In some cases, exploring what went into the cheater’s choice to cheat can help protect them against the possibility of cheating again, but this isn’t universally the case, and it isn’t what is going to keep your partner from cheating in the future. That will take hard work and commitment. Neither you nor your partner needs to investigate what lead to the affair to recommit to being faithful to each other.

What is important is that both of you want to heal your relationship and are ready to do the work necessary to achieve that objective. The techniques this book is founded on will help you restore your relationship regardless of why the cheating partner decided to have an affair.

It is time to let this question go. Recognize that there may be reasons that this happened, but that figuring out the reasons doesn’t take you that much closer to rebuilding your relationship together. What will move you in that direction is figuring out what you need in this relationship, how those needs have been neglected, and how your needs interface with your partner’s needs.

Last edited by Justuss; 11/17/06 04:37 PM.
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