I don't know whether the Dr. Harley would agree with Dr. Gunzburg or not.

My purpose in quoting anyone, whether it be Pittman, Glass, Dobson, or anybody else, is to offer assistance in understanding infidelity.

I am like most folks here; looking for answers. The fact that all these professionals may or may not agree doesn't diminish my interest in their viewpoints.

It strikes me that infidelity is sufficiently complex to entertain a variety of valid opinions.

But Hiker...

Respectfully keep in mind that we are visiting the Harley's website and they strongly recommend strict adherence to their approach.

I am not recommending an approach. I am offering information that may be of benefit.

If you read my intial post to this thread you will see that I clearly stated that only Dr. Harley offers a method of stopping the affair: Plan A/B.

I hope we aren't going to get into the kind of intolerance than drove WAT from this site.

Please veer OT for a bit and tell me what happened with WAT. He was one of my SAVIORS after D-DAY and during MY PLAN A.

I like your disclaimer, Hiker.

In my experience, understanding the A is coming moreso NOW during my PERSONAL RECOVERY.

Early on, I think it's key to FOCUS ON WORKING ON THE PLANS..STAYING IN THE HEAT OF THE BATTLE.

While THERE, there's not much time for intellectualizing. Plus, IMO, it can result in confusion..INFORMATION OVERLOAD...that was my experience. I could only focus on MBer's and barely could do that without the assistance of the folks here.

WAT e-mailed me some time ago that he was leaving the MB boards because he felt the moderators were not reigning in certain posters who were -- I believe he said -- religious bigots.

I never really read the threads where they debated religious issues, probably because I know from experience that such debates usually become heated and rarely persuade the participants to adopt a different view.

Incidentally, I am all for following a plan for ending the affair and recovering the marriage, however, there are more than a few folks here who can't follow a strict Plan A/B because of their circumstances.

For some BSs, intellectualizing may be a key to gaining an understanding of a situation that seemingly defies understanding.

Thanks for filling me in about WAT, Hiker.

I think your thread is very helpful.

However, I think there is need for care not to give the ALLUSION of ADVOCATING OTHER APPROACHES on a site that is OWNED by the Harleys.

I'm thinking that you don't want to do that. Right?

From Penalty Kill

I hope that you both don't mind me dropping in to your thread. I have been following it for some time, with interest.

I think Mimi, that the Harleys offer a very tried and true method for dealing with the problem of infidelity. Actually, their approach and the AA/NA approach to addiction are very, very similar. That was the first thing I noticed.

Of course you will have the theories about whether alcoholism/drug addiction is a defect of character or a disease. Not everyone agrees. The Harleys treat infidelity as a disease that must be identified and dealt with every single day. NC/abstinence - realize your powerlessness/protect your weaknesses, etc.

(And of course there are groups out there that say you don't need to abstain from alcohol/drugs the way AA/NA describe. That it can be managed in other ways than abstinence. I just know that doesn't work for me. I just don't drink - period. In the same way I am very glad that I haven't had to see OM for years. It was much easier when I decided to go NC. I'm always skeptical when a WS says that they can work w/OP and still be in recovery. But I digress....)

In so far as character, this is where Steve Harley (and presumeably his father) discuss protecting your weaknessses. Some people are better at knowing their weaknesses and thus, protecting them. Some people are ignorant of their weaknesses (that would be me, in the past tense) and thus fail to protect them.

Is the fact that I didn't protect my weaknesses a character issue? Some would say yes, some would say no.

I guess that I'm interested in views from all sides. I take what seems to apply to me and discard the rest.

The "180" is a plan that has been used by a number of people on this site, presumably with some success. It is not a Harley plan; it comes from counselor Michelle Davis.

Although I have not posted any part of the "180" myself, I have seen a number of references to it in this forum. Do you think that Dr. Harley would object to any mention of it on this website since it doesn't represent a strict adherence to his plans?

Penaltybox,

Dr. Harley once operated a series of clinics treating drug addiction. To his mind, an addiction to an affair can be treated in the same way as an addiction to drugs or alcohol.

Posted by Hiker:

"Another study recently done by a west coast psychologist (I can't remember his name) concluded that the chief factor contributing to infidelity was opportunity. It was his assertion that most people who have not cheated on their spouse simply didn't have the opportunity to do so.
I don't agree with that view. I have had a number of opportunities to cheat and haven't done so."

I have to agree with you here, Hiker.

I also have had plenty of chances to cheat - but chose not to. Plus, I also took responsibility to (as much as practical/possible) eliminate temptation from my environment.

I think this ties in with loss of respect for the BS as maybe a factor with the WS's justification though.

Since my WH obviously did not resist temptation, let alone try to prevent temptation, he must have assumed that my being faithful was mostly based on no other man wanting me?

In fact "No man would want you" is something that he actually said to me many times while he was involved with OW. Apparently having no sense that he is responsible for his own choices, that each of his affairs 'just happened'... I guess he must have thought the ONLY reason I wasn't fooling around too was because I had no opportunity to?

Weirdness

I honestly don't think he'll show any indication of regret until I'm involved with another man. And I'd be willing to bet all he'll do then is blame ME for breaking HIS heart...

Actually, I was very specifically told NOT TO DO THE 180 PLAN by Steve Harley after being recommended to do this by folks on the forum.

I started my counseling with him with lots of knowledge about psychology and lots of theories about the causes for my H's affair.

He wanted me to focus on working on the PLANS and wanted me to focus on seeing my H's A as an ADDICTION.

I recall him saying: "You have got to get this"....

That's why I am so biased in my view.

However, I do believe that my H's affair was a ROMANTIC AFFAIR.. so I find this discussion to be interesting.

But regardless of that and the other CAUSES of his affair, I attribute our RECOVERY to use of the MB PLANS.... PLAN A then PLAN B....now the FOUR RULES in RECOVERY....

I do think that some WSs make this assumption. Just as I think many WSs believe they can cheat and not get caught, probably because some don't.

Hi Mimi,

I.ve been reading your discussion with Hiker:

"Now that I think of it one thing that stands out in my H's case has been is acknowledgement to me from D-Day that what he was doing was "WRONG". He states that he never could get the FOW to agree to this..with her trying to convince him that the A was not "WRONG". For a long while, he felt that what he did to BOTH OF US was "WRONG" but he has come to see her as a participant in the "WRONGNESS" as the fog has lifted over the years...he sees her as being just as "BAD" as he was...As is true with others here, his continued guilt about her used to really bother me but it has vanished over the years."

It sounds as if your WH was a man of character who succombed to temptation (rather than a person who committed adulteries because of a pre-existing lack of integrity).

It seems that a lot of adulterers are not repeat offenders and do sincerely regret (eventually). But some (like my WH) are serial adulterers and really do have a character flaw. Furthermore, our culture is promoting the adultery mindset and adultery temptations. So maybe adultery is becoming more widespread and integrity becoming rarer?

I have given a lot of thought about (OK obsessed over LOL) why the WS has such resistance to admitting the OP did something wrong too. I've heard it is more common for WH's to defend the OW than for a WW to defend the OM. Is it the WH's thinking that it would be ungentlemanly to not defend the OW? IMO it just further hurts the BW.

(In fact I wouldn't even consider reconciliation until after my WH was able to prove he no longer felt the OW were in any way superior to me or 'innocent', 'good girls', blah-blah-blah. Not saying ALL BW's should have that condition before reconciliation attempt - I've tried reconciliation without it though and WH never gave up thinking of OW as anything but innocent - YUCK!)

I find my WW is directly projects her actions on me, saying things that she is doing is what I have done to make her. She feels justified in her actions because of previous. She feels that she is in the clear because we are legally separated but she still goes to church and leaves out the part of the OM. They are so manipulating when they stray

Hi Mere:

I am beginning to recognize now that my FWH is different than the serial adulterers. He was an upstanding person in our church and in our community..people looked up to him...and us as the "PERFECT COUPLE". He fits the stereotype of the FALLEN MAN and he sees himself that way. It really PAINS him.

Maybe that's why Steve focused on the ADDICTION theory moreso.

About the OW..she was from the other side of the tracks and he was "walking on the wild side"...they partied and were WILD..YUCK.. She was much younger and he did HELP her alot and I "hate" that..It seems that too much GOOD came out of the A for her..he encouraged her to go to college and to buy a house... But I don't know, REALLY...what her life is like now...I wanted her to SUFFER more... Alot of this I have figured out and learned since our RECOVERY. As I said earlier, when I was caught up in it, I felt CRAZY and did not have much time to THINK about it . I'm just PROCESSING a lot of it NOW after 3 years.

Mimi,

Believe me when I say I am very glad to hear you have successfully recovered your marriage. It is an inspiration for all of us. And it may well be that the MB way was the only way that would have worked for you.

The underlying assumption in MB is that infidelity is the result of one spouse not meeting the cheating spouse's emotional needs.

Quite frankly, in my opinion this is just one of many possible causes for infidelity. There are different types of cheaters and different reasons that they cheat.

Ok, Hiker.

I hear you.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

This is guilt transference in action. The best way to alleviate the guilt is by assigning blame to you or to the marriage.



A separation somehow seems to allow cheaters to engage in the affair "honestly." To them, separation must be as good as a divorce when it comes to pursuing the affair.

I have to agree with Hiker here. In my case, the ENs that I am faulted by my WW for not meeting in my marriage were needs that no-one could be expected to meet - not that I couldn't have been a better husband, I could have and am working towards that now. My wife wants to be rescued from her own feelings - and I'm to blame for not doing so. Until she's able to reconcile her expectations with reality, no marriage she has will work. She's looking to relationships to fix herself, to make her whole. No amount of tring on my part will accomplish this.

I too am inspired by your recovery.

I think the trouble with discussing something so near to us in a general sense is that we tend to apply our experiences to the phenomenon in general. We analyze our situation and see enough parallels in others' stories to reinforce our findings, and we find ourselves not looking to each person's story as unique, but rather looking for what we believe to be there in the story.

I hear you, too, STRONG AND CLEAR, Muddled....

However, with some reservation, I have to add that much of what you say about your WW I thought about my H...but I was still encouraged to focus on the ENs in dealing specifically with the AFFAIR..some of our MARITAL ISSUES and STOPPING THE AFFAIR were TWO DIFFERENT THINGS..Make sense?

MB is aimed at bringing an end to AFFAIRS..not helping to resolve MARITAL ISSUES..

It is a BEHAVIORAL APPROACH..much like helping folks with their ADDICTIONS...

In the mental health field, regardless of whether a person is depressed, anxious, bipolar or had an abusive childhood causing issues in adulthood (true for both me and my H) or what have you, SUBSTANCE ABUSE COUNSELORS TREAT THE ADDICTION FIRST. Make sense?

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

I see the validity to that approach. Certainly there's no way to work on a marriage while an affair is ongoing - especially an RA. But on some level, the addict has to want to change. They have to recognize that they are using to mask their pain, or to fill a void and they have to resolve that problem as well. If the affair is simply destroyed without the underlying problem getting resolved, the addiction will simply transfer to another "substance".