This is probably too risky. The WS has already developed a powerful emotional attachment to the OP, creating a crisis atmosphere might just give the WS justifiable reasons for leaving the BS. One objective of Plan A is to take away any true justification for leaving the marriage.

But Dr. Pittman's advice certainly bears repeating:

“I advise spouse’s who are waiting for their mate’s romance to end: don’t try to out-romance a romantic. Don’t bother to arouse jealousy. Don’t try to get your partner’s attention, increase your partner’s guilt, or threaten some kind of unpleasantness. Just express your point of view and then go off and do whatever holds you together during this time.”

my H is definitly the follower...just as he was in our relationship

and i agree that this makes breaking up the A even more difficult

they are like puppets waiting for the next string to be pulled




when i first found out about the A and kicked my H out....told him i wanted a D...he realized that he was going to lose me and he fought hard to keep me which led to our recovery....for the 8 months it took for him to see that the threat was gone...then he started seeing OW again so it was a false recovery

so the threat of losing me made him take action until the threat was over

before they moved in together, my SIL told me that my H explained his continued "cake eating" by saying that the relationship with OW was very on again, off again, and that each time OW broke things off, he would increase his contact with me "just in case things didn't work out with OW"

so i agree that just the threat of losing OW put my H into a panic while he never thought i'd be going anywhere

right now, as long as i don't take the step to file for D, he knows that i'm not going anywhere...not that i think he cares

and OWH is always right up the street living with OW's mother and at least some of their 4 children...i'd say he fears losing her back to her H and that keeps the thrill, the fear, the romance and the A alive and going strong

Sometimes, the WS doesn't even care that they may lose the BS, and even their entire family. Or they believe that all (the WS, the OP and the BS) will 'after a few months' and 'after the dust has settled' be friends together - this way, the WS can continue cake eating.

The OP can use threats of ending the relationship to complete the split between the WS and the BS. In complete ignorance, the BS continues to live as they always have, perhaps confused by the WS's behaviour towards them but having no real idea what is going on, whilst behind the scenes the WS and the OP are involved in high drama - the OP saying the A is over unless the WS leaves the BS for them.

Passion and high drama compared to a dull ignorance - not much of a contest really.

Alph.

Well, again, a person's insecurities can be used against them. Some people have learned this to their advantage; it allows them a certain amount of control by manipulation.

Philanderers are notorious for this because they remain emotionally detached during their affairs. People with low self-esteem and deep insecurities are especially vulnerable to their tactics.

Even some parents use a child's insecurities against them, punishing them by "withholding love" as a means of controlling their behavior.

But you can well imagine that the effect is heightened in affairs. Just like an addictive drug, the affairees want that brain chemical high and if they think the decision to get it might be taken out of their hands they often panic, increasing their desire and passion even higher. So when one of the affairees makes noises about breaking up or even just backing off a little, the other may suffer an ego-driven desire to cling to their lover and make just about any sacrifice to prove their love.

The biggest problem for the BS is the failure to understand the mindset of the WS. To the BS, nothing the WS does seems to make any sense. The BS can't understand why the WS would sacrifice a marriage, their children, their financial health, etc., to pursue the affair. In short, the BS is still thinking in reasonable terms.

But once the WS is in the grip of the affair, all but the most mundane decisions are driven by emotion, not reason. Logic is twisted to fit the emotional wants and desires of the WS.

You might just as well think of the WS as a different person, because as long as he/she is in the throws of the affair that is exactly the case.

Some WSs, being forced to make a decision between the BS and the OP, actually regain enough of their ability to reason during the course of the affair to make the decision to end it. Some don't.

Once the passion fades in the affair most WSs realize the sacrifices were too high a price to pay for the relatively short term thrill. They might attempt to go back to their marital partner at that time, but it isn't unusual for the BS to be beyond reconciliation at that point. And there are always those WSs whose shame and guilt will prevent them from ever going back. A few manage to convince themselves that the affair could only have occurred in a bad marriage, so ending it is just as well. And still fewer actually maintain the affair until it develops into a committed relationship.

Yeah I understand that. It kind of links back to my original question about tactics may be different depending on the nature of the OP and the dynamics of the affair.


I think also sometimes it takes the crisis out of everything leaving the WS with no crisis to manage, which can clear out some of the brain.


Maybe - but plan B is a pretty high risk strategy too. Don't get me wrong. I'm not advising any one to do this, nor am I doing it myself. I'm pretty much on the path I'm on so to speak. I'm just thinking out loud, so to speak.


Can't argue with that.


Eav - sorry to hear that. Its an awful thing for someone to say. I've had my share of false recoveries. They really rot. What is your plan now?


I think it is most often the latter. Which is some really foggy thinking.


Thus my musings on the BS adding some crisis to the M.


It may sound odd, but I never had a problem understanding it. I'm not saying I thought it was right, I just could easily understand the WS's thinking.

Yes, it's high risk in terms of marital reconciliation, but not in terms of personal recovery. Many people think the primary objective of Plan B is to bring their spouse back, but Dr. Harley says the real objective is to prevent the betrayed spouse's resentment from building to the point where they lose what love they still have, thereby killing any desire for reconciliation. Dr. Harley is counting on the affair burning out. But as a side benefit, the betrayed spouse gets an opportunity to re-focus his/her life on improving self, rather than suffering the anguish of witnessing their spouse's efforts to pursue their affair from a ringside seat.

I can personally vouch for this. By refusing to interact with my WH (as he was then) I saved myself a lot of heartache.

It's always amazed me how many people don't understand the need for the BS for protect themselves in this way - especially when you have children. I was given so many guilt trips by so-called friends, saying that I should be friends with my ex for the sake of the kids - it would make things so much better for them etc.

Whilst this may be possible in a divorce situation without infidelity, I can't imagine it happens much when the BS is left for the OP. One of the main reasons I initially went into NC with my WH was because the meetings we were having were actually harming the children, because I was quite literally getting ill with grief and pain.

How is this better for the children? Better that there is no contact between parents who can only harm each other than attempting to force some kind of unnatural 'friendship' from the situation.

Alph.

Hiker, you have previously referred to some articles by Pittman (in Psychology Today?), I think. Can you point me at those?

SDG

I can see your point, but my situation seems to be somewhat different. My friends and family are wondering why I'm holding out any hope and think I should just move on. Those closest get it now, but I feel like I constantly need to educate people on how romantic affairs work when I tell them what I'm going through, because most people don't understand the insanity of it.

I know that at some point I can be friendly with my WW, and I think it might actually be easier to just let her go and start doing it now. I am confident that I can go out and find someone else to be with, probably someone who is a better match for me. For the sake of all parties involved (my kids, her, myself, the OMW and her kids), however, I am opting for Plan B, at least for a while.

I could probably have some kind of relationship with my ex, if it wasn't for the OW.

She won't let him discuss anything without her - not even our children. And I refuse to have her near me, and will not reply to correspondence from my ex about our children because she co-signs it.

It is very, very difficult. In the future, I know that I will have to talk to my ex, but only about the children - I have no other reason to communicate with him. But I refuse to discuss our children with the OW.

Alph.

sdguy,

Try this link: http://www.psychologytoday.com/search/search.cgi?q=pittman

Alph,

I agree that it's better for the kids to get away from the offending spouse. Think about it this way: The BS gets stressed out because of the daily reminders that his/her spouse is cheating. Being stressed out can cause the BS to have a lot less patience in dealing with the children. I can see this in myself, and I really have to guard against it.

I don't think anyone who hasn't personally experienced being victimized by an affair can truly comprehend how emotionally devastating it is.

Most people do not even understand what romantic affairs are all about. They automatically assume the marriage must have been bad.

Oh, the people who don't understand the horrors of affairs...I've been faced with them, my sister being one. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

Not long ago she said, " I can't believe you would force your H to sell his childhood home". Argh, I was pissed!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

I explained the sitch, that he could buy this house from beneath me, as it is like slow torture living here, but I will not give up my rights to the life I have grown accustomed to because my WH decides he wants to 'date' others. She gets it now, but that was a rough conversation.

As for the stillness of Plan B, I feel that it is better for my son to have a 'sane' mommy, and the only way for me to achieve that is to separate myself physically and emotionally from WH. It's a godsend for me...as is this forum...

If I could just clarify - my kids have had access to their father since he left, the day after D/day. It's only me who has no contact with him.

Even though he lives with the OW, I think it is important for them to know him - broken families are bad enough, but kids without any fatherly contact do worst of all, I think.

It took me a long time to feel anything less than total devastation knowing that my kids were forming bonds, not only with their father, but with the OW as well. And yes, she is a frightful person in many ways, but she isn't actually unpleasant to my kids.

Now I have accepted it. I have accepted that Ex and the OW are a couple - who will probably marry and form a long-term relationship. I have accepted that the OW is a part of my children's lives. And that she influences them often in ways that I don't approve of (and I can't believe that Ex allows), but I have to let it lie and try to 'make the adjustment' when the kids are with me.


Plan B is like a relaxation/floatation tank, no? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> All that chaos going on outside, but you are sealed inside this protective shell, being kind to yourself, concentrating on making things better for you.

Alph.

Right, Alph. I should have said the kids are better off out of the tense environment that exists when the WS and the BS are together in conflict.

"Private Lies" by Pittman goes into much detail about the different TYPES of affairs. I firmly believe my H is in a romantic affair

Pittman says, as marriage builders does, that many times, by stalling the D, the WS may come to his senses and reconciliation is possible

however, Pittman does add that sometimes in the case of a romantic affair, stalling the D just gives the WS and OW a little extra excitement that keeps the A going strong

any thoughts on this based upon your experiences or readings?

My WH is fully entrenched in a romantic A. I tried to stall as long as I could and our MC tried to talk some sense into WH but it was ineffective. WH tracked me down and served me with D papers at work. Personally, I think he was having a hard time living with his sin and if he just filed for D immediately, it would justify his romantic A. The OW comes before me and he's made that very clear.

Eav,

I've had a lot of time to evaluate a few things regarding the "romantic" type affair, and I have come to some conclusions about it.

First, if a BS, upon discovery of the affair, can fairly look back on their marriage as being a good one, then I think Plan A is an unnecessary hardship on the BS. What is a good marriage? No clear-cut definition is possible because, like beauty, it is in the eye of the beholder. But it should be relatively free of major blow-ups, disrespect, sexual hang-ups, daily conflicts, etc. If the BS feels that the marriage was a good one, AND if there is evidence that the WS felt the marriage was good prior to the affair (don't bother to ask about this after the affair), then what would be the point of trying to show the WS how good the marriage could be with a Plan A? The marriage was already good. Post-affair, it will only go downhill. WSs rarely allow you to start meeting any unmet emotional needs while in the affair. Instead, the BS gets pushed into a kind of nebulous relationship devoid of affection, the "I'm not in love with you but I still care about you" syndrome. The resentment builds until some kinds of lovebusters are almost unavoidable; these serve to help the WS justify the affair.

Some will argue that Plan A provides a stable environment for the WS to retreat to for security, etc. But I think the security and stability actually contribute to fence-sitting, which is probably why Plan A is rarely successful in forcing an affair to end.

I've come to the conclusion that most folks (in good marriages) facing a cheating spouse involved in a romantic relationship would be better served by going directly to Plan B. Leave or throw the cheater out. Force the cheater to face the consequences immediately. Force them to make a decision to come back to the marriage or continue cheating. In the meantime, the BS should start planning a life apart. After a reasonable amount of time, if the cheater has not returned to the marriage, get a divorce.

Harsh, isn't it? And it can be difficult to implement because of finances and children, not to mention one's emotional investment in the marriage. But I think it would spare one from having to witness their cheating spouse from a front row seat, absorbing disrespect, living in a house with the "elephant" in the room, and an atmosphere that over a period of time must be detrimental to the emotional health of any children.

Let me reiterate that I am talking about very specific circumstances: a good marriage disrupted by a romantic affair. Shakey marriages would likely benefit by a good Plan A.

The veteran MBer Worthatry told me he regretted having run his Plan A too long. Maybe he felt that when a Plan A goes on long enough, it actually re-establishes your relationship with your spouse as something completely different; something akin to platonic, which may never permit a recovery of the romantic aspects of your prior relationship.

Anyway, Pittman, a counselor who has dealt with thousands of couples, advocates this:

“I advise spouse’s who are waiting for their mate’s romance to end: don’t try to out-romance a romantic. Don’t bother to arouse jealousy. Don’t try to get your partner’s attention, increase your partner’s guilt, or threaten some kind of unpleasantness. Just express your point of view and then go off and do whatever holds you together during this time.”

I can't disagree with that.

Totally agree Hiker. Amazing people even think that is a valid excuse until it happens to them.