Time to let all of that go, and give him credit for getting rid of her.

Assume that he DOES want to work on the marriage, and watch him closely.

Do the two of you spend 15 hours a week doing fun things together.

Lousygolfer,

Welcome back!


I hear you. But what a relief it is that Monday through Saturday, she is not there to look at, talk to, be admired by and so forth.


Yes, and for the sake of TRUE recovery, this is my immediate goal.

Whether or not my husband goes back into contact with his former secretary will be very telling for me.

Moving right along toward a recovery mentality, what do you think makes a man be honest with his wife?

Believer,

I've been thinking a lot about what you said in your last couple posts.

I appreciate the inspiration you have given me at a time like this.

Last night, I was so frustrated, I slept with my wedding ring OFF. This morning, I put it back on.

That's how I am emotionally if I can't get "honesty" from my husband while we are working on the recovery of our marriage.

But I think we can start over. We may have already started (update below)...

Wow, what a kiss.

Rewind. Even though it seemed questionable, I must have done something right.

Knowing that "turning around and walking away" is the only thing that seems to work with my husband, I decided to try something.

I sort of avoided him, waiting for him to be ready to tell me the rest of the story that he didn't finish on Sunday.

The first time ever, I walked out (one door) of the house the minute he walked in (another door) for lunch.

After lunch, he found me in another building on the property and wanted to say good-bye.

Well, he was somewhat emotional and gave me the best hug and kiss I can ever remember, and we both had to fight back the tears.

We have plans to continue where we left off, once the kids are in bed tonight.

I think this is a good time for us to start over.

After all, we hardly have been spending 1 hour of fun time together a week lately.

BUT...what he doesn't know is that FIRST he has to tell me what he did on Tuesday night of last week.

I realize this could cause a loss of romance that has already begun.

But I know now, from studying snooping records all day yesterday, that he didn't spend much time on Tuesday at the office after hours - to my relief.

So I think I can get the truth out of him tonight BEFORE Sexual Fulfillment (it's been weeks, and as of today my health has finally improved).

You see, somehow I need to train him to whisper "sweet honesties" into my ear before making love with me.

Normally, that wouldn't be very good timing. But for him I think it will work!

Perhaps this process will help him to realize that as much as he needs a physical relationship with me, I need an honesty relationship with him.

I feel as if I have no other choice than to work with him like this if I am going to be happy too.

Yes, he needs sex. But she (me) needs honesty.

I believe both of those needs should be met for a successful recovery.

Uh...

I didn't have the heart to ruin a good night (regarding my last post, which was edited to add more details).

Maybe next time.

I now have the rest of the story.

Or so I think.

Last night, we talked (in the dark, since I was trying to keep it short and get some sleep).

He asked me what I was thinking about. I told him that I was thinking about what he did Tuesday night of last week and why he wouldn't be honest with me about it when I asked.

I could see right away that he was going to take a detour in telling me the truth.

First it was "I might have..."

Then it was "I may have..."

Then it was...

He was really playing dumb, I thought.

But I made too much sense. He couldn't back out knowing that I KNEW there was more he needed to tell me.

He thinks that I had somebody "watching" him.

Well, yes, that's me (tracker, keylogger).

Good. Now he might behave himself, huh?

I imagine he's going to be looking over his shoulder a lot from now on. And I don't even have to pay a Private Investigator!

Anyway, this time, our conversation was calm (Thank you, Steve Harley!).

He hardly accused me or blamed me of much. But he could have buried me alive with EXCUSES (that I didn't fall for).

He finally told me that he went back to the office after hours while I was out of town and failed to tell me.

Then he asked me why I made love with him the night before if things "weren't right" with us.

I told him that I did ask him for honesty the weekend before, didn't want to ruin a great night, was trying to recover our marriage, and wanted him to know that I love him.

I take it that he thinks he can sweep things under the rug as long as we have Sexual Fulfillment (SF) and that's how everything will be okay.

We talked about how important SF must be for him, but how important honesty must be for me.

That's when we agreed (whatever that's worth) to do BOTH, but not one without the other.

Wow. If that works, this could be a real milestone!

At some point in the conversation, I brought up his email because he tried to claim that he had "no relationship at all" with his former secretary.

And that from HIS point of view, he hadn't thought it was important to let me know about his office activities because of his innocence.

I just about blew, but held my composure, while I reminded him that when a husband talks about personal things with another woman and has a pet name for her too, but hides it all from his wife, THAT IS considered a "relationship" and that he flunked the test of innocence.

Then, he was really taken aback when he found out that I had since recovered his latest "deleted" email to his other secretary when he called himself her "friend and boss".

He said something to the effect, "Can't I have friends"?

To turn his babbling excuse inside out, I asked him what if she takes it the wrong way? And why didn't he send me a carbon copy if he's not trying to hide anything from me?

I told him that it was a coincidence that I recovered that email and that I couldn't recover all his deleted email, but if I were able to, I don't know WHAT I would find.

Today, he must be feeling as naked as Adam in the Garden of Eden, knowing that his wife is paying close attention just when he thought he could do as he pleased behind her back.

I'm feeling somewhat relieved today since the ball is back in his court again.

That's after he tried to put the responsibility on me by asking me to remind him when he's being dishonest with me.

I gave the responsibility right back to him by suggesting that he setup "beeping" honesty reminders on his cell phone.

So either he is going to stop making excuses for his secretive behavior or he just won't get SF with his wife.

I have no idea what will happen next.

I do know, however CHARMING he is, that it's as hard for him to be Open & Honest as it is for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle.

But with God, all things are possible...

Observing - it's nice to see that your sense of humor is still intact even after dealing with all of this drama. Still, I know you must be wearing thin ... take care of yourself.

Obs:

What's Up?

LG

Fiatflux,

Thanks for the encouragement. You made me smile.

Lousygolfer,

It's nice to know that people care.

Update coming...

I was laughing the other day.

But I didn't post, because I wasn't ready yet.

I was waiting to find out what was going on in our marriage recovery.

I had come home from a trip with a couple of my kids, only for my husband to turn his head away from me after I greeted him so that I wouldn't notice he was SURPRISED by my suntan.

It had just turned out to be a great week for weather/activities and the outcome was an awesome suntan.

What a cold homecoming, I thought. Oh, well.

But I continued to smile and walked confidently, and went on with the evening with the same joy I came home with.

After all, my (marital stress) hemorrhaging had dried up while I was away (coincidence, huh?) and I had been working on having confidence in being "enough" so that I can become a better person overall during this crisis.

Later, his words were, "I've never seen you with a suntan like that".

Boy, he's right.

And now, more things are going to change too. You see, I don't want to allow him to pull me down. I think I need some confidence boosters.

So I would like to return to my wedding-day weight, as a new personal goal. I think it would make me feel better about myself.

He's already concerned about my hair and nails taking on more youthful, feminine effects – naturally.

But today, I'm exhausted.

This morning, I had another meeting with my husband. This time it was over the phone.

It's the same old thing.

I keep running into a BRICK WALL when (occasionally) confiding my need for honesty from him.

So we're back to: NO sex without honesty.

Apparently, I had given into sex without honesty, and therefore confused him on whether or not our marriage was recovering.

Gee, that means I can be the one to GIVE, but that's precisely where his generosity stops. No need for honesty if he's getting sex, right?

Really, the only thing different in our relationship since my last post (couple months ago) is that I have more diamonds (another emergency peace offering), had another daylong conversation in the same parking lot/restaurant and have evidence (snooping) that he hasn't been fully transparent with me during recovery.

Without this evidence, I would have to say that I would be a BLIND FOOL today.

In my opinion, he's a master GasLighter and really tries to make me feel like I am to blame for not believing or trusting him.

I can't thank the Lord enough for delivering me, by giving me the evidence I have. I can freely live my life without feeling guilty of not trusting him because I have evidence that he is untrustworthy.

Get this:

1. He keeps saying "you have to tell me" (wow, what a demand) about when he hurts me with his gawking (which now includes touching himself) or he won't know what to improve on, poor helpless, innocent him.

2. Or, he says things like "until you believe me" (another guilt trip), we can't move forward in our marriage recovery.

Nonsense!

1. I know that to inform him about his latest gawking only gives him a chance to admit to what he has been CAUGHT doing. And that he'll never admit to anything he isn't caught at. What kind of openness and honesty is that?

2. To explain the details of his lack of transparency, especially when I am out of town, would be to reveal my sources. No way. The evidence keeps me sane. Why can't HE tell ME what he's doing, where he's at?

You know, I am so thankful to learn from good people on this forum.

Really, I am no longer being played for a fool. The emotional needs that I meet for my husband are consciously and generously given to help build a better relationship during this so-called recovery.

This is my effort at making things work out.

Sometimes I feel like it's a WASTE of my time to try and work things out with him, so I wonder if he should just figure it out for himself!

Okay, so now I go out on LOUD MUSIC excursions in the car, releasing some pressure-cooked emotions (I don't do pushups, but really admire men who do!).

Does anyone here DANCE in the car while driving? I do. It's SO FUN, especially at high speeds. I do wear a seatbelt and keep one hand on the steering wheel.

It makes me smile just thinking about it…

Hey, recently I have FELT (emphasis added, only a feeling) like calling up the handsome, intelligent, adulterous jerk who tried to hit on me some summers ago and going out to have a good time with him for some feelings of appreciation! Wow, what a good time we would have! Yah!

But I know better. So here I am STUCK in a lunatic marriage (blunt expression for the moment) with a man who can't go beyond his SELFISHNESS and IMMATURITY to work on our marriage.

Well, my husband is in trouble. He appears to be testing me.

Do you know what he said last night? He said that now he would "take it seriously". You mean he hasn't been taking our marital problems seriously since last summer when this all started?

Ouch, I'm getting a headache…

Oh, and I should add...

The time we spend together in a day (Undivided Attention) is about 10 minutes at bedtime (on a non-meeting day), and then as soon as he falls asleep and starts snoring in my ear, I say good-night and he turns over.

This lack of time spent together is the result of me not insisting that we spend more time together. Why beat on a closed door?

What about POJA (Policy of Joint Agreement)? Are you kidding? Passive/Aggressive Sex Addicts don't POJA. That's a given.

To prove that...

He said he didn't want to continue with marriage counseling.

I asked him why, but he gave me no reason.

I wasn't included in his decision either.

Where are we heading?

He said that he read the books (MB course). But I know that he only skimmed through some very important chapters.

If he would have read them seriously he would know that we can't make it on:

No time (UT)
No agreements (POJA)
No counseling
No top Emotional Needs met (SF, O&H)

I've really felt tipped off balance over this last weekend.

I keep editing my last posts, unable to articulate all of my feelings, trying to sort out my emotions and what has happened recently.

There is something my husband said that bothers me.

He said that with all that I've shared with him about my feelings, why would I want to be with him?

In some ways, I think this is the same mentality he used months ago when he volunteered to be separated (foolish move if you want to have a better marriage, not to mention PAIN for the children).

I assume he wants me to be the BAD GUY and REMOVE him from my life.

But do you know what really hurts?

Is that he has rejected my love during so much of our marriage and blames me for not loving him, but all the while it's HIS OWN REJECTION of my love that ruins us.

That's what really hurts.

He doesn't seem to have any idea how his "you did this" and "you can't that" and "you don't think" and "you won't this" and "you don't that" and "it's hard for you" builds so many barriers IN HIS OWN MIND that we couldn't possibly have a relationship anyway.

I believe that I have jumped over EVERY hurdle of pessimism he has thrown my way, and yet we still can't work it out intimately.

I really think the problem is HIM.

And I don't know how to help him. I feel completely helpless now. I feel like there is NOTHING I can do.

It's all up to him.

I see the future as a complete guilt trip on me though, especially if I stand firm in "no sex without honesty" regarding our top Emotional Needs.

Speaking of that, I am embarrassed that he didn't take our recovery seriously so far, "sweeping things under the rug" (as he put it) and USED me while I was being generous with sex to help him feel comfortable with me and grow together intimately.

I realize that 2 months is not much time. But when does the REAL recovery begin?

What's that saying? Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.

He has NO IDEA what it's going to be like to go 8,395 days (23 more years of marriage) without sex with his wife and still claim marriage.

I've always been merciful. But his time of mercy is over.

I feel like I'm losing my love for him. I have to protect that in some way. I have to get off this rollercoaster of lies, deceit, lip service, avoidance and "looking back".

It's going to take superhuman strength for me to withstand the blame for the next nine years while our youngest child grows up.

After that, I plan to spend my time in other ways.

This marriage has been so unfair.

He's right. I deserve better.

Obs, I think I've posted to you before on this - your husband is a textbook case of a passive/aggressive controller who has got you over a barrel and likes it that way. Please take it from me - MB principles do not work with P/As any more than they work with alcoholics or meth heads. That's why nothing you've tried has helped, even though you've been doing everything right.

You would have to approach this as a P/A problem and cure that nasty disease *first* before anything at MB can help - but I can hear the pain and despair and helplessness in your posts and it's clear that he has done a real number on you. I don't know if it'll be worth it to you to take on a project like this.

Never forget that he likes it this way and is most comfortable when you are powerless and suffering. That's because he's reassured that he's in total control and you have none.

I can only tell you to read the *entire* P/A thread at the link below. Many of us are struggling daily with this one, but at least you will understand why your marriage is the way it is and you can rest assured that it is not your fault.
Mulan

Mulan,

Thanks. Your compassionate post brought tears to my eyes (and put a lump in my throat).


I hear you. And I have finally resigned to the truth of this dilemma.


I agree. He became the nastiest when I brought up this behavior. I had felt like it was my place to work on our marriage, but when it comes to his own (P/A) behavior, I think he should take care of it.


I will, for my own good, and survival.


I don't know if I would be a sane person today had I not found this website and had such great people to learn from.

Okay, so I realize that I deserve better. And act accordingly.

Then he climbs into bed and puts his arms around me. Then he falls asleep.

I look over and realize how much he depends on me. I could never lose my love for him while in his arms.

Then I wake him up by saying good-night and he kisses me, passionately.

I only respond with kisses good-night. And he turns over.

This should be a song...

Guess what my husband did today?

He scheduled a daylong trip with a couple of his secretaries for the next time that I'm out of town.

How convenient.

He thought by taking 2 secretaries, I would feel more comfortable than if he were to take 1 secretary.

Well, I don't like his timing at all. And we never agreed on anything.

So I reminded him about his secretive behavior with Blondie, and how after he knew how I felt about it, he still went in for some more secretive behavior with one of the secretaries he was planning to take along. I said I don't trust him with ANY secretary.

And I said that since I have no desire to impose agreements on him, he can do what he wants!

He came to a screeching halt, canceled the secretaries and will go by himself (which isn't a whole lot better) while I'm in town.

I'm still laughing...

Observing -

Have you ever asked your husband if he'll go to marriage counseling with you? You seem to be at a bit of a standstill right now. I don't know how much more of your energy is worth this when you're not getting anything in return. You deserve better.

It's amazing how similar these people are. My H also told me that he would stop going out with only one woman when they are having their "rewards and celebrations and extensions of the workday" at work.

(See, there's no such thing as a social occasions in a corporate workplace. It's all "work", even if they're going to a Broadway show together, and that's how they get around the "socializing at work" question - they just refuse to call it socializing and so are free to do absolutely anything they want.)

So anyway, I waited, and sure enough it happened just like I expected - a couple of months ago he went out drinking in a fancy sake bar with TWO women, not just one, and happily called me up half-sloshed at 11:30 at night to tell me about it.

These P/As are just too damn smart for the rest of us.


You have learned a valuable lesson here - "opening the cage door" DOES seem to be very effective with P/As. Never forget that their goal is to do what they want AND be YOUR victim at the same time. If you stop caring about what they do, they can no longer be your victim and the payoff for them is not nearly as great.

Of course, if you stop caring about what someone does you might as well divorce them and go to the movies, but you'll never get a P/A to see that connection.

So: The two things I personally have found that might help a P/A get a clue:

1) Call them on their behaviour every time, and then WALK AWAY. Do not EVER wait for them to agree with you, validate you or empathize with you.

2) Open the cage door. When they can't be your victim because you just don't care anymore (or can at least behave as if you don't), their payoff and incentive goes way, way down.

Good luck. It's a horrible road that none of us asked for. No one would blame you for taking a hard left turn and looking for a decent well-maintained highway instead.
Mulan