Techie,
When I have the time I need to read your thread. It's been hard to get much computer time recently.

I have had biblical grounds for divorce since the first year of our M, a M that has slowly unraveled over the last 9 years.

I do not wish my H any harm. I will be very hurt when I know that he has moved on to someone else. I started to say that I will be hurt when I see him w/someone but, been there/done that, so maybe the shock and pain will actually be less post divorce.

I'm not in favor of divorce and I've done a lot of praying, sole searching, questioning, asking for advice, asking for signs. I've got stacks of books that I've read. I've been to IC and MC (3 times; cancelled #4 when I found out he was still seeing OW).

I just don't see a way of repair the huge amount of damage that we've done to our M. It really hurts when I think of him not being in my life but, him being in my life hurts, too. I'm just really sad and tired and lonely and miserable right now. I don't have a life where I come and go as I please. Not to see others. Not on my radar at this point. But, to be free to make plans and not be afraid to tell him or have to justify what I'm doing to him.

I'm rambling. I'm just tired and need a resolution.

You dont have to tell him, or justify to him, now. Just let go of that. Give yourself permission to not talk to him any more. plan B.

It sounds like you're looking for a divorce to change your feelings, rather than getting a divorce, BECAUSE your feelings have changed. May I suggest that is a little backwards.

Someone has in their sig, something like, "when your heart and mind are in sync, then it is time".
yours arent yet. it sounds like one of them is ready for divorce, but one of them isnt yet.

When both of them agree, then it might be a better time for you. Then you will have no regrets about filing.

The one looking for divorce, just wants the pain to stop. That's very understandable.
A proper plan B, will take away the pain that you have described as the current pain in your life.



Peace be with you.

You KNOW how lonely it is to live as a 3rd wheel to a man and his addictions. Remember this: You'll never have a chance NOT to be lonely till you get rid of this man. He's not good for you or your daughter. He's not interested in changing his ways, he only wants you back if he can continue his way of life. Please protect yourself and your D - Dru

Today in church, one of the readings was Mark, chapter 10 (verses 20-ish?)

According to Jesus, "He [or she] who divorces, [..] and marries again[..] commits adultery".

This would appear to be a clear statement that covers divorcing even for biblically based reasons.

So, "divorce him so you can get married again and not be lonely", would directly go against the teachings of Christ.

A warning to all those who profess to be "Christians": live up to your name, and follow the words of Christ.

Techie, one scripture out of context is a pretext and so is isolating one scripture from the rest of the word of God. The bible clearly does not teach what you are suggesting.

Life, I have taken a long break from this board but remember some of your earlier posts. I also remember how similar I felt our situations were. I am now at the same crossroad although not as close to finality as you are.

We will never be treated well until we feel and believe we deserve to be treated well. We must stop listening to the voice in our heads that tells us we are unworthy. This voice must be replaced with our own confirming voice citing our worthiness. You know you are a good person, you know you try your best to continue in that vein in all your roles(Friend, mother etc). Acknowledge your worthiness and allow yourself the chance to grow without this poison vine pulling back into the ground.

I still oscilate between staying and going even when I'm obviously moving more in one direction than the other. This is just that "wishful thinking" knome that continues to pop into my head.

I too continually ask God for reassurances or signs. I pray to a friend that passed away on a daily basis and then laugh at myself, as I know she would have, because the signs have been soo obvious.

At some point we have to have the courage to say enough is enough and try to continue with a life that we can improve on a daily basis. We can't win the race if we don't even step off the starting block.

I wish you peaceful days and restful nights knowing you are doing the right thing for you and your daughter.

Uh, no, it very clearly DOES.
It's not popular. It's not "politically correct". it's not particularly comforting. But it's what it says.

I'm sure you've been taught "divorce and remarriage is ok if you have biblical cause", in your church. but that doesnt mean that's what the bible says.

If you disagree with me, then prove it, by quoting me any place in the bible, where Jesus says he is in favour of divorce. Or remarriage after divorce. Come on, just one. that's all it takes.

otherwise, your "one scripture out of context" claim is equivalent to just saying, "that's one scripture I dont like, so I'm going to ignore it".

you want context? ok, quote the entire chapter that it is in. Cant claim it is "out of context" then.
now show me anywhere in the chapter, that shows that remarriage after divorce is ok, according to Jesus Christ.

All the biblical context in the world is not going to change the facts of what He said.

You can accept it. Or you can reject it, and not follow His teaching. But dont try to claim "well he said that, but thats not what he 'really meant'". Because whenever people start saying that about what Jesus said, what they usually mean, is "I dont want to accept that, so I'm going to pretend he meant something else"

Jesus doesn't say he is in FAVOUR of divorce anywhere and God clearly HATES divorce. But it is PERMITTED in cases of marital unfaithfulness.

interesting.

I quoted from Mark chapter 10:11, which says,

"Whoever divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery against her. And if she divorces her husband and marries another, she commits adultery.

Whereas your quote is from "MaTthew 5".

your quote seems to specifically address the "it is lawful to divorce in case of marital unfaithfulness". however, it is ambigious whether the "anyone who marries the divorced woman commits adultery" is in context of the "marital unfaithfulness" or not.

unfortunately for the remarrying camp, there are at least two indicators that it is related to ANY remarrying == adultery.

First of all, a different translation of your passage, matthew 5:32, goes,

"But I say to you that everyone who divorces his wife, except for immorality, makes her commit adultery, and whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery."

The use of "a" in this reading, confers the meaning of "ANY divorced woman".

The second piece of clarifying evidence against the ambiguity in Matthew 5, is the one I originally quoted from mark 10.

When examining scripture, the usual standard is, "take the clear, and apply it to the unclear".

The passage in Matthew (your translation, anyway) is ambiguous. The passage in Mark, is non-ambiguous. Applying the "clear" to the "unclear", results in the passage in Matthew being dis-ambiguated as "divorce, given grounds, is lawful, but remarrying a divorcee is not"

The Apostle Paul also had interesting teaching on divorce and remarriage Techie. This is not an issue I have a vested interest in anyway as I am still married to my first wife. You may yet have an opportunity to see if you can live up to the standard you are espousing here should your marriage fail.

I'm going to put you on ignore Techie because I frankly find you irritating and don't think I have anything to offer you. Good luck. You'll be needing it.

well, I'm sorry to hear that. I'm more interested in the truth, and understanding, then "me being right". If someone has a passage in the bible to show me, that indicates that I am wrong in my interpretation of it, I would like to hear it.

It doesnt look like Matthew 5:31 is such a passage, though.

WEll there's..

Matthew 19:9
1 Corinthians 7, 27-28

To name a couple.

I think the real issue has to be looked at in context.

At the time people were in the habit of getting divorced in order to marry their lover much as they are today.

God knew their hearts...he knew that they were using the law to legitimize their affair. The message is [imo] that a piece of paper does not make an adultery into something else...not a divorce decree ..not a marriage certificate. If you divorced your spouse to marry your lover God knows it. he was calling their adultery what it was...not condemning innocent people to a life of celibacy and isolation.

Thank you for replying, Noodle,

looking up the verses you mentioned...

"Matthew 19:9"

mentions divorce, but not remarrying

"1 Corinthians 7, 27-28"

That's an intersting one. There are a few problems with it, though. It's a somewhat non-focused set of verses, starting at verse 25, and Paul gives the disclaimer of,
"I have no command from the Lord, but I give my opinion". That would seem to indicate that the entire "paragraph" is Paul's opinion, not Divine revelation.

It also is ambiguous. It mixes multiple situations in a single "paragraph. Each sentence is almost a different context.

This one has lots of "context" to it, all firmly to do with marriage, in contrast to the verse in Mark, which has almost no related context around it.

Looking further at Corinthians 1, chapter 7, the netbible translation gives for those verses 27-28,

"[...]The one released from a wife should not seek marriage. But if you marry, you have not sinned. "

If we look at those verses even OUT of context, there is something important to note.
The first sentence uses the grammar, "the one ...", but the next sentence uses a completely different grammatical context, "if you ...".
This change of grammar seems to indicate that the pronoun is referrring to a different entity than the prior verse.
But what entity or proposal could it be referring to?

Now lets "zoom out" and consider the verses surrounding it.
27-28 are encapsulated in the following verses;


"Because of the impending crisis I think it best for you to remain as you are." [... then the above verses, among others, THEN ...]
"But those who marry will face difficult circumstances,"

So the second sentence, verse 28, would seem to be more related to the question of, "should we marry at ALL?", due to the "impending crisis".


So this text also, does not seem to state, "yes, it is good in God's eyes to remarry after being divorced"



I dont see this as "God condemming". I see this, as having to suffer the sins of others, committed against us.
It is a horrible, horrible thing, when a person chooses to violate their marriage vows and betray their spouse. But it is of them, not of God.

I think what you're saying is, "it's not 'fair' that a person have to suffer without a real spouse, until their unfaithful spouse dies.". And I certainly agree with that: it isnt "fair". But God doesnt call Christians to be "fair". He calls us to be faithful, and loving, and patient, in the face of insult, and injury, and persecution. Even until death. whether that be a short time, or a long time, in coming. May He give us all His grace to persevere, should we need to.

I think a fundamental question here is, "Why does God permit divorce at all?"

My reading of the bible so far, leads me to believe that He allows it, to free the faithful spouse from the responsabilities of sharing their body, and labours, with the unfaithful, cheating spouse.
A Divinely tolerated "plan B", if you will.

I do not see that He allows it for purposes of remarrying, however. I think remarrying is still intended to only be "after death of one spouse".

Techie,

If the letter of the law is strictly upheld the BS is completely free to remarry as adultery is a capital offense.[Leviticus 20:10]

I used those two scriptures to illustrate that in cases of adultery divorce is permitted and that people who were divorced DID remarry and those marriages were not considered adulterous even by the apostles.

yes, the "capital offense" part, meshes nicely with the "after the death of one spouse, THEN you can remarry" reading <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

It's an oddity Techie.

The ONLY allowance for divorce just happens to be a capital offense.

Which SHOULD render divorce unnecessary.

Go figure.

All,
I just came back late last night from a well-deserved long weekend away; just my daughter and I. I was surprised to see the theological debate on divorce. For what it's worth here's my two cents worth.

I don't advocate divorce as it has evolved in the US. I never in my wildest dreams thought that I would end up divorced and now I"m on the verge of my second. My first M was sheer stupidity on my part and it ended after my XH decided that drugs and partying were more important than his wife and child. Probably had an A; no proof but heard rumors long after the D and he moved away.

I suppose there are many opinions of what "justifies" a D. Biblically, I do believe that the Bible says that marital unfaithfulness is justification. I also have heard Dr. Laura say that the 3 reasons for D are the three As - addiction, abuse and adultery.

My current H had an A in our first year of marriage and I stayed and did everything I could to keep the M together. He walked all over me and I did my best to keep my mouth shut and put myself and my daughter last over him and his kids.

He has brow beat me over my past. He has used things about my past that I innocently told him before I figured out what a jerk he was (since then I kept my mouth shut) to emotionally and verbally beat me up time and time again. He has threatened to "tell all" about my past.

He has told me in no uncertain terms that my daughter aad I would pay for the things he thinks I did wrong where his kids are concerned. He has told a family member that if I think he is going to put up with how I treat my D, I'm full of sh*t.

Even though he says he wants us to work things out and get back together, he continues to talk to 2nd XW and the OW. I talked to him very little over the 4 days I was gone. What a relief. A nice break from the bickering and pushing about the R. He called several times and TMd several times to say how much he loved and missed me. On Sunday, he called me crying and saying he loved me so much and missed me and was worried about our safety. Starting making a few comments about his life not worth living w/o us. He told me that he had spent the day w/his son helping him make cabinets. Hecalled his cousin and told him that he was sorry for anything he had ever done to him. The cousin called me and asked if I had talked to him. I told him he had called me crying. He was worried and went to the house. H met him at the door; said he acted strange like maybe he had someone in the house but no evidence of that; no car, etc. Cousin then called H's son and son said he was fine all day long. Then cousin told me that they were at the OWs dad's house doing the woodworking!!! I have no doubt that OW was there.

H still hasn't told me that he was there on Sunday. He tells me that I have nothing to worry about b/c their physical relationship ended months ago. But, I can't go to church b/c OM may be there but I have nothing to do w/him.

The funny part is that every time I got a call or TM or VM from him while I was gone it was how much he loved me and wanted our M to work. But, starting Sunday evening and on MOnday he started saying that we need to get it over with if my decision was still D b/c I couldn't get over his latest A.

I'm rambling again.

I don't advocate D but I'm not sure what I'm supposed to do in this case. He has had multiple As and I believe w/everything in me that he will continue to cheat. My life will continue to be one of always worrying about the cell phone or who that was that hung up when I answered the phone. We own a company that requires my H to go to people's homes and do estimates. That's how he met the OW and the other 3 he has been involved with.

I believe that when Jesus died for my sins He died for all my sins, past, present and future. If I sin by divorce and remarriage (there are no prospects on the horizon) His blood has covered that. I am not saying that I have free license to commit whatever sins I want to commit b/c they have already been forgiven. I am saying that I believe that God hates D but give me the ability to D for adultery if I make that choice.

In my H I get verbal, emotional and physical abuse plus adultery plus the problem with the kids.

Techie - I respect the fact that you are incredibly pro-marriage. I am too but I believe we all reach our breaking point. I don't advocate D as a means to get out of a R that isn't going the way we want it to but, I have to think of my D and what she is being taught. The R she has w/my H will shape her future Rs if I'm not careful and if I don't do some damage control. She has seen and heard way too much.

Advice appreciated.

AMEN, L2S!! You said it the best way it could have been said, as far as your reasoning for divorce.

You don't have to explain or justify to anyone the reasons for your choices. You have Biblical grounds, not to mention legal, emotional and physical grounds. You have every reason in the world for your choice. Biggest reason of all, being your daughter.

I think you are on the right track, L2S! And I'm behind you ALL the way!

I'm glad you had a nice weekend with your daughter. And soon, you will have a lifetime of them!

Hang in there and keep at this! You're doing awesome!

(((L2S)))

Jen

Hey Jen!
I'm continuing to analyze my emotions and my lack of determination to take the final step toward D.

I really think it's just that it finally will bring to an end what I thought was a fairytale R. But, being truly honest w/myself, it wasn't a fairytale, more a nightmare. Even from the beginning there were problems. I had to hide my past in order to stay in his life. So wrong for me to do that and to have to do that. I should be able to be who I am and have total freedom to share my life w/someone. Never was the case.

I know that he was at OW's parents' home on Sunday. I believe OW was there too.

Pray for me to take the next step. I know that's what I need to do.