Great reply to a post that was in no way an attack on her... instead it was a defense FROM an attack BY her...

and no, you don't KNOW me. I am probably older than you and her both. I have expierences that you can not even fathom.

Please do not persieve that I attacked her, and do not come in defense of a person that was not attcked and probably doesn't want your defense anyway...

When I refer to the same forum, I did not say that this FORUM was atypical, but the people on it... People on ALL forums judge others by a few words that are posted her and there... That is not knowing an individual. That is not even a glimpse into a hunderedth of a person... I would never make the mistake of judgeing you based on what you posted here.

You make the point that this forum is not like any other, yet in the blink of an eye, you are ready to judge me, condem me, and persicute me based on some persieved insult that doesn't exist. I do not fight on the internet... no one ever wins.

Sorry that you feel so threatened and insulted for your friend on a forum that is about embracing and helping people... Way to be a shinning representitive!

BTW, can anyone point to a dang directory of all these terms... I am just not getting them all.

Dang it - Jen beat me to it. LOL!!!!!!

You know what Vash - the "typical" forum people here, MANY of then in this thread I regard as very close friends. They are so far from "typical forum people" you wouldn't believe it. Saved me and my marriage.

If Flirting is so harmless, as you both seem to think it is, why did your wife end up in BED?

Flirting is communication? Yep - sure is. Just be REAL careful about what it communicates.

How's flirting working out for you both?

In the Just Found our forum there is a post pinned at the top with all the acronyms in it.

It's interesting you compare yourself to other posters (and make assumptions and judgements about them) on the basis of a few words they write as well no?

Again I am attacked... What a bunch of hypocrits!!!

You talk about help, and you attack me and poor salt into a wound that obviously has not been even remotely healed.

You sir, are a ******! I am glad that your little community has not leaked out to the rest of the forums because if I wanted to be beat down regaurding this situation, I would talk to my family about it....

Thanks, but no thanks for the hypocracy!

Older than me? No one's older than me.

No you don't know us. He came to this site on my invatation because earlier today I was told it was a good idea. In the last 3 hours I have been called a ba parent and that I have a drinking problem. My H has been told that he is a bad parent and that he should have stopped the affair before it started.

If you read all of it you'd see that none of that is the case. I spent more time today trying to convince someone that I didn't have adrinking problem than I did on my marriage. We are very good parents so I will not even go there.

I do thank you all for replying. I like the interaction. It helps me. It's just not for him. He is a great man and father.

You think that was an attack? WOW

Folks,

I don't know what has gotten this thread into such a mess. But, why not back off and get down to business.

MrsVash, if drinking is NOT the problem, what did you tell yourself to give yourself permission to violate your marriage vows? How did you arrive at a point where you did not respect your H?

These are the type of questions YOU need to be addressing. It may be part alcohol, but alcohol does NOT make one an adulteress. Something else is going in within you and you need to figure out what it is or your H is never going to feel safe.

Please think about this.

God Bless,

JL

JL - You don't know? I'll bet you do just as I do but are trying to play "peacemaker." "Peacemaker" is a good role, by the way.

In a nutshell, here's the reason. Mrs. Vash comes on ostensibly seeking "help" to recover her marriage after her CHOICE. The same "choice" that every Wayward Spouse has made. To stick a knife into the guts of the one they "love" (probably because they have no real concept of what LOVE really is and substitute self-interested desire and wants for love, i.e., "what's in it for ME?"). This attitude, by the way, is the same attitude that is contained in their belief that "flirting" is "harmless." So is playing with matches, until a fire gets started.

Then she immediately goes on the defensive and disagrees with just about everything anyone has to say.

Then along comes Mr. Vash. HE is the Betrayed Spouse, and all of us who have been Betrayed KNOW the emotional turmoil running around in his head, especially since he already had one wife screwing around on him.

He wants to have BOTH his anger and distrust and his wife, so be begins to rationalize with nonsensical statements like "sex is sex in the world." It IS for animals, it is NOT for humans. That attitude is simply a form of "justifcation" to behave selfishly, not LOVE.

We all, or at least most of us who have been Betrayed, struggle with the FACT of the betrayal and the desire to "defend" the indefensible CHOICE of our spouse because WE chose them to marry in the first place.

His emotions, not his logic, are "running the show" right now.

Until both of them are willing to accept that "doing it their" way has NOT worked, not in his previous marriage not in his current marriage, there will be no CHANGE in behaviors that contribute to the environment and the very great likelihood that there will be a "repeat" of some rationalization and justification for adultery in the future, by either one of them.

ANGER is what is driving Mr. Vash right now. Guilt is what is what is driving Mrs. Vash right now. You and I both now that little "constructive" can be offered, much less accepted, when the "Taker" is in control.

So if they truly want help, we'll see that. If they continue to think that they "don't need anyone else," there will be nothing we can do to help them anyway.

So is the point that you both want to fix the marriage but not actually change anything?

If you do something while drunk that you wouldn't normally do, the way to prevent it is to never drink again. Why is that hard to accept?

But if you'd rather just focus on the forum of people who are trying to help you and make us a common enemy, I guess that's a pretty effective way of avoiding dealing with things.

Methinks there is a whole lot of avoidance.......and DENIAL going on here. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

wasvashesgirl2 and vash,

I am terribly sorry this has gotten so off track here for the two of you. I understand your hesitance ... which unfortunately appears to been validated by the side track ... it is however a rarer exception......... althuogh I don't post often I read alot ..........

Thank you Just Learning for recognizing how off track this tread has gotten. Two thinkgs I want to point out to all:

1. I hope that all of us realize that everything here is written. It is easy to misinterpret communication when it is face to face and even easier to misinterpret in the absence of face to face contact. It is in fact one of the main problems that many of us experience in marriage is misinterpretation of our spouses communication. I hope everyone here will take that to heart and recognize that all of us are subject to misinterpreting one another and hold ourselves accountable for clarifying things before we jump the gun.

2. Might want to do some research on alcoholism before jumping the gun on someone. I unfortunately know the subject all too well. My family tree is laden with it. Fortunately the buck stopped with my mother. There is a difference between an alcoholic and someone who abuses alcohol. The difference is in the use of it for coping and whether not the alcohol has control.

3. When any of us get defensive about something that is said I think it is important for us to ask ourselves the question "Am I getting defensive because they are on target?" or "Am I getting defensive because they are off target and I do not feel they are hearing me?" This is good practice in our marriages and good practice here.

wasvashesgirl2 and vash

As far as your original response. I will have to go back to what I think 2LLP said. Look at your lifestyle. Something made you vulnerable. There is no way around this, only through it. It is tough but we can survive. Just because a spouse does it once does not mean they will do it again. The tough questions have to be asked. What made the marriage vulnerable to the affair? What changes do we need to make in our lifestyle? Our marriage? Ourselves? To protect one another, you marriage, your children, your family, your home.

This can happen to anyone. People who have relatively good marriages to marriages that are totally on the rocks. No one knows whether or not the A would have continued if vash had not caught you. You simply have to deal with it as it has been laid out.

Take whatever lesson this horrible experience has to offer and learn from it. If you think your marriage was good before, then take this as an opportunity to make it even better (and protect your marriage from future affairs to the extent humanly possible).

There are a mass of resources out there. Starting with this site and Dr. Harley's material. The information and material he offers, including his books, are great for any couple who wants to build a more satisfying relationship. I think they are especially useful for those of us who have been devestated by a spouses affair, simply because they offer a structured method for working through something during a time when it is so hard focus on anything.

Some other really good resources you should check out are:

beyondaffairs.com
dearpeggy.com

I've read most of Dr. Harley's material, as well as most of the recommended reading on the two noted above. In each one I take what is useful from each. No one source has all the answers. That I will stand by. beyondaffairs is Anne Brechts website she wrote a wonderful book called my husband's affair. It is an incredible story of a marriage that was pretty decent, in which neither would have expected it to happen, and an incrediable story of a couples and a families recovery.

I wish you the very best in your recovery. Whatever the outcome, actively working on your healing and recovery are vitally important to your future. To the extent that you do so is the extent to which it will either have a positive or negative impact on your children.

BA, no one here has called vw an "alcoholic" and this thread only went off track when she was told some unpleasant truths she did not want to hear. That is all too common with folks who are in denial. She clearly has a problem with alcohol, which she admits, that she does not want to address.

For the record, I am a recovering alcoholic with 21 years of sobriety, so I am all too familiar with the warning signs. I am a sponsor in AA and was a circuit speaker for years so I do know a little about it.

But it matters not at all is she is or isn't an alcholic, what matters is that she CHANGES HER ENVIRONMENT. She has admitted that she has a serious problem with alcohol in that this is WHY the affair happened.

Common sense would dictate that she REMOVE herself from a drinking environment since she, admittedly, CANNOT handle her alcohol. A person who cannot handle alcohol should not be serving it for a living. Is that really such a hard concept to understand?

I think there are other reasons that the affair occurred, but in order to protect the marriage from future affairs, then changes have to be made. And one of those changes, OBVIOUSLY, should be her work environment.

Vash, you can think or say anything you want about me. I don't care. But I do care enough about marriages and children to say again it is immature to flirt. It is not a communication tool, it is a lack of boundaries. No I don't pretend to "know" you or your wife, but I can tell you after being on this site and dealing with this crap for as long as I have that I have learned a lot about personal and marital boundaries.

mrs vash

having been in your shoes a far as adultery goes AND using alcohol to allow me to act on my feelings, I found the important thing was to delve deep down to WHY?
there IS a reason even if you have not yet admitted it to yourself. Its probably something that comes around in your thoughts and you quickly shove it down again.
Whatever allowed you to CHOOSE sex with someone else, that even allowed you to become involved with someone other than your husband, well you have to dig it out like a cancer before you can begin to really heal, before you can face your H and truly say NEVER EVER again.
Flirting must be involved somehow, you even have said so explaining the back ground of contact with the OM. Its something YOU have to dig into, people here can only bring these things from your posts to your attention and try to help you. But you will need to do the work.

Will your husband heal? depends ... most can heal if given the environment to heal. Healing so often is also a choice. Part of it means NO CONTACT ever with that OM. If he ever contacts you, runs into you, even with a 100 friends around you leave and let your H know right away.
It means you have to accept he will not trust you for some time. no way around it you stuffed up big time. You will have go to some length to demonstrate, not tell or talk about it, that you may be trusted from small things to big things, from emotional issues to day to day issues. THIS WILL TAKE TIME, months, maybe a year or so even. Your behaviour has to be consistent.
As time goes on you may even think its unfair. However THAT’S part of the price that is paid to rebuild the trust
Mrs vash MB can work, but its not easy, its not avoidance and requires commitment. In fact its bloody hard. But so it should be. What we did was even harder on our spouses.
One other thing is that your old Marriage is gone, can’t get it back, its gone. Both of you will have to rebuild from the ground up in many ways.
You probably like I and many others here wont like what you are advised. Unfortunately so often its absolutely right, not easy, not palatable, but right. Its come from a lot of bitter experience from some good people who quiet frankly wont let you get away with much avoidance or wishy washy excuses on this forum. Feeling indignant at some question sent your way is not unusual, its also not just done at random its done to make your THINK about your position and feelings, to question them.
I would also advise you to seek actual counseling from the Harleys or someone as good, good experienced counseling is worth its weight in gold and from all the talk back here its very very good and they actually use methods which from practical experience actually work, Sometimes it sounds counter productive but it still works. So pls consider professional advice as well.
You can build a new relationship with your husband but be prepared to work outside your comfort zone in some areas.
Yes if you wondered we are well into recovery but I am never taking that for granted.

BTW, when I said this site saved my life, I meant it. I was on the verge of suicide. Don't tell ME what I feel. Only I know what I feel and I would never disrespect someone by saying their feelings are not real. You have no idea what kind of pain comes with your husband having a child with another woman outside your marriage. Especially when you have longed for another child after your youngest became ill and severely disabled. How DARE you discount MY feelings.

bwwwwwwwwaaaaaaaaahaaaaaaaa that is too funny, Jen. Well maybe 2long or JL are. BTW, you have no idea but one of the wisest people I know on this board is only 28. She has more life experience and wisdom under her belt than anyone else I know (well except for maybe JL) Age has nothing to do with maturity, Vash. My FIL is the most immature 70 year old man I have ever known.

Well this has been an interesting thread.

I will part company with many who point to alcohol as a contributing problem. The simple fact that Vash and wasvashesgirl2 state that alcohol is not an issue in their life means that, “It is NOT an issue.” Criticizing their drinking habits by projecting your habits on to them contributes nothing to their benefit. Some folks can drink and some can’t. These two are not asking for drug counseling and I seriously doubt that they need any based on the little information so far gleaned.

There is, however, something very valuable here for Vash and wasvashesgril2. That is, the invaluable lessons learned by the many who have had to suffer through the hurt of infidelity and more important, the way to repairing and building a new and better relationship. Kids, it is the “real deal”.

My simple advice to both of you; before you seek advice from these forums read all of the “infidelity” information that Harley has made available on this website. It is really great stuff and it will help you discern which posts might be more helpful then others. With that background in your hip pocket I will suggest that your views on what a healthy relationship is, might change a bit.

I will leave you with this thought; your future together will come down to what you BOTH want. If you both want it, then it will be yours. It takes a long, long time to recover from this kind of betrayal and how you utilize the tools here will determine how loving and rewarding your recovery looks like in the end. Not every couple is suited for the journey.

Keep your chins up,

Mr. G

MrG, no one is "projecting" their drinking habits onto this woman. We are just going by what she said. She is the one who CLAIMS to have done this only because she was under the influence and has "sworn off" alcohol. She said she would have never done it while sober. So please take the time to read the thread before you jump to hasty, illformed conclusions because you do these folks a disservice.

And I don't appreciate the catty comment that I am "projecting" when the facts clearly support what I have suggested.

Common sense dictates that if you have a problem with alcohol you should remove yourself from any such environment. I can't imagine why that is so hard for some here to comprehend.

Well I think that some of you are correct and some not. I value all the addvise given to me. Like with everything in life I will use some and not others.

I did not say I was attacked that was Vash. We are seperate people. I never blamed my affair on drinking. Never. I don't know what the reason I had the affair is. I understand that I have to look into myself and figure out why I went outside my marriage. I am willing to do the work. Not just for my H but for myself. This experience has made me feel like crap. Not because I got caught but because I hurt the person I love most in this world.

As to the whole drinking issue I am done. Done defending myself and done drinking. I will not quit my job. There is no prpblem there for me. I understand the fact that drinking is not why I had the affair. I never tried to put it off on to drinking. I was telling my story of what happen. Not defending myself. There is no defence.

I did not come to this site to find all the answers. My original question. Which by the was. How do I help my H understand that it wasn't his fault but 100% mine?

In the first few respnses I was told about some books which I will be reading. Then something ugly happened. I'm not sure how it did but it dosen't matter at all.

My kids are safe my H and I are making sure of that. We have a very strong friendship so even if we D we will be friends. i love him enough to let him go. If that is what he wants. He is here trying everyday. This happened 10 days ago and is still very fresh.

Again ladies and gentalmen thank you for all your words of wisdom.
Jeesica