[color:"purple"] [/color] Hello, my name is Jessica. I never thought I would say this but I am an audltress. I cheated on my husband. I still can't believe it. I have no excuss. I just wish it was bad dream.

We have two beautiful boys and in one night I could have ruined there lives. How selfish is that.

I want to save my marriage more than anything but I also want to protect myself. I guess I should have thought of that before I spread my legs.


I cheated on my husband at a get together with all our friends. With one of our friends. Lots of drinking was involved. God I wish I could blame it all on RUM!!!!! Why when your young and you screw up while drunk it's all okay. Oh I am just rambling. I have been trying to make it right at home all week.

He has asked me questions and I have answered them to the best of my ability. He dosen't want to hear that I was drunk and don't know why I did it. But god help me I was drunk and don't know why I DID IT.

My husband is a good man. We had a pretty normal(yeah I know what it that)relationship. Ups and downs. My big thing to get us threw anything was we have each other. I don't know if there is some deep down reason. I found the other guy apealing in the I want to save him kind of way. We ahd alwas flirted with each other. My husband is a flirt as well. It never bothered either of us. We both new what was what. I thought we where indestruckable. I was so wrong.

I guess I don't really have a question. I was wrong and I want to make it right. I also want to help him understand that it wasn't anything he did or didn't do. It was not his fault it was 100% me.

Help!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Jessica, welcome to this board. You've found the right place for help and advice. Underneath are some threads you will find very helpful - threads that will give you a very good start (just click on the links):

A Recovery Guide for Wayward Wives

Tools for the Wayward Spouse

Post deleted by EMR

Thank you for sharing your story. I honestly don't know what to say. I see the pain in my husbands eyes because he does know. He thinks about nothing eles. It has only been 10 days. So does the old addage "what you don't know can't hurt you" apply. I'm not sure. I think if I would have got away with my affair it would have ruined me. Now I have hurt the one person I love the most. In the end for me it's better that he know. You had a completely different story than mine. We still ended up in the same place so how we got here dosen't really matter. Good luck.

You need to give your H the assurance that this will not happen again.

NEVER drink alcohol again. Start there.

What you don't know will definitely hurt you! If you couldn't read and drank from a bottle of antifreese (very sweet) it would most likely kill you. It is best he know and best that you practice the Policy of Radical Honesty (PORH) and Policy of Joint Agreement (POJA). Keep reading an posting, that antime along wioth your patience and understanding of your Hs issues with your A and how he feels will get you through.

Good Luck!

As RESPECTFUL says:

SWEAR OFF THE ALCOHOL, and that type of social environment. Your H’s mind is mush right now. Emotions will come from every angle and at all different times, for a long time. Dive head first into “Surviving an Affair”, ask him to read it with you, out loud. He needs to see that you mean business. You can tell him you are sorry and that it wont happen again for the rest of your life and it wont do a bit of good if you don’t follow it up with extreme action.

Let him know you are posting here. Ask him to come here; he will see that although an affair is devastating, yours is one many here would take over what they have any day. He basically has the lesser of many evils. Not to minimize your situation, I know this is killing him.

I would much rather my W had a ONS while she was drunk then what she did. Many others here would love to have a WS showing the remorse you are showing. MY W has extreme remorse (which I thank God for) but her A was 9 months of sober sex, lies, warm emotions, hundreds of emails, etc. We are recovering quite nicely from our situation, albiet, we have a long way to go. If your H would come here he would read others posts and see that it could be worse.

He is living in his own he** right now as I’m sure you are too. One thing we all share here, we are all living our own he** regardless of others situations but knowing you/he are not alone is very comforting and healing.

God Bless…

2LLP

Thank you. I did swear of the alcohol. I did tell him that I joined a MB. I should invite him to read my posts? You are so right about telling him I'll never do it again. How is he suppose to beleive anything I say at this point. I am new to this site. Is "Surving an Affair" a book I can pick up at Barnes and Nobles or is something I need to order off theis site?

Thanks again.

Hi this is karebear, 2LLP's W, Surviving an Affair is a book and you should be able to get it at Barnes and Nobles, however we picked ours up at Lemstones Christian Store, I'm pretty sure you could get it at any book store and it is a must when you are dealing with Recovery, it has helped us understand some things we may not have given any thoughts to. Another good one is His Needs Her Needs that we are reading right now and are enjoying the conversation that it sparks between us.
God Bless you and try to bring your H to MB if you can, he really would take notice that he is dealing with one of the lesser evils in your situation and maybe it will help him heal with you.

God Bless and best wishes
KB

Thank you.

Your welcome <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Okay so I did invite him to come to this page. He said no. I told him that he could read anything that I wrote and told him that I was logged on all the time. Am I doing this right? I don't want to push him when he isn't ready.

This is the hardest thing I've ever done. I know that it's worth the effort in the end. Regardless of the out come. I have to try to make things right. I love him and our family.

Ask him if he will come here and talk to other people who have been through the same thing on HIS OWN THREAD. We can help him get through this.

Well here I am. I have read all of my wifes posts and I feel a bit misrepresented. First off I am no stranger to the internet and forums such as this. That being said, I do not dicount forums such as this, but I question some of the validity of the advice given. As an example, my wife has told her side, but the sad fact is that even with my side, the truth falls somewhere in between. Life is always so much more complicated that what you can express in the written word. How can anyone possibly give, let alone take, advice based on such as this?

However, to contradict my initial feelings, I will tell some of my story. I will use this thread as I am not interested in starting my own. I am a victim, moreso my childeren are victims and I think that any pitty ganrnered should be directed toward them, not me.

First off, facts I think important:
This is my second marriage. My first wife also cheated on me... 7 times! I was in the military and I took her back each time. Thats right, I causht her 7 times and took her back each time. I finally couldn't handle it anymore and left.

Jess and I met a couple years after that. One of the first things she said to me, was that she hated liars and cheaters. Considering my past, this was a major attraction for me. We were married 2 years later. In the beggining I was not very honest with her about my first wife and we went through alot becasue of that. We came through stronger for it.

I am a huge flirt. I know here to be as well. Through our relationship, we have pushed each others boundries, but we have done so in respectful ways to gauge what we can, and can't do. I am much more accepting of things than she is.

The "guy" was a friend of mine. He was a guy I bonded with BECAUSE his girlfriend of a couple years cheated on him and I empathyzed with him.

now, My short story:
I actually caught Jessica doing this. I mean, I walked into the room she was in after it was over. I listened outside the door as they talked for about 15 minutes and gave them both just enough room that there would be no wiggleing out. When I walked in, there was also some very damning evidence. While listening outside the door, I heard them kiss.

When I confronted her, she denied everything at first. It took 2 hours for her to admit to "fooling around" and 24 hours of straight deniles before she admited the sex. I told her the whole time that I could even tell her how and where they did it becasue of everything I heard and saw when I walked in.

Yet through all this, I do love her. She has bettered my life 100 fold! I know that I could walk out the door today, and be dating some 20+ year old woman in an instant. I know that I can live without her. I know that I can raise my childeren without her. I know that I would be ok with out her. I just don't want to.

I think this is very much harder than my first wife. However, becasue of my first wife I don't know if I can ever move past this. I think she (Jess) is still being dishonest about things. I am so tired of hearing "I don't know" "I don't remember" "I'm sorry".... All of it is so empty that it just reminds me of the hurt and makes it so fresh that I just want to pull my hair (or hers) out with frustration...

The most hurtful thing is that I have truly loved 3 women in my life time... 1 highschool GF(puppylove I know), my first wife, and Jess... all 3 of them cheated on me.... So at this point, I have to assume that no matter what I have going for me, there is something wrong with me or what I am doing.

Anyway.... I wanted Jess to know, that I have read her stuff, and I also wanted to represent myself. I am not a perfect person, I have my faults, but I am not a cheater. Regaurdless of what happens from here, my life and those of my childeren, are changed forever.....

Hi Vash, thanks for coming here and talking to us. There are many of us here who have been through what you are going through and now have great marriages. Some of us contributed to the sorry state of our marriages that made them vulnerable and some didn't.

For me, I have dealt with affairs in my current and former marriage. In the case of the former, I very much contributed to the conditions that made my marriage bad. In my current marriage, I DID NOT. That being said, I have learned how to have a GREAT marriage and how to AFFAIR PROOF my marriage.

You can learn this too, if you want the help. Your W certainly seems very willing to work on your marriage, so tehre is no reason you can't have a great marriage.

Have you ended all contact with this "friend?" Is he gone forever?

Hello Vash, welcome to MB. I can certainly understand your POV after being cheated on by your former wife as well. I am very sorry for the pain you and your children are suffering.

One thing I CAN tell you that Dr. Harley knows marriages. Give it a chance if you will and read one of his books. I highly recommend His Needs/Her Needs. Flirting is dangerous for a married person IMHO. You are asking for problems. You and your W both need to stop doing this, it is destructive and disrespectful to your marriage. Well the good part is you KNOW. The bad part is she lied to cover her *ss which is typical. It sounds like you feel she is still not forthcoming. Have you two considered counseling? This is good. You love but you don't need her. That means you should be able to deal with this with love and strength something many of us BS lack.

Yes, you are right your lives are changed forever. Are you up for working through this and building a better marriage?

Thanks for posting and giving us your side. I do hope you stick around.

God bless.

Hi Vash,

Welcome to the forum.

My initial impression after reading your wifes posts was that the main problems have been boundary related with specific emphasis on social situations that are not protective of your marriage.

Your post confirms this suspicion.

Your current situation shares a lot of elements with mine...at least on the surface.

Hopefully you will stick around and get to know some of the community better...we are not pros by any stretch of the imagination...just people who have recovered or are recovering from circumstances that are specific and related and not societally well understood.

There are things that you can do to protect your marriage in the future should you decide to attempt recovery.

So very sorry to see your need to be here. I have been cheated on by my ex wife and my fiancee. I know your pain. The first thing you need to do is to decide if you want to be married to a woman that could do this to you with anyone... let alone with your friend and in your house. Those are two very disrespectful things that she did and would be very difficult to forgive under the best of circumstances.... but given your history, it may be even more difficult to stay married to an admitted cheater.

There is something in you that allowed you to stay with your first wife after all of those betrayals. It is not healthy for you to have done that and I think you would do well to get some IC before making any decisions about your current M. You need to learn skills that will allow you to take better care of yourself.

Your W needs to come clean about everything right now. Tonight. She cheated on you... she doesn't have the right to be so disrespectful that she will now compound that cheating with lies. If you suspect she is not telling you the truth... most likely she isn't. Do not tolerate anything less than 100% honesty.

Make sure ALL contact with the j-off has ended. Your W is to NEVER have any more contact with him.

I know you love your W. Find the answers to what has made you tick and then figure out if you can still save your M. I wish you both well.

Well I'm glad to see he read some of my posts. I see him trying everyday. I know right now he is doing it for our kids. It still gives me hope. He is correct about the fact that I lied when first caught.

I was acting like a child. I was thinking that he new I would never do anything like that and beleive the lies. I wanted them to be true so badly. I hate what I did. My husband is a very wonderful man who gives a lot. We have had our problems but we where stronger because of them. He had nothing to do with this.

So we'll see where it takes us. I a mbeing honest with him now. I guess it just takes time to beleive in the cheater again.

Yes we have cut off all contact with OM. I am not sure if I'll run into him at work. I hope not. If I do I'll tell My H right away and remove myself from the situation.

Thanks.

I wish my WW would have had half the response that you did. No, mine instead justified everything she did and then left me. She is still out there, technically having an affair right now with a guy she met after she moved out. She doesn't act remorseful in the least.

Give him your love. Be sincere with it; he will believe.

If you work with the OM you need to quit your job immediately and find other employment.

If there is any chance he will show up at your work, I would take steps to ensure that you do not cross paths. EVER. Why would he ever be at your workplace? It won't be good enough to just tell your H about contact, it is important to take every step to ensure it NEVER happens in the first place.

I don't work with OM. Thank you for your advise. I would quit if he worked with me. I am a bartender so there is a slight chance that he could come in. I am 99% he will not.

Have you considered finding a new line of work given your problems with alcohol?

Okay I don't have a problem with alcohol. I do not drink at work. I know that having an affair while drunk seems like a problem with alcohol to some.

So in short I maybe a lot of things a liar a cheater but not an alcohlic.

Thank you for your advise. I may sound a little ****** about this but I grew up in a alcoholic home and will not let my kids do the same.

wasvash, I am an alcoholic and I can tell you that acting in ways under the influence that you would never do while sober is a sign of SERIOUS trouble. If alcohol causes you so much trouble that you have to "swear it off" then oyu have a PROBLEM. Normal drinkers do not have to "swear it off." Even you have admitted that you can't handle your liquor and are staying away from it.


You can't very well "swear off alcohol" if you spend your evenings in a bar, serving it. That is just ASKING for trouble.

This is true. Most people would have a hard time working around alcohol. It is not a social bar it is a resturant with a bar in it. I am a bartender 2 nights a week and a food server 3 nights.

I am swearing off alcohol for now not for life. My H isn't a big drinker either. It just seems like the right thing to do. I haven't gotten into trouble because of drinking before. I don't know why I did what I did. I am not using alcohol as an excuss. There isn't one for what I did. I am deeply sorry for the choise I made that night.

Thanks again.

Well, I see that you did use alcohol as an excuse. "But god help me I was drunk and don't know why I DID IT."

You claimed to be drunk and not in your right mind. That is a HUGE PROBLEM. It matters not how often or how much but WHAT HAPPENS while drinking that determines whether a person has a problem or not. And if you are fooling around with men when you drink, you have a serious problem. Like I said before, NORMAL drinkers do not have to "swear off" booze. And if you have a problem today, it will not magically be cured sometime in the future. Working in a BAR will not help this problem but will leave you vulnerable to it. That is not taking steps to protect your marriage, wv, that is just ASKING FOR IT.

I disagree with you. I did not use alcohol as an excuss. My H was asking questions I didn't remember the answers to because I was drunk. I have admitted to an attraction to the OM and he was a friend who I had a very flirtaous relationship with. We ALL thought we where safe. It was a mistake. I made a bad chose that night.

The word normal is bugging me a little. Who had the right to say who is a nornmal drinker and who isn't. People act all kinds of ways while drunk and use it as an excuss. I AM NOT ONE OF THEM. I am taking responceability for my actions that night in every way.

So, you are admitting that you would have done this if you were STONE SOBER?

No. I would never have done it while sober. I would never have done it if I had only 2 drinks. I said I was not using it as an excuss. I take full responsiblity for what I did.

Did the fact that I was drunk make it easier for me. Yes. I did it while I was drunk not because I was drunk. I wouldn't do it again and I will not do it sober. I could go into all kinds of reasons why the alcohol affected me this night and not others but then I think it would be an excuss.

I have great respect for those of you who are willing to help in giving advise. It has helped me to feel a little better. For those of you who have gone threw this and come out the other side stronger and better. Wheather it is in or out of the marriage.

I don't have a problem with drinking I had a problem while I drank two seperate issues. I think that I've definded myself enough for one day. Ididn't come here for that. I came for help eith my marriage. So thank you for your concerns.

ok, wv, you want us to believe that you would never do this sober, but on the other hand you want us to believe you are not using the alcohol as an excuse. You can't have it both ways. That is not convincing or rational.

Only you can decide if you have a problem or not, though. But take it from someone who has been there, done that. People who do not have problems with their drinking DO NOT need to "swear it off," nor do they do things under the influence that are morally repugnant to them. That is a serious sign of trouble.

Even if you won't take it seriously, I would just suggest to your H that he is probably not safe if you continue to tend bar. Since drinking, admittedly, caused this affair, then it might be wise to remove yourself from an environment that promotes drinking.

Okay so I am sitting here getting very angry with you. Is it because you are saying things I don't want to hear. Ofcourse.

I'll say it again I had the affair while drunk. I would never do something like this sober. You don't have to beleive me. I don't have a drinking problem. I came to this website for help with my marriage not help with my drinking. I have worked at this job for 6 years and have never been drunk or drank at work. I was at the job before this one same situation for 13 years and again never drank at work. I'm sure it is hard for someone with a "drinking problem" to understand.

When I say I'm not using being drunk as an excuss I mean I am not asking for forgiveness based on the fact that I was drunk. I am not saying that what I did was the fault of drinking. I did it not Captin Morgan......

If i where to misplace something because I was drinking Iwould have NO problem saying "Gosh honey I would never leave my jacket some where sober, must have been the last 3 drinks". That is what I mean by not using acohol as an excuss. If you think I am that is your right. Maybe I have the wrong meaning for excuss.

So reading all of this I have to refer back to my first post...

MelodyLane, I understand your position. I have been around recovering alcoholics my whole life. I know that if I told you about my drinking habbits, you would consider me an alcoholic. I like to stick wit hthe old adage of "I am not an alcoholic, I am a drunk, Alcoholics go to meeting..." j/k.

Anyway, this is my main problem with "help" forums. There is 2 pages now about an argument that does not exisit. Though I didn't think to defend my wife, she does NOT have a problem with alcohol. She does not have problems at work...

You see, this is part of the problem. She is one of the most moralistic people I have ever met. As I said in my OP, that was part of my attraction. She drinks herself silly maybe 3 times a year, and 2 of them are in the privacy of our home. I would never allow something this epic to be trivialized by a few drinks...

Again, you don't really know me, or her. All you know is a situation that we have tried to lay out here. This situation does not define either of us. Alcoholism does not define you. If you think it does then there are other problems that you have and should not be giving the kind of advise I appreciated from you before the Alcoholic break out. This is not to say that I don't appreciate or respect your words, I do. I just don't believe in a human definition based off of words typed on a forum.

@ others here, thank you for your kind words. Let me clear up a couple things here...

I still believe she is being dishonest about 2 things.
1. About what happened in general, I think she is leaving things out.. ommition as a lie
2. There was a phone call from her to him that lasted 14 minutes the day after(I checked her bill) that she claims was a Voice Mail.

Him, I talked to him the day after and he claimed to want to be friends still and that he blacked out blah blah blah, if ANYONE in this situation has problems with drinking, its him. I very politley, but very pointedly explained to him what he did to my family, and that he and I were not going to be friends any more. I also called all of our other friends and told them that I was not going to be hanging around them much anymore as I would never force them to choose between he and I.

1 week to the very minute that I actually walked in (230am) I sent him a page that read "Happy 1 week anniversary, I hope your sleeping better than me." Thats about the meanest thing I have done or said to either one of them.

I am not sure I will ever move on from this. Time will tell. I know that I love her, and that she loves me. I also know that our childeren need both of us... I just don't want to look at her 5 years from now and hate her guts, or regret my choice to stay... for now, I am taking all the time I want and need to make a better choice for the future.

Again thank you all.

Vash, whatever you may think of these forums many of us are here offering a hand because of the help we got when we hurting. This forum saved my life and my marriage. Maybe many would not have stayed through what I did but never in real life have I found the type of support, guidance and help growing and changing myself than here at MB. People here spend their own time and give of their own hearts to help both BS's and WS's recover their marriages. Your WW is rare in that she came here on her own and wants to recover your marriage. While she still may be foggy and not 100 percent open with you yet, the tools for recovering your marriage are right here at your finger tips. Whatever you decide, stay or D, the fact is you both need to do some growing up and changing. Flirting and drinking are not good characteristics of a marriage nor what I would want to teach my children. You both have a great opportunity. I do hope you take advantage of it.

vash, Your hurt is totally understandable. The only thing I wonder about it your need to question Jess about the sex. How much of it do your think she really remembers? You heard it all anyway? Why didn't you go in as soon as you suspected your friend was kissing your wife? Why did you wait until it was all over and there was so much more damage to deal with? Aren't you just a little accountable for allowing your wife to proceed when you could have stopped her before you had so much more misery to deal with? I just don't get how you could stand outside the room and let your best friend have sex with your wife? Can you remember why you didn't react more assertively?

Try to remember that Jess won't recall everything she did and thought. She will be totally panicked and that kind of panic tends to block out bad memories. If it was good at the time, it won't be good in her mind now. She will now feel self disgust and horror at the memory of it. Of course she lied to you. She was trying to save her bacon. It seems to me that you have a lot of practise with forgiving. Seven times from your first wife? Hopefully Jess is different. I would suggest that you forgive her once and once only. Then leave if it happens again.

So sorry for you hurt!

AN

Again, as with all forums, people read what they want and forget or discard the best. In my only 2 posts I have thanked everyone for thier kindness and advice. I have not and will not attack anyone here for your support of my wife. I will however defend what I feel needs defending when I feel defense is appropriate.

I take exception to the above statement made by you faithful. For many reasons that I will not go into and a couple that I will. Again, Do you really believe that you know me? or her? I am here to tell you that you do not even have a idea of me. You think that I am a bad parent becasue I flirt? How dare you... You sit upon your "I have been through it and survived" horse and judge me as a person, as a parent? This is not cancer, your life was not over becasue you or your mate cheated on you... It was just another life situation. Its a car wreck nothing more... You get in them, sometimes your hurt much worse than the last time, but you make choices on how to proceede and you move on. Life moves on.

That woman was everything in this world to me. If I do leave, it will cost me a fourtune in counceling and the next few women I date will not come out of the expierence very well... I do not have some termanily ill disease. Again, do not judge me, judge the expierence I wrote for you.

Flirting is a communication tecnique. It does not mean you are a horrible person. If you have any interaction at all with the opposite sex, and you and that person get along on a better than average scale, chances are, one or both of you is flirting... You can not fight human nature/genetics, its how we are all built. Sorry, but its true.

AGAIN so that I am not misconstrued, I appreciate your words of encouragement and of emapthy, but please do not judge me on a situation that I have taken all of 10 minutes to write... I. like each of you, am a complex, grafic, complete individual... and I can not possibly be summed up by anything that you have read on me here.

I came to this web site to try to understand what I did. I hurt the one person in my life who even though I did this god awfull thing is still trying to protect me.

I don't like the picture that is being painted in everyones eyes. We had fun with flirting. I knew he loved me and he knew the same. The people that new us best like the dynamics we shared together. As we did. I think that you are right when you say drinking and flirting do not mix for me. It was a bad thing. I will not drink in a situation like that again or maybe ever. It is something that I will have to think about.

As for being honest wit hmy husband I am. I have iven him the details and I have answered all his questions. The fact is that the only two people that know the truth are the two people he trusts the least.

thank you for your replys. I do get help and hope from all of you.

Thank you AN. I guess I didn't explain this part well enough, though I hesitate to do so now as I have again run into the typical forum people.

I did not stand out there and listen to them have sex. It was over way before I started listening... In fact I only started listening becasue I heard her voice... They kissed one time that I heard and thats when I decided to walk in. As for the sex, I do not want to know every detail... but I will tell you this, There are things that her and I do with each other in bed. For example, during sex, she reaches up and puts her hand up against the wall above her head... It is a sensual move and something that I feel reserved for me. I know, that she did this with this guy... not becasue she told me or I saw, its just something I know she did.

See sex is just sex in this world today.... wheather you do it wit hsomeone you care about, or someone you don't. Its just nature..! What makes the act of sex into the art of lovemaking, is the connection and familiarity of the 2 people. Things like putting her hand above her head is what makes it familure to me and it is what the bond of a couple during sex is all about.

So why do I need to know about the sex, because I want to know just what it was for her. Was it a casual sexual expierence, or was it a true indepth betrayel of even our most intimate shared connections....

In the end you may be right. It may all be very masicistic, but I can not help it. I have to heal one way or another, and to do so, I have to know what it is that made her do this.

Thanks for you words AN....

Typical forum people!!!!!

This is the most untypical forum I've ever been involved with.

You say we don't know you. Oh yes we do.

I'm rushing to the defence of my friend Faithful here but you don't know her either. She's been a WS she's been a BS at least three times. Her husband has a child with the last woman.

Sex is just sex?? Not in my world.

Great reply to a post that was in no way an attack on her... instead it was a defense FROM an attack BY her...

and no, you don't KNOW me. I am probably older than you and her both. I have expierences that you can not even fathom.

Please do not persieve that I attacked her, and do not come in defense of a person that was not attcked and probably doesn't want your defense anyway...

When I refer to the same forum, I did not say that this FORUM was atypical, but the people on it... People on ALL forums judge others by a few words that are posted her and there... That is not knowing an individual. That is not even a glimpse into a hunderedth of a person... I would never make the mistake of judgeing you based on what you posted here.

You make the point that this forum is not like any other, yet in the blink of an eye, you are ready to judge me, condem me, and persicute me based on some persieved insult that doesn't exist. I do not fight on the internet... no one ever wins.

Sorry that you feel so threatened and insulted for your friend on a forum that is about embracing and helping people... Way to be a shinning representitive!

BTW, can anyone point to a dang directory of all these terms... I am just not getting them all.

Dang it - Jen beat me to it. LOL!!!!!!

You know what Vash - the "typical" forum people here, MANY of then in this thread I regard as very close friends. They are so far from "typical forum people" you wouldn't believe it. Saved me and my marriage.

If Flirting is so harmless, as you both seem to think it is, why did your wife end up in BED?

Flirting is communication? Yep - sure is. Just be REAL careful about what it communicates.

How's flirting working out for you both?

In the Just Found our forum there is a post pinned at the top with all the acronyms in it.

It's interesting you compare yourself to other posters (and make assumptions and judgements about them) on the basis of a few words they write as well no?

Again I am attacked... What a bunch of hypocrits!!!

You talk about help, and you attack me and poor salt into a wound that obviously has not been even remotely healed.

You sir, are a ******! I am glad that your little community has not leaked out to the rest of the forums because if I wanted to be beat down regaurding this situation, I would talk to my family about it....

Thanks, but no thanks for the hypocracy!

Older than me? No one's older than me.

No you don't know us. He came to this site on my invatation because earlier today I was told it was a good idea. In the last 3 hours I have been called a ba parent and that I have a drinking problem. My H has been told that he is a bad parent and that he should have stopped the affair before it started.

If you read all of it you'd see that none of that is the case. I spent more time today trying to convince someone that I didn't have adrinking problem than I did on my marriage. We are very good parents so I will not even go there.

I do thank you all for replying. I like the interaction. It helps me. It's just not for him. He is a great man and father.

You think that was an attack? WOW

Folks,

I don't know what has gotten this thread into such a mess. But, why not back off and get down to business.

MrsVash, if drinking is NOT the problem, what did you tell yourself to give yourself permission to violate your marriage vows? How did you arrive at a point where you did not respect your H?

These are the type of questions YOU need to be addressing. It may be part alcohol, but alcohol does NOT make one an adulteress. Something else is going in within you and you need to figure out what it is or your H is never going to feel safe.

Please think about this.

God Bless,

JL

JL - You don't know? I'll bet you do just as I do but are trying to play "peacemaker." "Peacemaker" is a good role, by the way.

In a nutshell, here's the reason. Mrs. Vash comes on ostensibly seeking "help" to recover her marriage after her CHOICE. The same "choice" that every Wayward Spouse has made. To stick a knife into the guts of the one they "love" (probably because they have no real concept of what LOVE really is and substitute self-interested desire and wants for love, i.e., "what's in it for ME?"). This attitude, by the way, is the same attitude that is contained in their belief that "flirting" is "harmless." So is playing with matches, until a fire gets started.

Then she immediately goes on the defensive and disagrees with just about everything anyone has to say.

Then along comes Mr. Vash. HE is the Betrayed Spouse, and all of us who have been Betrayed KNOW the emotional turmoil running around in his head, especially since he already had one wife screwing around on him.

He wants to have BOTH his anger and distrust and his wife, so be begins to rationalize with nonsensical statements like "sex is sex in the world." It IS for animals, it is NOT for humans. That attitude is simply a form of "justifcation" to behave selfishly, not LOVE.

We all, or at least most of us who have been Betrayed, struggle with the FACT of the betrayal and the desire to "defend" the indefensible CHOICE of our spouse because WE chose them to marry in the first place.

His emotions, not his logic, are "running the show" right now.

Until both of them are willing to accept that "doing it their" way has NOT worked, not in his previous marriage not in his current marriage, there will be no CHANGE in behaviors that contribute to the environment and the very great likelihood that there will be a "repeat" of some rationalization and justification for adultery in the future, by either one of them.

ANGER is what is driving Mr. Vash right now. Guilt is what is what is driving Mrs. Vash right now. You and I both now that little "constructive" can be offered, much less accepted, when the "Taker" is in control.

So if they truly want help, we'll see that. If they continue to think that they "don't need anyone else," there will be nothing we can do to help them anyway.

So is the point that you both want to fix the marriage but not actually change anything?

If you do something while drunk that you wouldn't normally do, the way to prevent it is to never drink again. Why is that hard to accept?

But if you'd rather just focus on the forum of people who are trying to help you and make us a common enemy, I guess that's a pretty effective way of avoiding dealing with things.

Methinks there is a whole lot of avoidance.......and DENIAL going on here. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

wasvashesgirl2 and vash,

I am terribly sorry this has gotten so off track here for the two of you. I understand your hesitance ... which unfortunately appears to been validated by the side track ... it is however a rarer exception......... althuogh I don't post often I read alot ..........

Thank you Just Learning for recognizing how off track this tread has gotten. Two thinkgs I want to point out to all:

1. I hope that all of us realize that everything here is written. It is easy to misinterpret communication when it is face to face and even easier to misinterpret in the absence of face to face contact. It is in fact one of the main problems that many of us experience in marriage is misinterpretation of our spouses communication. I hope everyone here will take that to heart and recognize that all of us are subject to misinterpreting one another and hold ourselves accountable for clarifying things before we jump the gun.

2. Might want to do some research on alcoholism before jumping the gun on someone. I unfortunately know the subject all too well. My family tree is laden with it. Fortunately the buck stopped with my mother. There is a difference between an alcoholic and someone who abuses alcohol. The difference is in the use of it for coping and whether not the alcohol has control.

3. When any of us get defensive about something that is said I think it is important for us to ask ourselves the question "Am I getting defensive because they are on target?" or "Am I getting defensive because they are off target and I do not feel they are hearing me?" This is good practice in our marriages and good practice here.

wasvashesgirl2 and vash

As far as your original response. I will have to go back to what I think 2LLP said. Look at your lifestyle. Something made you vulnerable. There is no way around this, only through it. It is tough but we can survive. Just because a spouse does it once does not mean they will do it again. The tough questions have to be asked. What made the marriage vulnerable to the affair? What changes do we need to make in our lifestyle? Our marriage? Ourselves? To protect one another, you marriage, your children, your family, your home.

This can happen to anyone. People who have relatively good marriages to marriages that are totally on the rocks. No one knows whether or not the A would have continued if vash had not caught you. You simply have to deal with it as it has been laid out.

Take whatever lesson this horrible experience has to offer and learn from it. If you think your marriage was good before, then take this as an opportunity to make it even better (and protect your marriage from future affairs to the extent humanly possible).

There are a mass of resources out there. Starting with this site and Dr. Harley's material. The information and material he offers, including his books, are great for any couple who wants to build a more satisfying relationship. I think they are especially useful for those of us who have been devestated by a spouses affair, simply because they offer a structured method for working through something during a time when it is so hard focus on anything.

Some other really good resources you should check out are:

beyondaffairs.com
dearpeggy.com

I've read most of Dr. Harley's material, as well as most of the recommended reading on the two noted above. In each one I take what is useful from each. No one source has all the answers. That I will stand by. beyondaffairs is Anne Brechts website she wrote a wonderful book called my husband's affair. It is an incredible story of a marriage that was pretty decent, in which neither would have expected it to happen, and an incrediable story of a couples and a families recovery.

I wish you the very best in your recovery. Whatever the outcome, actively working on your healing and recovery are vitally important to your future. To the extent that you do so is the extent to which it will either have a positive or negative impact on your children.

BA, no one here has called vw an "alcoholic" and this thread only went off track when she was told some unpleasant truths she did not want to hear. That is all too common with folks who are in denial. She clearly has a problem with alcohol, which she admits, that she does not want to address.

For the record, I am a recovering alcoholic with 21 years of sobriety, so I am all too familiar with the warning signs. I am a sponsor in AA and was a circuit speaker for years so I do know a little about it.

But it matters not at all is she is or isn't an alcholic, what matters is that she CHANGES HER ENVIRONMENT. She has admitted that she has a serious problem with alcohol in that this is WHY the affair happened.

Common sense would dictate that she REMOVE herself from a drinking environment since she, admittedly, CANNOT handle her alcohol. A person who cannot handle alcohol should not be serving it for a living. Is that really such a hard concept to understand?

I think there are other reasons that the affair occurred, but in order to protect the marriage from future affairs, then changes have to be made. And one of those changes, OBVIOUSLY, should be her work environment.

Vash, you can think or say anything you want about me. I don't care. But I do care enough about marriages and children to say again it is immature to flirt. It is not a communication tool, it is a lack of boundaries. No I don't pretend to "know" you or your wife, but I can tell you after being on this site and dealing with this crap for as long as I have that I have learned a lot about personal and marital boundaries.

mrs vash

having been in your shoes a far as adultery goes AND using alcohol to allow me to act on my feelings, I found the important thing was to delve deep down to WHY?
there IS a reason even if you have not yet admitted it to yourself. Its probably something that comes around in your thoughts and you quickly shove it down again.
Whatever allowed you to CHOOSE sex with someone else, that even allowed you to become involved with someone other than your husband, well you have to dig it out like a cancer before you can begin to really heal, before you can face your H and truly say NEVER EVER again.
Flirting must be involved somehow, you even have said so explaining the back ground of contact with the OM. Its something YOU have to dig into, people here can only bring these things from your posts to your attention and try to help you. But you will need to do the work.

Will your husband heal? depends ... most can heal if given the environment to heal. Healing so often is also a choice. Part of it means NO CONTACT ever with that OM. If he ever contacts you, runs into you, even with a 100 friends around you leave and let your H know right away.
It means you have to accept he will not trust you for some time. no way around it you stuffed up big time. You will have go to some length to demonstrate, not tell or talk about it, that you may be trusted from small things to big things, from emotional issues to day to day issues. THIS WILL TAKE TIME, months, maybe a year or so even. Your behaviour has to be consistent.
As time goes on you may even think its unfair. However THAT’S part of the price that is paid to rebuild the trust
Mrs vash MB can work, but its not easy, its not avoidance and requires commitment. In fact its bloody hard. But so it should be. What we did was even harder on our spouses.
One other thing is that your old Marriage is gone, can’t get it back, its gone. Both of you will have to rebuild from the ground up in many ways.
You probably like I and many others here wont like what you are advised. Unfortunately so often its absolutely right, not easy, not palatable, but right. Its come from a lot of bitter experience from some good people who quiet frankly wont let you get away with much avoidance or wishy washy excuses on this forum. Feeling indignant at some question sent your way is not unusual, its also not just done at random its done to make your THINK about your position and feelings, to question them.
I would also advise you to seek actual counseling from the Harleys or someone as good, good experienced counseling is worth its weight in gold and from all the talk back here its very very good and they actually use methods which from practical experience actually work, Sometimes it sounds counter productive but it still works. So pls consider professional advice as well.
You can build a new relationship with your husband but be prepared to work outside your comfort zone in some areas.
Yes if you wondered we are well into recovery but I am never taking that for granted.

BTW, when I said this site saved my life, I meant it. I was on the verge of suicide. Don't tell ME what I feel. Only I know what I feel and I would never disrespect someone by saying their feelings are not real. You have no idea what kind of pain comes with your husband having a child with another woman outside your marriage. Especially when you have longed for another child after your youngest became ill and severely disabled. How DARE you discount MY feelings.

bwwwwwwwwaaaaaaaaahaaaaaaaa that is too funny, Jen. Well maybe 2long or JL are. BTW, you have no idea but one of the wisest people I know on this board is only 28. She has more life experience and wisdom under her belt than anyone else I know (well except for maybe JL) Age has nothing to do with maturity, Vash. My FIL is the most immature 70 year old man I have ever known.

Well this has been an interesting thread.

I will part company with many who point to alcohol as a contributing problem. The simple fact that Vash and wasvashesgirl2 state that alcohol is not an issue in their life means that, “It is NOT an issue.” Criticizing their drinking habits by projecting your habits on to them contributes nothing to their benefit. Some folks can drink and some can’t. These two are not asking for drug counseling and I seriously doubt that they need any based on the little information so far gleaned.

There is, however, something very valuable here for Vash and wasvashesgril2. That is, the invaluable lessons learned by the many who have had to suffer through the hurt of infidelity and more important, the way to repairing and building a new and better relationship. Kids, it is the “real deal”.

My simple advice to both of you; before you seek advice from these forums read all of the “infidelity” information that Harley has made available on this website. It is really great stuff and it will help you discern which posts might be more helpful then others. With that background in your hip pocket I will suggest that your views on what a healthy relationship is, might change a bit.

I will leave you with this thought; your future together will come down to what you BOTH want. If you both want it, then it will be yours. It takes a long, long time to recover from this kind of betrayal and how you utilize the tools here will determine how loving and rewarding your recovery looks like in the end. Not every couple is suited for the journey.

Keep your chins up,

Mr. G

MrG, no one is "projecting" their drinking habits onto this woman. We are just going by what she said. She is the one who CLAIMS to have done this only because she was under the influence and has "sworn off" alcohol. She said she would have never done it while sober. So please take the time to read the thread before you jump to hasty, illformed conclusions because you do these folks a disservice.

And I don't appreciate the catty comment that I am "projecting" when the facts clearly support what I have suggested.

Common sense dictates that if you have a problem with alcohol you should remove yourself from any such environment. I can't imagine why that is so hard for some here to comprehend.

Well I think that some of you are correct and some not. I value all the addvise given to me. Like with everything in life I will use some and not others.

I did not say I was attacked that was Vash. We are seperate people. I never blamed my affair on drinking. Never. I don't know what the reason I had the affair is. I understand that I have to look into myself and figure out why I went outside my marriage. I am willing to do the work. Not just for my H but for myself. This experience has made me feel like crap. Not because I got caught but because I hurt the person I love most in this world.

As to the whole drinking issue I am done. Done defending myself and done drinking. I will not quit my job. There is no prpblem there for me. I understand the fact that drinking is not why I had the affair. I never tried to put it off on to drinking. I was telling my story of what happen. Not defending myself. There is no defence.

I did not come to this site to find all the answers. My original question. Which by the was. How do I help my H understand that it wasn't his fault but 100% mine?

In the first few respnses I was told about some books which I will be reading. Then something ugly happened. I'm not sure how it did but it dosen't matter at all.

My kids are safe my H and I are making sure of that. We have a very strong friendship so even if we D we will be friends. i love him enough to let him go. If that is what he wants. He is here trying everyday. This happened 10 days ago and is still very fresh.

Again ladies and gentalmen thank you for all your words of wisdom.
Jeesica

Melody, Here is what I see...

Having read her first post and then the subsequent posts by both her and her husband, it seemed clear that they both went through great pains to state that their life is not plagued by alcoholism. If this is indeed the case or not it cannot be determined in a few short posts. At this point it seems logical to treat “infidelity” and not “alcoholism”. Alcohol did not cause this woman to have an affair.

Your ability to conquer alcoholism is a huge achievement. I cannot imagine what it must be like to have to take, “one day at a time”. Conversely, I would guess that an alcoholic would have trouble understanding how someone could have a glass of wine with dinner without drinking the whole bottle.

Melody, perhaps I’ve misunderstood your posts but it seemed that you were insisting that alcohol was the major underlying issue when it seemed that there just wasn’t sufficient information to draw such a conclusion especially to draw such a conclusion over the posters objections.

Jessica,

I sincerely hope that you and your husband continue to work towards recovering from this tragedy. Like I said if you both really want to recover then your success is all but assured. The reward is huge so I urge both of you to at least pursue it in the short term. Give some of the Marriage Builder concepts a test drive. Discuss what seems to work and what doesn’t. Oh, by the way, one of the most productive actions that my wife and I did to recover was to consult with a “PRO” marriage counselor. We used Steve Harley via telephone and it was extremely beneficial. It taught me things I never knew and I thought I knew everything. Use whomever you want, just make sure you use someone who will build your relationship and not destroy it.

Ten days past discovery is too new. Give your relationship some time. Like I said, this is “great stuff”, the “real deal”.

Mr. G

Okay folks...thought I would jump in here.

Vash and Mrs. Vash...step back a minute. Take a deep breath. I want you to listen for a sec.

First off, the principles used on this website work. Dr. Harley has better success at repairing marriages hurt by infidelity than anyone in the country. So, you really BOTH need to do your homework!! You need to read his books. You need to maybe read some of the different threads on here and see how some marriages made it...and others did not.

You need to first realize...and repeat with me..."We are NOT unique!!" Because you are not. I have been here because of my own issues...and then to help others...since 2002. I have seen and heard it all! So have many others here that have and will try to help you. They do so for one reason only...because they have been through it and they want both of you to get through this. So, before you begin to become angry with anyone here...even some that post things that might not be correct...please understand WHY they are taking the time to become involved. Okay?

From there, let's get to the first issue I have heard over and over on your thread here. "You do not know me." Well, no...none of us really know each other. Not personally. But those that have been on here, been thru this...and have learned the principles here...do know adultery. Do know the WHYs of it. Do know how to stop it. And do know how to protect against it.

Vash...do you know your wife? You said you do. But in this thread, you were surpirsed that she committed adultery when she had shown previously she was against it. So, how well do you know your wife? I dont want an answer to the question! I want you to see that "you dont know me personally" really has no bearing on figuring out this mess your wife and you have created and how to get thru it and beyond it. Believe me from someone who didnt believe a word these people said when I first got here!!

Now, I said that your wife AND you created this mess. And you both did! Hers is obvious. Your contribution is less so. I want to first repeat what your wife said...she and she alone is responsible for her adultery. Do not take on one ounce of responsibility for her behavior. Got it?

But...these things do not happen in a vacuum. They do not happen by "accident." Adultery is ALWAYS a willful act of betrayal. The issue here is to find out "why." What in your marriage made your wife, whether drunk or not, want to be with this guy (Mrs. Vash...I will get to you in a minute, okay?)? What did you do to contribute to the environment where this was possible? Where your wife would feel attracted to another guy and want to act upon it?

Let me say something here...because I know what your response to my questions will be. You want to say that everyone has attractions to others or something like that...right? Okay...in my 13 year marriage...have I ever felt attracted to another woman? Sure. Did I ever WANT to act upon it? Nope. Actually, the attraction to this other person made me want to get closer to my wife...and further away from that woman. This is the way it should be.

When an attraction like that leads to a spouse thinking about it, or flirting with that person, or going the whole way into adultery...then there was an issue in the marriage...as well as a character flaw with the spouse that cheated. My wife cheated. I did not. Why did she...and why didnt I? The conditions in our marriage were the same for both of us. After I found out, I could have justified leaving her or getting into a revenge adultery. Why did she...and why didnt I?

Vash, you cant answer the "why did she?" She has to. But what you need to do is take a very close look at what environment you have set up for your wife to live in. I used to think flirting was harmless. I now dont have conversations with married women except in the office and in group settings with their spouses there or involved. And NO flirting.

Why? Why cant a little "harmless" flirting be done? Because it is NEVER, EVER harmless! It is disrespectful to your marriage. It may lead the other party to assume things you dont assume. And maybe, just maybe, it will lead to pushing boundaries so far...that with a little alcohol (for example), you wake up one morning wondering what happened!

You need to do an inspection of you, Vash. On how protective you are of your boundaries...of your marriage. You also need to understand what your wife's most important emotional needs are (get her to take the questionaire on thsi site) and meet those top 5 consistently.

Vash, this stuff is NOT rocket science. Satan has been doing this for centuries...and we all fall for the same things over and over. Your wife did not commit adultery with your "friend" out of some accident or indiscretion!! She did so because of things in your marriage that would allow her to think that this was a viable alternative. She was not raped, right? Then she wanted to do it...no matter the level of alcohol.

What boundaries will you set up to prevent this from happening again? If you both are serious about moving forward and finding a way to affair-proof your marriage, then I see two things that have to be addressed ASAP! First, stop the flirting! It is a communications technique...for single people! You are married...act like it! You may want to discredit those that are saying to stop by saying it doesnt hurt...but by everything you have posted here so far, this is THE single biggest reason your wife and your "friend" acted upon their attraction. It's like a car that should have a red light in front of it. But, she turns it green sometimes (flirting). Then with the car barreling at the intersection...and her drunk...she doesnt even see the light and blows right thru what should be a red light.

The safest thign to do is not to play this game.

Second, I am not claiming alcoholism here. So, dont jump on me. But, it does appear that your wife is impulsive when drinking. Sorry to say...but leaving a jacket does not set off the same alarms as me about ready to jump in bed with another woman. One is an act of forgetfulness. The other is an immoral act with which we all should have boundaries that keep us from crossing it.

Let me use a better analogy. Let's say I am drunk...and I wander into my neighbors yard. I am guilty of trespassing...but there was really no harm to anyone. So, it is wasy to see me forgettign where the property line is while I am drunk.

But, if I am drunk and I wander onto a interstate highway, after jumping a huge fence, after signs saying do not enter...after knowing the danger to me and others...then I have a different issue here. The alcohol has allowed me to over ride even the most stringent boundaries. And that IS a problem!!

So, my suggestion is that if alcohol isnt a problem in your mind or Mrs. Vash's mind...then it shouldnt be a problem giving it up. Right? Why take the chance?

Now, Mrs. Vash...

Seems liek I was beating you up here...but I really wasnt! Both of you are coming at this from different perspectives. I was just talking, one BS to another.

You are a WS and thus you have a different outlook on this. So, I want to hit on a few things here...

First, I dont know if you are telling the truth or not about whether or not you have given your husband all of the info he has asked for. I will tell you this...the quickest way to have your husband walk out that door forever is to keep ANYTHING from him or to lie about ANYTHING from now on! So, if you are hiding something...I advise you to come clean. Many times, the sex isnt the worst blow to the BS. It is the lies. And I am mostly talking about the lies AFTER they find out.

Many WSs say they want to "protect" their BS from the nasty truth. But what they dont understand is that you arent protecting them at all. There was a great post once that I saved. I will post it here, so you can understand why it is that BSs ask the questions we do...and why we need the truth.


I wont expound any further on that...as I think you understand.

Mrs. Vash...others have tried to get you to begin to see that the night in question was not one random indiscretion. There is something deeper here. Something you need to find out about yourself.

We can help. Many that have posted to you, including former WSs, are interested in taking that walk with you. To help you discover what this was, why it happened...and how to move forward.

If you fight that...this will happen again. If you trivialize what I said about the alcohol above, this will happen again. You say "No it wont!! I know better now. I wont everm ake that mistake again." But, didnt you say in your vows, didnt you say this to yourself and your spouse before this happened?

One truism is that once you cross a boundary...it makes it EASIER to cross it again!!!

So, what boundaries will you have to erect to make sure this neverh appens again? Well, you wont know what boundaries to put up until you know what the problem is. And we can help with that.

So, you can blow this place off as just another blog. Or meddling people who dont know either of you. That you are unique and that we couldnt possibly understand this.

And you both will miss the unique opportunity you have RIGHT NOW to use this very bad thing to put in place a marriage that will last a lifetime.

Your choice. I, and others, are here if you chose to take that route.

Again, I think if you read the thread carefully you will see that she does state that her drinking was INSTRUMENTAL in her decision to have an affair. She stated that she would have never done so if she were sober. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to discern that drinking is a problem and should be avoided if it leads to destructive behavior. Hopefully, one does not have to be an alcoholic to understand this. She recognizes this herself and has "sworn off" drinking for that very reason.


And your guess would be wrong. We don't for a minute think that everyone is LIKE we are. We are not retarded, just simple alcoholics. My EXPERIENCE and KNOWLEDGE in alcoholism do not warrant dismissal, as you tried to do. Who knows more about alcoholism and drinking problems than one who has been there and done that? But we do know a drinking problem when we see it. And when one acts in ways that are destructive and counter to their morals when drunk, we know there is a problem that needs to be addressed.

Do you dismiss your car mechanic as biased because he has a long, successful track record of fixing cars? I would hope not.

But, that is all beside the point. My experience, or lack thereof, does not address the question: is it WISE to operate in an environment the promotes drinking when one cannot handle drinking themselves?

Great post, Mortarman! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

My personal experinece with recovered alcoholics.... I was married to one many years ago... is that they see a drinking problem in others when none is present. That does not mean that is what is going on here... but I frankly do not see that this couple has a problem with drinking. Alcohol affects a persons judgement. This woman admitted as much but it does not imply that she has a drinking problem. It means she had a problem that night with her drinking and that it was a contributing factor in her infidelity.... not the cause. JMHO.

And my experience with non-alcoholics is they often don't recognize clear problems because of their lack of experience and discernment. They are blind to red flags that a more experienced person can see.

But it does not take an "alcoholic" to discern that if someone gets so drunk that they do something so destructive as have an affair, that they have a problem with alcohol and should avoid it. It just takes a little common sense.

Common sense would dictate that if drinking contributed to the affair, as she says it did, then drinking should be avoided.

As the poster told us, she would have NEVER done it had she been sober. Anyone who doesn't see this very simple truth is blind. Even she recognizes that she avoid drinking, even though some on this thread do not.

Ok so if drinking is not a problem, nor is flirting, and sex is just sex then why are you two really here looking for answers?

Apparently, the only "problem" here is MelodyLane and her big mouth audacity in pointing out that drinking might be a slight problem if you have an affair while under the influence. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Melodylane I can not win with you. I have sworn off drinking. I do understand that while being drunk I made a bad chose. I am not minimizing any of that. I would not have crossed the line sober to adultrey. I am not placing blame on anyone or anything but myself. I did have a problem with drinking that night. So to insure that it will not happen again. I will not drink again. It's that easy for me. I have never been a big drinker. My only exception to any of this is I am not an alcoholic or a problem drinker. Do you see the difference? If not it's not a big deal. I do and so does my H. That is what matters most.

I do think that my flirting was incredibly destructive to my relaqtionship. It started out as a gmae played back and forth for 2 years. Never crossing the line that was comfortable for my marriage. While drunk I carried the "game" to far. Not such a fun game anymore.

Do I understand it? No. That is why I am here. Why I am reading books. Why I keep coming back to this site for help. I want to understand why I did it. I do not ever want to do this again. It is a ugly thing.

I understand that I need to work on myself and I am willing to do the work.

Thank you all again.
Jessica

Jessica, that is exactly what I am saying. I have no idea if you are an alcoholic or not. I don't know. But the important point is that you recognize that you DO have a problem. You wouldn't need to "swear it off" if you didn't.

If you would rather call it a baloney sandwich than a "problem" that is fine by me. It is all the same as long as you recognize that drinking is a baloney sandwich that is to be avoided. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Oh my goodness. Now this is just getting silly. I have siad over and again that flirting is a problem. I didn't recognize it as one before. You live and learn. I have said that I understand that the drinking was a problem for me on that night. I also said that I would't be drinking anymore. I don't beleive sex is just sex. My husband said that. He was trying to point out that the pain I caused was coming from the lies.

I honestly have control over "my drinking problem". It isn't a problem for me. I was simply trying to point out that my job in a restraunt as a bartender would not be hard for me. I have been in the service industry all my life. It is where I do my best. I do not tend bar in a club or in a bar. We have rules about drinking. The rules are you can't do it. So it will not be a problem for me. That and having it implied that I was an alcoholic where my issues. Not the fact that alchol was a problem for me on that night. We all know tha tit is. That isn't important. Why I did what I did is. That's where I need help.

Again thanks.

Mrs. Vash,

Okay. You have said you wont drink again. Let's now drop that for a bit everyone. We may have to approach it again later.

So, did you read my post? I want you to describe here, pre-adultery, what the relationship was like with this guy. I also would like you to describe your marriage at the time.

Be honest!!!!!!!!! Dont leave out anything.

Mr. Vash, it may be time for a little while, that you start your own thread. You need to be able to vent and work thru things that should be your own. Same goes with your wife. She is confused, and as such, she will try to reason thru things for awhile. You will see some things written that will hurt. Or you might feel justified in posting in order to "correct the record." But in order to move thru the process, she is going to have to feel safe enough to be able to say whatever she needs to...so she can untangle this mess.

Same goes with you. You will have a lot of anger...a lot of questions. It wont help hearing this stuff. It also wont help right now to hear how your wife feels about your anger or hurt. After all, she is the one that caused it! So, you need your own thread right now in order to work thru things.

Anyway, Mrs. Vash...let's get started!

Really? So, an alcoholic... and not someone that lived with one would be more able to see the signs of trouble? I don't think so....the view from a partner of an alcoholic is much clearer and just as experienced.

MelodyLane I never said that you had a big mouth. I think you have very stong opinoins. And amybe a big mouth. My mariagge problems are why I 'm here. I didn't realize I had any. Well besides the normal everyday problems.

I need to find out what in myself caused this. I will look hard in the next few days. My husband went back to work today for the first time. It's strange to be here al by myself with my self. Gives me time to think.

I want to give him all the answers he needs. I am being honest with him. Now I need to be honest with myself.
Jessica

Sorry, but you are dead wrong. The REASON that AA is so successful is because it is very HARD, almost impossible, to fool another alcoholic. Generally speaking, a normal person is blind at spotting the signs that signal a drinking problem, because they cannot relate. This is why alcoholics are so successful at fooling their spouses and family members so long. An alcoholic, on the other hand, KNOWS these signals because he has BEEN THROUGH IT. In other words, ya can't [censored] a bullshitter. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Who in their right mind would argue with that statement? I whole heartily agree. What I question is the “direct” connection between alcohol and infidelity. You see, I don’t believe that alcohol is a cause of infidelity any more then I believe that daytime is a cause of nighttime simply because one follows the other.

First she said:


Then she said:


Then she said:


Then she said:


Then her husband said:


Finely she said:


All this in the span of a number of posts that can be counted on your fingers. Sadly, these folks may disappear from these boards and I wouldn’t blame them though I hope that does not happen. I think Mortorman contributed with a wonderful initial response. I would be most interested in JL’s opinion of what the next steps these folks should persue.

Mr. G

Jessica, I know you didn't say I had a big mouth [even though I am the first to admit it! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />] but I also know your heart is in the right place. You wouldn't be here if you weren't sincerely seeking help and I do applaud you for that. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

MrG, I am completely baffled about your objection is and wonder if you missed this:

MelodyLane: "So, you are admitting that you would have done this if you were STONE SOBER?"


She does admit that she would have NEVER DONE THIS unless she was drunk, so it can't be argued that this had nothing to do with drinking. It clearly DID. I suspect, like you, that this not the only contributing factor, but I have never said otherwise. You said that.

What does need to be recognized, and some seem to want to gloss over this for some strange reason, is that drinking is a PROBLEM here and should be avoided. When one acts in very destructive ways, in violation of their conscience, under the influence, then they should AVOID drinking. Its real simple.

I have been following this thread since inception and glad to say that it is back on track...at least veering towards the right track.

I am also glad that Vash and Mrs. Vash are here and although I understand some of their hesitations with these types of forums, I urge you both to stick around a while and with the help of all here, maybe we can provide some insight that will best case scenario allow Mr. and Mrs. Vash to start the rollercoaster road towards recovery and worst case basis at least provide some tools that will allow them both to have a personal recovery and give them ideas on how to prevent this from occurring yet again down the road. Mr. and Mrs. Vash, welcome to MB.

This whole post kind of hit me harder than most sitches because I saw too much similarity to my my sitch that occurred many years ago. Without rehashing all of the details but providing adequate background for my comments, my FWW more than eleven years ago, at a party, had more to drink than she should have and ultimately wound up having what started as a ONS turned occassional LTA. Adding to the similarity is that my FWW is generally impulsive but prior to her A probably the most moralistic and "least likely (or so I thought) type of person that you would be convinced would never engage in this type of conduct. Any of this sound kind of familiar Mr. Vash?

It would have been so easy for me to rationalize her actions as just irrational actions that occurred while under the influence and assisted by her impulsiveness. I probably would have taken this approach had it only been a ONS. However, that ONS gone uncaught turned into a romantic relationship that lasted about nine months with one little phone call a week after the event. It would have been so easy for me to rationalize this as just an impulsive, impaired judgement that happened. This is where that I see Mrs. Vash at right now.

But once I found out that this continued for another nine months on a long distance basis right under my nose without me even suspecting anything, I thought that it was the end of everything. However, I stand before you today as someone who has never been more in love with my wife, as someone that has not only seen changes in her but with myself that has allowed us to finally realize true intimacy in our relationship, and of someone who is much less judgemental of all people and acts than I once was. I owe this to my wife who finally committed to changing her behaviors that contributed to her ability to cross that line in the first place, several really good IC's who worked me through the roadblocks of recovery, and my "friends" here at MB, none of whom I have ever met and some that I don't even often agree with but whether WS or BS we all share the bond that our situation was not unique.

Our recovery would have never happened if I would have allowed myself to rationalize my wifes behavior by her being under the influence at the point of attack and by her character being somewhat impulsive. It was really hard for both of us but we only really got started with our recovery when the following had occurred:

1) We committed to a radical honesty policy. There is no protection for your spouse when you decieve. RH started for us really as an excuse that I used to pry the information out of my wife about the affair that she had compartmentalized and hidden from me for many years. Today, we use it as our principal weapon to protect our spouse not only from affairs and other detours to our marriage but to realize the true intimacy that can only be achieved when there is nothing between us that the other doesn't know.

2) Getting to the why of the affair. What conditions existed in our marriage that allowed the actions that started the process that led to the affair. Not how that the OM proposed, etc. but why that she allowed her boundaries to be expanded so far and failed to protect me so much that we allowed an OM to meet her needs (not the sexual needs but admiration, etc.) that ultimately led up the the act being performed. Further once we identified those issues, how given her moralistic attitude did she allow that to continue once she was not impaired.

3) Redefining our relationship to include reasonable boundaries designed to protect each other and our marriage. Is flirting harmless...obviously everyone has a different opinion as shown on this forum. But flirting is an advanced communication method that "requests" the flirtee to respond with meeting an emotional need...probably one of admiration. If we flirt, and the person we flirt does not respond, what is the purpose. If we flirt and the person responds with an acknowledgement that they think we are attractive, funny, whatever...aren't we really just using flirting to get the admiration that we need as an emotional need. If so, why are we willing to allow someone other than our spouse to fulfill that need?

The marriage that I have today hardly resembles the marriage that I had at any time prior to the A or to D-day. But it is a real marriage with true intimacy and zero secrets. It is also a marriage that places a high value on what each of us can do to PROTECT the other person in the marriage. We have new boundaries. We have those not because either of us thinks that we will have an affair, but because we love our spouse and are willing to give up things that are unimportant or less important to either of us in order to PROTECT the other spouse. As an example, my wife loves to dance, I don't. Prior to D-day when we were out or even when she was out at a business function or whatever, she would dance with other partners. But when I got the details that I needed to start to process not only the whys of the affair but the hows, I find out that the first non-plutonic touch between the two happened on a dance floor. Well in an effort to protect me in the future, we have a simple boundary. No dancing with others unless I am present or I agree that it is allright and they are with a group of others whom I know. It is not that dancing is inherently evil, just like your social drinking or your flirting may not be inherently evil...but it provides the opportunity for bad things to happen and so out of respect for our spouse, we choose not to do them.

Good luck in your recovery. I hope that you choose to try and recover your marriage. If not, I pray that you will be blessed with at least a personal recovery and will do things in your next relationship to ensure that those boundaries are not crossed, not ever again. Mr. Vash, you have already had two marriages affected by the cancer of adultery....there has to be a way to ensure that you never have to endure this again...period (at least an alternative to monkdom and eternal celebacy).

But to start the process, you must get to the whys. The alcohol was just one more thing that once your guard came down allowed you to focus on your actions without guilt, it was not the reason why the affair occurred. Mortarman's analogy with the trepassing was maybe the best I have ever seen. The why is what causes one person to decide to climb the fence in order to even get on the interstate access road to begin with.

NT

One other comment. My FWW danced with others many times when she did not wind up sleeping with them. She also drank many times without having a ONS. But in one instance, she drank and danced and wound up in bed with another person who was not me.

Rules of logic would prove that neither dancing or drinking was the "why" of the affair. Getting to the why is much deeper than that and unfortunately will be much more painful than being able to brush these incidences off as purely a mistake that happened impulsively while under the influence.

By the way. I am a social drinker that although I don't drink that often, on certain occassions (football tailgate parties) I start early, drink often and stop late. I may or may not know if I am too drunk to find the nearest bathroom and whether that bathroom is the guys or girls...but I have yet to walk out into the busy street or proposition another person who is not my wife. On the contrary, when I drink, I make sure that I don't start too close to the street or another mans wife because I know my judgement is impaired from drinking.

NT

NT, I don't think that drinking should be brushed off as the main cause either, but it has to be recognized that drinking contributed to the impaired judgement that allowed her to have the affair. Dancing does not impair one's judgement, drinking does. And just because one drank before and did nothing destructive does not mean it can't happen in the future. We all start somewhere.

And the reason it is important that she recognize this, and she does, is not so that she has a convenient EXCUSE, but so she doesn't put herself in that position again. She has recognized that her drinking contributed to her destructive behavior and I believe her. This is why she has "sworn it off."

People can and do things under the influence that are destructive that they would never do while sober. That is not an excuse but a signal to change one's behavior.

Vash and wasvashesgirl2,

I read about the first half of this thread so I don’t have all the ins and outs of what’s going on here but I would like to still give my 2 cents.

Vash and wasvashesgirl2 are the main subject of this forum. vashesgirl2 made that pretty clear in her first post. They are a couple in dire need of help. Criticism, arguing, etc. will not move their problem in any direction, unless of course they side with each other and blow off MB.

Vash, I agree with your thoughts on forums in general. It is very difficult if not impossible to get a true feel for who somebody is or what they are about on a forum. That is a limitation, one we all must look at closely just as you do.

Here are some positives I receive “seeking help/counseling” here.

• It is anonymous
• You can get a consensus to evaluate your situation
• You can put things into perspective by comparison
• You can get views by people who have lived through an affair or who are currently living through an affair.

As you know the emotions that accompany an A are amazingly strong. I could not accurately describe the real pain to someone else if I had to. Coming here you can discuss these things with people who already have that real sense of pain you feel, hence a better ability to understand the problem. I am speaking “generally”. There is bad advice everywhere, including here. But there is a lot of good here too.

With an IC or MC, you are limited to their book knowledge and maybe their life experiences which you are not privy to because they do not reciprocate in personal sharing. That does not mean an IC or MC is not a road to go down. I know there are many excellent ones out there and they heal millions of affair stricken couples.

My views may be quite bias, here’s why. My W and I went to an MC in the beginning of my W’s A. I wanted to tell the OM’s W that her H and my W were having an EA. The MC sided with my W and wholeheartedly disagreed that I should tell. That was less than one month into the PA which I thought was an EA. On the MCs recommendation I didn’t tell the OM’s W. 9 months later the A was discovered by me. During reconciliation my W told me that if I had gone to the OM’s W when I wanted to, the A would have been over right then and there. That was a costly mistake that I regret more than any regret I have ever had in my life. I wanted you to know this story so you see where I’m coming from and why I feel like I feel about forums. You may have had a totally different experience in MC if you have ever been, many here have.

I think the bottom line is we all need to seek help from many different areas of support. But we also need to understand each areas benefits and limitations. There is no one method that will restore a marriage; it is a very complicated situation that revolves around at least two very complicated people.
God Bless…

2LLP

Well, this is what differentiates you from an alcoholic. We DO NOT KNOW that our judgement is impaired. We DO come onto other peoples spouses and do things we would otherwise NEVER DO while sober.

Nottoday,

thank you very much. I enjoyed your post. That is where I'm at. The why of the affair. I'm not sure how together. It is very important that I do. My H needs to understand as much as I do.

I can sit here and think of at least ten times where my flirting with the OM crossed the line. I never thought about it before now. I will not lie to you or myself or my husband I liked the way it made me feel. I am getting older (36) and am starting to feel older. I am not sure if this has anything to do with it. I am just trying to deal with all the thoughts in my head.

It is getting harder for me to pick the my true feelings out of the jumbble of stuff that's in there. I don't want to find a quick and easy answer(okay I do)i know it is going to take a bunch of work on my part. i am willing and ready to doit.

I love my husband and family very much and as he stated earlier I can do it without him the simple fact is I don't want to.

ONS or other wise I was wrong. I wish I could have a do over.

Again thank you very much for your words .
Jessica

2LLP,
Thank you for posting again. I am goin gtotry the books you and your husband suggested in the beging of all this.

I will continue to post on MB. My husband may not. It has helped me already. I didn't realize how important the why was. I just thought that the fact that I was truely sorry would be enough. I see now that that isn't the case.

I need to do the work. I need to prove that I am a trust worthy person. Honesty is the best. I have tried to as honest with Jason. I realize to be honest with him first Ihave to be honest with myself.

Thank you for the words of wisdom and hope.

Jessica

I would like to thank someof you more level headed individuals for your responces.

In saying that, I am here one last time to tell you, that though my wife may stay, I will not! I tried sending an email to one of the moderators here, but it was bounced back as a bad email address so I will again air it here.

It seems that there are some very genuine people here. I hope that whatever my choice, that my wife finds the support and answers she needs here and that you all continue to provide such sage advice.

As for my self, I have already been called immature, a bad parent, and had one person taunt me about my feelings and this whole affair. I can not see how condemnation in anyway helps these types of situations. In fact, I in actuality, I have to almost discount anything any of these people have said to me in regaurds to any advice.

Anyway, I would like to thank everyone again, and I hope that all of the ehlp you provide to Jessica forwards her towards a better goal.

Vash

Wasvashesgirl2,

This is indeed an interesting comment from you speaking of your affair actions:



I suspect that you will come to find that the drinks did not cause you to have your affair. You we likely a “train wreak” waiting to happen. Your attraction to this man predated your evening of cocktails and that alone should suggest something. You may have in fact used the drinks as means to access something that you had already decided you wanted, the OM (other man). I’m sure you will think very carefully about this in the coming weeks.

As you begin to gather insights into what are the “true” causes of your affair you will move towards taking a more active and useful role in your husband’s healing. The thing that he needs most at this moment is the assurance that he is “safe” from a repeat performance. Words alone will not suffice although they too are important. It will take much, much more then just your promises that you will be a good girl. So I am sure you are likely wondering what else can a gal do outside of your solemn word of honor? Believe me when I suggest to you that there is much you can do.

At this early point you both are freshly wounded and desirous to begin some kind of healing. Your husband is currently by your side but he is filled with doubt, disappoint and anger. More then that though, he was likely shocked by how deep his love for you really was. After all, he stayed when all logical sense might have suggested that he run away as fast as possible, but his love for his wife has caused him to hesitate. I suspect your were no less shocked by your love for him. Your pleas for help and putting up with all this nonsense here is evidence of that. For the time being that rediscovered love will help carry you both forward for a period. Each of you is trying hard to accommodate the other as best you can. In Marriage Builders this is called “the giver”. Both of you are giving of yourself to benefit the other without regard to yourself.

Sadly, that can only last so long before it become too much of a burden to sustain. Before that happens you will want to have a “fix” in place. I am speaking of a sort of “plan” that will insure that the promise of fidelity can be logically expected by both you and most importantly, your husband. It is indeed the gift that keeps giving so it is important that you get it.

In order to bestow this gift or plan to your husband you must first discover the true root cause for your affair. Your plan will address the root cause with a set of corrective actions that are clearly verifiable to your husband. I wonder what they could be. I already know as you and your husband are merely textbook examples of countless others who have gone before you. Think very carefully of the things you can do that would make your husband feel secure. What things can he do to make you feel secure as this too is very important and should be part of the “plan”?

The time is now to begin a path back to recovery while simultaneously affair proofing your marriage.

Remember this, “If you both want to recover then it is all but assured”.

Mr. G

Oh yes, Vash,

I really hope you stay as the tools here are the best in the business. I will suggest that if you travel these pages very much you will soon discover the folks with the best insights. They are giving people who know “what’s what”.

The principles of Marriage Builders work best when both spouses understand and practice them so at least give that some consideration before you el-split-oh.

Besides that, how can your wife author a great recovery plan if you don’t understand its purpose? Help her so that she can help you. NO one person can do recovery by themselves.

It’s for both of you babe.

Mr. G

Mr.G,

Thank you. It is hard to have people saying that I would have done this regarless of drinking. Thant I had feelings for the OM before. It is truely making me feel sick.

Not because I think you are wrong but because I fear you may be right. It is hard for me the OM was my friend. Can those feelings get confussed? Can that have happened. I have cut off all contact with him.

I've always thought I've known how much I love my husband. There was a time when I thought I would die without him. He is everything to me. We have stuck together threw some pretty [censored] stuff. Always to come out stronger. My husband is not sure he can over come this. He is not sure he wants to. I can understand that. He is here for now because of the kids. He has been so kind to me. I can't tell you how much it means to me. I don't knoiw how he is doing it.

I want our marriage to work. I have said it before an dI'll say it again. I can and have made my way without him and if the need comes will do it again. I love him enough to let him go. If that's what he wants.

Thank you again for your words of wisdom.
Jessica

Vash:

Regardless of your decision with regards to your marriage and whether or not to ever come back here again, I for one will continue to support you and your wife and hope that things ultimately work out for the best.

I will probably get my own round of 2x4's for saying this but the main reason why I even joined on this thread was that I felt like that for whatever reasons, the thread seemed to be taking a turn that was helping no one. I understand how that you interpreted some of the comments to be direct insults to you and I also understand, knowing many of the other posters quite well, that all of their comments are heartfelt, genuine and were intended not to cause additional anguish but to hopefully provide some insight into your sitch from THEIR perspective.

I feel for you and your position right now. You are struggling with the same thoughts and decisions that all of us BS's faced after D-Day. Your D-day came in a way that would have been very difficult for most of us to handle. I have immense respect for you because even after catching your WW literally in the act, you are still a free man and not charged with any crimes or at least you have not disclosed them. That fact alone, in my mind discounts any thoughts that you are a bad parent, etc. Faced with the greatest adversity that any man can face in his physical life, you were able to use judgement to be able to keep the situation from being even worse.

That being said, I do think that there are boundary issues that you must address. Your boundaries or lack thereof has not made you responsible for your wife(s) betrayals. To the contrary, they own those actions and any consequences of those actions. You did not have a choice in whether they sought to fulfill their needs outside of the marital vows. You only choice is to now decide whether or not you can recommit to the marriage and make it even stronger than it has ever been or whether it is time to move forward with you life. Either decision is yours and yours alone. You are fortunate to have a wife that understands that her actions may result in her losing what she really loves...you but I see her already respecting your choice regardless of what that choice is. That doesn't mean that if she disagrees with your choice that she shouldn't do whatever is possible to continue and try and salvage your marriage. I for one will urge her to follow MB principles in doing that because I am a believer. I am an affair survivor and a better person today not because my wife chose to have an affair but because I made decisions in my life upon learning of her betrayal that allowed me to recover personally. After I got on track to personal recovery, the marital recovery was much easier.

I really believe that many of the comments that were made particularly in regard to whether or not flirting is an inherently evil thing for married people was not so much of a slam on you and your wife personally but was many MB'ers absolute conviction that since this is always one of the precepts to an affair, regardless of the nature of the flirt. MB treats all precepts to an A much like AA treats alcohol. You can't get drunk without alcohol so just prevent the opportunity from arising as a principal defense. You can't have an affair without things occurring first like mutual adoration, plutonic touches, etc. so the best defense for an A is just don't do them period.

I hope that you will continue to seek resources from all sources including MB in your personal recovery. This may be a little unfair but I believe that the number one priority for you at this point is to ensure that you are able to have a complete personal recovery and move forward with your life regardless of your decision on whether or not to stay married to your current spouse. I am not a believer that you should make that decision for the benefit of the children or for your WW or anyone else but you. If you make the right decision for you, in the long run all the others involved will benefit.

I would suggest a non-MB recovery tool in addition to those already suggested. Torn Usunder by Dave Carder is available in Christian bookstores and on places like Amazon. There are some differences in approaches between his and Harley's and many similarities. I thank god everyday for this forum and the resources provided by the Harley's...but some of the things were just too brushed over for me to accept and complete my personal recovery. Torn Usunder allowed me to see another point of view and ultimately come to some resolution with the issues.

The value of this forum for me is that we have many different points of view and almost all of them have some validity to them. ML is one poster with whom I somewhat disagree with more often than not however I have immense respect for her point of view. We just see things differently...not that she is right and I am wrong or vice versa...just that all of the things that make her and I different influence our thought processes to make the focus different. She has already stated that she is a recovering alcoholic and has substantial creditentials with regard to AA principles as well as MB principles. I have seen her work wonders with many here whom not only have to deal with an A but an addiction of some type. Problem is that while neither you or your wife may have any real issues with alcohol, she has heard the same things over and over from many here and I am sure on the circuit from those who have serious problems.

Early on after D-Day, I also stated that I was gone from this forum and that I had posted my last post. That was about 200 posts and one year ago. Early on I was frustrated sometimes with the advice that I got from others here. Often it was because it was coming from a poisoned BS who had never really had a personal recovery and wanted to poison my chances for that with his/her own misery. I still don't have much use for those posters and am not afraid to call those out when they spew more of their poison. But as I reflect, a lot of my frustrations came when some poster, with good intentions and only knowing part of the whole picture, kind of hit the nail on the head all too often. Not saying that this is the case with you but just try and realize that for those of us that have been around a little while...we have seen and heard the fogspeak many times over and usually the first thing for us to be able to help those people is to work through the fog, rationalizations and half truths before they can really start to work on their own marital or personal recovery.

NT

NT,

Thank you. I hope Jason reads that. Last night I told him that I wouldn't post anymore. That I would try to find a different site. He told me to stop saying things that I thought he wanted to hear.

I woke up this morning and read the new posts and found them helpful.

What I need now is a book or something to help me find out why. Do you or anyone eles out there know of one.

Thank you,
Jessica

Jessica, the best book I have read for the Wayward is "After the Affair" by Janis Abrahms. She does an awesome job of getting into the whys for the WS and gives the BS POV as well.

Thank you very much.

Jess:

I understand that it is hard...it is even harder for a BS to try and understand how that could have happened. But the process is for both of you to try and understand and accept what happened knowing that you never get a re-do but implementing measures to ensure that history is not repeated by either one somewhere down the road.


I am not sure that this will be much comfort but those feelings of sickness most likely won't go away for a while. The good news is that when the emotional high/low is taken over by literally physical sickness symptoms, it probably means that you are no longer just skimming the surface of all of your feelings and now are really getting down to the dirty work of recovery and ownership. My wife occassionally has those same feelings. At first they were just purely emotional...she felt bad or she felt guilty, but when we really started from the bottom on our rebuilding process was when those guilt, shame, digust feelings manifested not only emotionally but physically as well. Having an affair is a shameful, disgusting business that anyone with any moral fiber is sure to fell guilty about. That is the bad news.

The other good news is that I really believe from your posts that you are ready to dig down however deep it takes to understand why you allowed yourself to be put in this position. Taking that step allows you to start your personal recovery. If you really work hard at applying all MB principles, regardless of the ultimate outcome of your marriage, you will find that like most other WS you are a worthy, good person that has the capacity to share true love and intimacy with someone...hopefully with Vash, but as I said on the other post, that is his choice, not yours.

I think you are probably closer to understanding the why of the affair than you may realize. All women are vain as they age (ducking for the incoming 2x4's) and most would rate admiration as one of their most important EN's. Personally, I have found that most women have much more wholesome beauty in their more mature years (40+) than they ever had in their hard body, pre-children years. Surprisingly, I think that if you took a poll of men who had some maturity to them, a majority would agree with this. But the media and society has convinced us that beauty is reserved only for the young. I have found in learning about affairs that almost all women who get involved in an affair have an unmet need for admiration or have low self esteem or both. Those especially vunerable seem to be the 30 something that has a very successful husband and seemingly everything in the world to be thankful for but inside yearn for some undivided attention and admiration. Because their husband is often so involved with his success, and then you have kids that have to be carted around, and ballgames and bills, etc. the wife who once was so proud of the head spinning attention that she used to get prior to marriage and affairs starts to at least subconsciously think that she will never get attention again and that her lot in life is just to be a mother who is best when she doesn't rock the boat and unheard from. They ASSUME that their husband cannot fill that need for them or no longer wants to. After all, the media portrays the successful husbands lot in life to be winning over the young office secretary and just drudging through their home live as an existence, not a life.

Most FWW ask for that need to be met by their husband but once again with the kids, the job, the bills...the husband listens but doesn't hear them. That confirms to the soon to be WW just what she thought, that she is no longer a sex object to her husband, just a live support system for a vagina and a mother to their kids. There is no romance, no excitement, etc. The door is now opened for an affair to happen. Doesn't matter if you were the preachers daughter or the class slut in high school, you are equally vunerable to an affair at this point.

You asked if you could have confused the OM actions as that of a friend and not a predator. Yes, absolutely you could have seen his actions as that of a friend...a friend that wanted to ultimately get down you pants. I was sitting on the porch the other night and watching a big spider that had built a beautiful web in just a day. The spider is just like your friend. He was their for a joke or comfort or admiration when you needed him. In the spider web, along come a fly and after a long day of work rolling around in horsesh*t decides to rest his weary wings for a while. The spider was there, continuing to ready her web. The fly (you as the affair target) lands on the edge of the web and just sits for a while. The spider sees the fly and acts like everything is normal, maybe the fly even thought about how beautiful the web was. Maybe the fly even kind of liked the danger of being close to the spider without getting caught. Who knows for sure but the fly flies off the web, makes a b-line U-turn and flies right into the middle of the web. Two minutes later and the spider not only had the fly completely under wraps in the web but was starting to consume it. The moral of the story...beware of the spiderwebs in life, they may look beautiful but in reality are designed to feed the spider.

You have already admitted that at least ten times prior to the consumation of the affair that your flirting went across the line. You also admitted that you liked how it felt. Regardless of why you liked it, you were allowing the OM to fill your emotional needs every time you landed on his spider web. You were engaged in an emotional affair long before this turned into a one night stand. Perhaps the introduction of alcohol was just the nerve deadener that you needed in order to make the b-line U-Turn right into the center of the web. Tough medicine, I know but something that you really need to think about and discuss with Mr. Vash.

At some point, you will need to share what your most important emotional needs are and how that Mr. Vash can fill those needs. If he would have been filling those prior to the A, perhaps it would have taken more than just a few drinks to convince you to jump into the middle of OM's beautifully woven spider web. Is it his fault that he wasn't filling those needs prior to the PA? Partly it was his fault and partly yours. Did you tell him that you had those needs? Did you tell him how it made you feel when others showed you the attention that you craved? That is where radical honesty comes in to all of this. Too bad that I didn't find MB just shortly after I got married many moons ago. If I had of, I very well may have prevented my wife allowing herself to cross that line because I would have been able to identify what needs were not being filled and fill those for her. Does that justify her having an affair? Nope. Does it shift part of the blame of the affair onto me? Nope. Do I have to recognize that I was just as guilty as her for creating the environment where an affair was not only possible but likely for one of us? Absolutely. But I wasn't able to get to this point until that I was well into the recovery process.

My best advice to you at this point for both your personal and marital sake is as follows:

1) Study the emotional needs questionaire found on this website. Identify what needs you got filled from OM that your husband didn't leading up to the A. Also identify what his most important needs are and work your butt off to try and fill those for him. This is the best way that a WW can show to her BH that she wants to be a different person than the one that started an A.

2) Continue to be radically honest with him about everything. There are still some things he wants to know and understand. He has to process what has happened to him (again) and what led you to that inflection point...the point where you decided that you were willing to risk it all for a fling in the hay with your OM friend. If he hadn't of caught you in the act, would you be continuing to see your OM now? Before you answer that you have to really dig deep and honestly understand that the sex in this A was the inevitable end of your EA that started while you were perfectly sober.

3) Continue to assure him that you will do whatever in order to save your marriage. I can tell that your posts are from your heart and that this was not an exit affair and that you do love your husband. I can tell that and I have never even met you or seen you. Your husband can tell that as well and that is the only reason why he hasn't kicked you to the curb already. But going through his mind, a million times a day is how could someone who felt that way about me risk it all in order to be with someone else. He knows, you know and I know that alcohol was just a contributing factor to let the guard down. It really has nothing to do with the decision that you made before that night to get a little closer to the Spider's web. You have to be there to assure him that you both can make some changes that will prevent that from happening again. Sometimes the best assurance that you can give him is just being there to comfort him through his undescribable pain right now.

4) If he asks, you answer. I read Mr. Vash's post about the very unique action that only you two do and he wants to know if you did it with OM. I can honestly understand where he is coming from and think that he believes that therein lies the distinction between whether this was just an accident or as Mr. G says just the train wreck that started to derail many days, weeks, months even years before it finally came off the tracks. I don't think that Mr. Vash will find that distinction once he knows the answer to this question and you may not be able to even answer it, but in order for him to start his recovery he must know you are an absolute open book...willing to bear your soul to him for a chance to make it up. Once he starts to believe that you are withholding nothing and working towards being all you can be in your marriage, the sordid details become less important.

For me personally, I wish that I knew less than I know. But it was impossible for me to get to this place without first knowing that there was not another major revalation just around the next bend. I had to accept that another man had sex with my wife...period. Does it really matter whether that sex was in missionary or 69? But once that I was convinced that she would tell when I asked...I quit asking...if for no other reason than I really didn't want to know the answer and knew that I would if I asked.

Keep fighting this battle regardless of the temperment of Mr. Vash. He will have his highes and lows through the process, nothing you or anyone else can do to change this...just be there for him and support his decision regardless of whether that is to stay or go but understand that if he decides not to continue working on his marriage and you want to stay in that marriage, applying MB principles and fighting for that marriage will make you a better person even if it doesn't save the marriage.

NT

Mrs. Vash...still trying to get you to respond to my posts. I think we can help you find the "why" but I will wait until you are ready to respond.

nottoday, Jess, and Mr Vash

I think the explanation of the "why it could happen" that nottoday provided had alot of truth. I can feel the assimilated wisdom, learning, responsibilities and pain that was expressed. This post is very helpful and right on the $ for steps to take now.

I don't know if the pain is multiplied in LTA's (like my fww's) but many have healed from far worse situations than this.Time and knowledge are your friends. Try not to act in haste and repent in liesure. penaltybox

Mortarman,

I'm sorry. I did read your first post this morning. It was one of the reasons I stayed with this fourm. So you asked for it. Here it is.

I have been friends with OM for about 2 years. We worked together for a while. Stayed in touch threw mutual friend of ours.

We always flirted. It's the kind of interaction that we shared. He would say the stupidest stuff to me and it would make me laugh.

He made me feel good. I'm not sure why. I guess it was the way he said thing. It didn't cross the line until about a month ago.

We would myspace each other and after a party one night I myspaced him and did my whole flirty thing and his responce to me was just as flirty but it had an uncomfortable edge to it. He had carried it to far. Instead of telling my husband I deleted it and tried to convince myself that it was still harmless flirting. It wasn't the same. It made me feel uncomfortable at the same time I liked it. I knew at that point it was wrong. So the next time I saw him was at a football get together. That is when the A happened.

As for how I felt about my husband at the time. My H has always made me feel like the most beautiful woman in the world. We are having some money problem at this time. Nothing to major. It had us both stressed to the max. He felt like our lives where a wreck. Everything about them. I told him that it wasn't true. So I doubled my efforts and tried hard to make sure that his house wasn't a wreck. It made him feel better. We had a wonderful sex life. We where great friends. I just love him. No big problem at thst time other than money.

I know the answer is some where inside of me. I need to ge to it. Thank you for all the help.

Jessica

Nottoday:

You Rock!

Your post to Vash is amazing, and I think it isn't the first time you have had to post it in similar form to either a WS or BS. I was the WS and your description of the steps needed to recover a M is right on.

Vash: You just described the anatomy of an A to a "T" You may have had to "dance" for two years to consummate, but it was the OM's goal. You stepped carefully on the Spider Web until the OM pounced. And you knew it was coming, you had the myspace posting announcing his intentions. The details are not important, the intent was there, and you knew it. The next time you meet, too much drinking and money troubles drop your defenses and the EA becomes a PA. Your EA started anywhere from 12- 18 months before the actual ONS occured.

Now, none of the above is to be critical of you. Where you stand in the road now, you can see the path you took to get here. You can probably recognize the forks in the road that caused you to get so far away that the A happened. It took you 2 years to get to the EA, it only took me six weeks, but it went on for 4.5 years. But, you can review your road and find the forks and what was going on in your life at that time to identify the problems, concerns, issues that led you up the A road and not the M road. That is where the rebuilding blocks of your M can be found.

Some great posts by others here and you should heed what they have said. I would like to take this in a methodical kind of way. So, what I want to do is not so much tell you what happened or tell you what to do, as to help you figure this out yourself.

You see, you know what happened. You know what you did is wrong. You knew it before you did it. You knew it while you did it. So, we are going to figure out the "why" here. Okay?


I hope you have read the Harley stuff on this website. His books...his articles. I hope you understand that these two paragraphs tell me that what I said about you and your husband is right. That you are NOT unique!! Have you read all of the stuff here? Do you understand the love bank, and emotional needs? Do you understand how people that were committed to a person, all of a sudden fall head over heels for someone else? This is KEY to understanding the "why."


He was meeting at least one emotional need. Have you heard that adultery is like any other addiction? That is why Dr. Harley treats it like an addiction. When another person meets emotional needs (making deposits in yoru love bank), he may eventually make enough deposits to make you want to know more. Even though your rational mind knows it is wrong...and deep down, you know you shouldnt do it. But the addiction just gets stronger as he feeds the bank. As was said above...this didnt happen at a football game a week ago. Think on this a second, okay? When did the affair begin?


This pretty much answers my question. It began with the flirting. The reason it felt good was that he was meeting an emotional need AND you were doing things that werent proper. You were going to the edge, seeing how close you could get without "going too far?" Right?


Right here is where it turned for the worse. Had you shown this to your husband, it id doubtful that this would have happened! This goes to the Harley principle of Radical Honesty. Please read up on it.


Wow! You just posted what EVERY addict says. They hate the drug, but like the way it makes them feel. They know it is wrong, but are drawn to the drug anyway. You think maybe Dr. Harley is right about this addiction thing?


I knew it was wrong...and at this point, I did it. Let me ask another question. Could it be that you knew the flirting, etc was wrong all of the time...but you played the boundary game...but at this point, he had crossed the last boundary with his MySpace post? Could it be that once you had realized you were in trouble, it was too late to stop it?


I believe you...and so does he. But....I want you to think about this very hard because after figuring out how this guy so easily blew through your boundaries, I want you to be critical of yoru marriage. I want you to think about those emotional needs, and why you soaked up the ones this guy was meeting. And look at those needs, and describe to us how your husband was doing in meeting them. BE HONEST!!! By understanding this, you will understand how to improve your relationship...and your husband will feel empowered. By staying with the "we had a great relationship, I screwed up, who knows why" defense of this, then he will nto have answers...and always will feel insecure. And so will you!!


Jessica...the answer is very evident here. It isnt deep inside. Dep inside, you love your husband. Deep inside, you knew this was wrong all along. This isnt a deep-inside kind of thing. This is actually a very rudimentary, surface kind of thing.

Look...you are NOT defined by this action. You will be defined by what you do with it. We all fail at times. Sometimes they are BIG failures! It isnt the failure that defines you...it is what you do with that failure.

I know you want to figure this out. Some of the questions above are meant to help you see this. Those of us that have been thru this...especially the former wayward spouses (FWS) on here, can see exactly what the issues are. And as your husband pointed out...we dont know you.

But we do know about marriage. And adultery. And its causes. Satan has been using the same worn out tricks since the beginning. And we continue to fall for it.

As you realize all of this, you will finally exclaim "it was that simple? I fell that easily? it was that obvious?" Yes, Jessica...it all is that simple.

So is the solutions. Many on here have heard me say this time and again...but you both are about to learn the difference between simple and easy. Figuring this out will be simple...but not easy. Moving forward will be simple (there are steps to recovery on here you both should read), but not easy. You will find the road to a marriage you never though possible will be simple, but it will not be easy.

So, let's get the answers to the questions above. Let's get you and your husband knowledgable as the rest of us have had to...in the ways of marriage and adultery.

You two are actually in a great place right now. You have a chance to really do something here that will change your marriage into somethign that is rock solid and something you would have never gotten were it not for this mess.

But first you have to understand all of this. I look forward to your responses.

Some great stuff by Mortarman. I would like to supplement and perhaps reinforce some of the things he said.

I had mentioned in my last post to you that Vash and you are merely a simple “textbook” case of infidelity. Although I sure don’t mean to trivialize your experience I suggest that it is very important to both of you to understand that almost ALL acts of infidelity cover very little new ground. It is because of this that the marriage builder concepts are so apropos to recovery. Keep this thought in mind as you travel, as it will provide a bit of comfort to know that thousands and thousands of couples just like Vash and you go on to not only survive infidelity but also actually build better marriages in the end. (Insert smiley face here)

In many cases of infidelity it falls to the betrayed spouse to initially do what is termed the “heavy lifting”. That means this: Often times the wayward spouse has developed a strong attraction (that strong attraction is referred to as “fog”) to the other person. That attraction or fog needs to be broken before any recovery can even begin to take place. Imagine how tough it is for the betrayed spouse to not only have absorb the horror of being betrayed but then to have to win back their spouse from the arms of another person. Uggh!

Happily, you have no significant fog to recover from. From your description you had a pre-existing attraction to this other man that was fueled forward from acts of ongoing flirtatious exchanges. Both you and your husband dismissed these flirtatious exchanges as harmless acts of fun. It likely created interest in your own marriage by adding a level of complexity that might have seemed a tiny bit dangerous and exciting. Now, here you are today, posting for help in an infidelity forum; you and a hundred other men and women just like you. The good news is that physical affair took place before any strong emotional attachment occurred, hence little fog.

Because you have no strong emotional connection with this other man it will fall to YOU to be the “heavy lifter” in the recovery. It will be you who pushes “radical honesty”, transparency, policy of joint agreement, discovery of yours and your husband strongest emotional needs, and whatever else might make up your “plan”. You are the straw that stirs the drink.

Because you are the heavy lifter does not mean that Vash has no role in this recovery. Initially, It is his responsibility to attempt recovery with you or without you. You have most certainly given him good reason to end this marriage and if he did no one would blame him. Still, he will have great responsibility should he elect to recover with you. Primarily once he makes the decision to stay then he jointly accepts responsibility for the success or failure of recovery. He will give you your report card grading you on your efforts. He will help guide you so that your efforts are not wasted and best allow him to feel safe and secure with the way you live your day-to-day life.

Have you read this site to understand the concept of the “love bank”? Your plan, his commitment to recovery and all that follows should be designed to aid in making “love bank” deposits. Always try to bounce the things you are doing or not doing off of this concept. It will pay dividends (no pun intended).

The Mortarman asked you to examine and identify your greatest emotional needs. He wants you to examine them because in almost all affairs the adulterers are stroking those needs and it feels goooood. Now here is the most important part of YOUR most important emotional needs, ready…..THEY ARE ALSO YOUR GREATEST WEAKNESS. What will you do with this information?

Before I close something you said popped out at me,



Although it may not have been your intention this simple statement is one of accepted defeat. If that is the way you feel, then why should he stay? If you say, “for the kids” I will respond by saying “that is not enough”. Examine the following statement as an alternative to yours,

“I no longer want to make my way without him. I love him to much to let him go.”

Both statements might be true but one is filled with despair and the other is promise. In its pure form love is a very selfish act. In great marriages this kind of selfishness makes huge love bank deposits for each partner. In dysfunctional marriages it makes huge love bank withdraws.

I hope you think about some of what was said,

Mr. G

Mr.G and Mortarman,

Thank you so much for your posts. You two are amazing. I just wanted to post that I will answering all questions later today. Thank you again.

Jessica

Jessica, a very good book for both you and your H now that I have read how this all went down is "Not Just Friends" by Shirley Glass. She addresses the flirting stuff too

Jessica,
I know you keep thinking of this as a one night stand, but in reality, you had been in an Emotional Affair with this man for some time. It progressed to a physical affair at the football party.

I think you perception of the affair needs to change before their can be healing for either of you. Your husband's perception needs to change as well. This was not a ONS. There has been too much leading up to it.

Now, as for flirting. As you are well aware of now, I hope, flirting can lead to much more and should nevr be practiced by either member of a marriage relationship. Flirting is never harmless.

By flirting you are fulfilling something inside of you that should only be fulfilled by your spouse. Take every precaution to aoid flirting with anyone but your spouse. Just in case you think I am way off base, here is the definition of flirting:
To make playfully romantic or sexual overtures.

I think this is something that might have happened sooner or later even without alcohol involved. You were getting in pretty deep. Alcohol only sped it up the situation.

Mrs. Vash,

Has it occured that the Why lies in your need to flirt?
What does it do for you that you cannot get from your H? Why this need.

Just a thought.

God Bless,

JL

Hello all,
Again I want to thank you all for your thoughts and advice. It has helped a great deal.

As for the it being and EA and a ONS I agree. Ididn't think of it as that until Mr.G and Motarman pointed it out. I am still looking into the "why" I needed it part. I think my first problem was that I always thought of an EA as when you told all your wants and needs and deep thoughts to another person. I didn't have thaqt kind of relationship with OM. So I thought it was safe. I see now I WAS WRONG.

So you all are correct. I do need to change my way of thinking. It is hard for me. I feel so dirty. I didn't htink anything was wrong with flirting. Now I see I was wrong.

Mortarman you asked me some questions and I will answer them. Weekends are very busy for me and I want to think about it and read some stuff. I would like to give you truthful answers. Thank you again for your help. You are great.

You too Mr. G........

Jessica

Take your time and consider the ideas that were suggested. The things you feel are far different from what your husband feels. It is one of the toughest things to understand and especially with respect to his and your sensitivities to what happened and what it means to your life together.

Time is your ally.

Mr. G

Outstanding post MM.

I am sorry for the both of you. It is such a crushing blow to the betrayed spouse. I assume that condoms were probably not used and even if they were it is now essential that the both of you get tested for STD's. These are the consequences of affairs.

I am glad that you are looking deep as to why you did this. Your previous messages indicates that it really was a matter of time based on all of the previous flirting. I also think that the environment where it happened made it so much worse. The fact that this the sexual act was committed while your husband was in the same house is extremely hurtful and demeaning to him especially that he walked in afterward. It is painful to imagine his humiliation and yours. Imagine if the roles had been reversed. Can you imagine how humiliated and disrespected you would be feeling today? I am glad you are looking for the answers but unfortunately the scar will always remain but hopefully fade over time. I wish you luck.

Thank you Bryanp. I have taken care of the STD part of your reply. It was one of the first things my H demanded of me.

Also you are correct about hte humiliation. It is an unforgivable act compounded by the fact that I did it with him there. I hope that some day his pain will fade. With lots of hard work on my part.

Jess

Having a hard day....

My H is going out. Just for awhile to play pool and meet up with a friend of ours. I am the WS so I have know right in feeling this way. I still can't help it.

I printed up the quizes from this site. Tonight when our kids go to bed I'll work on them.

It just hurts we had a pretty good weekend. He actully told me he loved me on Saturday night. I was calling him on my way home from work like I always did. We chit-chatted and when we where getting off he said"Bye Baby I love you." It felt like the first time. I didn't know how to react so I told him I loved him to. He said" DOn't tell me that".

That's when I realized he said it out of habbit. It hurt so much. I can't imagine the pain I am putting him threw.

I still have great hope that our love is stronger than the hurt and with a lot of hard work we'll get threw this mess that I've created.

Jessica

wvg2- you are right, it is almost impossible for a WS to understand the depth and intensity of the hurt that infidelity causes. No point really in trying to describe it to you, just know that it's much deeper and much more involved than you can know without yourself being on the "receiving end." Know also that it's worse for your husband because he lived the nightmare once (7 times over if I remember correctly) with his previous wife.




I would disagree with this "habit" statement. He DOES love you or he would not still be with you. In fact, he loves you despite the enormity of the pain. But he is not sure that "love" is enough. In addition, the vital component of any good marriage, TRUST, has been shattered and though he still loves you and is still with you, I'd bet heavily that in his mind he is asking himself if he can ever trust you again. Trust can be rebuilt, but it will take a LOT of time and effort on your part. "Blind trust," however, is probably gone for good.

When he said, "Don't tell me that," I'd also bet that I know what he meant and why he said that to you. No one commits adultery if they truly love their spouse. You may love him now, in your mind, but the day you chose to commit adultery you did not, it's as simple as that. He doesn't believe, or trust, you right now, so he does not want to hear "I love you" from you until he is sure you mean it. I told my wife NOT to say "I love you" until she MEANT it, for much the same reason. In essence, you have to earn the right to say "I love you." It may not seem "fair" to you, but it IS reality and it IS what he is going to "require" from you.




Jessica, time will tell. But here's one "key" you might want to think about. "Love" is an action verb. "Saying" ILU is meaningless right now. It is action that will say ILU and add meaning to the words.

If you haven't done it yet, study the "Love Bank" concept and the "Needs" that each of you have. Understand what HIS needs are and how you can meet them with actions, not just words. Time, and consistent actions, will begin to refill the "Love Bank" and begin to rebuild the trust that has been shattered.

Is "love" enough?" I can't answer that for you. I've read nothing about Faith being a part of your lives, so I'm guessing that you will have to each "go it alone." If that is so, I am concerned for your husband because he has chosen to remove himself from the forum and has a very large distrust or bias against help from this sort of source. Granted, I'm not too big on "Group Therapy" either, but what IS on this system are a lot of people who have the "practical" knowledge gained through the "school of hard knocks." In the infidelity arena, especially recovery from infidelity, EXPERIENCE with the actual problem from people who have been "through the fire" is, in my humble opinion, vastly superior to those who "counsel" from book knowledge. That's not to knock trained counselors, it's just to acknowledge that people who have experienced the "nuclear devastation" of adultery and "lived to tell about it" have a storehouse of practical experience they earned "the hard way."

Regardless, you (and your husband if he chooses to "listen in") will have to sort through the various comments and advice to determine what is applicable to your marriage and what is not. None of us is able to "know" either of you personally, so all that can guide comments and advice that is offered is what either of you choose to talk about and/or reveal.

God bless.

Thank you,

I have been trying to show my love in every way he will allow me at this point. I think you are right on target about my saying it. I think it may hurt him more. It's just how I feel. I don't think that you stop loving your spouse when you have a A.

Then again how could I have loved him and hurt him so deeply. This is so confusing.

I took the emotional needs quiz. Should I let him read it? At this point he isn't interested in taking it.

My H said to me today that I should of known what I needed before this all happened. He's right of course. I can look back now and see where I went wrong.

I don't want to come off sounding like I was the victim here. That if he would have done this or that I never would of had the A. It just doesn't sit well with me. I may be looking at this all the wrong way. I truly thought we had a strong marriage.

Thanks again for your post.
Jessica

I think you are looking at it the right way when you are looking into yourself to find the reasons you behaved like this. As you learn your own motivations and see where you went wrong, it will help you to avoid doing this again.

You are also doing right by showing your H that you love him in your actions in every way he will allow. I wouldn't push the issues of having him read your quiz or to take any quizzes for himself. Allow him to choose his own recovery methods and to proceed in his own schedule.

It seems you did have a strong marriage. I believe you can have that again. It will take a long period of recovery and readjustment to get things back the way they were.

I dare say that some of the greatest loves ever, populate these pages yet they all have the common thread of infidelity. I think you and your husband will find out that a “strong” marriage is one where you understand how “fragile” it can be.

Because you (and your husband) did not understand the basic weaknesses that are inherent in ALL relationships you inadvertently left yourself open to an affair. What are those basic weaknesses? Well, let us examine your most important emotional needs and it is there you will find where your weaknesses are. Without knowing it you gave this other guy permission to press your buttons that were likely grounded in what you thought was “harmless flirting”.



The following analogy is used often to describe how affairs can progress from very apparently innocent dialog to the final act of infidelity:

Frogs that are cold-blooded creatures would never jump into a pot of boiling water. However, that same frog would not hesitate to jump into a cool pot of water. The frog would happily play in the water without a care. If someone turned the heat under the pot the temperature would begin to rise. The frog being a cold-blooded creature would not perceive the rise in temperature and would eventually boil to death without an idea what was happening. Affairs are similar in that sometimes a person doesn’t realize that the temperature in the pot is rising until it is far too late.

Your husband’s assertion that you should have known these boundaries and been able to resist the affair is indeed a consideration that you must carefully think about. You see, for him the difference between “right and wrong” is all to clear. But you were there and it happened to you and you know things are not so simple yet I still suspect that you are filled with remorse and your burden seems no less heavy. Refer to the story of the frog, you didn’t see it coming until it was too late.

Last thing; for your husband one of the most important things he will come to realize is that is the importance to know who you really are and what you really mean to him as a partner. He now knows what you were at the time of the affair but what is really important is who are you NOW. Who is the person that your husband is married to NOW, not before but NOW? You of course can tell him, but showing him is so much more effective.

The experience of an affair is life altering. You have made a mistake but the mistake does not necessarily define WHO YOU ARE. Who you are NOW will be determined in the days, weeks and months that follow. How will you show him who you are, how, how, how?

Mr. G

Jessica and Vash!!

Hi!! I read your story and couldn't help but to reply. I have been around the site for a while now, but very rarely post for the same reason that Vash stopped posting...

I have gotten some very encouraging and positive replies from some. But for the most part, I wonder if this site aimes towards the BS. Even though I have been both, I think once you 'betray' the 'betrayed' is somehow washed away. maybe rightfully so...who knows!!

But I just wanted to let you know and Vash know that you aren't alone. That there are many of us that also fear the negative replies that we may receive, and I give you 'kuddos' for having the courage to let yourself out there and taking that risk!!

Fullofdoubt

FullofDoubt,

I dare say that you still do not understand the "why" of the posts that you are talking about. While there have been some out-of-bounds posts on this website, they are the rarity. And nowhere on this thread was anything "negative" or meant to hurt anyone.

The folks that were posting to these two (and I would surmise...to you on your thread) have years of experience with this. We have heard it all! We also know how BSs and WSs act and react in certain circumstances. It almost always goes the way that it always goes!

So, when a WS might be justifying...they get a stern talking to. Why? Do you understand "why?" It is because the WS has already been living in a world not based in reality. They need a wake up call. They dont need a pat on the back...or a "oh poor you...it's okay...everyone is human." Blah, blah, blah. Almost every WS will try to play the victim...and try to justify the unjustifiable.

This website is not just for BSs. But it seems that way because most on here are BSs. Now think critically for a minute. Why is this? Why are there more BSs on a marriage building website? It is because the BS is interested in the marriage...the WS is not! Not until they become a FWS are they considered a partner in the marriage. So, it stands to reason that those that want to save their marriage come to a marriage building website. Right?

But WSs are welcome. They are welcome because they need the help and support. But that doesnt come with making them feel good or understanding their "love" for the OP. That is nothing but enabling! Dr. Harley calls this adultery thing an addiction. So we treat it like one.

You know, we constantly get new posters on here (or relatively new) that chime in as you do when we go to help a WS. It is because they truly dont understand. And it is obvious that you do not either. I am not saying that in a mean way. I am saying that you do not understand fully what the issue is and what is going on. You dont understand the "why."

Enabling a WS by saying "they are mean..they will beat you up...I understand how you feel" will NEVER help them.

Have you read the thread in the last week? Have you seen Mrs. Vash has already stepped out on the road of introspection? Can you see that thru all of the guidance (and yes, sometimes a butt kicking) that she is making all of the right steps to help recover her marriage and to figure out the "why" of all of this.

So, please. Sit down and learn about this stuff. Invariably, those that come in as you have...almost always come by later on (after they see this work) and say "you know, I was wrong. You guys werent beating her up. I jsut didnt understand."

Sit back and learn. Just like the rest of us had to. And maybe have a little trust that we are trying to help those like Mrs. Vash and Mr. Vash. And we are using the principles that have been used for so long...to a great deal of success.

I have to say I agree with you Mortarman. Not only do I not deserve to feel like the "victim"in all this. I am not the victim. My family is. My childeren there father. Those are the victims.

I have tried so hard not to do the "poor me" thing. Even when I wanted to. It will not get me anywhere. I brought this situation on myself and I will do the work it takes to pull our family out of the mess I created.

You are a wise man Mortarman. I very much like to read your post. You and others on this site have helped me a great deal. For that I thank you.

The fact that you all can even be kind to a WS is a wonderful gift. Thank you.

I do have one question. When do you get to be a FWS. Does Mr.Vash decide? Or is it when the person(me) figures out the "why"?

Jess

You get to use it the second you begin to "walk-the-walk".

Mr. G

I have decided to stick around this place. After alot of debating weather I would post again or not this last post by you Mort decided it for me. You have implied twice now that all the people that responded on this thread have replied in the way they did out of care and concern. I want you to read the below post and say that again... This post below, may have started that way, but it ended in a childish 3rd grade attempt at teasing and goading.

I am here mostly becasue Dr Harvey is an F'ing genius. I come to this post to remind myslef that my wife is trying. I have found stuff that Mr Goodbar, Nottoday, and you Mort to be extremly helpful along my path for self recovery. However, not everything that Everyone says on this site is correct for everyone or even helpful for that recovery. Pages 2 - 4 of this very post are crap. There are a few thing in those pages that are slightly helpful for the situation, but for the most part the posts are personal attacks, not forceing Hes or I into a realization.

People are in the end just people. No matter thier expierences or knowledge, they are still falable. I appreciate your honesty and think you are one of the main contributers to helping Jess on the self realization road, but don't expect me to believe that a high post count and a few years of recovery on this site makes someones advice pertenant or even helpful....

Again though a very personal thank you for your help to Jessica.

I will probably be posting for my own help sometime in the future, however, I want to read all the articles and a couple of the books first.... I am more of a self help kind of guy and want to understand my part if any before I make my own post here.

Thank you all,
Vash

Jessica, try this one "for size" and see how it fits with your ruminations:

When does one become a Former flirt?


Here's some other things to think about;

Is flirting with someone as if one were NOT married, but single, conducive to a committed and exclusive marital covenant when the bride and groom have voluntarily chosen to "give up" the single lifestyle?

Only the individual can determine what their own STANDARDS of behavior will be. Only the individual can determine what their own BOUNDARIES will be and what the consequences will be for someone who willingly, or unknowingly, violates your personal boundaries.

You keep looking for the "why." Why not start with what you currently accept as your own Standards. They will tell you a lot about the "why," imho.

God bless.

Vash,

You got it right; there is good stuff here. I think you are smart enough to filter out the stuff that does not fit. Like you noted, it’s regular people who post here.

You are on the right road my friend. No voodoo or black magic, just real tried and proven methods that help couples rediscover what they can mean to each other. What’s so bad about that?

If you both want to recover then your success is virtually guaranteed. I know you are no stranger to infidelity and I suspect that you are a bit shocked as you look back at those experiences with new insights from this website.

Keep your chin up,

Mr. G

Vash,

I am extremely glad to see you here!! Please know that.

On your post...I do understand what you are saying. I didnt imply every post and everyone is always on track. What I said was that these people are here to help. I know those people you refer to...and some of them were the same ones that kicked my butt early on. You see, the BS can be as fogged out as the WS. I'm not saying you are...just saying I have been down your road.

Most of the vets here have little tolerance for justifications and victimhood. They have little tolerance for "but you dont understand...we are different." We have learned that those statements are basically crap! They are crutches used to help explain a painful situation and help them get thru. Unfortunately, these crutches never work!

And this is what these vets try to get the BS and WS to understand. I understand what you were saying about that post you extracted. And later, we can go into what I think really happened there. But for now, I jsut ask you to trust me that the intentions of most that have been involved have been honorable. So, let's just let that lie for awhile.

This is always true. Of anything in life. But be careful to discount things too early before walking them thru. You may find out later that they may have been right.


No. A high post count doesnt make a person an expert. The expert is Dr. Harley. I agree with you. But, I think if you also come to this with an attitude of "let me just talk and listen for awhile. Take in what is being said. See where it goes." Then you may have an easier time with this. I'm not saying accept something that isnt true. I am saying that sometimes, the truth isnt readily apparent...especially in the middle of the battle.


You are welcome. From just what I have read so far...and what you have said about her...I believe you are a lucky man, Vash. I know it may not completely feel like that right now. I know she is tarnished right now. But the fact that she is searching, is trying to find out the "whys" of this...that she is trying to make amends...says volumes about her character. There are some that commit adultery...and then keep right on doing it. We KNOW what their character and honor is!! Or what they dont have! But there are others that make a huge mistake...but then set out to make amends, to rectify, to learn. That is a person, deep down, with good character. A man or woman of honor. As I said Vash...you are a lucky man! Your wife has shown more honor and character in the last few weeks than my wife ever has.


I hope you do Vash! And I look forward to talking with you some more.

Foreverhers,

My H and I just had that talk yesterday. I told him that in hind site I could see where I went wrong.

Where in the beging of this post I stated that we where both flirts and it was okay.That we both new what was what. Well I was wrong.

The flirting on my part opened a door that should never have even been knocked at. I have seen the error of my thinking and am taking steps to fix it in myself. Flirting has become a second language for me. It is how I interact with men and women a like.

I went back to work this past week and was not flirting. It was a bit strange to have to think about everyhting before it came out of my mouth. I am willing to change what I need to change to make my life and that of my H and kids better.

I was not trying to imply that I was a FWS. I just wanted to know when the title got to change. I am not looking for an easy way out of the mess I have created. If I don't do the work nothing will change and I beleive I need to change my behavior and way of thinking.

Thank you for your thoughts.
Jess

I think you have come a long way especially with your understanding of the problems inherent in flirting. You may perceive it one way but the other person may perceive it in another way. Flirting also allows boundaries to be lowered where you start doing things because it is just in fun but each step leads to another dangerous step. Finally, I believe flirting with others is also in the long run seen by many as simply being disrespectful to ones spouse even if it is in fun. It sends various message on different levels that brings into question the character and integrity of the married person who is doing the flirting. This is just my opinion.

Jess and Vash,

I wanted to let you know that you are being prayed for. I have been reading your posts and I care. I realize i can not do much for you other than pray but perhaps knowing you are being prayed for is helpful too.

i hated the way this thread was going at the start, I am really glad it has become more positive and helpful.

Jess, I am a FWW and I want you to know I think you are acting very admirable. So here is a pat on the back for you. Yes, we made a mess of things, but you (and I) are owning up and making ammends. that is to be commended.

Vash, My DH like you choose to stay married. I am very grateful and impressed at my DH's commitment. I have learned much from him. I tell him he is my hero and the family's hero. You are too.

One final note about those here that post. We are just regular people, and all we can do is type words.

I truely believe the vast majority are typing from their hearts, hearts which happen to have scars.

sometimes someone attempts to put humor into their replies, because lets face it we can all benefit from a smile. but sometimes things are misunderstood, sometimes things are just poorly written, sometimes people are wrong, sometimes they are dead on.

whatever the case, i find that if I have a habit of reading with the intent to find use out of what was written, i get more benefit. sometimes something i read is clearly off base and not at all helpful. when that happens (and it does not really happen all that often anymore!!) i just let it go.

sometimes something that i read is hard to read because it is a truth i don't want to see. i don't let those go, because there is where the best growth can occur.

anyway the point is, take what helps you, try to read with the desire to be helped always in the front of your mind. i realize we all have a tendency to want to defend ourselves when we think something is being stated that is attacking us. just try not to see it that way. take what helps and leave the rest behind.

again, you are both in my prayers. Karen

Mr Vash,

I hope you stay and even start your own thread. Things people say on here are sometimes dead wrong, I give you that, but underneath it all there are lots of people with good hearts giving great advice.

Yes, this thread veered in the wrong direction for a while and focused too much on one thing. Here's my two cents:

Drinking: I believe you when you say it isn't a problem. I would say don't swear it off but be smart on its use. Having a glass of wine with your H over a romantic dinner should be acceptable. Or sharing a bottle between the two of you, as long as it doesn't become a regular thing, is ok. Moderation being the key. In your case, it unfortunately lowered your inhibitions enough to make you very susceptible to a temptation that was there before. When we're sober, we may think something and not act on it because we have the clarity of mind to say to ourselves that doing something will be wrong. Drunk, however, makes you act on impulse.

Flirting: you obviously came to the conclusion that it isn't harmless in a marriage, which is good. This is an absolute. It is a slippery slope.

Look, I'm a man. I may catch some flak for this from other men, but for one thing, we don't generally flirt harmlessly. We may not be conscious of doing it, but we definitely do it more with those we find attractive. I have a very strict standard regarding friends of the opposite sex while married. Radical honesty steps into the picture here. It's ok to have friends of the opposite sex, but interact with them when your H is around. Or do things with couples. Don't be alone with members of opposite sex (unless you're, for example, planning a party for your H with his best friend).

It's a fine line. But we're all human and we have God given hormones that sometimes override the brain and make us act on what we feel. There's 6 billion people on Earth. That's the case because sex feels good and we like it and we're one of the few species on the planet that do it for pleasure. That's why when you choose a mate you have to work on keeping that a pleasant experience exclusive to the one you're with.

We're all susceptible to temptation. Flirting is playing with fire. Mrs. V, you realize this. Does your H?

Thank you all. I'll take all the prayers I can. It means a lot to me.

My husbands flirting never was like mine. He is a friendly person. He will talk to anyone. That is one of things I love most about him. He has a female friend whom he is very close to. She has given him great advise in the past. I am not a big fan of hers. Though when he needs a sounding board she is there for him. I am coming to realize that my biggest problems with her where actully problems with myself. I would never have excepted my H flirting with someone the way I did. I made it okay in my mind because we where all friends. It was never okay. I think I have always known that other wise I wouldn't have spent so much time trying to convince myself and others that it was okay.

As for his flirting I will let him make is own decisions on that. We will talk about it I'm sure. As of yet it's me who is discovering what flirting did to me and my marriage.

Jess

Just a side note. Mr. Vashes female friend is someone he works with. He is also friends with her BF. They do not spend time outside of work together without me. I just don't want anyone to try and make his friendship out to be a bad thing.

If you're uncomfortable with it then he should do things to make you comfortable. He should limit his interaction with her at work and if he wants to bounce something off her or talk to her, then he should be able to do it in front of you.

Right now you're not quite in a position to demand anything from him, but you could bring this discomfort to his attention.

He doesn't realize how lucky he is to have a remorseful WS looking for advice. I would have done anything for my ex to feel as you do.

Thanks for the advise Papaof3. I'm sorry your marriage didn't servive the A. My H is still deciding. It is all very new.

My H did everything to make me comfortable with his friendship. It is a non issue. We have had her in our lives for years. Her children are a part of our lives. They don't have an inaporpriate relationship. I am not shy about telling it how it is to my H. He is lucky to have her. I am lucky he has her. She has saved our marriage more than once.

Jess

I'm sure you and your husband will declare someone is picking on you again, but your husband's friendship with another woman is inappropriate. Before you disagree, look at it this way:

She is meeting needs that you should be meeting. You should be his sounding board- not her.

Dr. Harley discourages relationships with the opposite sex when you are married - especially where personal relationship information is shared

Yes, you may be with them outside of work- but you are not with them during work. A huge number of affairs begin in exactly this way.

Read the book His Needs Her Needs and I am fairly certain you will see how this type of a relationship is not good for you marriage.

I am extremely encouraged by the progress Jessica is making. Just today she has started taking steps forward to admiting the "what went wrong" points... That will go along way in helping of my forgiveness for her.

MoveForward, I do not take any exception to your opinions, what I take exception to, is people who think they know how I am going to act when they have no idea who I am.

Since you brought it up, I will discuss it though. I am curently reading all of Dr. Harvey's material. I think you misread something. He does not say it is impossible for a man and woman to be friends, just that if there are problems inside of a marriage, these friendships are the first to be exploited.

I believe in this concept. Plus, I see where alot of people would see this about my friend and I. In fact more than one person has thought there were inappropriate things between her and I. I do not and have never hidden my feelings about this woman from my wife. This woman has saved my marriage in the past and her and her BF are helping me through alot of this current situation. I have helped her release her guilt as a mother about her childeren, I have helped her son through a career in the Marines, and her Daughter is our babysitter once a week as we go out on our date nights.

This friend is a registered marriage counceler. Just so everyone is clear on that. She has been through more counciling and read more books on this subject than I ever thought possible. She is a wonderful lady and will remain a true friend of me and my family forever.

I do understand everyones feelings about this however and I will gladly discuss it. I truley have nothing to hide in this and never have. I also understand my wifes uncomfort in the beggining of my friend and my's relationship.

I again am not saying anyone is wrong, I am however saying that there is nothing in this world that can map out 100% of any one person, if there was, there would be no war.

Thank you all,
Vash

Vash,

Here is a quote from the man himself.


It's here - http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5059_qa.html

It's one of the infidelity FAQ's. Have you read them? They are linked below in my signature

I have a good friend (same sex) who is a marriage counselor as well. Did you know it is unethical for her to see me as a patient? In fact, when I told her about the A, she referred me to a counselor and prayed for me.

Your wife has already said the relationship bothers her. Why in the world would you want to continue a relatiionship that bothers her?

Maybe in some way you sort of like the idea that you have a relationship that bothers her?

I am the betrayed spouse. I can tell you if my FWS ever said that I was in a relationship that bothered him, I'd make the choice of him over that relationship.

Let me present it to you in another way, Vash.

Your wife started out 'innocently' enough having a friend of the opposite sex. What happened there?

That is EXACTLY why it is discouraged.

Vash,

I have great female friends. I'll trust that what you say is true. What I encourage you to do, if you aren't already, is make your interaction with her very open. It is good you've tried to make her a friend with you W.

I completely understand the pain, anguish, and tempations that come at this time. You will and may be tempted to have a revenge affair. It's normal, I think. You may have a strong enough personality to resist the temptation, but just keep in mind that you may not be so strong all the time.

It's tough, obviously, since we don't know you and see your interaction, but this could easily become a thorn in your recovery.

Vash, count your blessings. You have been betrayed, yes. But you have a woman who is genuinely trying and I would have loved to see my ex have that kind of remorse and attitude. It's good to see you reading all these things and I hope you and the Mrs share in the ideas and concepts.

My guess is that in a year or two or even a few months you will have a marriage that others envy. You will come out stronger out of this, not weaker. Don't bail on this woman because of this one mistake. The lessons learned from our greatest failures can lead to our greatest successes. History shows this over and over.

Good luck. Start your own thread. A lot of us here know exactly how you feel. This is so fresh in your mind that I know how difficult and consuming the idea of your W with someone else really is. The things you held sacred and were exclusive to only you have now been violated. We understand this pain, especially as men. Our pain as BSs is different than that of BWs. There's many similarities, but some things are unique to men and to women.

Start your own. We can give you some help with things that have helped us.

I encourage you to read another, short, but very powerful book. It's "Man's Search for Meaning" by Victor Frankl. It was written in the late 40s and is only 156 pages long, but it is very powerful.

Vash,

I understand what you are saying concerning this woman. And I do believe you! Your wife probably does too. But I want you also to understand a marriage axiom that both of you need to adhere to. It is the Policy of Joint Agreement (POJA). Please read up on that on here. It is important!

Basically, the way spouses should look at it is this...if my doing something upsets my spouse, I will stop doing it. Plain and simple. Now, there should be a discussion. Maybe you like playing pool on Friday nights with the boys. But your wife doesnt like you doing that. do you jsut give up pool? Well, no. You two would sit down, discuss it. You would tell her about why you want to, what it means to you. She would tell you why she doesnt like it. Then you try to find a compromise that both can agree on (POJA). But until there is a compromise...there should be no pool playing!!

Understand? Your most important human relationship is with your wife. Not with your friends. Not with your family. Not even with your kids. Your wife must come first...always! If it means givign up a friendship...then so be it.

Again, I dont know if this is the case. Jessica stated she had had a problem with it. Maybe she doesnt now...I dont know. This is something you two must HONESTLY discuss.

Oh yeah...and compromise doesnt mean giving in. If Jessica says "its okay for you to be friends with her" and she doesnt really mean it...your marriage is in trouble. Please read up on POJA...it is a MUST!!!

Mrs. Vash,

From the sounds of your husband...it appears that you are doing well in this journey. Let's continue!

So far, you have seen where your stumbling block was (inappropriate relationships with men, flirting, etc). I think you truly can see where that leads. Remember what I said earlier? About the difference between simple and easy. As you can see...your fall was all so simple! Right?

Now, the next step is to address what needs this flirting and this guy was meeting. And make no mistake...he was meeting needs. I encourage both of you to take the Emotional Needs Quuestionaire and the Love Busters questionaire on this website. Then report back here and let's go thru it. Once you two address what your msot important needs are, what love busters you two are in the habit of doing. Once we know that, then you can then sit down and look at what needs this guy met. This will help you set boundaries for the future. It will also help your husband make sure he is meeting those needs in order to protect your love for him.

So, time to take the next step.

Thank you all for your concerns and advice. Mr. Vashes friend is just that a friend. They do not see each other out side of work without me. Her BF is with them when they go out to lunch 75%of the time.

I had trouble with the relationship in the beging because I was pregnat when they first meet and feeling fat anf gross. When he saw that it bothered me he ended it. Jump 3 years down the road she needed help with her oldest son. He wanted to join the military. My H helped him with this decision and helped her over come some of her fears.

He has always been honest with me as I have with my feelings towards her. I don't want to spend the next 10 posts explaining this. I don't feel attacked either. I understand where you all are coming from and if in 3 years I find I'm wrong I'll be back(if I'm not still here).

Motarman,

I took the emotional needs quiz. I still need to do the love busters. I feel like I am making some progress. I have talked to my H about it.

As I was growing up as a child I was very unattractive. Big qlasses, skinny, bucked teeth freckles. If you have kids you know it's tough to be an out cast. I didn't turn from ugly duckling into swan until I was about 18. At that point I realized the power of flirting and good looks. I don't think I ever learned to communicate with men. I have always been very shy and when I do come out of my shell I am very sassy. What I'm tryin gto get at is that as I have become older I need the reasurance from outside sources of beauty. I am still that ugly little girl nobody liked. My H has done so much for me in this area. He makes me feel like the most beautiful woman in the world. I always say to him it's because he loves me that he feels that way. That has always driven him crazy. I am coming to think that OM while telling me I was beautiful was feeling a need in me. I know he didn't love me and still he found me beautiful. It must be true.

This was hard for me to come to. I spoke with my H about it yesterday. I feel like it's the right track. Then I think that's so silly. Could this have truley happened because I am insucure about my looks? How shallow is that?

Anyway thatnks for reading my life story.
Jess

Wanted to address several things here....

BigKahuna: I read that. It on the "How to survice infidelity" page. I wanted to tell you that becasue it seems that when I say I read things here and believe in thier concepts no one seems to pay that any attention. This friend of mine and I, as has been stated several times, don't see each other outside of work. There have been a couple ocassions and my wife was right there.

Moveforward: I didn't say I was seeing her professionaly. In fact its funny, becasue its usually me giving her advice. Mort mentioned something in the above post that struck me. He said, soon my wife and I would have the kind of relationship that people would envy.... We already HAD that relationship.... My friend counstantly held my relationship up as the becon of perfection. Jessica's friends at her work would always tell her the same. Well I am here to say, that if I had the perfect relationship, and this is what happened... I would rather not have it.

Popa, and Mort:
Thanks for your encourageing words... I can see you guys get it. Just so we are clearing the air here, Jess knows everything. I am very upfront with her about my friend. In the beggining (3 years ago) she would get upset when we talked about my friend, now she knows that when I talk about her, I do so with the respect of friendship and concern. I can't remember who pointed out the "revenge affair" point, but believe me I am VERY wary of that. I do not compound problems... I am a problem solver.

In all reality, it would be nice to feel attracted to anyone right now. Not that I want to turn this into something 3rd gradeish, but I can't even seem to masturbate. Sex of any kind just is of no interest and really the farthest thing from my mind. In my mind, my relationship WAS perfect. I had the perfect woman for me that understood me and still loved me and wanted to be with me. I am not easy person to get along with, and so for me to find this, it was my ideal relationship.... I see everyone keep saying that this was a mistake, but to me that seems to trivialize everything that our marriage was into a word that can not possibly contain a one hunderdeth of the emotions of it.

Should I be in this thread anymore??? or should I start my own? I wanted to get more understanding before I did, but is it just about the emotions?

Thanks All,
Vash

Vash,

Seriously, start your own thread. Some things you just said I can completely relate to. I've felt everything you have just described.

I trust what you're saying about your friend. The question to ask yourself, and this is one only you can answer and don't have to explain to us, is this:

If you were single right now, would this friend be a candidate for more?

I ask because I have a friend like that. She's never been anything other than a friend, but now that I'm divorced, she's a possibility (way down the road).

It's just a thought.

As far as the sexual issues go, you're not alone and none of it is unusual.

I'm sure that one of the problems you described has to do with a problem regarding "images" in your head. You try to get into the moment, but those thoughts are then replaced by your w and this other man doing things and suddenly you lose desire and find you have issues in this regard.

This will pass. It takes a while, but it will. One thing that helped me, when I was in the middle of it all, was having sex with my w. It really helped me get those images out of my head, but it didn't eliminate them. It was sort of like reclaiming something that was once exclusive to you and you alone.

I may not be the best example, though. My ex and I had SF twice after I came home and that was it.

What I am sure you can relate to is the obsessive need to know details. This is where your W HAS to tell you EVERYTHING. I found something out well after things happened and it was like re-opening all the wounds that were starting to heal. This is where SHE needs to step up and give you all the details you want to know. Keep in mind that something may not come to her right away. Memory is funny that way. She might remember things later.

This is horribly tough. Seriously, though, forgive if you can. Forgiveness is a choice. It isn't something you're going to feel. It is something you have to choose.

Something to keep in mind is that most marriages deal with infidelity at some point. Odds of infidelity are higher than those of divorce. Getting through that, though, will probably lead to a stronger, better M.

You're getting right now what dozens of us here want to hear from our WWs or ex WWs. An apology. Remorse. A desire to get your forgiveness. Consider yourself lucky, under the circumstances.

Keep your chin up and start your own thread.

Vash:

Methinks that MrsVash is deflecting attention from her indiscretion when bringing up your relationship with your lady friend. The last 10-15 posts have been about your R with this woman and not about the steps to recover your M.

It is a platonic relationship, you have described it as such, we will leave it at that.

I would explore this: "I am not easy person to get along with, and so for me to find this, it was my ideal relationship...." What did Mrs Vash have to suppress in herself to "get along" with you?

Vash,
Start a new thread if you like or continue to use this one as Jess and yours “joint marriage counseling thread”.



You are so right. The sure horror of being betrayed by the very person you though was your primary protector can never be adequately described in words. The ONLY ones who understand the feeling are those who have lived it. I presume you feel like you have lost everything that means anything. How can sum this up by the word “mistake”. I fully understand all you are feeling and I am about to throw you a rope.

The word “mistake” has a much broader meaning when describing what happened to Jess as she progressively immersed herself towards that fateful conclusion. She and perhaps you too have begun to understand how the seemingly innocent behaviors of the two (her and the OM) were in fact dangerous preludes to an ever-increasing next step. The steps were small but deliberate in that each one stroked her need and desire for admiration. She made the “mistake” of not knowing or understanding what the continued gratification from the OM’s comments of her beauty, her wit, and her sexiness really meant. I suspect that she was open and flattered by his comments as they filled a very important need that she had. She indeed wanted more of this drug that seemed so safe. With the first touch it was really over for her. She was powerless to stop, as she was already addicted to these new feelings. Of course she knew it was wrong, she knew she had crossed the line but her intention was NEVER to hurt you as she thought that you would NEVER KNOW. Thus go the selfish rationalizations of a wayward spouse. It is the same story over and over and over again.

So consider what she did as a “mistake”. She is now becoming armed with the way that this “mistake” progressed and with that knowledge she gains the tools to “affair proof” herself. She has found that she is weak to the compliments that feed her need for “admiration”. Although you may have admired her more then anyone ever could it was the compliments of an outsider that most legitimized the very things that you have likely told her for so very long and she was swooned by them.

She may likely have other weakness that she has yet to realize and that is why it is important to understand “emotional needs”.

You may read the reasons and you may even understand them but it is most understandable that they offer you little comfort from the pain you feel. For that it will take time and patience. As each day passes a new Jess will be revealed to you. Each of you will study and contemplate what has happened and that work will pay both of you dividends as you come to realize how important you are for each other. You see, through the pain of this near tragedy the both of you are discovering what real love is. It is nothing more then the way you treat each other and that will make all the difference.

You mentioned that your acquaintances held your marriage in high regard and that with the infidelity you would rather not have it. Remember this, some of the greatest loves ever populate these pages and the only question that remains is, “will Jess and you be one of them?”

Please consider some of what I have suggested,

Mr. G

Lousygolfer,

I am not trying to deflect the blame or the post. I only brought up my H friendship to show the difference between our flirting styles.

I have and do take full responsibility for my A. I have a lot of work to do still. I also did say that I didn't want to address this issue anymore. It's not the cause of the A. My flirting and my friendship was.

I as well am not an easy person to get along with. My H has very strong opions on everything. As well as I do. One of the things we had a hard time with in the begining of our relationship was I felt like he was always trying to get me to change my way of thinking and vise-versa. Which was not the case. It took a few years for us to realize that we wanted the samethings and beleived in the samethings just got there in different ways.

So what I'm trying to say is if I have burried any part of myself I'm not aware of it. Thank you for your post.
Jess

Vash and his girl - here is a thread called 15 steps of unfaithfulness. Have a look and consider which step you are up to Vash.

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/sho...mp;Main=2868483

So, Mrs. Vash...what's the list of ENs? For you and Mr. Vash. List them out here and then we can discuss them.

And it sounds as if the need for Admiration is high on your list. Nothing wrong with that. But let's see what you come up with so we can narrow this thing down.

Get your husband to do the questionaires also so we can get a good idea where you guys are at.

Just to clarify, are you asking me if I am cheating now???

I am really getting tired of being insulted while trying to heal and move on. If you are trying to imply that I am, please keep your self as well as your opinions out of any thread of mine!

Vash

Vash:

Relax. Things are tough for you right now. Some folks on this site like to point out the flaws in thinking (I can!) that both BS and WS have.

As I stated earlier, you have a good friend who happens to be a woman. It's platonic, I can leave it at that. Some members of this forum will never have a member of the opposite sex as a good friend. That is thier choice.

I noticed that you are posting on other threads, welcome to the group. Your voice deserves to be heard. Your WW wants to make amends and she is here looking for help. Many BS never have that opportunity to have a WS who is engaged and actively searching for help.

This thread has taken many turns. Some of the threads on this site last for years. Usually it is because the original poster asks something that appeals to many and the thread survives. Sometimes, such as in HEARTSORES STORY, it's just great theatre and he comes back and spills it out on the stage and everyone wants to help, and he doesn't mind an occasional negative post.

This thread starts with "I AM AN ADULTRESS" Your wife used it as a confessional and exposed her A to all members of the group. After some negative comments about drinking and some other issues, it became quite combative. However, I could see changes in MrsVashs posts as she realized how the actions that she had taken created an enviroment for an A to occur. She realized these things from the posts of many people here. If she keeps exploring her thoughts and feelings here, there are a number of ways that you can end up with a strong and affair proof M.

So my last post pointed out the you were "difficult to get along with" and Mrs Vash says that she is as well. So we have a new place for this thread to go. Why are the two of you so difficult to get along with? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Thanks for your words LG. I just don't want this again to focus on something that I feel is not even remotley an issue. I know that some people will see that as a form of denial, and that maybe I don't know its a problem, but I would like toassure those people that I am activly involved in self evaluation on a daily basis. I have been to counceling and am going again.

Its funny, becasue I think I am hard to get along with, and Jess thinks she is. The funny thing is, that I don't really think she is all that hard to get along with. I can see where some people may have a hard time, but I think thats becasue she has a quirky sence of humor and is a very moralistic person (go figure huh). The important thing, is that she is not difficult for me to get along with... 2 days ago after reading my post about how I thought I was hard to get along with, she told me that I was one of the easiest people shes ever met to get along with.... That just made me laugh... and then I was a little sad.

I realized that the 2 people staring at each other at that moment, were not strangers at all. In fact we each know each other inside and out. That is one of the heaviest hits against my self confidence... it feels like I cheated on myself. This woman was more than my wife, lover, or best friend... she was literaly the Yang to my Ying... my other half.

I will probably start a new thread for myself soon. I just wanted to reiterate that appreciation I have for some of you... Jessica is on the path... and though I am pretty sure I know what the issue is, I would like her to figure it out and admit it to her self... In my opinion that is one of the biggest tools she lack that I'd like her to gain... self evaluation.

Thanks again all,
Vash

Welcome Mr and Mrs Vash.

So right now it sounds like the two of you are planning to attempt recovery.

I do think it's a good idea that you both have your own threads and perhaps one where you post mutually.

It is often the case that when a husband and wife post on the same thread it becomes a dizzying he said she said in which everyone gets lost in tangents and details and sadly the purpose and goals get lost as well.

To Vash...

As you might have suspected by now...there are many areas of life that have previously been unquestioned that may need to be examined and measured against a new standard.

For many people...certainly myself...prior to my H having an affair active protection of my marriage was far from the top of my priority list...it was simply a given that we would both be faithfull and everything would be fine.

As it happens we assumed to much and allowed several vulnerable points to exist unchallenged.

Retrospectively I can this this very clearly but only because I have had time to process, examine, argue, re-examine, and investigate over a period of years.

For example...the issue of flirting.

Well...it depends on how you define it doesn't it?

Are you communicating playfullness..romance...sex?

Any of those fit the definition and while two of them fit the bill for "affair breeding ground" one does not.

Similarly having "close friends" of the opposite sex...while it is not an imperative that this friend be an active threat to your marriage...it is certainly and undeniably a vulnerable area. No one here knows what boundaries you have in place as an individual..but we have interacted with literally hundreds if not thousands of hurting people...sometimes the betrayer..sometimes the betrayed...as a result of a series of events that include this common ingredient.

As you become more familiar with the material and Dr Harleys research in these areas and have the ability to make a judgement based on your acceptance or rejection of his experience and conclusions these hot button issues will likely seem less like a personal attack.

Posting to others and reading their stories will also help to give you an idea of what people mean when they are referring to common elements, familiar scrips, etc.

You will hear the same patterns over and over ad nauseum until you will find yourself able to play connect the dots and suspect an affair when one hasn't been admitted.

It truly is a shocker that there could be so many commonalities.

To Mrs Vash...

What puts you in the minority is that you came willingly, to find answers, and make changes, with remorse and humility while taking personal responsibility.

Well done, you are in good company.

Vash:

THen stay here on this forum.

As silly as it sounds, I thought I had a great realtionship with my BS as well. She was Ying to my Yang. And hey, we had issues, but everyone does, and we are M and they will work out. Well no one ever taught me how to work it out. And then one day the OW showed up at work. And the rest is now bad history.

Afterwards, using the info from this site, our Ying/Yangs got into the conversations that really revealed how unhappy we were in our R. What I had done, and what she had done. Why the M had problems and what we could do to fix it.

As great as the M was pre-A at times, it pales to the M that we have now.

LG,

I just wrote the longest post of my MB career and some how lost it. Which I guess is okay. I think I may have been doing a little bit of "poor me" in it. I don't want to do that.

So here it goes. I am hard to get along with for 5 reasons that stand out and one that I just realized.

1. I am judgemental. I have very high moral and standards for myself. I sometimes hold others up to my standards. It causes problems. I have to be reminded that not everyone is me.

2. I am very controling. I didn't want to beleive that for years. My definiton of controling has nothin gto do with what it actully is. I learned that from Dr.Phil. Much to Mr. Vashes dismay. He had been telling me I was controling for years.

3. I have never been good at keeping my mouth shut. I need to think before I speak. I call it honesty some call it rude.

4. Nothing is ever good enough. I have to be reassured a 100 times if food taste okay. If I look okay. If I'm doing it right. It drives Mr. Vash nuts.

5. I am mothering. I want to fix everyone. I feel the need to make things better for everyone and ignore myself. Then I get upset because they don't handle themselves the way I would which goes back to number 1.

6. The one I just figured out is have a strong desire for admiration. Which is so evident in my list. I never would have said that about myself but it's true. Go figure.

So that is why I am hard to get along with. It seems though that to know me is to love me. I could never figure out why people liked me. I am serious. But they do. Even after Mr. Vash exposed me to all of our friends and has family.(I told mine) they still like me. I find that so hard to swallow. I do not feel worthy of anyones friendship.

That is why I seek my answers on here. You can't see me. You all don't feel sorry for me. You all don't sugar coat things for me. I love it. Real answers and real people. Not a bunch of people who want me to smile and feel better. You are all people who want me to be better. For that I thank you all.

Jesica

Vash - I am not in anyway suggesting anything at all. I have looked at my posts to you in this thread and for the life of me I cannot see how what I have said could have upset you (although clearly this is what has happened). I presume at this point, for whatever reason you just don't like me which is fine. I suspect however that I have hit a nerve which causes your totally out or proportion reactions.

If you don't want to hear from me that is fine. Click on my username and then find the "ignore this poster" button and click on it. Too easy.

I hope you and Mrs Vash sort this out. I only wish both of you the best.

Mort,

Okay I need to redo the EN quiz. I think I have misjudged myself. I took it with not wanting to hurt my H anymore than I already have.

The order I picked is this.
1. Honesty and Openness
2.Family commitment
3.Affection
4.Domestic support
5.Admiration
Now as I look at them I know it's wrong.
6.Finacial support
7Sexual fulfillment
8. Conversation
9. Recreational companionship
10. attractive spouse.


10 is easy I have an attractive spouse. I find him more attractive with every passing year.
9. i am so not into recreational anything. So what lttile we do is perfect.
8. Conversation we have always made time for each other to talk. Weather it be everyday or once a week.
7Someone once said if you have a partner who you are content with it isn't highon your prority list. This is how I feel. We are very compatible in our sex life so it isn't an issue.
6.Now here comes one that I should have put much higher. I feel like I am the one that the money issues come down on. I am a bartender/waitress so if we need more money I ca nwork extra. If we get into big trouble I cn call my family. Vash doesn't like to think about it. I try not to worry. He gets reibursted by his company for the internet. He hasn't feeled out the paperwork in months. We could use that money. There is just always a reason why he hasn't done it. It kills me. I feel like he blames me for the money problems.
5.Admiration now we all know that it should be way up there.
4.Domestic support. I do everthing. If your thinking it I do it. I have trained him this way. Now I need help. I know it's not right for me to complain about it if that's how it has always been. He isn't a mind reader. He does help if i ask. I justr don't want to have to ask.
3. Affection is something that we have worked on together. I like to be shown in special ways. Notes,cards actions.. He is a very touchy feely kind of guy. We have both copromised in this area.
2. Family commitment. I need to know that htis is where I belong. When things get tough Vash has a habbit of saying he wants a divorce. I reel from those fights for weeks. He doesn't mean it. But words hurt.
1 Honesty and openness. I think everyone wants that.
So I guess I would just reajust my needs.
1.Admiration
2. Financial Support
3.Domestic support
4. Honesty and openness
5. Family commitment
6. affection
7. conversation
8.recreation companionship
9. sexual fulfillment
10. attractive spose.

I have to run the kids need something. Tell me what you think.
Jess

Okay. Very good. Remember, this list is to be done in the following way...

Take the 10 ENs. Find the one in there that if you had to get rid of nine, and only have one met by Jason, which one would that be? Once you have that one, then you do the same thign again with the rest of the list (which on out of the nine left would you have to have met). You do this until you have ordered all of them.

Jsut because you are content in the SF area right now...as you say...doesnt mean it is low on the list. It may be high on the list...but you are content with the way your husband meets that need.

So, re-check the list based on the criteria I jsut laid out. Then let me know what you find.

But for now...I am pretty sure I am right about what I said last week. That admiration is VERY high on your list. And it is very likely that this is where the OM was meeting needs. You would help him, do things for him...and he would appreciate all that you were doing for him. So, you felt good and would want to do more. I suspect that you may not have really wanted sex with him...but that your need for admiration led you to want to please him...and he wanted to have sex with you. Let me know how close I am.

This happens with a lot of women that have had affairs. It usually isnt the sex for the woman. She gives sex because she is gettign something else.

Anyway, recheck your needs list to make sure you have done it by this criteria. Then post the list again. Once we figure it all out, then we can see what boundaries you need to put up...and also how your husband might better meet those particular needs.

By the way, he is going to need to post his ENs on his thread also. And once we go thru that...then you will have to learn to better fulfill his (we can always improve, right?).

As I said, this stuff is all so simple. Your fall was very simple. It wasnt complicated at all. No real hidden meanings or agendas. But the fog of the addiction caused you to miss all of the warning signs.

What we need to do now is set up great walls, bigger signs...and help you make sure you understand that you should always heed those warning signs...before you get to the cliff.

Mortarman,

I did do it wrong. Last night I read "His needs,Her Needs". I messed it all up.

I picked things to go on top that where making me angry or upset. Not that I couldn't live without.

I should have read the book before I tried to answer the questions. I hurt Jason without even meaning to with my answers. What a fool I am.

Okay. So give me a day or two to get the book finished and then I'll repost my top ten EN.

Thank you so much.
Jessica

Here are a couple of interesting things regarding “emotional needs”.

First, often times spouse’s most important needs are the same ones that are being met the least. This means that emotional needs change with the landscape. The reality is that they all have importance but perhaps at different times they will rise or fall in your list. For instance, you list sexual fulfillment far down on your list, but go without it for a month or so and it might climb to the top.

Second, don’t be surprised if his list is almost the inverse of yours; Men are from Mars, women are from Venus.

He most likely tells you he wants a divorce because he is testing your level of commitment to “stay the course” in the marriage. Perhaps he is unsure that you really want to recover, as he does not know what you are thinking or if he can measure up to the other man. He may feel that it is grossly unfair to not only be betrayed by the one he loves but then to have work at recovering from something he did not cause. He doesn’t’ want to be second choice or even first choice; the fact that he is a choice at all is depressing in of itself. Anger, resentment and bitterness will all surface as he processes what has happened. He most certainly wants to know that you are committed to recover before he makes such a commitment in order avoid further insult and disappointment. Your words are not enough and your actions take time to prove themselves out, so he tests your commitment by offering you a “way out”. He may “cut his nose to spite his face” and you may do your relationship a service if remain guarded to watch and not permit him to take this way out. It is easy to feel defeated but I urge you to fight against it.

I told my wife on many occasions to “pack your bags and leave me to my pain”. It was her insistence to flatly state, “I’m not going anywhere and neither are you”, that won me over. She made that her mantra and after some time I learned that she really meant it. Then I let go of the lingering resentment and I really began to feel better. Two years latter it still pops up from time to time but it is manageable and continues to improve.

I hope this helps you,

Mr. G

Thank you Mr.G,

I think I didn't make myself clear. I do that a lot when typing. I get to far ahead of my thought process and leave things out.

Vash has been very careful not to say anything about divorce during this stage of my A. He would say that to me way before the A when we fought. He has been very good to me during this whole ordeal.

I do need to redo my EN. I didn't do it properly.
Thank you for your time. It is sucha great help.
Jessica

Okay Jessica...please do that.

And remember...you didnt hurt Jason with your answers. The truth right now is the best thing for Jason. He lives in a world where he doesnt know what is true, what is right. He looks around every corner, under every table...wondering what will hit him next. He is hyper-sensitive. He has been hurt badly and is in protection mode. Paranoia reigns supreme.

You cannot make it go away any faster than it will. But you can make it last longer. How? well, honesty is what he needs. Radical honesty. You must be completely transparent.

Mr. G said something that was very good. His wife's comment that "I am not going anywhere, and neither are you" over and over again...backed up by visible examples of that commitment...is exactly what every BS wants and needs!

His pain is his pain. He is the one that will find his way through it. All you can do is "do no harm." And be there like a rock, steadfastly committed to him, your family and your marriage.

Mr. G talked about him sabotaging things. This is classic BS stuff. Sometimes, the pain is so bad, that we want the WS to "do us a favor" and just leave. So, we get mean and spiteful.

Here is an example.

One day, he might be feeling this way. You walk in and say:

Mrs. V: "What's up, hun."
Mr. V: "Dont call me hun."
Mrs. V: "What's the matter?"
Mr. V: "I dont know why I continue to try. It is hopeless. I just cannot get over what you did."

Now, here is where you can make a huge mistake. You could draw him into a conversation, talking about the reasons why, and how you have worked hard to get past it, etc. And guess what? You will be met with ANGER!

Instead, your response goes something like this:

Mrs. V: "I am sorry."
Mr. V: "Sure you are (sarcastic). If I had not of caught you, you would still be at it. You dont love me."

Mrs. Vash...this is standard BS speak. He doesnt want jsutifications. He wants you to hear his pain...and not run. Your response?

Mrs. V: "Jason, I am so sorry for the pain I caused you."
Mr. V: "But what if I cant get past this Jess? What if there is no way for me to get over what you have done?"
Mrs. V: "Jason, I love you. I am sorry. I am here. I am not leaving. I will understand no matter which way you go. But I have made my decision...and I will be here."

Do you see? He needs you to hear his pain, and not justify things. Not make excuses. even if true, they always sound so hollow to a BS. Instead, he needs to just hear sorrow and commitment. And love.

Understand?

The sounds good. Thank you.

Just a few words regarding my H thread. I was told by him that I could read it. So I did. I was told by others not to post on it. So I wont. I have been told not to read it further by you all. I think I underdstand why now.

I do want to answer some of the questions raised on his thread about me.

Brynap,
This is the definition of BPD
A person with a borderline personality disorder often experiences a repetitive pattern of disorganization and instability in self-image, mood, behavior and close personal relationships. This can cause significant distress or impairment in friendships and work. A person with this disorder can often be bright and intelligent, and appear warm, friendly and competent. They sometimes can maintain this appearance for a number of years until their defense structure crumbles, usually around a stressful situation like the breakup of a romantic relationship or the death of a parent.
Thanks for the heads up. It does not apply to me.

I'm sorry I for got the peoples names who questioned about CSA. I have always thought that something happened to me as a child. I am not sure what. I blamed my father for years. My parents where seperated when I was 10 months old. I started masterbating at the age of 3. I remember getting in trouble for it.

Like I said I am not sure if anything ever happened to me but there has always been that feeling for me.

I do not feel like I have any disorders other than the one I have been diagnoised with. I could be wrong. I will go to my GP and ask him to recommend someone for me to speak to.


I have been on Prozac for a little over a year now. I do have PMDD. That is Pre-menstrual Disforic Disorder. I have never felt so "normal" in my whole life.

I didn't recognize I had a strong need for admiration until just a few days ago. It is now something I can work on. I see it. I don't need other men to feel that need. I was una ware of the threat to myself and my marriage. Hind sight is 20/20.

Thank you again,
Jess

Okay now stop reading his thread. I serves you no purpose and will hurt your M rather than help it. Neither one of you knows the truth. You each have your perception of it but the truth is somewhere beyond either of you. You have no need to defend yourself. Reading his thread is a useless distraction from the real help you need and available to you here.

Do a little experiment. Stop reading his thread for 7 days. Then start reading his thread for 7 days. Then, after 14 days, evaluate it and see which one worked better for you. I think you will be very surprised. Don't worry about what he says about you or accuses you of on his thread. We all know it is his opinion and perception. But he needs to be able to fully explore that and understand it without you shutting it down.

A few months ago, I was convinced that my WW was Satan incarnate. I no longer have that opinion but I needed to explore that entire line of thinking and get help from people here to allow me to have those thoughts and work through them.

Last night my DD2 couldn't go to sleep because she was convinced there was a witch in her closet. She was in tears. I could have simply told her there was no witch in her closet (there wasn't BTW) and told her to go to sleep but I knew she had to explore it and understand it. So we got up and went and checked the closet. We discussed whether she wanted the door left open or closed. Then we talked about witches and how they were only make believe. Then she got in bed and was asleep in less than a minute. She worked through it - but she had to do it in her own way and in her own time.

Hello again,

I am glad that you do not have BPD. Vash has made comments that he was cheated on by his previous wife and that you worked very hard to get him over it and become trusting and moving on with his life with you. I think you are really going to need to address the question that if you new what he went through previously and worked with him to overcome it then how could you have allowed yourself to do this to him again knowing the effect it would surely have on him? Was it down deep you saw this as an exit affair? I guess I just don't get it. You worked with him to overcome his fear of it previously and then you did the one thing you absolutely knew that would severely wound him. I really think you have to address this issue with him. It is absolutely critical.

Bryanp,

I don't know how to explain my actions to my husband so I can not explain them to you.

I worked hard to get my H to feel safe and secure in our relationship in a ton of ways. His ex did a great disservice to him and a few others.

I have never in my life done anything even close to this discusting. I am ashamed of myself and my actions. I am working hard to find answers in myself for what I did.

I did not do this to my H for an exit affair. I'm sorry that you did not have a healthy ending to your M. I'm sorry that your W cheated on you. I am truely sorry that you two could not work it out.

I am not the devil. I am a good parent and a good person. I was a good wife until 23 days ago. I am learning to be a good wife again. I have issues that I didn't know I had. I am going to work on them with my H and a professional.

The love I have for my H never faltured. He is the rock in my life. He is one of the best people I know. What I did was so awful. I will not be compared to his ex. Not by him or you.

She is evil. Not because she had mutiple affairs. She is just wired wrong. My H will tell you that.She has done other things to him that took me longer to help him over come than the affairs.

The way I helped him over come the pain she left in himis the same way I hope to help him over come the pain I have caused him. With hard work, time, love, and patience. What I did will take longer to help him over come but weather we stat together or not I will help him threw.

Jess

I wish you luck. It is clear that you are trying very hard. Your description of his ex-wife sounds exactly like my ex-wife. The sad part is that even after you leave them for your own health the damage still remains and you end up still being one of the walking wounded.

Thank you for your wishes of luck. I do hope that you are not going to be one of the "walking wounder" for long. I wish you luck as well in your recovery.

Jess

WVG2:

Emotional Needs are more interesting once you get into reading HNHN doesn't it? And never order them in the order that you think your spouse would like to see them. No real point in that.

HNHN and the EN's led us to the recovery that we needed in our M.

Read the book. Do the questionaires. Do them for yourself. Do them for Vash, but do not show them to him and do not compare them to his answers the first time. When you complete one for your spouse, you might be right, or you might be wrong, but it is only your perception of what you feel the spouse feels is important.

You can ask Vash to participate in your reading of HNHN, and you can ask him to discuss the principles in the book. You can even get the CD and listen to it on the CD player with him, or in the car when you take a trip somewhere. Opens up alot of opportunity for discussion of the principles contained. BUT, and this is a very big BUT, Do not pressure Vash to do these things with you. He is the BS and he might not want to do it, right now. (Most WS never get HNHN, so you are way ahead.) (And I think Vash has read HNHN). Ask, and then do your thing with them. If you do the reading and the learning, you will start to find out happened and what went wrong in your M. Vash will come around to work with you as you grow.

Reading your EN's made me remember when my BS and worked through them. And how we talked about some of the needs and how we had missed the mark for many years in some of these areas. And how we had tried to meet EN's for the other, but they were the ones we THOUGHT the other needed. And in hindsight, even though you did not know about the concept of EN, how easy it was too know what your spouses EN's were and when in an argument, you could stick a knife in to them. You knew you were hurting the other person, hey, they were hurting you!

I'm so glad to be getting out of that loop.

Lousygolfer,

It is a wonderful thing to understand what you are answering. For the life of me I couldn't figure out why Mr.Vash felt like I was attacking him. I wasn't trying to. I just hadn't read the book and didn't understand what was need of me.

I am just so glad to have found this place. It has helped me more than I ever expected. I also have an appointment next week with a Pshcologist. I need some help finding the "why".

Thank you.
Jess

Mortarman:

Your posts really help me...I truly appreciate the insight...it gives me something to hang on to.