Vash,

You got it right; there is good stuff here. I think you are smart enough to filter out the stuff that does not fit. Like you noted, it’s regular people who post here.

You are on the right road my friend. No voodoo or black magic, just real tried and proven methods that help couples rediscover what they can mean to each other. What’s so bad about that?

If you both want to recover then your success is virtually guaranteed. I know you are no stranger to infidelity and I suspect that you are a bit shocked as you look back at those experiences with new insights from this website.

Keep your chin up,

Mr. G

Vash,

I am extremely glad to see you here!! Please know that.

On your post...I do understand what you are saying. I didnt imply every post and everyone is always on track. What I said was that these people are here to help. I know those people you refer to...and some of them were the same ones that kicked my butt early on. You see, the BS can be as fogged out as the WS. I'm not saying you are...just saying I have been down your road.

Most of the vets here have little tolerance for justifications and victimhood. They have little tolerance for "but you dont understand...we are different." We have learned that those statements are basically crap! They are crutches used to help explain a painful situation and help them get thru. Unfortunately, these crutches never work!

And this is what these vets try to get the BS and WS to understand. I understand what you were saying about that post you extracted. And later, we can go into what I think really happened there. But for now, I jsut ask you to trust me that the intentions of most that have been involved have been honorable. So, let's just let that lie for awhile.

This is always true. Of anything in life. But be careful to discount things too early before walking them thru. You may find out later that they may have been right.


No. A high post count doesnt make a person an expert. The expert is Dr. Harley. I agree with you. But, I think if you also come to this with an attitude of "let me just talk and listen for awhile. Take in what is being said. See where it goes." Then you may have an easier time with this. I'm not saying accept something that isnt true. I am saying that sometimes, the truth isnt readily apparent...especially in the middle of the battle.


You are welcome. From just what I have read so far...and what you have said about her...I believe you are a lucky man, Vash. I know it may not completely feel like that right now. I know she is tarnished right now. But the fact that she is searching, is trying to find out the "whys" of this...that she is trying to make amends...says volumes about her character. There are some that commit adultery...and then keep right on doing it. We KNOW what their character and honor is!! Or what they dont have! But there are others that make a huge mistake...but then set out to make amends, to rectify, to learn. That is a person, deep down, with good character. A man or woman of honor. As I said Vash...you are a lucky man! Your wife has shown more honor and character in the last few weeks than my wife ever has.


I hope you do Vash! And I look forward to talking with you some more.

Foreverhers,

My H and I just had that talk yesterday. I told him that in hind site I could see where I went wrong.

Where in the beging of this post I stated that we where both flirts and it was okay.That we both new what was what. Well I was wrong.

The flirting on my part opened a door that should never have even been knocked at. I have seen the error of my thinking and am taking steps to fix it in myself. Flirting has become a second language for me. It is how I interact with men and women a like.

I went back to work this past week and was not flirting. It was a bit strange to have to think about everyhting before it came out of my mouth. I am willing to change what I need to change to make my life and that of my H and kids better.

I was not trying to imply that I was a FWS. I just wanted to know when the title got to change. I am not looking for an easy way out of the mess I have created. If I don't do the work nothing will change and I beleive I need to change my behavior and way of thinking.

Thank you for your thoughts.
Jess

I think you have come a long way especially with your understanding of the problems inherent in flirting. You may perceive it one way but the other person may perceive it in another way. Flirting also allows boundaries to be lowered where you start doing things because it is just in fun but each step leads to another dangerous step. Finally, I believe flirting with others is also in the long run seen by many as simply being disrespectful to ones spouse even if it is in fun. It sends various message on different levels that brings into question the character and integrity of the married person who is doing the flirting. This is just my opinion.

Jess and Vash,

I wanted to let you know that you are being prayed for. I have been reading your posts and I care. I realize i can not do much for you other than pray but perhaps knowing you are being prayed for is helpful too.

i hated the way this thread was going at the start, I am really glad it has become more positive and helpful.

Jess, I am a FWW and I want you to know I think you are acting very admirable. So here is a pat on the back for you. Yes, we made a mess of things, but you (and I) are owning up and making ammends. that is to be commended.

Vash, My DH like you choose to stay married. I am very grateful and impressed at my DH's commitment. I have learned much from him. I tell him he is my hero and the family's hero. You are too.

One final note about those here that post. We are just regular people, and all we can do is type words.

I truely believe the vast majority are typing from their hearts, hearts which happen to have scars.

sometimes someone attempts to put humor into their replies, because lets face it we can all benefit from a smile. but sometimes things are misunderstood, sometimes things are just poorly written, sometimes people are wrong, sometimes they are dead on.

whatever the case, i find that if I have a habit of reading with the intent to find use out of what was written, i get more benefit. sometimes something i read is clearly off base and not at all helpful. when that happens (and it does not really happen all that often anymore!!) i just let it go.

sometimes something that i read is hard to read because it is a truth i don't want to see. i don't let those go, because there is where the best growth can occur.

anyway the point is, take what helps you, try to read with the desire to be helped always in the front of your mind. i realize we all have a tendency to want to defend ourselves when we think something is being stated that is attacking us. just try not to see it that way. take what helps and leave the rest behind.

again, you are both in my prayers. Karen

Mr Vash,

I hope you stay and even start your own thread. Things people say on here are sometimes dead wrong, I give you that, but underneath it all there are lots of people with good hearts giving great advice.

Yes, this thread veered in the wrong direction for a while and focused too much on one thing. Here's my two cents:

Drinking: I believe you when you say it isn't a problem. I would say don't swear it off but be smart on its use. Having a glass of wine with your H over a romantic dinner should be acceptable. Or sharing a bottle between the two of you, as long as it doesn't become a regular thing, is ok. Moderation being the key. In your case, it unfortunately lowered your inhibitions enough to make you very susceptible to a temptation that was there before. When we're sober, we may think something and not act on it because we have the clarity of mind to say to ourselves that doing something will be wrong. Drunk, however, makes you act on impulse.

Flirting: you obviously came to the conclusion that it isn't harmless in a marriage, which is good. This is an absolute. It is a slippery slope.

Look, I'm a man. I may catch some flak for this from other men, but for one thing, we don't generally flirt harmlessly. We may not be conscious of doing it, but we definitely do it more with those we find attractive. I have a very strict standard regarding friends of the opposite sex while married. Radical honesty steps into the picture here. It's ok to have friends of the opposite sex, but interact with them when your H is around. Or do things with couples. Don't be alone with members of opposite sex (unless you're, for example, planning a party for your H with his best friend).

It's a fine line. But we're all human and we have God given hormones that sometimes override the brain and make us act on what we feel. There's 6 billion people on Earth. That's the case because sex feels good and we like it and we're one of the few species on the planet that do it for pleasure. That's why when you choose a mate you have to work on keeping that a pleasant experience exclusive to the one you're with.

We're all susceptible to temptation. Flirting is playing with fire. Mrs. V, you realize this. Does your H?

Thank you all. I'll take all the prayers I can. It means a lot to me.

My husbands flirting never was like mine. He is a friendly person. He will talk to anyone. That is one of things I love most about him. He has a female friend whom he is very close to. She has given him great advise in the past. I am not a big fan of hers. Though when he needs a sounding board she is there for him. I am coming to realize that my biggest problems with her where actully problems with myself. I would never have excepted my H flirting with someone the way I did. I made it okay in my mind because we where all friends. It was never okay. I think I have always known that other wise I wouldn't have spent so much time trying to convince myself and others that it was okay.

As for his flirting I will let him make is own decisions on that. We will talk about it I'm sure. As of yet it's me who is discovering what flirting did to me and my marriage.

Jess

Just a side note. Mr. Vashes female friend is someone he works with. He is also friends with her BF. They do not spend time outside of work together without me. I just don't want anyone to try and make his friendship out to be a bad thing.

If you're uncomfortable with it then he should do things to make you comfortable. He should limit his interaction with her at work and if he wants to bounce something off her or talk to her, then he should be able to do it in front of you.

Right now you're not quite in a position to demand anything from him, but you could bring this discomfort to his attention.

He doesn't realize how lucky he is to have a remorseful WS looking for advice. I would have done anything for my ex to feel as you do.

Thanks for the advise Papaof3. I'm sorry your marriage didn't servive the A. My H is still deciding. It is all very new.

My H did everything to make me comfortable with his friendship. It is a non issue. We have had her in our lives for years. Her children are a part of our lives. They don't have an inaporpriate relationship. I am not shy about telling it how it is to my H. He is lucky to have her. I am lucky he has her. She has saved our marriage more than once.

Jess

I'm sure you and your husband will declare someone is picking on you again, but your husband's friendship with another woman is inappropriate. Before you disagree, look at it this way:

She is meeting needs that you should be meeting. You should be his sounding board- not her.

Dr. Harley discourages relationships with the opposite sex when you are married - especially where personal relationship information is shared

Yes, you may be with them outside of work- but you are not with them during work. A huge number of affairs begin in exactly this way.

Read the book His Needs Her Needs and I am fairly certain you will see how this type of a relationship is not good for you marriage.

I am extremely encouraged by the progress Jessica is making. Just today she has started taking steps forward to admiting the "what went wrong" points... That will go along way in helping of my forgiveness for her.

MoveForward, I do not take any exception to your opinions, what I take exception to, is people who think they know how I am going to act when they have no idea who I am.

Since you brought it up, I will discuss it though. I am curently reading all of Dr. Harvey's material. I think you misread something. He does not say it is impossible for a man and woman to be friends, just that if there are problems inside of a marriage, these friendships are the first to be exploited.

I believe in this concept. Plus, I see where alot of people would see this about my friend and I. In fact more than one person has thought there were inappropriate things between her and I. I do not and have never hidden my feelings about this woman from my wife. This woman has saved my marriage in the past and her and her BF are helping me through alot of this current situation. I have helped her release her guilt as a mother about her childeren, I have helped her son through a career in the Marines, and her Daughter is our babysitter once a week as we go out on our date nights.

This friend is a registered marriage counceler. Just so everyone is clear on that. She has been through more counciling and read more books on this subject than I ever thought possible. She is a wonderful lady and will remain a true friend of me and my family forever.

I do understand everyones feelings about this however and I will gladly discuss it. I truley have nothing to hide in this and never have. I also understand my wifes uncomfort in the beggining of my friend and my's relationship.

I again am not saying anyone is wrong, I am however saying that there is nothing in this world that can map out 100% of any one person, if there was, there would be no war.

Thank you all,
Vash

Vash,

Here is a quote from the man himself.


It's here - http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5059_qa.html

It's one of the infidelity FAQ's. Have you read them? They are linked below in my signature

I have a good friend (same sex) who is a marriage counselor as well. Did you know it is unethical for her to see me as a patient? In fact, when I told her about the A, she referred me to a counselor and prayed for me.

Your wife has already said the relationship bothers her. Why in the world would you want to continue a relatiionship that bothers her?

Maybe in some way you sort of like the idea that you have a relationship that bothers her?

I am the betrayed spouse. I can tell you if my FWS ever said that I was in a relationship that bothered him, I'd make the choice of him over that relationship.

Let me present it to you in another way, Vash.

Your wife started out 'innocently' enough having a friend of the opposite sex. What happened there?

That is EXACTLY why it is discouraged.

Vash,

I have great female friends. I'll trust that what you say is true. What I encourage you to do, if you aren't already, is make your interaction with her very open. It is good you've tried to make her a friend with you W.

I completely understand the pain, anguish, and tempations that come at this time. You will and may be tempted to have a revenge affair. It's normal, I think. You may have a strong enough personality to resist the temptation, but just keep in mind that you may not be so strong all the time.

It's tough, obviously, since we don't know you and see your interaction, but this could easily become a thorn in your recovery.

Vash, count your blessings. You have been betrayed, yes. But you have a woman who is genuinely trying and I would have loved to see my ex have that kind of remorse and attitude. It's good to see you reading all these things and I hope you and the Mrs share in the ideas and concepts.

My guess is that in a year or two or even a few months you will have a marriage that others envy. You will come out stronger out of this, not weaker. Don't bail on this woman because of this one mistake. The lessons learned from our greatest failures can lead to our greatest successes. History shows this over and over.

Good luck. Start your own thread. A lot of us here know exactly how you feel. This is so fresh in your mind that I know how difficult and consuming the idea of your W with someone else really is. The things you held sacred and were exclusive to only you have now been violated. We understand this pain, especially as men. Our pain as BSs is different than that of BWs. There's many similarities, but some things are unique to men and to women.

Start your own. We can give you some help with things that have helped us.

I encourage you to read another, short, but very powerful book. It's "Man's Search for Meaning" by Victor Frankl. It was written in the late 40s and is only 156 pages long, but it is very powerful.

Vash,

I understand what you are saying concerning this woman. And I do believe you! Your wife probably does too. But I want you also to understand a marriage axiom that both of you need to adhere to. It is the Policy of Joint Agreement (POJA). Please read up on that on here. It is important!

Basically, the way spouses should look at it is this...if my doing something upsets my spouse, I will stop doing it. Plain and simple. Now, there should be a discussion. Maybe you like playing pool on Friday nights with the boys. But your wife doesnt like you doing that. do you jsut give up pool? Well, no. You two would sit down, discuss it. You would tell her about why you want to, what it means to you. She would tell you why she doesnt like it. Then you try to find a compromise that both can agree on (POJA). But until there is a compromise...there should be no pool playing!!

Understand? Your most important human relationship is with your wife. Not with your friends. Not with your family. Not even with your kids. Your wife must come first...always! If it means givign up a friendship...then so be it.

Again, I dont know if this is the case. Jessica stated she had had a problem with it. Maybe she doesnt now...I dont know. This is something you two must HONESTLY discuss.

Oh yeah...and compromise doesnt mean giving in. If Jessica says "its okay for you to be friends with her" and she doesnt really mean it...your marriage is in trouble. Please read up on POJA...it is a MUST!!!

Mrs. Vash,

From the sounds of your husband...it appears that you are doing well in this journey. Let's continue!

So far, you have seen where your stumbling block was (inappropriate relationships with men, flirting, etc). I think you truly can see where that leads. Remember what I said earlier? About the difference between simple and easy. As you can see...your fall was all so simple! Right?

Now, the next step is to address what needs this flirting and this guy was meeting. And make no mistake...he was meeting needs. I encourage both of you to take the Emotional Needs Quuestionaire and the Love Busters questionaire on this website. Then report back here and let's go thru it. Once you two address what your msot important needs are, what love busters you two are in the habit of doing. Once we know that, then you can then sit down and look at what needs this guy met. This will help you set boundaries for the future. It will also help your husband make sure he is meeting those needs in order to protect your love for him.

So, time to take the next step.

Thank you all for your concerns and advice. Mr. Vashes friend is just that a friend. They do not see each other out side of work without me. Her BF is with them when they go out to lunch 75%of the time.

I had trouble with the relationship in the beging because I was pregnat when they first meet and feeling fat anf gross. When he saw that it bothered me he ended it. Jump 3 years down the road she needed help with her oldest son. He wanted to join the military. My H helped him with this decision and helped her over come some of her fears.

He has always been honest with me as I have with my feelings towards her. I don't want to spend the next 10 posts explaining this. I don't feel attacked either. I understand where you all are coming from and if in 3 years I find I'm wrong I'll be back(if I'm not still here).

Motarman,

I took the emotional needs quiz. I still need to do the love busters. I feel like I am making some progress. I have talked to my H about it.

As I was growing up as a child I was very unattractive. Big qlasses, skinny, bucked teeth freckles. If you have kids you know it's tough to be an out cast. I didn't turn from ugly duckling into swan until I was about 18. At that point I realized the power of flirting and good looks. I don't think I ever learned to communicate with men. I have always been very shy and when I do come out of my shell I am very sassy. What I'm tryin gto get at is that as I have become older I need the reasurance from outside sources of beauty. I am still that ugly little girl nobody liked. My H has done so much for me in this area. He makes me feel like the most beautiful woman in the world. I always say to him it's because he loves me that he feels that way. That has always driven him crazy. I am coming to think that OM while telling me I was beautiful was feeling a need in me. I know he didn't love me and still he found me beautiful. It must be true.

This was hard for me to come to. I spoke with my H about it yesterday. I feel like it's the right track. Then I think that's so silly. Could this have truley happened because I am insucure about my looks? How shallow is that?

Anyway thatnks for reading my life story.
Jess

Wanted to address several things here....

BigKahuna: I read that. It on the "How to survice infidelity" page. I wanted to tell you that becasue it seems that when I say I read things here and believe in thier concepts no one seems to pay that any attention. This friend of mine and I, as has been stated several times, don't see each other outside of work. There have been a couple ocassions and my wife was right there.

Moveforward: I didn't say I was seeing her professionaly. In fact its funny, becasue its usually me giving her advice. Mort mentioned something in the above post that struck me. He said, soon my wife and I would have the kind of relationship that people would envy.... We already HAD that relationship.... My friend counstantly held my relationship up as the becon of perfection. Jessica's friends at her work would always tell her the same. Well I am here to say, that if I had the perfect relationship, and this is what happened... I would rather not have it.

Popa, and Mort:
Thanks for your encourageing words... I can see you guys get it. Just so we are clearing the air here, Jess knows everything. I am very upfront with her about my friend. In the beggining (3 years ago) she would get upset when we talked about my friend, now she knows that when I talk about her, I do so with the respect of friendship and concern. I can't remember who pointed out the "revenge affair" point, but believe me I am VERY wary of that. I do not compound problems... I am a problem solver.

In all reality, it would be nice to feel attracted to anyone right now. Not that I want to turn this into something 3rd gradeish, but I can't even seem to masturbate. Sex of any kind just is of no interest and really the farthest thing from my mind. In my mind, my relationship WAS perfect. I had the perfect woman for me that understood me and still loved me and wanted to be with me. I am not easy person to get along with, and so for me to find this, it was my ideal relationship.... I see everyone keep saying that this was a mistake, but to me that seems to trivialize everything that our marriage was into a word that can not possibly contain a one hunderdeth of the emotions of it.

Should I be in this thread anymore??? or should I start my own? I wanted to get more understanding before I did, but is it just about the emotions?

Thanks All,
Vash

Vash,

Seriously, start your own thread. Some things you just said I can completely relate to. I've felt everything you have just described.

I trust what you're saying about your friend. The question to ask yourself, and this is one only you can answer and don't have to explain to us, is this:

If you were single right now, would this friend be a candidate for more?

I ask because I have a friend like that. She's never been anything other than a friend, but now that I'm divorced, she's a possibility (way down the road).

It's just a thought.

As far as the sexual issues go, you're not alone and none of it is unusual.

I'm sure that one of the problems you described has to do with a problem regarding "images" in your head. You try to get into the moment, but those thoughts are then replaced by your w and this other man doing things and suddenly you lose desire and find you have issues in this regard.

This will pass. It takes a while, but it will. One thing that helped me, when I was in the middle of it all, was having sex with my w. It really helped me get those images out of my head, but it didn't eliminate them. It was sort of like reclaiming something that was once exclusive to you and you alone.

I may not be the best example, though. My ex and I had SF twice after I came home and that was it.

What I am sure you can relate to is the obsessive need to know details. This is where your W HAS to tell you EVERYTHING. I found something out well after things happened and it was like re-opening all the wounds that were starting to heal. This is where SHE needs to step up and give you all the details you want to know. Keep in mind that something may not come to her right away. Memory is funny that way. She might remember things later.

This is horribly tough. Seriously, though, forgive if you can. Forgiveness is a choice. It isn't something you're going to feel. It is something you have to choose.

Something to keep in mind is that most marriages deal with infidelity at some point. Odds of infidelity are higher than those of divorce. Getting through that, though, will probably lead to a stronger, better M.

You're getting right now what dozens of us here want to hear from our WWs or ex WWs. An apology. Remorse. A desire to get your forgiveness. Consider yourself lucky, under the circumstances.

Keep your chin up and start your own thread.

Vash:

Methinks that MrsVash is deflecting attention from her indiscretion when bringing up your relationship with your lady friend. The last 10-15 posts have been about your R with this woman and not about the steps to recover your M.

It is a platonic relationship, you have described it as such, we will leave it at that.

I would explore this: "I am not easy person to get along with, and so for me to find this, it was my ideal relationship...." What did Mrs Vash have to suppress in herself to "get along" with you?

Vash,
Start a new thread if you like or continue to use this one as Jess and yours “joint marriage counseling thread”.



You are so right. The sure horror of being betrayed by the very person you though was your primary protector can never be adequately described in words. The ONLY ones who understand the feeling are those who have lived it. I presume you feel like you have lost everything that means anything. How can sum this up by the word “mistake”. I fully understand all you are feeling and I am about to throw you a rope.

The word “mistake” has a much broader meaning when describing what happened to Jess as she progressively immersed herself towards that fateful conclusion. She and perhaps you too have begun to understand how the seemingly innocent behaviors of the two (her and the OM) were in fact dangerous preludes to an ever-increasing next step. The steps were small but deliberate in that each one stroked her need and desire for admiration. She made the “mistake” of not knowing or understanding what the continued gratification from the OM’s comments of her beauty, her wit, and her sexiness really meant. I suspect that she was open and flattered by his comments as they filled a very important need that she had. She indeed wanted more of this drug that seemed so safe. With the first touch it was really over for her. She was powerless to stop, as she was already addicted to these new feelings. Of course she knew it was wrong, she knew she had crossed the line but her intention was NEVER to hurt you as she thought that you would NEVER KNOW. Thus go the selfish rationalizations of a wayward spouse. It is the same story over and over and over again.

So consider what she did as a “mistake”. She is now becoming armed with the way that this “mistake” progressed and with that knowledge she gains the tools to “affair proof” herself. She has found that she is weak to the compliments that feed her need for “admiration”. Although you may have admired her more then anyone ever could it was the compliments of an outsider that most legitimized the very things that you have likely told her for so very long and she was swooned by them.

She may likely have other weakness that she has yet to realize and that is why it is important to understand “emotional needs”.

You may read the reasons and you may even understand them but it is most understandable that they offer you little comfort from the pain you feel. For that it will take time and patience. As each day passes a new Jess will be revealed to you. Each of you will study and contemplate what has happened and that work will pay both of you dividends as you come to realize how important you are for each other. You see, through the pain of this near tragedy the both of you are discovering what real love is. It is nothing more then the way you treat each other and that will make all the difference.

You mentioned that your acquaintances held your marriage in high regard and that with the infidelity you would rather not have it. Remember this, some of the greatest loves ever populate these pages and the only question that remains is, “will Jess and you be one of them?”

Please consider some of what I have suggested,

Mr. G