Mr.G and Mortarman,

Thank you so much for your posts. You two are amazing. I just wanted to post that I will answering all questions later today. Thank you again.

Jessica

Jessica, a very good book for both you and your H now that I have read how this all went down is "Not Just Friends" by Shirley Glass. She addresses the flirting stuff too

Jessica,
I know you keep thinking of this as a one night stand, but in reality, you had been in an Emotional Affair with this man for some time. It progressed to a physical affair at the football party.

I think you perception of the affair needs to change before their can be healing for either of you. Your husband's perception needs to change as well. This was not a ONS. There has been too much leading up to it.

Now, as for flirting. As you are well aware of now, I hope, flirting can lead to much more and should nevr be practiced by either member of a marriage relationship. Flirting is never harmless.

By flirting you are fulfilling something inside of you that should only be fulfilled by your spouse. Take every precaution to aoid flirting with anyone but your spouse. Just in case you think I am way off base, here is the definition of flirting:
To make playfully romantic or sexual overtures.

I think this is something that might have happened sooner or later even without alcohol involved. You were getting in pretty deep. Alcohol only sped it up the situation.

Mrs. Vash,

Has it occured that the Why lies in your need to flirt?
What does it do for you that you cannot get from your H? Why this need.

Just a thought.

God Bless,

JL

Hello all,
Again I want to thank you all for your thoughts and advice. It has helped a great deal.

As for the it being and EA and a ONS I agree. Ididn't think of it as that until Mr.G and Motarman pointed it out. I am still looking into the "why" I needed it part. I think my first problem was that I always thought of an EA as when you told all your wants and needs and deep thoughts to another person. I didn't have thaqt kind of relationship with OM. So I thought it was safe. I see now I WAS WRONG.

So you all are correct. I do need to change my way of thinking. It is hard for me. I feel so dirty. I didn't htink anything was wrong with flirting. Now I see I was wrong.

Mortarman you asked me some questions and I will answer them. Weekends are very busy for me and I want to think about it and read some stuff. I would like to give you truthful answers. Thank you again for your help. You are great.

You too Mr. G........

Jessica

Take your time and consider the ideas that were suggested. The things you feel are far different from what your husband feels. It is one of the toughest things to understand and especially with respect to his and your sensitivities to what happened and what it means to your life together.

Time is your ally.

Mr. G

Outstanding post MM.

I am sorry for the both of you. It is such a crushing blow to the betrayed spouse. I assume that condoms were probably not used and even if they were it is now essential that the both of you get tested for STD's. These are the consequences of affairs.

I am glad that you are looking deep as to why you did this. Your previous messages indicates that it really was a matter of time based on all of the previous flirting. I also think that the environment where it happened made it so much worse. The fact that this the sexual act was committed while your husband was in the same house is extremely hurtful and demeaning to him especially that he walked in afterward. It is painful to imagine his humiliation and yours. Imagine if the roles had been reversed. Can you imagine how humiliated and disrespected you would be feeling today? I am glad you are looking for the answers but unfortunately the scar will always remain but hopefully fade over time. I wish you luck.

Thank you Bryanp. I have taken care of the STD part of your reply. It was one of the first things my H demanded of me.

Also you are correct about hte humiliation. It is an unforgivable act compounded by the fact that I did it with him there. I hope that some day his pain will fade. With lots of hard work on my part.

Jess

Having a hard day....

My H is going out. Just for awhile to play pool and meet up with a friend of ours. I am the WS so I have know right in feeling this way. I still can't help it.

I printed up the quizes from this site. Tonight when our kids go to bed I'll work on them.

It just hurts we had a pretty good weekend. He actully told me he loved me on Saturday night. I was calling him on my way home from work like I always did. We chit-chatted and when we where getting off he said"Bye Baby I love you." It felt like the first time. I didn't know how to react so I told him I loved him to. He said" DOn't tell me that".

That's when I realized he said it out of habbit. It hurt so much. I can't imagine the pain I am putting him threw.

I still have great hope that our love is stronger than the hurt and with a lot of hard work we'll get threw this mess that I've created.

Jessica

wvg2- you are right, it is almost impossible for a WS to understand the depth and intensity of the hurt that infidelity causes. No point really in trying to describe it to you, just know that it's much deeper and much more involved than you can know without yourself being on the "receiving end." Know also that it's worse for your husband because he lived the nightmare once (7 times over if I remember correctly) with his previous wife.




I would disagree with this "habit" statement. He DOES love you or he would not still be with you. In fact, he loves you despite the enormity of the pain. But he is not sure that "love" is enough. In addition, the vital component of any good marriage, TRUST, has been shattered and though he still loves you and is still with you, I'd bet heavily that in his mind he is asking himself if he can ever trust you again. Trust can be rebuilt, but it will take a LOT of time and effort on your part. "Blind trust," however, is probably gone for good.

When he said, "Don't tell me that," I'd also bet that I know what he meant and why he said that to you. No one commits adultery if they truly love their spouse. You may love him now, in your mind, but the day you chose to commit adultery you did not, it's as simple as that. He doesn't believe, or trust, you right now, so he does not want to hear "I love you" from you until he is sure you mean it. I told my wife NOT to say "I love you" until she MEANT it, for much the same reason. In essence, you have to earn the right to say "I love you." It may not seem "fair" to you, but it IS reality and it IS what he is going to "require" from you.




Jessica, time will tell. But here's one "key" you might want to think about. "Love" is an action verb. "Saying" ILU is meaningless right now. It is action that will say ILU and add meaning to the words.

If you haven't done it yet, study the "Love Bank" concept and the "Needs" that each of you have. Understand what HIS needs are and how you can meet them with actions, not just words. Time, and consistent actions, will begin to refill the "Love Bank" and begin to rebuild the trust that has been shattered.

Is "love" enough?" I can't answer that for you. I've read nothing about Faith being a part of your lives, so I'm guessing that you will have to each "go it alone." If that is so, I am concerned for your husband because he has chosen to remove himself from the forum and has a very large distrust or bias against help from this sort of source. Granted, I'm not too big on "Group Therapy" either, but what IS on this system are a lot of people who have the "practical" knowledge gained through the "school of hard knocks." In the infidelity arena, especially recovery from infidelity, EXPERIENCE with the actual problem from people who have been "through the fire" is, in my humble opinion, vastly superior to those who "counsel" from book knowledge. That's not to knock trained counselors, it's just to acknowledge that people who have experienced the "nuclear devastation" of adultery and "lived to tell about it" have a storehouse of practical experience they earned "the hard way."

Regardless, you (and your husband if he chooses to "listen in") will have to sort through the various comments and advice to determine what is applicable to your marriage and what is not. None of us is able to "know" either of you personally, so all that can guide comments and advice that is offered is what either of you choose to talk about and/or reveal.

God bless.

Thank you,

I have been trying to show my love in every way he will allow me at this point. I think you are right on target about my saying it. I think it may hurt him more. It's just how I feel. I don't think that you stop loving your spouse when you have a A.

Then again how could I have loved him and hurt him so deeply. This is so confusing.

I took the emotional needs quiz. Should I let him read it? At this point he isn't interested in taking it.

My H said to me today that I should of known what I needed before this all happened. He's right of course. I can look back now and see where I went wrong.

I don't want to come off sounding like I was the victim here. That if he would have done this or that I never would of had the A. It just doesn't sit well with me. I may be looking at this all the wrong way. I truly thought we had a strong marriage.

Thanks again for your post.
Jessica

I think you are looking at it the right way when you are looking into yourself to find the reasons you behaved like this. As you learn your own motivations and see where you went wrong, it will help you to avoid doing this again.

You are also doing right by showing your H that you love him in your actions in every way he will allow. I wouldn't push the issues of having him read your quiz or to take any quizzes for himself. Allow him to choose his own recovery methods and to proceed in his own schedule.

It seems you did have a strong marriage. I believe you can have that again. It will take a long period of recovery and readjustment to get things back the way they were.

I dare say that some of the greatest loves ever, populate these pages yet they all have the common thread of infidelity. I think you and your husband will find out that a “strong” marriage is one where you understand how “fragile” it can be.

Because you (and your husband) did not understand the basic weaknesses that are inherent in ALL relationships you inadvertently left yourself open to an affair. What are those basic weaknesses? Well, let us examine your most important emotional needs and it is there you will find where your weaknesses are. Without knowing it you gave this other guy permission to press your buttons that were likely grounded in what you thought was “harmless flirting”.



The following analogy is used often to describe how affairs can progress from very apparently innocent dialog to the final act of infidelity:

Frogs that are cold-blooded creatures would never jump into a pot of boiling water. However, that same frog would not hesitate to jump into a cool pot of water. The frog would happily play in the water without a care. If someone turned the heat under the pot the temperature would begin to rise. The frog being a cold-blooded creature would not perceive the rise in temperature and would eventually boil to death without an idea what was happening. Affairs are similar in that sometimes a person doesn’t realize that the temperature in the pot is rising until it is far too late.

Your husband’s assertion that you should have known these boundaries and been able to resist the affair is indeed a consideration that you must carefully think about. You see, for him the difference between “right and wrong” is all to clear. But you were there and it happened to you and you know things are not so simple yet I still suspect that you are filled with remorse and your burden seems no less heavy. Refer to the story of the frog, you didn’t see it coming until it was too late.

Last thing; for your husband one of the most important things he will come to realize is that is the importance to know who you really are and what you really mean to him as a partner. He now knows what you were at the time of the affair but what is really important is who are you NOW. Who is the person that your husband is married to NOW, not before but NOW? You of course can tell him, but showing him is so much more effective.

The experience of an affair is life altering. You have made a mistake but the mistake does not necessarily define WHO YOU ARE. Who you are NOW will be determined in the days, weeks and months that follow. How will you show him who you are, how, how, how?

Mr. G

Jessica and Vash!!

Hi!! I read your story and couldn't help but to reply. I have been around the site for a while now, but very rarely post for the same reason that Vash stopped posting...

I have gotten some very encouraging and positive replies from some. But for the most part, I wonder if this site aimes towards the BS. Even though I have been both, I think once you 'betray' the 'betrayed' is somehow washed away. maybe rightfully so...who knows!!

But I just wanted to let you know and Vash know that you aren't alone. That there are many of us that also fear the negative replies that we may receive, and I give you 'kuddos' for having the courage to let yourself out there and taking that risk!!

Fullofdoubt

FullofDoubt,

I dare say that you still do not understand the "why" of the posts that you are talking about. While there have been some out-of-bounds posts on this website, they are the rarity. And nowhere on this thread was anything "negative" or meant to hurt anyone.

The folks that were posting to these two (and I would surmise...to you on your thread) have years of experience with this. We have heard it all! We also know how BSs and WSs act and react in certain circumstances. It almost always goes the way that it always goes!

So, when a WS might be justifying...they get a stern talking to. Why? Do you understand "why?" It is because the WS has already been living in a world not based in reality. They need a wake up call. They dont need a pat on the back...or a "oh poor you...it's okay...everyone is human." Blah, blah, blah. Almost every WS will try to play the victim...and try to justify the unjustifiable.

This website is not just for BSs. But it seems that way because most on here are BSs. Now think critically for a minute. Why is this? Why are there more BSs on a marriage building website? It is because the BS is interested in the marriage...the WS is not! Not until they become a FWS are they considered a partner in the marriage. So, it stands to reason that those that want to save their marriage come to a marriage building website. Right?

But WSs are welcome. They are welcome because they need the help and support. But that doesnt come with making them feel good or understanding their "love" for the OP. That is nothing but enabling! Dr. Harley calls this adultery thing an addiction. So we treat it like one.

You know, we constantly get new posters on here (or relatively new) that chime in as you do when we go to help a WS. It is because they truly dont understand. And it is obvious that you do not either. I am not saying that in a mean way. I am saying that you do not understand fully what the issue is and what is going on. You dont understand the "why."

Enabling a WS by saying "they are mean..they will beat you up...I understand how you feel" will NEVER help them.

Have you read the thread in the last week? Have you seen Mrs. Vash has already stepped out on the road of introspection? Can you see that thru all of the guidance (and yes, sometimes a butt kicking) that she is making all of the right steps to help recover her marriage and to figure out the "why" of all of this.

So, please. Sit down and learn about this stuff. Invariably, those that come in as you have...almost always come by later on (after they see this work) and say "you know, I was wrong. You guys werent beating her up. I jsut didnt understand."

Sit back and learn. Just like the rest of us had to. And maybe have a little trust that we are trying to help those like Mrs. Vash and Mr. Vash. And we are using the principles that have been used for so long...to a great deal of success.

I have to say I agree with you Mortarman. Not only do I not deserve to feel like the "victim"in all this. I am not the victim. My family is. My childeren there father. Those are the victims.

I have tried so hard not to do the "poor me" thing. Even when I wanted to. It will not get me anywhere. I brought this situation on myself and I will do the work it takes to pull our family out of the mess I created.

You are a wise man Mortarman. I very much like to read your post. You and others on this site have helped me a great deal. For that I thank you.

The fact that you all can even be kind to a WS is a wonderful gift. Thank you.

I do have one question. When do you get to be a FWS. Does Mr.Vash decide? Or is it when the person(me) figures out the "why"?

Jess

You get to use it the second you begin to "walk-the-walk".

Mr. G

I have decided to stick around this place. After alot of debating weather I would post again or not this last post by you Mort decided it for me. You have implied twice now that all the people that responded on this thread have replied in the way they did out of care and concern. I want you to read the below post and say that again... This post below, may have started that way, but it ended in a childish 3rd grade attempt at teasing and goading.

I am here mostly becasue Dr Harvey is an F'ing genius. I come to this post to remind myslef that my wife is trying. I have found stuff that Mr Goodbar, Nottoday, and you Mort to be extremly helpful along my path for self recovery. However, not everything that Everyone says on this site is correct for everyone or even helpful for that recovery. Pages 2 - 4 of this very post are crap. There are a few thing in those pages that are slightly helpful for the situation, but for the most part the posts are personal attacks, not forceing Hes or I into a realization.

People are in the end just people. No matter thier expierences or knowledge, they are still falable. I appreciate your honesty and think you are one of the main contributers to helping Jess on the self realization road, but don't expect me to believe that a high post count and a few years of recovery on this site makes someones advice pertenant or even helpful....

Again though a very personal thank you for your help to Jessica.

I will probably be posting for my own help sometime in the future, however, I want to read all the articles and a couple of the books first.... I am more of a self help kind of guy and want to understand my part if any before I make my own post here.

Thank you all,
Vash

Jessica, try this one "for size" and see how it fits with your ruminations:

When does one become a Former flirt?


Here's some other things to think about;

Is flirting with someone as if one were NOT married, but single, conducive to a committed and exclusive marital covenant when the bride and groom have voluntarily chosen to "give up" the single lifestyle?

Only the individual can determine what their own STANDARDS of behavior will be. Only the individual can determine what their own BOUNDARIES will be and what the consequences will be for someone who willingly, or unknowingly, violates your personal boundaries.

You keep looking for the "why." Why not start with what you currently accept as your own Standards. They will tell you a lot about the "why," imho.

God bless.