NT, I don't think that drinking should be brushed off as the main cause either, but it has to be recognized that drinking contributed to the impaired judgement that allowed her to have the affair. Dancing does not impair one's judgement, drinking does. And just because one drank before and did nothing destructive does not mean it can't happen in the future. We all start somewhere.

And the reason it is important that she recognize this, and she does, is not so that she has a convenient EXCUSE, but so she doesn't put herself in that position again. She has recognized that her drinking contributed to her destructive behavior and I believe her. This is why she has "sworn it off."

People can and do things under the influence that are destructive that they would never do while sober. That is not an excuse but a signal to change one's behavior.

Vash and wasvashesgirl2,

I read about the first half of this thread so I don’t have all the ins and outs of what’s going on here but I would like to still give my 2 cents.

Vash and wasvashesgirl2 are the main subject of this forum. vashesgirl2 made that pretty clear in her first post. They are a couple in dire need of help. Criticism, arguing, etc. will not move their problem in any direction, unless of course they side with each other and blow off MB.

Vash, I agree with your thoughts on forums in general. It is very difficult if not impossible to get a true feel for who somebody is or what they are about on a forum. That is a limitation, one we all must look at closely just as you do.

Here are some positives I receive “seeking help/counseling” here.

• It is anonymous
• You can get a consensus to evaluate your situation
• You can put things into perspective by comparison
• You can get views by people who have lived through an affair or who are currently living through an affair.

As you know the emotions that accompany an A are amazingly strong. I could not accurately describe the real pain to someone else if I had to. Coming here you can discuss these things with people who already have that real sense of pain you feel, hence a better ability to understand the problem. I am speaking “generally”. There is bad advice everywhere, including here. But there is a lot of good here too.

With an IC or MC, you are limited to their book knowledge and maybe their life experiences which you are not privy to because they do not reciprocate in personal sharing. That does not mean an IC or MC is not a road to go down. I know there are many excellent ones out there and they heal millions of affair stricken couples.

My views may be quite bias, here’s why. My W and I went to an MC in the beginning of my W’s A. I wanted to tell the OM’s W that her H and my W were having an EA. The MC sided with my W and wholeheartedly disagreed that I should tell. That was less than one month into the PA which I thought was an EA. On the MCs recommendation I didn’t tell the OM’s W. 9 months later the A was discovered by me. During reconciliation my W told me that if I had gone to the OM’s W when I wanted to, the A would have been over right then and there. That was a costly mistake that I regret more than any regret I have ever had in my life. I wanted you to know this story so you see where I’m coming from and why I feel like I feel about forums. You may have had a totally different experience in MC if you have ever been, many here have.

I think the bottom line is we all need to seek help from many different areas of support. But we also need to understand each areas benefits and limitations. There is no one method that will restore a marriage; it is a very complicated situation that revolves around at least two very complicated people.
God Bless…

2LLP

Well, this is what differentiates you from an alcoholic. We DO NOT KNOW that our judgement is impaired. We DO come onto other peoples spouses and do things we would otherwise NEVER DO while sober.

Nottoday,

thank you very much. I enjoyed your post. That is where I'm at. The why of the affair. I'm not sure how together. It is very important that I do. My H needs to understand as much as I do.

I can sit here and think of at least ten times where my flirting with the OM crossed the line. I never thought about it before now. I will not lie to you or myself or my husband I liked the way it made me feel. I am getting older (36) and am starting to feel older. I am not sure if this has anything to do with it. I am just trying to deal with all the thoughts in my head.

It is getting harder for me to pick the my true feelings out of the jumbble of stuff that's in there. I don't want to find a quick and easy answer(okay I do)i know it is going to take a bunch of work on my part. i am willing and ready to doit.

I love my husband and family very much and as he stated earlier I can do it without him the simple fact is I don't want to.

ONS or other wise I was wrong. I wish I could have a do over.

Again thank you very much for your words .
Jessica

2LLP,
Thank you for posting again. I am goin gtotry the books you and your husband suggested in the beging of all this.

I will continue to post on MB. My husband may not. It has helped me already. I didn't realize how important the why was. I just thought that the fact that I was truely sorry would be enough. I see now that that isn't the case.

I need to do the work. I need to prove that I am a trust worthy person. Honesty is the best. I have tried to as honest with Jason. I realize to be honest with him first Ihave to be honest with myself.

Thank you for the words of wisdom and hope.

Jessica

I would like to thank someof you more level headed individuals for your responces.

In saying that, I am here one last time to tell you, that though my wife may stay, I will not! I tried sending an email to one of the moderators here, but it was bounced back as a bad email address so I will again air it here.

It seems that there are some very genuine people here. I hope that whatever my choice, that my wife finds the support and answers she needs here and that you all continue to provide such sage advice.

As for my self, I have already been called immature, a bad parent, and had one person taunt me about my feelings and this whole affair. I can not see how condemnation in anyway helps these types of situations. In fact, I in actuality, I have to almost discount anything any of these people have said to me in regaurds to any advice.

Anyway, I would like to thank everyone again, and I hope that all of the ehlp you provide to Jessica forwards her towards a better goal.

Vash

Wasvashesgirl2,

This is indeed an interesting comment from you speaking of your affair actions:



I suspect that you will come to find that the drinks did not cause you to have your affair. You we likely a “train wreak” waiting to happen. Your attraction to this man predated your evening of cocktails and that alone should suggest something. You may have in fact used the drinks as means to access something that you had already decided you wanted, the OM (other man). I’m sure you will think very carefully about this in the coming weeks.

As you begin to gather insights into what are the “true” causes of your affair you will move towards taking a more active and useful role in your husband’s healing. The thing that he needs most at this moment is the assurance that he is “safe” from a repeat performance. Words alone will not suffice although they too are important. It will take much, much more then just your promises that you will be a good girl. So I am sure you are likely wondering what else can a gal do outside of your solemn word of honor? Believe me when I suggest to you that there is much you can do.

At this early point you both are freshly wounded and desirous to begin some kind of healing. Your husband is currently by your side but he is filled with doubt, disappoint and anger. More then that though, he was likely shocked by how deep his love for you really was. After all, he stayed when all logical sense might have suggested that he run away as fast as possible, but his love for his wife has caused him to hesitate. I suspect your were no less shocked by your love for him. Your pleas for help and putting up with all this nonsense here is evidence of that. For the time being that rediscovered love will help carry you both forward for a period. Each of you is trying hard to accommodate the other as best you can. In Marriage Builders this is called “the giver”. Both of you are giving of yourself to benefit the other without regard to yourself.

Sadly, that can only last so long before it become too much of a burden to sustain. Before that happens you will want to have a “fix” in place. I am speaking of a sort of “plan” that will insure that the promise of fidelity can be logically expected by both you and most importantly, your husband. It is indeed the gift that keeps giving so it is important that you get it.

In order to bestow this gift or plan to your husband you must first discover the true root cause for your affair. Your plan will address the root cause with a set of corrective actions that are clearly verifiable to your husband. I wonder what they could be. I already know as you and your husband are merely textbook examples of countless others who have gone before you. Think very carefully of the things you can do that would make your husband feel secure. What things can he do to make you feel secure as this too is very important and should be part of the “plan”?

The time is now to begin a path back to recovery while simultaneously affair proofing your marriage.

Remember this, “If you both want to recover then it is all but assured”.

Mr. G

Oh yes, Vash,

I really hope you stay as the tools here are the best in the business. I will suggest that if you travel these pages very much you will soon discover the folks with the best insights. They are giving people who know “what’s what”.

The principles of Marriage Builders work best when both spouses understand and practice them so at least give that some consideration before you el-split-oh.

Besides that, how can your wife author a great recovery plan if you don’t understand its purpose? Help her so that she can help you. NO one person can do recovery by themselves.

It’s for both of you babe.

Mr. G

Mr.G,

Thank you. It is hard to have people saying that I would have done this regarless of drinking. Thant I had feelings for the OM before. It is truely making me feel sick.

Not because I think you are wrong but because I fear you may be right. It is hard for me the OM was my friend. Can those feelings get confussed? Can that have happened. I have cut off all contact with him.

I've always thought I've known how much I love my husband. There was a time when I thought I would die without him. He is everything to me. We have stuck together threw some pretty [censored] stuff. Always to come out stronger. My husband is not sure he can over come this. He is not sure he wants to. I can understand that. He is here for now because of the kids. He has been so kind to me. I can't tell you how much it means to me. I don't knoiw how he is doing it.

I want our marriage to work. I have said it before an dI'll say it again. I can and have made my way without him and if the need comes will do it again. I love him enough to let him go. If that's what he wants.

Thank you again for your words of wisdom.
Jessica

Vash:

Regardless of your decision with regards to your marriage and whether or not to ever come back here again, I for one will continue to support you and your wife and hope that things ultimately work out for the best.

I will probably get my own round of 2x4's for saying this but the main reason why I even joined on this thread was that I felt like that for whatever reasons, the thread seemed to be taking a turn that was helping no one. I understand how that you interpreted some of the comments to be direct insults to you and I also understand, knowing many of the other posters quite well, that all of their comments are heartfelt, genuine and were intended not to cause additional anguish but to hopefully provide some insight into your sitch from THEIR perspective.

I feel for you and your position right now. You are struggling with the same thoughts and decisions that all of us BS's faced after D-Day. Your D-day came in a way that would have been very difficult for most of us to handle. I have immense respect for you because even after catching your WW literally in the act, you are still a free man and not charged with any crimes or at least you have not disclosed them. That fact alone, in my mind discounts any thoughts that you are a bad parent, etc. Faced with the greatest adversity that any man can face in his physical life, you were able to use judgement to be able to keep the situation from being even worse.

That being said, I do think that there are boundary issues that you must address. Your boundaries or lack thereof has not made you responsible for your wife(s) betrayals. To the contrary, they own those actions and any consequences of those actions. You did not have a choice in whether they sought to fulfill their needs outside of the marital vows. You only choice is to now decide whether or not you can recommit to the marriage and make it even stronger than it has ever been or whether it is time to move forward with you life. Either decision is yours and yours alone. You are fortunate to have a wife that understands that her actions may result in her losing what she really loves...you but I see her already respecting your choice regardless of what that choice is. That doesn't mean that if she disagrees with your choice that she shouldn't do whatever is possible to continue and try and salvage your marriage. I for one will urge her to follow MB principles in doing that because I am a believer. I am an affair survivor and a better person today not because my wife chose to have an affair but because I made decisions in my life upon learning of her betrayal that allowed me to recover personally. After I got on track to personal recovery, the marital recovery was much easier.

I really believe that many of the comments that were made particularly in regard to whether or not flirting is an inherently evil thing for married people was not so much of a slam on you and your wife personally but was many MB'ers absolute conviction that since this is always one of the precepts to an affair, regardless of the nature of the flirt. MB treats all precepts to an A much like AA treats alcohol. You can't get drunk without alcohol so just prevent the opportunity from arising as a principal defense. You can't have an affair without things occurring first like mutual adoration, plutonic touches, etc. so the best defense for an A is just don't do them period.

I hope that you will continue to seek resources from all sources including MB in your personal recovery. This may be a little unfair but I believe that the number one priority for you at this point is to ensure that you are able to have a complete personal recovery and move forward with your life regardless of your decision on whether or not to stay married to your current spouse. I am not a believer that you should make that decision for the benefit of the children or for your WW or anyone else but you. If you make the right decision for you, in the long run all the others involved will benefit.

I would suggest a non-MB recovery tool in addition to those already suggested. Torn Usunder by Dave Carder is available in Christian bookstores and on places like Amazon. There are some differences in approaches between his and Harley's and many similarities. I thank god everyday for this forum and the resources provided by the Harley's...but some of the things were just too brushed over for me to accept and complete my personal recovery. Torn Usunder allowed me to see another point of view and ultimately come to some resolution with the issues.

The value of this forum for me is that we have many different points of view and almost all of them have some validity to them. ML is one poster with whom I somewhat disagree with more often than not however I have immense respect for her point of view. We just see things differently...not that she is right and I am wrong or vice versa...just that all of the things that make her and I different influence our thought processes to make the focus different. She has already stated that she is a recovering alcoholic and has substantial creditentials with regard to AA principles as well as MB principles. I have seen her work wonders with many here whom not only have to deal with an A but an addiction of some type. Problem is that while neither you or your wife may have any real issues with alcohol, she has heard the same things over and over from many here and I am sure on the circuit from those who have serious problems.

Early on after D-Day, I also stated that I was gone from this forum and that I had posted my last post. That was about 200 posts and one year ago. Early on I was frustrated sometimes with the advice that I got from others here. Often it was because it was coming from a poisoned BS who had never really had a personal recovery and wanted to poison my chances for that with his/her own misery. I still don't have much use for those posters and am not afraid to call those out when they spew more of their poison. But as I reflect, a lot of my frustrations came when some poster, with good intentions and only knowing part of the whole picture, kind of hit the nail on the head all too often. Not saying that this is the case with you but just try and realize that for those of us that have been around a little while...we have seen and heard the fogspeak many times over and usually the first thing for us to be able to help those people is to work through the fog, rationalizations and half truths before they can really start to work on their own marital or personal recovery.

NT

NT,

Thank you. I hope Jason reads that. Last night I told him that I wouldn't post anymore. That I would try to find a different site. He told me to stop saying things that I thought he wanted to hear.

I woke up this morning and read the new posts and found them helpful.

What I need now is a book or something to help me find out why. Do you or anyone eles out there know of one.

Thank you,
Jessica

Jessica, the best book I have read for the Wayward is "After the Affair" by Janis Abrahms. She does an awesome job of getting into the whys for the WS and gives the BS POV as well.

Thank you very much.

Jess:

I understand that it is hard...it is even harder for a BS to try and understand how that could have happened. But the process is for both of you to try and understand and accept what happened knowing that you never get a re-do but implementing measures to ensure that history is not repeated by either one somewhere down the road.


I am not sure that this will be much comfort but those feelings of sickness most likely won't go away for a while. The good news is that when the emotional high/low is taken over by literally physical sickness symptoms, it probably means that you are no longer just skimming the surface of all of your feelings and now are really getting down to the dirty work of recovery and ownership. My wife occassionally has those same feelings. At first they were just purely emotional...she felt bad or she felt guilty, but when we really started from the bottom on our rebuilding process was when those guilt, shame, digust feelings manifested not only emotionally but physically as well. Having an affair is a shameful, disgusting business that anyone with any moral fiber is sure to fell guilty about. That is the bad news.

The other good news is that I really believe from your posts that you are ready to dig down however deep it takes to understand why you allowed yourself to be put in this position. Taking that step allows you to start your personal recovery. If you really work hard at applying all MB principles, regardless of the ultimate outcome of your marriage, you will find that like most other WS you are a worthy, good person that has the capacity to share true love and intimacy with someone...hopefully with Vash, but as I said on the other post, that is his choice, not yours.

I think you are probably closer to understanding the why of the affair than you may realize. All women are vain as they age (ducking for the incoming 2x4's) and most would rate admiration as one of their most important EN's. Personally, I have found that most women have much more wholesome beauty in their more mature years (40+) than they ever had in their hard body, pre-children years. Surprisingly, I think that if you took a poll of men who had some maturity to them, a majority would agree with this. But the media and society has convinced us that beauty is reserved only for the young. I have found in learning about affairs that almost all women who get involved in an affair have an unmet need for admiration or have low self esteem or both. Those especially vunerable seem to be the 30 something that has a very successful husband and seemingly everything in the world to be thankful for but inside yearn for some undivided attention and admiration. Because their husband is often so involved with his success, and then you have kids that have to be carted around, and ballgames and bills, etc. the wife who once was so proud of the head spinning attention that she used to get prior to marriage and affairs starts to at least subconsciously think that she will never get attention again and that her lot in life is just to be a mother who is best when she doesn't rock the boat and unheard from. They ASSUME that their husband cannot fill that need for them or no longer wants to. After all, the media portrays the successful husbands lot in life to be winning over the young office secretary and just drudging through their home live as an existence, not a life.

Most FWW ask for that need to be met by their husband but once again with the kids, the job, the bills...the husband listens but doesn't hear them. That confirms to the soon to be WW just what she thought, that she is no longer a sex object to her husband, just a live support system for a vagina and a mother to their kids. There is no romance, no excitement, etc. The door is now opened for an affair to happen. Doesn't matter if you were the preachers daughter or the class slut in high school, you are equally vunerable to an affair at this point.

You asked if you could have confused the OM actions as that of a friend and not a predator. Yes, absolutely you could have seen his actions as that of a friend...a friend that wanted to ultimately get down you pants. I was sitting on the porch the other night and watching a big spider that had built a beautiful web in just a day. The spider is just like your friend. He was their for a joke or comfort or admiration when you needed him. In the spider web, along come a fly and after a long day of work rolling around in horsesh*t decides to rest his weary wings for a while. The spider was there, continuing to ready her web. The fly (you as the affair target) lands on the edge of the web and just sits for a while. The spider sees the fly and acts like everything is normal, maybe the fly even thought about how beautiful the web was. Maybe the fly even kind of liked the danger of being close to the spider without getting caught. Who knows for sure but the fly flies off the web, makes a b-line U-turn and flies right into the middle of the web. Two minutes later and the spider not only had the fly completely under wraps in the web but was starting to consume it. The moral of the story...beware of the spiderwebs in life, they may look beautiful but in reality are designed to feed the spider.

You have already admitted that at least ten times prior to the consumation of the affair that your flirting went across the line. You also admitted that you liked how it felt. Regardless of why you liked it, you were allowing the OM to fill your emotional needs every time you landed on his spider web. You were engaged in an emotional affair long before this turned into a one night stand. Perhaps the introduction of alcohol was just the nerve deadener that you needed in order to make the b-line U-Turn right into the center of the web. Tough medicine, I know but something that you really need to think about and discuss with Mr. Vash.

At some point, you will need to share what your most important emotional needs are and how that Mr. Vash can fill those needs. If he would have been filling those prior to the A, perhaps it would have taken more than just a few drinks to convince you to jump into the middle of OM's beautifully woven spider web. Is it his fault that he wasn't filling those needs prior to the PA? Partly it was his fault and partly yours. Did you tell him that you had those needs? Did you tell him how it made you feel when others showed you the attention that you craved? That is where radical honesty comes in to all of this. Too bad that I didn't find MB just shortly after I got married many moons ago. If I had of, I very well may have prevented my wife allowing herself to cross that line because I would have been able to identify what needs were not being filled and fill those for her. Does that justify her having an affair? Nope. Does it shift part of the blame of the affair onto me? Nope. Do I have to recognize that I was just as guilty as her for creating the environment where an affair was not only possible but likely for one of us? Absolutely. But I wasn't able to get to this point until that I was well into the recovery process.

My best advice to you at this point for both your personal and marital sake is as follows:

1) Study the emotional needs questionaire found on this website. Identify what needs you got filled from OM that your husband didn't leading up to the A. Also identify what his most important needs are and work your butt off to try and fill those for him. This is the best way that a WW can show to her BH that she wants to be a different person than the one that started an A.

2) Continue to be radically honest with him about everything. There are still some things he wants to know and understand. He has to process what has happened to him (again) and what led you to that inflection point...the point where you decided that you were willing to risk it all for a fling in the hay with your OM friend. If he hadn't of caught you in the act, would you be continuing to see your OM now? Before you answer that you have to really dig deep and honestly understand that the sex in this A was the inevitable end of your EA that started while you were perfectly sober.

3) Continue to assure him that you will do whatever in order to save your marriage. I can tell that your posts are from your heart and that this was not an exit affair and that you do love your husband. I can tell that and I have never even met you or seen you. Your husband can tell that as well and that is the only reason why he hasn't kicked you to the curb already. But going through his mind, a million times a day is how could someone who felt that way about me risk it all in order to be with someone else. He knows, you know and I know that alcohol was just a contributing factor to let the guard down. It really has nothing to do with the decision that you made before that night to get a little closer to the Spider's web. You have to be there to assure him that you both can make some changes that will prevent that from happening again. Sometimes the best assurance that you can give him is just being there to comfort him through his undescribable pain right now.

4) If he asks, you answer. I read Mr. Vash's post about the very unique action that only you two do and he wants to know if you did it with OM. I can honestly understand where he is coming from and think that he believes that therein lies the distinction between whether this was just an accident or as Mr. G says just the train wreck that started to derail many days, weeks, months even years before it finally came off the tracks. I don't think that Mr. Vash will find that distinction once he knows the answer to this question and you may not be able to even answer it, but in order for him to start his recovery he must know you are an absolute open book...willing to bear your soul to him for a chance to make it up. Once he starts to believe that you are withholding nothing and working towards being all you can be in your marriage, the sordid details become less important.

For me personally, I wish that I knew less than I know. But it was impossible for me to get to this place without first knowing that there was not another major revalation just around the next bend. I had to accept that another man had sex with my wife...period. Does it really matter whether that sex was in missionary or 69? But once that I was convinced that she would tell when I asked...I quit asking...if for no other reason than I really didn't want to know the answer and knew that I would if I asked.

Keep fighting this battle regardless of the temperment of Mr. Vash. He will have his highes and lows through the process, nothing you or anyone else can do to change this...just be there for him and support his decision regardless of whether that is to stay or go but understand that if he decides not to continue working on his marriage and you want to stay in that marriage, applying MB principles and fighting for that marriage will make you a better person even if it doesn't save the marriage.

NT

Mrs. Vash...still trying to get you to respond to my posts. I think we can help you find the "why" but I will wait until you are ready to respond.

nottoday, Jess, and Mr Vash

I think the explanation of the "why it could happen" that nottoday provided had alot of truth. I can feel the assimilated wisdom, learning, responsibilities and pain that was expressed. This post is very helpful and right on the $ for steps to take now.

I don't know if the pain is multiplied in LTA's (like my fww's) but many have healed from far worse situations than this.Time and knowledge are your friends. Try not to act in haste and repent in liesure. penaltybox

Mortarman,

I'm sorry. I did read your first post this morning. It was one of the reasons I stayed with this fourm. So you asked for it. Here it is.

I have been friends with OM for about 2 years. We worked together for a while. Stayed in touch threw mutual friend of ours.

We always flirted. It's the kind of interaction that we shared. He would say the stupidest stuff to me and it would make me laugh.

He made me feel good. I'm not sure why. I guess it was the way he said thing. It didn't cross the line until about a month ago.

We would myspace each other and after a party one night I myspaced him and did my whole flirty thing and his responce to me was just as flirty but it had an uncomfortable edge to it. He had carried it to far. Instead of telling my husband I deleted it and tried to convince myself that it was still harmless flirting. It wasn't the same. It made me feel uncomfortable at the same time I liked it. I knew at that point it was wrong. So the next time I saw him was at a football get together. That is when the A happened.

As for how I felt about my husband at the time. My H has always made me feel like the most beautiful woman in the world. We are having some money problem at this time. Nothing to major. It had us both stressed to the max. He felt like our lives where a wreck. Everything about them. I told him that it wasn't true. So I doubled my efforts and tried hard to make sure that his house wasn't a wreck. It made him feel better. We had a wonderful sex life. We where great friends. I just love him. No big problem at thst time other than money.

I know the answer is some where inside of me. I need to ge to it. Thank you for all the help.

Jessica

Nottoday:

You Rock!

Your post to Vash is amazing, and I think it isn't the first time you have had to post it in similar form to either a WS or BS. I was the WS and your description of the steps needed to recover a M is right on.

Vash: You just described the anatomy of an A to a "T" You may have had to "dance" for two years to consummate, but it was the OM's goal. You stepped carefully on the Spider Web until the OM pounced. And you knew it was coming, you had the myspace posting announcing his intentions. The details are not important, the intent was there, and you knew it. The next time you meet, too much drinking and money troubles drop your defenses and the EA becomes a PA. Your EA started anywhere from 12- 18 months before the actual ONS occured.

Now, none of the above is to be critical of you. Where you stand in the road now, you can see the path you took to get here. You can probably recognize the forks in the road that caused you to get so far away that the A happened. It took you 2 years to get to the EA, it only took me six weeks, but it went on for 4.5 years. But, you can review your road and find the forks and what was going on in your life at that time to identify the problems, concerns, issues that led you up the A road and not the M road. That is where the rebuilding blocks of your M can be found.

Some great posts by others here and you should heed what they have said. I would like to take this in a methodical kind of way. So, what I want to do is not so much tell you what happened or tell you what to do, as to help you figure this out yourself.

You see, you know what happened. You know what you did is wrong. You knew it before you did it. You knew it while you did it. So, we are going to figure out the "why" here. Okay?


I hope you have read the Harley stuff on this website. His books...his articles. I hope you understand that these two paragraphs tell me that what I said about you and your husband is right. That you are NOT unique!! Have you read all of the stuff here? Do you understand the love bank, and emotional needs? Do you understand how people that were committed to a person, all of a sudden fall head over heels for someone else? This is KEY to understanding the "why."


He was meeting at least one emotional need. Have you heard that adultery is like any other addiction? That is why Dr. Harley treats it like an addiction. When another person meets emotional needs (making deposits in yoru love bank), he may eventually make enough deposits to make you want to know more. Even though your rational mind knows it is wrong...and deep down, you know you shouldnt do it. But the addiction just gets stronger as he feeds the bank. As was said above...this didnt happen at a football game a week ago. Think on this a second, okay? When did the affair begin?


This pretty much answers my question. It began with the flirting. The reason it felt good was that he was meeting an emotional need AND you were doing things that werent proper. You were going to the edge, seeing how close you could get without "going too far?" Right?


Right here is where it turned for the worse. Had you shown this to your husband, it id doubtful that this would have happened! This goes to the Harley principle of Radical Honesty. Please read up on it.


Wow! You just posted what EVERY addict says. They hate the drug, but like the way it makes them feel. They know it is wrong, but are drawn to the drug anyway. You think maybe Dr. Harley is right about this addiction thing?


I knew it was wrong...and at this point, I did it. Let me ask another question. Could it be that you knew the flirting, etc was wrong all of the time...but you played the boundary game...but at this point, he had crossed the last boundary with his MySpace post? Could it be that once you had realized you were in trouble, it was too late to stop it?


I believe you...and so does he. But....I want you to think about this very hard because after figuring out how this guy so easily blew through your boundaries, I want you to be critical of yoru marriage. I want you to think about those emotional needs, and why you soaked up the ones this guy was meeting. And look at those needs, and describe to us how your husband was doing in meeting them. BE HONEST!!! By understanding this, you will understand how to improve your relationship...and your husband will feel empowered. By staying with the "we had a great relationship, I screwed up, who knows why" defense of this, then he will nto have answers...and always will feel insecure. And so will you!!


Jessica...the answer is very evident here. It isnt deep inside. Dep inside, you love your husband. Deep inside, you knew this was wrong all along. This isnt a deep-inside kind of thing. This is actually a very rudimentary, surface kind of thing.

Look...you are NOT defined by this action. You will be defined by what you do with it. We all fail at times. Sometimes they are BIG failures! It isnt the failure that defines you...it is what you do with that failure.

I know you want to figure this out. Some of the questions above are meant to help you see this. Those of us that have been thru this...especially the former wayward spouses (FWS) on here, can see exactly what the issues are. And as your husband pointed out...we dont know you.

But we do know about marriage. And adultery. And its causes. Satan has been using the same worn out tricks since the beginning. And we continue to fall for it.

As you realize all of this, you will finally exclaim "it was that simple? I fell that easily? it was that obvious?" Yes, Jessica...it all is that simple.

So is the solutions. Many on here have heard me say this time and again...but you both are about to learn the difference between simple and easy. Figuring this out will be simple...but not easy. Moving forward will be simple (there are steps to recovery on here you both should read), but not easy. You will find the road to a marriage you never though possible will be simple, but it will not be easy.

So, let's get the answers to the questions above. Let's get you and your husband knowledgable as the rest of us have had to...in the ways of marriage and adultery.

You two are actually in a great place right now. You have a chance to really do something here that will change your marriage into somethign that is rock solid and something you would have never gotten were it not for this mess.

But first you have to understand all of this. I look forward to your responses.

Some great stuff by Mortarman. I would like to supplement and perhaps reinforce some of the things he said.

I had mentioned in my last post to you that Vash and you are merely a simple “textbook” case of infidelity. Although I sure don’t mean to trivialize your experience I suggest that it is very important to both of you to understand that almost ALL acts of infidelity cover very little new ground. It is because of this that the marriage builder concepts are so apropos to recovery. Keep this thought in mind as you travel, as it will provide a bit of comfort to know that thousands and thousands of couples just like Vash and you go on to not only survive infidelity but also actually build better marriages in the end. (Insert smiley face here)

In many cases of infidelity it falls to the betrayed spouse to initially do what is termed the “heavy lifting”. That means this: Often times the wayward spouse has developed a strong attraction (that strong attraction is referred to as “fog”) to the other person. That attraction or fog needs to be broken before any recovery can even begin to take place. Imagine how tough it is for the betrayed spouse to not only have absorb the horror of being betrayed but then to have to win back their spouse from the arms of another person. Uggh!

Happily, you have no significant fog to recover from. From your description you had a pre-existing attraction to this other man that was fueled forward from acts of ongoing flirtatious exchanges. Both you and your husband dismissed these flirtatious exchanges as harmless acts of fun. It likely created interest in your own marriage by adding a level of complexity that might have seemed a tiny bit dangerous and exciting. Now, here you are today, posting for help in an infidelity forum; you and a hundred other men and women just like you. The good news is that physical affair took place before any strong emotional attachment occurred, hence little fog.

Because you have no strong emotional connection with this other man it will fall to YOU to be the “heavy lifter” in the recovery. It will be you who pushes “radical honesty”, transparency, policy of joint agreement, discovery of yours and your husband strongest emotional needs, and whatever else might make up your “plan”. You are the straw that stirs the drink.

Because you are the heavy lifter does not mean that Vash has no role in this recovery. Initially, It is his responsibility to attempt recovery with you or without you. You have most certainly given him good reason to end this marriage and if he did no one would blame him. Still, he will have great responsibility should he elect to recover with you. Primarily once he makes the decision to stay then he jointly accepts responsibility for the success or failure of recovery. He will give you your report card grading you on your efforts. He will help guide you so that your efforts are not wasted and best allow him to feel safe and secure with the way you live your day-to-day life.

Have you read this site to understand the concept of the “love bank”? Your plan, his commitment to recovery and all that follows should be designed to aid in making “love bank” deposits. Always try to bounce the things you are doing or not doing off of this concept. It will pay dividends (no pun intended).

The Mortarman asked you to examine and identify your greatest emotional needs. He wants you to examine them because in almost all affairs the adulterers are stroking those needs and it feels goooood. Now here is the most important part of YOUR most important emotional needs, ready…..THEY ARE ALSO YOUR GREATEST WEAKNESS. What will you do with this information?

Before I close something you said popped out at me,



Although it may not have been your intention this simple statement is one of accepted defeat. If that is the way you feel, then why should he stay? If you say, “for the kids” I will respond by saying “that is not enough”. Examine the following statement as an alternative to yours,

“I no longer want to make my way without him. I love him to much to let him go.”

Both statements might be true but one is filled with despair and the other is promise. In its pure form love is a very selfish act. In great marriages this kind of selfishness makes huge love bank deposits for each partner. In dysfunctional marriages it makes huge love bank withdraws.

I hope you think about some of what was said,

Mr. G