Melody, Here is what I see...

Having read her first post and then the subsequent posts by both her and her husband, it seemed clear that they both went through great pains to state that their life is not plagued by alcoholism. If this is indeed the case or not it cannot be determined in a few short posts. At this point it seems logical to treat “infidelity” and not “alcoholism”. Alcohol did not cause this woman to have an affair.

Your ability to conquer alcoholism is a huge achievement. I cannot imagine what it must be like to have to take, “one day at a time”. Conversely, I would guess that an alcoholic would have trouble understanding how someone could have a glass of wine with dinner without drinking the whole bottle.

Melody, perhaps I’ve misunderstood your posts but it seemed that you were insisting that alcohol was the major underlying issue when it seemed that there just wasn’t sufficient information to draw such a conclusion especially to draw such a conclusion over the posters objections.

Jessica,

I sincerely hope that you and your husband continue to work towards recovering from this tragedy. Like I said if you both really want to recover then your success is all but assured. The reward is huge so I urge both of you to at least pursue it in the short term. Give some of the Marriage Builder concepts a test drive. Discuss what seems to work and what doesn’t. Oh, by the way, one of the most productive actions that my wife and I did to recover was to consult with a “PRO” marriage counselor. We used Steve Harley via telephone and it was extremely beneficial. It taught me things I never knew and I thought I knew everything. Use whomever you want, just make sure you use someone who will build your relationship and not destroy it.

Ten days past discovery is too new. Give your relationship some time. Like I said, this is “great stuff”, the “real deal”.

Mr. G

Okay folks...thought I would jump in here.

Vash and Mrs. Vash...step back a minute. Take a deep breath. I want you to listen for a sec.

First off, the principles used on this website work. Dr. Harley has better success at repairing marriages hurt by infidelity than anyone in the country. So, you really BOTH need to do your homework!! You need to read his books. You need to maybe read some of the different threads on here and see how some marriages made it...and others did not.

You need to first realize...and repeat with me..."We are NOT unique!!" Because you are not. I have been here because of my own issues...and then to help others...since 2002. I have seen and heard it all! So have many others here that have and will try to help you. They do so for one reason only...because they have been through it and they want both of you to get through this. So, before you begin to become angry with anyone here...even some that post things that might not be correct...please understand WHY they are taking the time to become involved. Okay?

From there, let's get to the first issue I have heard over and over on your thread here. "You do not know me." Well, no...none of us really know each other. Not personally. But those that have been on here, been thru this...and have learned the principles here...do know adultery. Do know the WHYs of it. Do know how to stop it. And do know how to protect against it.

Vash...do you know your wife? You said you do. But in this thread, you were surpirsed that she committed adultery when she had shown previously she was against it. So, how well do you know your wife? I dont want an answer to the question! I want you to see that "you dont know me personally" really has no bearing on figuring out this mess your wife and you have created and how to get thru it and beyond it. Believe me from someone who didnt believe a word these people said when I first got here!!

Now, I said that your wife AND you created this mess. And you both did! Hers is obvious. Your contribution is less so. I want to first repeat what your wife said...she and she alone is responsible for her adultery. Do not take on one ounce of responsibility for her behavior. Got it?

But...these things do not happen in a vacuum. They do not happen by "accident." Adultery is ALWAYS a willful act of betrayal. The issue here is to find out "why." What in your marriage made your wife, whether drunk or not, want to be with this guy (Mrs. Vash...I will get to you in a minute, okay?)? What did you do to contribute to the environment where this was possible? Where your wife would feel attracted to another guy and want to act upon it?

Let me say something here...because I know what your response to my questions will be. You want to say that everyone has attractions to others or something like that...right? Okay...in my 13 year marriage...have I ever felt attracted to another woman? Sure. Did I ever WANT to act upon it? Nope. Actually, the attraction to this other person made me want to get closer to my wife...and further away from that woman. This is the way it should be.

When an attraction like that leads to a spouse thinking about it, or flirting with that person, or going the whole way into adultery...then there was an issue in the marriage...as well as a character flaw with the spouse that cheated. My wife cheated. I did not. Why did she...and why didnt I? The conditions in our marriage were the same for both of us. After I found out, I could have justified leaving her or getting into a revenge adultery. Why did she...and why didnt I?

Vash, you cant answer the "why did she?" She has to. But what you need to do is take a very close look at what environment you have set up for your wife to live in. I used to think flirting was harmless. I now dont have conversations with married women except in the office and in group settings with their spouses there or involved. And NO flirting.

Why? Why cant a little "harmless" flirting be done? Because it is NEVER, EVER harmless! It is disrespectful to your marriage. It may lead the other party to assume things you dont assume. And maybe, just maybe, it will lead to pushing boundaries so far...that with a little alcohol (for example), you wake up one morning wondering what happened!

You need to do an inspection of you, Vash. On how protective you are of your boundaries...of your marriage. You also need to understand what your wife's most important emotional needs are (get her to take the questionaire on thsi site) and meet those top 5 consistently.

Vash, this stuff is NOT rocket science. Satan has been doing this for centuries...and we all fall for the same things over and over. Your wife did not commit adultery with your "friend" out of some accident or indiscretion!! She did so because of things in your marriage that would allow her to think that this was a viable alternative. She was not raped, right? Then she wanted to do it...no matter the level of alcohol.

What boundaries will you set up to prevent this from happening again? If you both are serious about moving forward and finding a way to affair-proof your marriage, then I see two things that have to be addressed ASAP! First, stop the flirting! It is a communications technique...for single people! You are married...act like it! You may want to discredit those that are saying to stop by saying it doesnt hurt...but by everything you have posted here so far, this is THE single biggest reason your wife and your "friend" acted upon their attraction. It's like a car that should have a red light in front of it. But, she turns it green sometimes (flirting). Then with the car barreling at the intersection...and her drunk...she doesnt even see the light and blows right thru what should be a red light.

The safest thign to do is not to play this game.

Second, I am not claiming alcoholism here. So, dont jump on me. But, it does appear that your wife is impulsive when drinking. Sorry to say...but leaving a jacket does not set off the same alarms as me about ready to jump in bed with another woman. One is an act of forgetfulness. The other is an immoral act with which we all should have boundaries that keep us from crossing it.

Let me use a better analogy. Let's say I am drunk...and I wander into my neighbors yard. I am guilty of trespassing...but there was really no harm to anyone. So, it is wasy to see me forgettign where the property line is while I am drunk.

But, if I am drunk and I wander onto a interstate highway, after jumping a huge fence, after signs saying do not enter...after knowing the danger to me and others...then I have a different issue here. The alcohol has allowed me to over ride even the most stringent boundaries. And that IS a problem!!

So, my suggestion is that if alcohol isnt a problem in your mind or Mrs. Vash's mind...then it shouldnt be a problem giving it up. Right? Why take the chance?

Now, Mrs. Vash...

Seems liek I was beating you up here...but I really wasnt! Both of you are coming at this from different perspectives. I was just talking, one BS to another.

You are a WS and thus you have a different outlook on this. So, I want to hit on a few things here...

First, I dont know if you are telling the truth or not about whether or not you have given your husband all of the info he has asked for. I will tell you this...the quickest way to have your husband walk out that door forever is to keep ANYTHING from him or to lie about ANYTHING from now on! So, if you are hiding something...I advise you to come clean. Many times, the sex isnt the worst blow to the BS. It is the lies. And I am mostly talking about the lies AFTER they find out.

Many WSs say they want to "protect" their BS from the nasty truth. But what they dont understand is that you arent protecting them at all. There was a great post once that I saved. I will post it here, so you can understand why it is that BSs ask the questions we do...and why we need the truth.


I wont expound any further on that...as I think you understand.

Mrs. Vash...others have tried to get you to begin to see that the night in question was not one random indiscretion. There is something deeper here. Something you need to find out about yourself.

We can help. Many that have posted to you, including former WSs, are interested in taking that walk with you. To help you discover what this was, why it happened...and how to move forward.

If you fight that...this will happen again. If you trivialize what I said about the alcohol above, this will happen again. You say "No it wont!! I know better now. I wont everm ake that mistake again." But, didnt you say in your vows, didnt you say this to yourself and your spouse before this happened?

One truism is that once you cross a boundary...it makes it EASIER to cross it again!!!

So, what boundaries will you have to erect to make sure this neverh appens again? Well, you wont know what boundaries to put up until you know what the problem is. And we can help with that.

So, you can blow this place off as just another blog. Or meddling people who dont know either of you. That you are unique and that we couldnt possibly understand this.

And you both will miss the unique opportunity you have RIGHT NOW to use this very bad thing to put in place a marriage that will last a lifetime.

Your choice. I, and others, are here if you chose to take that route.

Again, I think if you read the thread carefully you will see that she does state that her drinking was INSTRUMENTAL in her decision to have an affair. She stated that she would have never done so if she were sober. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to discern that drinking is a problem and should be avoided if it leads to destructive behavior. Hopefully, one does not have to be an alcoholic to understand this. She recognizes this herself and has "sworn off" drinking for that very reason.


And your guess would be wrong. We don't for a minute think that everyone is LIKE we are. We are not retarded, just simple alcoholics. My EXPERIENCE and KNOWLEDGE in alcoholism do not warrant dismissal, as you tried to do. Who knows more about alcoholism and drinking problems than one who has been there and done that? But we do know a drinking problem when we see it. And when one acts in ways that are destructive and counter to their morals when drunk, we know there is a problem that needs to be addressed.

Do you dismiss your car mechanic as biased because he has a long, successful track record of fixing cars? I would hope not.

But, that is all beside the point. My experience, or lack thereof, does not address the question: is it WISE to operate in an environment the promotes drinking when one cannot handle drinking themselves?

Great post, Mortarman! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

My personal experinece with recovered alcoholics.... I was married to one many years ago... is that they see a drinking problem in others when none is present. That does not mean that is what is going on here... but I frankly do not see that this couple has a problem with drinking. Alcohol affects a persons judgement. This woman admitted as much but it does not imply that she has a drinking problem. It means she had a problem that night with her drinking and that it was a contributing factor in her infidelity.... not the cause. JMHO.

And my experience with non-alcoholics is they often don't recognize clear problems because of their lack of experience and discernment. They are blind to red flags that a more experienced person can see.

But it does not take an "alcoholic" to discern that if someone gets so drunk that they do something so destructive as have an affair, that they have a problem with alcohol and should avoid it. It just takes a little common sense.

Common sense would dictate that if drinking contributed to the affair, as she says it did, then drinking should be avoided.

As the poster told us, she would have NEVER done it had she been sober. Anyone who doesn't see this very simple truth is blind. Even she recognizes that she avoid drinking, even though some on this thread do not.

Ok so if drinking is not a problem, nor is flirting, and sex is just sex then why are you two really here looking for answers?

Apparently, the only "problem" here is MelodyLane and her big mouth audacity in pointing out that drinking might be a slight problem if you have an affair while under the influence. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Melodylane I can not win with you. I have sworn off drinking. I do understand that while being drunk I made a bad chose. I am not minimizing any of that. I would not have crossed the line sober to adultrey. I am not placing blame on anyone or anything but myself. I did have a problem with drinking that night. So to insure that it will not happen again. I will not drink again. It's that easy for me. I have never been a big drinker. My only exception to any of this is I am not an alcoholic or a problem drinker. Do you see the difference? If not it's not a big deal. I do and so does my H. That is what matters most.

I do think that my flirting was incredibly destructive to my relaqtionship. It started out as a gmae played back and forth for 2 years. Never crossing the line that was comfortable for my marriage. While drunk I carried the "game" to far. Not such a fun game anymore.

Do I understand it? No. That is why I am here. Why I am reading books. Why I keep coming back to this site for help. I want to understand why I did it. I do not ever want to do this again. It is a ugly thing.

I understand that I need to work on myself and I am willing to do the work.

Thank you all again.
Jessica

Jessica, that is exactly what I am saying. I have no idea if you are an alcoholic or not. I don't know. But the important point is that you recognize that you DO have a problem. You wouldn't need to "swear it off" if you didn't.

If you would rather call it a baloney sandwich than a "problem" that is fine by me. It is all the same as long as you recognize that drinking is a baloney sandwich that is to be avoided. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Oh my goodness. Now this is just getting silly. I have siad over and again that flirting is a problem. I didn't recognize it as one before. You live and learn. I have said that I understand that the drinking was a problem for me on that night. I also said that I would't be drinking anymore. I don't beleive sex is just sex. My husband said that. He was trying to point out that the pain I caused was coming from the lies.

I honestly have control over "my drinking problem". It isn't a problem for me. I was simply trying to point out that my job in a restraunt as a bartender would not be hard for me. I have been in the service industry all my life. It is where I do my best. I do not tend bar in a club or in a bar. We have rules about drinking. The rules are you can't do it. So it will not be a problem for me. That and having it implied that I was an alcoholic where my issues. Not the fact that alchol was a problem for me on that night. We all know tha tit is. That isn't important. Why I did what I did is. That's where I need help.

Again thanks.

Mrs. Vash,

Okay. You have said you wont drink again. Let's now drop that for a bit everyone. We may have to approach it again later.

So, did you read my post? I want you to describe here, pre-adultery, what the relationship was like with this guy. I also would like you to describe your marriage at the time.

Be honest!!!!!!!!! Dont leave out anything.

Mr. Vash, it may be time for a little while, that you start your own thread. You need to be able to vent and work thru things that should be your own. Same goes with your wife. She is confused, and as such, she will try to reason thru things for awhile. You will see some things written that will hurt. Or you might feel justified in posting in order to "correct the record." But in order to move thru the process, she is going to have to feel safe enough to be able to say whatever she needs to...so she can untangle this mess.

Same goes with you. You will have a lot of anger...a lot of questions. It wont help hearing this stuff. It also wont help right now to hear how your wife feels about your anger or hurt. After all, she is the one that caused it! So, you need your own thread right now in order to work thru things.

Anyway, Mrs. Vash...let's get started!

Really? So, an alcoholic... and not someone that lived with one would be more able to see the signs of trouble? I don't think so....the view from a partner of an alcoholic is much clearer and just as experienced.

MelodyLane I never said that you had a big mouth. I think you have very stong opinoins. And amybe a big mouth. My mariagge problems are why I 'm here. I didn't realize I had any. Well besides the normal everyday problems.

I need to find out what in myself caused this. I will look hard in the next few days. My husband went back to work today for the first time. It's strange to be here al by myself with my self. Gives me time to think.

I want to give him all the answers he needs. I am being honest with him. Now I need to be honest with myself.
Jessica

Sorry, but you are dead wrong. The REASON that AA is so successful is because it is very HARD, almost impossible, to fool another alcoholic. Generally speaking, a normal person is blind at spotting the signs that signal a drinking problem, because they cannot relate. This is why alcoholics are so successful at fooling their spouses and family members so long. An alcoholic, on the other hand, KNOWS these signals because he has BEEN THROUGH IT. In other words, ya can't [censored] a bullshitter. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Who in their right mind would argue with that statement? I whole heartily agree. What I question is the “direct” connection between alcohol and infidelity. You see, I don’t believe that alcohol is a cause of infidelity any more then I believe that daytime is a cause of nighttime simply because one follows the other.

First she said:


Then she said:


Then she said:


Then she said:


Then her husband said:


Finely she said:


All this in the span of a number of posts that can be counted on your fingers. Sadly, these folks may disappear from these boards and I wouldn’t blame them though I hope that does not happen. I think Mortorman contributed with a wonderful initial response. I would be most interested in JL’s opinion of what the next steps these folks should persue.

Mr. G

Jessica, I know you didn't say I had a big mouth [even though I am the first to admit it! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />] but I also know your heart is in the right place. You wouldn't be here if you weren't sincerely seeking help and I do applaud you for that. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

MrG, I am completely baffled about your objection is and wonder if you missed this:

MelodyLane: "So, you are admitting that you would have done this if you were STONE SOBER?"


She does admit that she would have NEVER DONE THIS unless she was drunk, so it can't be argued that this had nothing to do with drinking. It clearly DID. I suspect, like you, that this not the only contributing factor, but I have never said otherwise. You said that.

What does need to be recognized, and some seem to want to gloss over this for some strange reason, is that drinking is a PROBLEM here and should be avoided. When one acts in very destructive ways, in violation of their conscience, under the influence, then they should AVOID drinking. Its real simple.

I have been following this thread since inception and glad to say that it is back on track...at least veering towards the right track.

I am also glad that Vash and Mrs. Vash are here and although I understand some of their hesitations with these types of forums, I urge you both to stick around a while and with the help of all here, maybe we can provide some insight that will best case scenario allow Mr. and Mrs. Vash to start the rollercoaster road towards recovery and worst case basis at least provide some tools that will allow them both to have a personal recovery and give them ideas on how to prevent this from occurring yet again down the road. Mr. and Mrs. Vash, welcome to MB.

This whole post kind of hit me harder than most sitches because I saw too much similarity to my my sitch that occurred many years ago. Without rehashing all of the details but providing adequate background for my comments, my FWW more than eleven years ago, at a party, had more to drink than she should have and ultimately wound up having what started as a ONS turned occassional LTA. Adding to the similarity is that my FWW is generally impulsive but prior to her A probably the most moralistic and "least likely (or so I thought) type of person that you would be convinced would never engage in this type of conduct. Any of this sound kind of familiar Mr. Vash?

It would have been so easy for me to rationalize her actions as just irrational actions that occurred while under the influence and assisted by her impulsiveness. I probably would have taken this approach had it only been a ONS. However, that ONS gone uncaught turned into a romantic relationship that lasted about nine months with one little phone call a week after the event. It would have been so easy for me to rationalize this as just an impulsive, impaired judgement that happened. This is where that I see Mrs. Vash at right now.

But once I found out that this continued for another nine months on a long distance basis right under my nose without me even suspecting anything, I thought that it was the end of everything. However, I stand before you today as someone who has never been more in love with my wife, as someone that has not only seen changes in her but with myself that has allowed us to finally realize true intimacy in our relationship, and of someone who is much less judgemental of all people and acts than I once was. I owe this to my wife who finally committed to changing her behaviors that contributed to her ability to cross that line in the first place, several really good IC's who worked me through the roadblocks of recovery, and my "friends" here at MB, none of whom I have ever met and some that I don't even often agree with but whether WS or BS we all share the bond that our situation was not unique.

Our recovery would have never happened if I would have allowed myself to rationalize my wifes behavior by her being under the influence at the point of attack and by her character being somewhat impulsive. It was really hard for both of us but we only really got started with our recovery when the following had occurred:

1) We committed to a radical honesty policy. There is no protection for your spouse when you decieve. RH started for us really as an excuse that I used to pry the information out of my wife about the affair that she had compartmentalized and hidden from me for many years. Today, we use it as our principal weapon to protect our spouse not only from affairs and other detours to our marriage but to realize the true intimacy that can only be achieved when there is nothing between us that the other doesn't know.

2) Getting to the why of the affair. What conditions existed in our marriage that allowed the actions that started the process that led to the affair. Not how that the OM proposed, etc. but why that she allowed her boundaries to be expanded so far and failed to protect me so much that we allowed an OM to meet her needs (not the sexual needs but admiration, etc.) that ultimately led up the the act being performed. Further once we identified those issues, how given her moralistic attitude did she allow that to continue once she was not impaired.

3) Redefining our relationship to include reasonable boundaries designed to protect each other and our marriage. Is flirting harmless...obviously everyone has a different opinion as shown on this forum. But flirting is an advanced communication method that "requests" the flirtee to respond with meeting an emotional need...probably one of admiration. If we flirt, and the person we flirt does not respond, what is the purpose. If we flirt and the person responds with an acknowledgement that they think we are attractive, funny, whatever...aren't we really just using flirting to get the admiration that we need as an emotional need. If so, why are we willing to allow someone other than our spouse to fulfill that need?

The marriage that I have today hardly resembles the marriage that I had at any time prior to the A or to D-day. But it is a real marriage with true intimacy and zero secrets. It is also a marriage that places a high value on what each of us can do to PROTECT the other person in the marriage. We have new boundaries. We have those not because either of us thinks that we will have an affair, but because we love our spouse and are willing to give up things that are unimportant or less important to either of us in order to PROTECT the other spouse. As an example, my wife loves to dance, I don't. Prior to D-day when we were out or even when she was out at a business function or whatever, she would dance with other partners. But when I got the details that I needed to start to process not only the whys of the affair but the hows, I find out that the first non-plutonic touch between the two happened on a dance floor. Well in an effort to protect me in the future, we have a simple boundary. No dancing with others unless I am present or I agree that it is allright and they are with a group of others whom I know. It is not that dancing is inherently evil, just like your social drinking or your flirting may not be inherently evil...but it provides the opportunity for bad things to happen and so out of respect for our spouse, we choose not to do them.

Good luck in your recovery. I hope that you choose to try and recover your marriage. If not, I pray that you will be blessed with at least a personal recovery and will do things in your next relationship to ensure that those boundaries are not crossed, not ever again. Mr. Vash, you have already had two marriages affected by the cancer of adultery....there has to be a way to ensure that you never have to endure this again...period (at least an alternative to monkdom and eternal celebacy).

But to start the process, you must get to the whys. The alcohol was just one more thing that once your guard came down allowed you to focus on your actions without guilt, it was not the reason why the affair occurred. Mortarman's analogy with the trepassing was maybe the best I have ever seen. The why is what causes one person to decide to climb the fence in order to even get on the interstate access road to begin with.

NT

One other comment. My FWW danced with others many times when she did not wind up sleeping with them. She also drank many times without having a ONS. But in one instance, she drank and danced and wound up in bed with another person who was not me.

Rules of logic would prove that neither dancing or drinking was the "why" of the affair. Getting to the why is much deeper than that and unfortunately will be much more painful than being able to brush these incidences off as purely a mistake that happened impulsively while under the influence.

By the way. I am a social drinker that although I don't drink that often, on certain occassions (football tailgate parties) I start early, drink often and stop late. I may or may not know if I am too drunk to find the nearest bathroom and whether that bathroom is the guys or girls...but I have yet to walk out into the busy street or proposition another person who is not my wife. On the contrary, when I drink, I make sure that I don't start too close to the street or another mans wife because I know my judgement is impaired from drinking.

NT