Lousygolfer,

I am not trying to deflect the blame or the post. I only brought up my H friendship to show the difference between our flirting styles.

I have and do take full responsibility for my A. I have a lot of work to do still. I also did say that I didn't want to address this issue anymore. It's not the cause of the A. My flirting and my friendship was.

I as well am not an easy person to get along with. My H has very strong opions on everything. As well as I do. One of the things we had a hard time with in the begining of our relationship was I felt like he was always trying to get me to change my way of thinking and vise-versa. Which was not the case. It took a few years for us to realize that we wanted the samethings and beleived in the samethings just got there in different ways.

So what I'm trying to say is if I have burried any part of myself I'm not aware of it. Thank you for your post.
Jess

Vash and his girl - here is a thread called 15 steps of unfaithfulness. Have a look and consider which step you are up to Vash.

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/sho...mp;Main=2868483

So, Mrs. Vash...what's the list of ENs? For you and Mr. Vash. List them out here and then we can discuss them.

And it sounds as if the need for Admiration is high on your list. Nothing wrong with that. But let's see what you come up with so we can narrow this thing down.

Get your husband to do the questionaires also so we can get a good idea where you guys are at.

Just to clarify, are you asking me if I am cheating now???

I am really getting tired of being insulted while trying to heal and move on. If you are trying to imply that I am, please keep your self as well as your opinions out of any thread of mine!

Vash

Vash:

Relax. Things are tough for you right now. Some folks on this site like to point out the flaws in thinking (I can!) that both BS and WS have.

As I stated earlier, you have a good friend who happens to be a woman. It's platonic, I can leave it at that. Some members of this forum will never have a member of the opposite sex as a good friend. That is thier choice.

I noticed that you are posting on other threads, welcome to the group. Your voice deserves to be heard. Your WW wants to make amends and she is here looking for help. Many BS never have that opportunity to have a WS who is engaged and actively searching for help.

This thread has taken many turns. Some of the threads on this site last for years. Usually it is because the original poster asks something that appeals to many and the thread survives. Sometimes, such as in HEARTSORES STORY, it's just great theatre and he comes back and spills it out on the stage and everyone wants to help, and he doesn't mind an occasional negative post.

This thread starts with "I AM AN ADULTRESS" Your wife used it as a confessional and exposed her A to all members of the group. After some negative comments about drinking and some other issues, it became quite combative. However, I could see changes in MrsVashs posts as she realized how the actions that she had taken created an enviroment for an A to occur. She realized these things from the posts of many people here. If she keeps exploring her thoughts and feelings here, there are a number of ways that you can end up with a strong and affair proof M.

So my last post pointed out the you were "difficult to get along with" and Mrs Vash says that she is as well. So we have a new place for this thread to go. Why are the two of you so difficult to get along with? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Thanks for your words LG. I just don't want this again to focus on something that I feel is not even remotley an issue. I know that some people will see that as a form of denial, and that maybe I don't know its a problem, but I would like toassure those people that I am activly involved in self evaluation on a daily basis. I have been to counceling and am going again.

Its funny, becasue I think I am hard to get along with, and Jess thinks she is. The funny thing is, that I don't really think she is all that hard to get along with. I can see where some people may have a hard time, but I think thats becasue she has a quirky sence of humor and is a very moralistic person (go figure huh). The important thing, is that she is not difficult for me to get along with... 2 days ago after reading my post about how I thought I was hard to get along with, she told me that I was one of the easiest people shes ever met to get along with.... That just made me laugh... and then I was a little sad.

I realized that the 2 people staring at each other at that moment, were not strangers at all. In fact we each know each other inside and out. That is one of the heaviest hits against my self confidence... it feels like I cheated on myself. This woman was more than my wife, lover, or best friend... she was literaly the Yang to my Ying... my other half.

I will probably start a new thread for myself soon. I just wanted to reiterate that appreciation I have for some of you... Jessica is on the path... and though I am pretty sure I know what the issue is, I would like her to figure it out and admit it to her self... In my opinion that is one of the biggest tools she lack that I'd like her to gain... self evaluation.

Thanks again all,
Vash

Welcome Mr and Mrs Vash.

So right now it sounds like the two of you are planning to attempt recovery.

I do think it's a good idea that you both have your own threads and perhaps one where you post mutually.

It is often the case that when a husband and wife post on the same thread it becomes a dizzying he said she said in which everyone gets lost in tangents and details and sadly the purpose and goals get lost as well.

To Vash...

As you might have suspected by now...there are many areas of life that have previously been unquestioned that may need to be examined and measured against a new standard.

For many people...certainly myself...prior to my H having an affair active protection of my marriage was far from the top of my priority list...it was simply a given that we would both be faithfull and everything would be fine.

As it happens we assumed to much and allowed several vulnerable points to exist unchallenged.

Retrospectively I can this this very clearly but only because I have had time to process, examine, argue, re-examine, and investigate over a period of years.

For example...the issue of flirting.

Well...it depends on how you define it doesn't it?

Are you communicating playfullness..romance...sex?

Any of those fit the definition and while two of them fit the bill for "affair breeding ground" one does not.

Similarly having "close friends" of the opposite sex...while it is not an imperative that this friend be an active threat to your marriage...it is certainly and undeniably a vulnerable area. No one here knows what boundaries you have in place as an individual..but we have interacted with literally hundreds if not thousands of hurting people...sometimes the betrayer..sometimes the betrayed...as a result of a series of events that include this common ingredient.

As you become more familiar with the material and Dr Harleys research in these areas and have the ability to make a judgement based on your acceptance or rejection of his experience and conclusions these hot button issues will likely seem less like a personal attack.

Posting to others and reading their stories will also help to give you an idea of what people mean when they are referring to common elements, familiar scrips, etc.

You will hear the same patterns over and over ad nauseum until you will find yourself able to play connect the dots and suspect an affair when one hasn't been admitted.

It truly is a shocker that there could be so many commonalities.

To Mrs Vash...

What puts you in the minority is that you came willingly, to find answers, and make changes, with remorse and humility while taking personal responsibility.

Well done, you are in good company.

Vash:

THen stay here on this forum.

As silly as it sounds, I thought I had a great realtionship with my BS as well. She was Ying to my Yang. And hey, we had issues, but everyone does, and we are M and they will work out. Well no one ever taught me how to work it out. And then one day the OW showed up at work. And the rest is now bad history.

Afterwards, using the info from this site, our Ying/Yangs got into the conversations that really revealed how unhappy we were in our R. What I had done, and what she had done. Why the M had problems and what we could do to fix it.

As great as the M was pre-A at times, it pales to the M that we have now.

LG,

I just wrote the longest post of my MB career and some how lost it. Which I guess is okay. I think I may have been doing a little bit of "poor me" in it. I don't want to do that.

So here it goes. I am hard to get along with for 5 reasons that stand out and one that I just realized.

1. I am judgemental. I have very high moral and standards for myself. I sometimes hold others up to my standards. It causes problems. I have to be reminded that not everyone is me.

2. I am very controling. I didn't want to beleive that for years. My definiton of controling has nothin gto do with what it actully is. I learned that from Dr.Phil. Much to Mr. Vashes dismay. He had been telling me I was controling for years.

3. I have never been good at keeping my mouth shut. I need to think before I speak. I call it honesty some call it rude.

4. Nothing is ever good enough. I have to be reassured a 100 times if food taste okay. If I look okay. If I'm doing it right. It drives Mr. Vash nuts.

5. I am mothering. I want to fix everyone. I feel the need to make things better for everyone and ignore myself. Then I get upset because they don't handle themselves the way I would which goes back to number 1.

6. The one I just figured out is have a strong desire for admiration. Which is so evident in my list. I never would have said that about myself but it's true. Go figure.

So that is why I am hard to get along with. It seems though that to know me is to love me. I could never figure out why people liked me. I am serious. But they do. Even after Mr. Vash exposed me to all of our friends and has family.(I told mine) they still like me. I find that so hard to swallow. I do not feel worthy of anyones friendship.

That is why I seek my answers on here. You can't see me. You all don't feel sorry for me. You all don't sugar coat things for me. I love it. Real answers and real people. Not a bunch of people who want me to smile and feel better. You are all people who want me to be better. For that I thank you all.

Jesica

Vash - I am not in anyway suggesting anything at all. I have looked at my posts to you in this thread and for the life of me I cannot see how what I have said could have upset you (although clearly this is what has happened). I presume at this point, for whatever reason you just don't like me which is fine. I suspect however that I have hit a nerve which causes your totally out or proportion reactions.

If you don't want to hear from me that is fine. Click on my username and then find the "ignore this poster" button and click on it. Too easy.

I hope you and Mrs Vash sort this out. I only wish both of you the best.

Mort,

Okay I need to redo the EN quiz. I think I have misjudged myself. I took it with not wanting to hurt my H anymore than I already have.

The order I picked is this.
1. Honesty and Openness
2.Family commitment
3.Affection
4.Domestic support
5.Admiration
Now as I look at them I know it's wrong.
6.Finacial support
7Sexual fulfillment
8. Conversation
9. Recreational companionship
10. attractive spouse.


10 is easy I have an attractive spouse. I find him more attractive with every passing year.
9. i am so not into recreational anything. So what lttile we do is perfect.
8. Conversation we have always made time for each other to talk. Weather it be everyday or once a week.
7Someone once said if you have a partner who you are content with it isn't highon your prority list. This is how I feel. We are very compatible in our sex life so it isn't an issue.
6.Now here comes one that I should have put much higher. I feel like I am the one that the money issues come down on. I am a bartender/waitress so if we need more money I ca nwork extra. If we get into big trouble I cn call my family. Vash doesn't like to think about it. I try not to worry. He gets reibursted by his company for the internet. He hasn't feeled out the paperwork in months. We could use that money. There is just always a reason why he hasn't done it. It kills me. I feel like he blames me for the money problems.
5.Admiration now we all know that it should be way up there.
4.Domestic support. I do everthing. If your thinking it I do it. I have trained him this way. Now I need help. I know it's not right for me to complain about it if that's how it has always been. He isn't a mind reader. He does help if i ask. I justr don't want to have to ask.
3. Affection is something that we have worked on together. I like to be shown in special ways. Notes,cards actions.. He is a very touchy feely kind of guy. We have both copromised in this area.
2. Family commitment. I need to know that htis is where I belong. When things get tough Vash has a habbit of saying he wants a divorce. I reel from those fights for weeks. He doesn't mean it. But words hurt.
1 Honesty and openness. I think everyone wants that.
So I guess I would just reajust my needs.
1.Admiration
2. Financial Support
3.Domestic support
4. Honesty and openness
5. Family commitment
6. affection
7. conversation
8.recreation companionship
9. sexual fulfillment
10. attractive spose.

I have to run the kids need something. Tell me what you think.
Jess

Okay. Very good. Remember, this list is to be done in the following way...

Take the 10 ENs. Find the one in there that if you had to get rid of nine, and only have one met by Jason, which one would that be? Once you have that one, then you do the same thign again with the rest of the list (which on out of the nine left would you have to have met). You do this until you have ordered all of them.

Jsut because you are content in the SF area right now...as you say...doesnt mean it is low on the list. It may be high on the list...but you are content with the way your husband meets that need.

So, re-check the list based on the criteria I jsut laid out. Then let me know what you find.

But for now...I am pretty sure I am right about what I said last week. That admiration is VERY high on your list. And it is very likely that this is where the OM was meeting needs. You would help him, do things for him...and he would appreciate all that you were doing for him. So, you felt good and would want to do more. I suspect that you may not have really wanted sex with him...but that your need for admiration led you to want to please him...and he wanted to have sex with you. Let me know how close I am.

This happens with a lot of women that have had affairs. It usually isnt the sex for the woman. She gives sex because she is gettign something else.

Anyway, recheck your needs list to make sure you have done it by this criteria. Then post the list again. Once we figure it all out, then we can see what boundaries you need to put up...and also how your husband might better meet those particular needs.

By the way, he is going to need to post his ENs on his thread also. And once we go thru that...then you will have to learn to better fulfill his (we can always improve, right?).

As I said, this stuff is all so simple. Your fall was very simple. It wasnt complicated at all. No real hidden meanings or agendas. But the fog of the addiction caused you to miss all of the warning signs.

What we need to do now is set up great walls, bigger signs...and help you make sure you understand that you should always heed those warning signs...before you get to the cliff.

Mortarman,

I did do it wrong. Last night I read "His needs,Her Needs". I messed it all up.

I picked things to go on top that where making me angry or upset. Not that I couldn't live without.

I should have read the book before I tried to answer the questions. I hurt Jason without even meaning to with my answers. What a fool I am.

Okay. So give me a day or two to get the book finished and then I'll repost my top ten EN.

Thank you so much.
Jessica

Here are a couple of interesting things regarding “emotional needs”.

First, often times spouse’s most important needs are the same ones that are being met the least. This means that emotional needs change with the landscape. The reality is that they all have importance but perhaps at different times they will rise or fall in your list. For instance, you list sexual fulfillment far down on your list, but go without it for a month or so and it might climb to the top.

Second, don’t be surprised if his list is almost the inverse of yours; Men are from Mars, women are from Venus.

He most likely tells you he wants a divorce because he is testing your level of commitment to “stay the course” in the marriage. Perhaps he is unsure that you really want to recover, as he does not know what you are thinking or if he can measure up to the other man. He may feel that it is grossly unfair to not only be betrayed by the one he loves but then to have work at recovering from something he did not cause. He doesn’t’ want to be second choice or even first choice; the fact that he is a choice at all is depressing in of itself. Anger, resentment and bitterness will all surface as he processes what has happened. He most certainly wants to know that you are committed to recover before he makes such a commitment in order avoid further insult and disappointment. Your words are not enough and your actions take time to prove themselves out, so he tests your commitment by offering you a “way out”. He may “cut his nose to spite his face” and you may do your relationship a service if remain guarded to watch and not permit him to take this way out. It is easy to feel defeated but I urge you to fight against it.

I told my wife on many occasions to “pack your bags and leave me to my pain”. It was her insistence to flatly state, “I’m not going anywhere and neither are you”, that won me over. She made that her mantra and after some time I learned that she really meant it. Then I let go of the lingering resentment and I really began to feel better. Two years latter it still pops up from time to time but it is manageable and continues to improve.

I hope this helps you,

Mr. G

Thank you Mr.G,

I think I didn't make myself clear. I do that a lot when typing. I get to far ahead of my thought process and leave things out.

Vash has been very careful not to say anything about divorce during this stage of my A. He would say that to me way before the A when we fought. He has been very good to me during this whole ordeal.

I do need to redo my EN. I didn't do it properly.
Thank you for your time. It is sucha great help.
Jessica

Okay Jessica...please do that.

And remember...you didnt hurt Jason with your answers. The truth right now is the best thing for Jason. He lives in a world where he doesnt know what is true, what is right. He looks around every corner, under every table...wondering what will hit him next. He is hyper-sensitive. He has been hurt badly and is in protection mode. Paranoia reigns supreme.

You cannot make it go away any faster than it will. But you can make it last longer. How? well, honesty is what he needs. Radical honesty. You must be completely transparent.

Mr. G said something that was very good. His wife's comment that "I am not going anywhere, and neither are you" over and over again...backed up by visible examples of that commitment...is exactly what every BS wants and needs!

His pain is his pain. He is the one that will find his way through it. All you can do is "do no harm." And be there like a rock, steadfastly committed to him, your family and your marriage.

Mr. G talked about him sabotaging things. This is classic BS stuff. Sometimes, the pain is so bad, that we want the WS to "do us a favor" and just leave. So, we get mean and spiteful.

Here is an example.

One day, he might be feeling this way. You walk in and say:

Mrs. V: "What's up, hun."
Mr. V: "Dont call me hun."
Mrs. V: "What's the matter?"
Mr. V: "I dont know why I continue to try. It is hopeless. I just cannot get over what you did."

Now, here is where you can make a huge mistake. You could draw him into a conversation, talking about the reasons why, and how you have worked hard to get past it, etc. And guess what? You will be met with ANGER!

Instead, your response goes something like this:

Mrs. V: "I am sorry."
Mr. V: "Sure you are (sarcastic). If I had not of caught you, you would still be at it. You dont love me."

Mrs. Vash...this is standard BS speak. He doesnt want jsutifications. He wants you to hear his pain...and not run. Your response?

Mrs. V: "Jason, I am so sorry for the pain I caused you."
Mr. V: "But what if I cant get past this Jess? What if there is no way for me to get over what you have done?"
Mrs. V: "Jason, I love you. I am sorry. I am here. I am not leaving. I will understand no matter which way you go. But I have made my decision...and I will be here."

Do you see? He needs you to hear his pain, and not justify things. Not make excuses. even if true, they always sound so hollow to a BS. Instead, he needs to just hear sorrow and commitment. And love.

Understand?

The sounds good. Thank you.

Just a few words regarding my H thread. I was told by him that I could read it. So I did. I was told by others not to post on it. So I wont. I have been told not to read it further by you all. I think I underdstand why now.

I do want to answer some of the questions raised on his thread about me.

Brynap,
This is the definition of BPD
A person with a borderline personality disorder often experiences a repetitive pattern of disorganization and instability in self-image, mood, behavior and close personal relationships. This can cause significant distress or impairment in friendships and work. A person with this disorder can often be bright and intelligent, and appear warm, friendly and competent. They sometimes can maintain this appearance for a number of years until their defense structure crumbles, usually around a stressful situation like the breakup of a romantic relationship or the death of a parent.
Thanks for the heads up. It does not apply to me.

I'm sorry I for got the peoples names who questioned about CSA. I have always thought that something happened to me as a child. I am not sure what. I blamed my father for years. My parents where seperated when I was 10 months old. I started masterbating at the age of 3. I remember getting in trouble for it.

Like I said I am not sure if anything ever happened to me but there has always been that feeling for me.

I do not feel like I have any disorders other than the one I have been diagnoised with. I could be wrong. I will go to my GP and ask him to recommend someone for me to speak to.


I have been on Prozac for a little over a year now. I do have PMDD. That is Pre-menstrual Disforic Disorder. I have never felt so "normal" in my whole life.

I didn't recognize I had a strong need for admiration until just a few days ago. It is now something I can work on. I see it. I don't need other men to feel that need. I was una ware of the threat to myself and my marriage. Hind sight is 20/20.

Thank you again,
Jess

Okay now stop reading his thread. I serves you no purpose and will hurt your M rather than help it. Neither one of you knows the truth. You each have your perception of it but the truth is somewhere beyond either of you. You have no need to defend yourself. Reading his thread is a useless distraction from the real help you need and available to you here.

Do a little experiment. Stop reading his thread for 7 days. Then start reading his thread for 7 days. Then, after 14 days, evaluate it and see which one worked better for you. I think you will be very surprised. Don't worry about what he says about you or accuses you of on his thread. We all know it is his opinion and perception. But he needs to be able to fully explore that and understand it without you shutting it down.

A few months ago, I was convinced that my WW was Satan incarnate. I no longer have that opinion but I needed to explore that entire line of thinking and get help from people here to allow me to have those thoughts and work through them.

Last night my DD2 couldn't go to sleep because she was convinced there was a witch in her closet. She was in tears. I could have simply told her there was no witch in her closet (there wasn't BTW) and told her to go to sleep but I knew she had to explore it and understand it. So we got up and went and checked the closet. We discussed whether she wanted the door left open or closed. Then we talked about witches and how they were only make believe. Then she got in bed and was asleep in less than a minute. She worked through it - but she had to do it in her own way and in her own time.

Hello again,

I am glad that you do not have BPD. Vash has made comments that he was cheated on by his previous wife and that you worked very hard to get him over it and become trusting and moving on with his life with you. I think you are really going to need to address the question that if you new what he went through previously and worked with him to overcome it then how could you have allowed yourself to do this to him again knowing the effect it would surely have on him? Was it down deep you saw this as an exit affair? I guess I just don't get it. You worked with him to overcome his fear of it previously and then you did the one thing you absolutely knew that would severely wound him. I really think you have to address this issue with him. It is absolutely critical.