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Hello All,

A lot of you here may not know my whole story as I have been a long time poster on the emotional needs board. I have posted there for over two years. I tried to post in this section a couple of months ago and did not get it really going. I have decided to move to this board as I have seen many more posters in a similar situation to myself post here with advice from people who have actually managed to have MB work for them. I pray some of you good people are still around and willing to take on one more person.

I won't bore you with all my long posts from the EN board and will try to offer the links if asked. In summary, my M has been in trouble for quite a while. Our intimacy was my first sign. It had been dwindling for years and finally it has been almost 2.5 years since the last intimate moment.

I have been speaking with Steve Harley once a week starting this last May and he offers me good advice. However, as I take this next step, I am going to need advice more than once a week. I also feel getting other's opinions (especially those who have been through what I am about to embark on).

I give a short summary. This past April, my W went away on a trip to Phoenix by herself to meet up with family (including her dad and step mom) for a family wedding. I stayed home with our 6 year old S. When W got back from this trip, she told me out of the blue that she needed time to think about our M and that she was not in love with me. She actually said the common phrase, "I love you, but I am not in love with you." Now, I asked at the time if there was anyone else. She became irrate with me for asking.

After a month of pins and needles, I end up near her cell phone by myself and it rings. I went to grab it to bring it to her because I knew she was awaiting a phone call from her sister. Turns out it was a text message from some guy in Phoenix which said, "In your eyes by Peter Gabriel was playing in my patrol car. Who do you think I am thinking of right now? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />" That night I confronted my W and she told me it was "Shawn." Shawn is a guy my W had dated for 7 years starting from when she was a junior in high school. They broke up and she dated on and off for 6 years with Shawn chasing her once in a while the whole time. Then I met my W 6 years after they had officially gone out. In fact, the first weekend W and I began talking, this Shawn had appeared at her apartment to "try again." W had told him that she had met someone else and that it was too late. Then for 7 years we had been together. Finally, this Shawn enters the picture again this past April.

As I dug, I found that W and Shawn had been on the phone 3-4 times a day and hours during the night. W started doing very suspicious things like planning trips to girlfriends and ending up staying in a hotel room near where Shawn's family lives. She lied and hid these hotel charges as best she could, but I found out. She even came home with a love note on hotel stationery which said, "I (picture of a heart) U lots, lots, lots." When I found this she told me it was a joke her sister had done because her and her sister were talking about how I was such a jealous person and would probably go through her stuff so they planted it. I did not find this funny.

W could not even say, "Happy Fathers Day" to me let alone give me a card. I went out for lunch with my S on my own. For my B-day, she could not get me a card either. She got me a card from S and socks and underwear. However, I find a love card from the heart with pre-written words in it that describes "how we are miles apart right now...... know one can see through my mask of smiles.......you are in my every though..... I can't wait until we are together again and feel your loving arms around me." I also found that my W had the movie the "Notebook." My W has not really been interested in romantic movies our whole relationship. She has kept this movie put away upstairs in her office. This movie parallels her and Shawn and I believe helps her to build up her fantasy world.

After our anniversary on July 27, there was a family wedding on my W's side and she had lead me to believe that we both may go to it. By May I had been dropped off all the invite lists from her family, B-day parties, weddings etc... This wedding was a few days after our anniversary. We had a really great anniversary and it was like our first date. I even prepared a hot bath with music, candles, rose petals, champagne and a card. This shocked her and she appreciated it. Then she did not want me to go to the wedding a few days later. Turns out, she had planned to go down to Shawn's family's house and stay the night. Shawn was not there and he lives in Phoenix. Apparently, W used to live in this house for a couple of years and was the daughter Shawn's mom never had. W successfully integrated herself into this family and was talking with Shawn's brother and mother on a regular basis. This continues and kills me. W does not understand what is wrong with me because she is just taliking to close and dear friends of hers. She feels I am being controling and something is wrong with me because of my being irritated with all of this.

Last Thursday, my W actually participated in a phone call with Steve and I. This took 4 months to get her to do this. While on the call she admitted that there was nothing I could do right. She said that if I did something good she felt I was trying to kiss [censored]. If I did something wrong then I showed her I have not changed at all. She also said that our M was over and Harley told her it was over when we are divorced. Harley pushed for us to go to the MB weekend, but W flat out refused. W said that she does not trust me and that she had let me close to her before and I had hurt her through being controlling, jealous and mistrusting. All this was a day before W was taking off to leave the state to go and see a girlfriend and go to concerts. She was leaving Friday morning and coming home Monday afternoon. She had planned all of this without caring about my work schedule or anything.

My summary with Harley following my W's participation was that W is incredibly controlling right now. She is totally into whatever she wants to do without care for anyone else who gets in her way. In Harley's words, she is distracted and not getting it. He said this is either from an affair or true stubborness. Either way, Harley says my path is the same. He told me to take my S away for the weekend and collect my thoughts. We discussed my talking to W on Monday when she gets home and that I ask her to leave. I still very much love my W and want our M to work. Harley asked me what I wanted to do and I said, "Whatever I can to put our M in the best position to succeed." Harley realizes I am now running out of energy at great lengths and have done a plan A for a while. He has told me that I have made great changes in myself both mentally and physically. I have taken all the negative energy over the past 6 months and turned it into training for triathlons. I have lost 40 lbs and am now training for a half iron man next year (talk about a lot of negative energy).

Anyway, I am very nervous about tomorrow and am having the common thoughts: What if I am wrong and my telling W to leave will be the end to our M. The only things that keep me going are: 1) I have been sleeping downstairs on our couch since January 1; 2) We have not been intimate in over 2 years; 3) W continues to act suspicious and treat me very coldly, even saying last week, "Being around you makes me sick to my stomach; talking about working on our M makes me sick to my stomach; thinking about being intimate with you makes me sick to my stomach." 4) For the last 6 months, Harley has been working with me a lot and I have made massive improvements in myself. The whole time, all I have asked of W was to look into a plan that is available to us to make our M great and allow us to fall back in love and be happy. She has adamantly refused to even consider investigating this plan. The only reason she spoke with Harley was to "get you off my back so I could go to my girlfriends this weekend."

When I left our house early afternoon after our Harley phone call I said to W, "I love you and I want our M to be great." Then I walked out. When I got home she acted as though nothing had happened and she even went to the store and picked up orange juice for me because she saw we were out and she knew I love orange juice. She pointed this out. Thursday night, Harley told me to go dark, very dark. I did and did not interact with W at all. In fact, I was not around her while she packed. I did not say good-bye to her for her trip. I felt really bad for not even saying "be safe." I did and said nothing.

Friday afternoon she texts me, "Made it up here ok.I'll call S for bed.Hope your eyes are better." I had an eye becom infected this past wednesday due to a contact. I did not respond. Friday evening I went and took money out of the bank (she has had control of our banking accounts for years). I texted her, "$500 out of checking. Taking S to festival for weekend." She texted back, "OK, Where?" I wrote, "Laffayette." She wrote, "OK, Have fun." I did not respond.

S and I get to our hotel around 6:00 PM. We check in and go to dinner. Then we do minature golf and go back to the hotel. We decide to go swimming and then into the hot tub. While we are in the hot tub, W called. I put S on first. I was not interested in talking to her. S talks for a very short time because he wants to get back into the hot tub. He acted as though W was no longer on the phone. When I got the phone back I said, "Hello?" W was still there. She said, "Did you get my text earlier today? The one about my asking if your eyes were better." I said, "Yes, that was nice to ask that." Then she said she was at dinner at Applebees and was outside because she could not hear inside. I asked who was there. She told me just her one girlfriend and that they were waiting on another girlfriend. Then they were going to hear this one band. She told me to have a good time. I told her to have a good time too. She said she would call tomorrow to say good night to S.

S and I went to a festival and had a great time. Then we went back to the hotel and read one of his library books. He is in first grade and needs to read a certain amount each week. Then we went swimming and hot tubing and then to Chuckee Cheese for dinner. We just got back to our room when W called. She was late calling and I was glad she atleast called to say good night to S since she told him she would. She ended up on the phone with me and said that she just lounged around all day. She was at a concert and could barely hear us. She said she would call tomorrow night again to say good night to S.

I have put my thoughts down on paper to read to W tomorrow night. It is not a plan "B" letter as I will write and give one to her when she walks out. However, I could use some thoughts on what I am considering saying to her tomorrow. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

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Dearest W,

In Sheboygan on the Polka stage when we shared our first kiss, I got an overwhelming feeling that we would spend the rest of our lives together. That feeling has never changed for me since. I am in love with you in every way a person can be.

We faced some of the most difficult life challenges two people could face and found that together we can make it through anything.

Some how over the years we slowly grew apart. We both feel the other was not hearing our cries and would continue to hurt us. I now know that each of us was doing the best that we could with the relationship tools we had inside us at the time. We began to feel controlled and less loved by the other. We were not able to realize that our partner loved and cared for us deeply because of our feeling that we for some reason, needed to protect ourselves.

Throughout all of this, we have the most precious son whom we both put on a pedestal ahead of maintaining and growing our own relationship. In the end, we actually did S a disservice by letting our relationship lag behind him everytime.

Now we are at a point where we both cannot see eachother as we really are. We are unable to see the love, care and humanity that still resides in our hearts. Worse, at times we are actively blocking our natural feelings for each other and somehow have managed at times to even convince ourselves that we should nat have these feelings for each other. I realize now, this is crazy and will not suppress my feelings any longer, for they are how I feel.

I hear what you have been telling me since May, "I don't love you. I don't think I can get this feeling back. I don't trust you." I also understand why you feel how you do. However, this is not what we should accept. Our very first discussion, over looking Lake Michigan, we both agreed we never would get divorced once we got married to whomever. One for us because we both came from divorced parents, but two for any children because we both knew first hand the deep, life altering pain this causes a child.

W, I have hurt you greatly and never actually intended to hurt you. You have hurt me greatly, and I know in my heart you would not actually intend to hurt me.

Forgiveness is knowing the other person did not mean to hurt you and giving them another chance because you love each other.

Right now I still have enough love for you in my heart that I know, through working together, I could forgive you and we could recover our marriage and family. I believe and hope that there is still enough love somewhere deep in your heart for the same. I also know that a recovery of our marriage can only happen with us agreeing to something that protects each other, allows us to feel emotionally safe and helps us see the definable progress we would make. The most important thing for me is rebuilding our emotional connection.

Although right now I know I still have enough love for you in my heart, I also realize that on our current path: my sleeping on the couch; independent life styles; the blocking of an emotional connection to grow; no affection or intimacy; lies and deceptions; very hurtful words and no willingness to even investigate how to make our marriage great brings me to one of the saddest moments in my life.

With the understanding that there is an opportunity put in front of us that could make our marriage great and that at this moment I am still willing to investigate this with you, I am left with no choice but to agree that it is time for you to find your own place to live. This is something I have never wanted nor can I actually believe I am saying these words to you.

I have reached this point in hopes to still save our marriage. This does not come from anger or mallice. It comes from the purest and deepest love I could ever have for another human beign.

I love you W, I truely do.

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Any comments or opinions would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks so much in advance for ANY help you nice people are willing to provide.

I just can't help or get over the feeling that I am doing the wrong thing by asking her to leave. To me it seems so counter intuitive that I must tell my W to leave in order to save our M........

Best Wishes,

EL

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Extremely,

Either your story is highly inaccurate or you have been talking to another Steve Harley! You have been going through TWO years of this cr*p and you are still lucid???? According to the VERY loose guidlines subscribed to in this forum a maximum 3 months Plan A is recomended for WW's( and I personally think that is 2 months too long).

First, wipe her footprints off your back and then read the following Hope for Couples in Crisis Next is to NEVER, NEVER accept the kind of disrespect that you have been willing to expect from not only your WW but also her family. Now my Plan C(ymanca)is to get yourself BACK in your bedroom and ship her lying behind downstairs on the couch(although she truly belongs outside of your marital home). Get everything in writing concerning her abandonment of your child. Contact a lawyer immediately for advice on how to legally protect you and your son. Separate your finances as much as you legally can and ABSOLUTELY refuse to pay for her sexual romps. You are not her daddy nor are you her banker.

And lastly regarding your letter, throw it in the trash. If two years of Plan A won't convince her, I GUARANTEE your letter will only serve as a knee slapping entertainment for your WW and officer Shawn.

Best of luck. I feel you have been very poorly served if your account is accurate.


Divorced:
"Never shelter anyone from the realities of their decisions": Noodle

You believe easily what you hope for ernestly

Infidelity does not kill marriages, the lying does
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Hello Cymanca,

My account is not inaccurate. I did not spend 10,000 paragraphs on all the horrid details, although it is pretty well accounted for in the EN section where I have some massive posts. I joined MB approximately 2.5 years ago. I spent the first 2 years learning about MB and trying to do the things for plan A. Then my world seemed to fall further apart and I ended up speaking with Steve for the first time in May.

I have went through what I have went through and trust Steve and MB as it is really the only thing I have to help me at the moment. I do feel as though I have been used by my W. When I mentioned this to Steve, he told me that this is how I would feel if I am doing plan A correctly. He helped me out and due to special circumstances held me back from a plan B because he did not want me to give my W a "cause" since she now had such a strong support group (her family, Shawn's family, her girlfriends etc..) All of this support structure has been setup with her fantasy thinking and I have been left with no way to counter any of it.

I truely feel that my W right now is someone I never knew before and never thought she could do or be what she is right now. I do hold out hope that reality can once again become her norm and we may find ourselves rebuilding what actually was a very promising life. I love her. She is the mother of my child. I wish to grow old with her.

As I have run out of steam now, Steve has agreed that I need to plan B for me more than anything else.

Best Wishes,

EL

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Cymanca,

Thank you so much for the link for "couples in crisis." It really gave me some hope and inspiration in my hour of need. What I have gotten from this brief article, I know I will hold in my thoughts when I am asking my beloved to leave tomorrow night.

Thank you kind and caring sir!

EL

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Cymanca after talking to Steve several times I believe his approach is to continue Plan A as long as the BS has enough energy left that they don't LB and begin to loose all the love for their WS.

EL, that is a very nice letter you wrote to your WW, however it will have absolutely NO effect on her so put it away in a safe place and maybe you can give it to her if she ever returns from the mothership.

I have tried those letter to and they seem to push the WS farther away. Don't give it to her...the only letter you should give her is a short Plan B letter and then go very dark. Plan B will help you rebuild your self esteem and self respect as long as you stay dark and committ to what you wrote. Maybe then your WW will begin to regain some respect for you when she sees that you stand by what you say. I speak from experience since my WW lost her respect for me and now I'm in a dark Plan B. She is slowly showing signs of her old self as she doesn't seem to like me being dark.

If this has been going on this long, I don't expect it to get better soon and that means Plan B may be your best option. However, before you go into Plan B you need to take care of all the details to minimize breaking it.

Will she leave when you ask her to? What if she says no?

HTW


Married 10 years, Legally Seperated Aug 2,2006
1 year of Plan A followed by 1 year of Plan B...
...now stepping towards recovery?????
BH 37(me), WW 35, DB 7 & DD 5
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Hello HopeThisWorks,

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Cymanca after talking to Steve several times I believe his approach is to continue Plan A as long as the BS has enough energy left that they don't LB and begin to loose all the love for their WS.


HTW, you are totally correct. This is definitely Steve's approach. I had said to him that I was concerned if I had done a good enough plan A to go to plan B and he told me that it is not about doing a good enough plan A to go to plan B. It is about plan Aing as long as you have the energy. He encouraged me to work on energy conservation over the last 6 months because, "If you run out of energy, we are done here." This is why I ended up going the excersize route and participating in triathlons. If you knew me from before, you would understand that my getting into triathlons is quite a testimony to the amount of negative energy one can accumulate going through what we are going through.

I would have replied earlier but my lap top ran out of juice and I am now on my W's computer as she comes home tomorrow. I also had to read with S until she called to say good night to him. She called 30 minutes past his bed time and claimed she was sorry, but wanted to call him when she got home to her girlfriend's house. They were out gambling at a Potowatomi place. I guess she never considered that she could have called anytime with her cell phone..... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" /> Oh, the WW, what a looser!!!!!

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EL, that is a very nice letter you wrote to your WW, however it will have absolutely NO effect on her so put it away in a safe place and maybe you can give it to her if she ever returns from the mothership.


HTW, this is not a letter, or atleast it was not intended as such when I wrote it. It is more of a guidline for the talk I am planning on having with her tomorrow night when she gets back. You see, I am doing this in such a way that it is for me. It is right for me. I could give it to her afterwards and have thought about it as a possibility. I still may. However, the end result is still the same. If you are not going to shape up and work on our M, then get the ****** out!

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I have tried those letter to and they seem to push the WS farther away. Don't give it to her...the only letter you should give her is a short Plan B letter and then go very dark. Plan B will help you rebuild your self esteem and self respect as long as you stay dark and committ to what you wrote. Maybe then your WW will begin to regain some respect for you when she sees that you stand by what you say. I speak from experience since my WW lost her respect for me and now I'm in a dark Plan B. She is slowly showing signs of her old self as she doesn't seem to like me being dark.


Interesting. I can't give her a plan B letter until she is walking out the door. You see, after tomorrows talk she will not be able to move out right away. Infact, I believe she will drag her heels. Also, Steve originally did not want me to "ask her to leave because he felt it would give her a "cause." However, he can now see I am in desperate need of healing and now reccomends it. I must go with Steve on this as he just spent two hours with her and I on the phone and even he was stunned at just how controlling she is right now. She tried to control him!

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If this has been going on this long, I don't expect it to get better soon and that means Plan B may be your best option. However, before you go into Plan B you need to take care of all the details to minimize breaking it.


Let me rephrase something. Our M was deteriorating over several years. I had tried to plan A since April of 2004 onwards. However, it was half-assed as I could not quite get or master some of the LBs I was doing. Admittedly, there are still some purists on the EN board that would tell you I have not mastered LBs at all. Steve says different to me. However, it was not until this last April that my W totally disconnected from our M and allowed someone else to connect with her emotionally. Therefore, in the purest of senses, I have been plan Aing since April 11, 2006. Steve did not come into the picture until the middle of May. If you want to get totally technical, one could argue that my real plan A did not begin until then, which puts me at almost 5 months. At the time I first talked with Steve, he asked me for a solid 6 months. I promised him this and I guess, came up short. Things became too much to bear for me. I could only turn the other cheek for so long. Her independent life style became too much for me to bear coupled with her horrible things she would say to me, such as her being near me makes her sick to her stomach, or that she has not seen any change in me at all. For crying out loud, I now weigh 196, which is 40 lbs liter than the middle of May! Everyone comments on it and W says she does not notice because she "sees me all the time and it is hard to notice the change because of this."

Anyway, my anger started to swell up inside of me and the last two talks, I exposed some critical evidence that Steve was telling me to wait on. However, after telling Steve what I did, he felt I did the right thing. Of Course W came up with really lame and off the wall excuses and turned my evidence on me as if I was a bad person. You can only discount a lovers Hallmark card so much, or a love note, or a hotel bill hidden away. Because of my anger and my slipping up, Steve said it would only get worse and my anger would only grow. He asked me what I wanted to do. I told him I wanted to do whatever I could to put my M in the best possible position for success and that if he told me making it through the rest of the year trying to plan A, then I would find the way to do it. He told me this would not be the case and that I am going to seperate, it is just a matter of when to pull the trigger. We agreed on it being tomorrow night.

Tomorrow, W gets back in time to pick up S from Chess club (he is in 1st grade). Then I come home around 6:15 and take S swimming with me from 7:15 - 9:00. We will get home and put him tobed and then this is when I was planning to ask my W for a few minutes of her time. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

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If this has been going on this long, I don't expect it to get better soon and that means Plan B may be your best option. However, before you go into Plan B you need to take care of all the details to minimize breaking it.


Do go on. This is something I am worried about. You see, Steve and I decided this last Thursday night. I have not talked with a lawyer yet. I have not been able to do much, except compose my thoughts, which you read and consider everything I need to get my arms around (financially speaking).

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Will she leave when you ask her to? What if she says no?


She has been threatening to "find her own place" a couple of times now. I believe it was a control tool to stuff me back in my box. I really think she will resist leaving at first because she has been a homemaker for 7 years. She has not taken the opportunity to really look for a job, or go to college, or start her own business or whatever, since our S has started full time school. We have discussed this and I supported her doing any of those things. She dedicated herself to our family for 7 years, giving up her working so our S had a parent at home. I believe this is part of our issue as we feel she lost self-worth along the way. Right now, she has (or should I say had) one of the best opportunities in front of her to do whatever she wanted. I guess she actually chose what she "wanted" to do, watch Sylvia Brown on Montel. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

I probably will not have much sleep tonight and would appreciate any and all comments to help me through the night. I am going to be around on this post for a while I'm afraid.

Best Wishes,

EL

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Is anyone still up?

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I'm here, but with little to say. I always feared you would wind up in this situation. I agree you need to do Plan B for you. I hope it brings you healing. Peace.


When you can see it coming, duck!
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Hey Hold,

Its been a while. I could not help but see that things seem to be looking up for you. Fill me in. I am happy for your situation turning around.

As for me, please do not fear for me. I finally know that a lot of the badgering and negativity I recieved from some posters was actually miss placed. Steve helped me to actually see that my WW was being VERY controlling towards me. He experienced this first hand last week and was shocked at just how controlling she really was.

I am sad that it seems my M could not turn around from doing a plan A, but as I am learning, not many Ms do. Having said this, I do wish you well my friend.

As it is now Monday, I am scared for what this day will bring....

Take Care,

EL

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Do you feel your mind and heart are in sync so you can do a good plan B? Do you know the purpose of plan B? Have you identified your personal and M boundaries for YOU? Are you ready to implement them?

L.

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Hello Orchid,

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Do you feel your mind and heart are in sync so you can do a good plan B? Do you know the purpose of plan B? Have you identified your personal and M boundaries for YOU? Are you ready to implement them?


How can you ask so much in so few words?

I am nervous, scared, sad, concerned, frightened, angry, depressed, drained, tired and somehow feel underlying moments of calm. Sound crazy?

My mind is going back and forth as to how rational it is to tell my W to leave in order to have a great M with her. My heart is screaming at me to not let go. My body is telling me it is time.

My personnel boundaries have been trampled on for far too long. My M boundaries have been ripped apart even longer.

What are you getting at?

Thanks,

EL

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Ya know Orchid,

I just read TrueHeart's letter and wonder if I should not print it off and give it to my WW tomorrow after our "discussion."

What do you think?

EL

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Hi EL,

I think it is time, and I hope the Plan B works and your wife comes to her senses.

For those who were asking about EL's history, I've been following his posts for over two years now. It is about 2.5 years since he started posting on MB. For most of that time though, based on his own posts about himself, he was a neverending LB firehose as far as I could see. It's been in about the last 6-7 months that I've seen real change in his behavior.

So when he tells you how long he's been doing "Plan A", he's talking about how long he's been posting on MB. The actual Plan A has been under six months. Unfortunately, his wife has been pretty unreceptive to the changes as far as I've been able to see, and given the presence of an OM, that's sadly no surprise. Argh.

EL, I don't see what else you can do at this point other than Plan B. I hope it brings her back to her senses. Hang in there. How are you doing on getting good sleep these days? Is that any better?

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Hello MOS,

It is really good to hear from you.

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I think it is time, and I hope the Plan B works and your wife comes to her senses.


Thanks for the nice wishes. I am scared and uncertain what today will bring. If she refuses to actually move out, then I am not sure how things will go. Steve has mentioned to me about doing a plan B while still in the same house. He agrees that in my situation, I should not move out of the house. Not really sure what situation it is actually ok to move out of the house. Oh well, this is why I pay an expert - right?

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For those who were asking about EL's history, I've been following his posts for over two years now. It is about 2.5 years since he started posting on MB. For most of that time though, based on his own posts about himself, he was a neverending LB firehose as far as I could see. It's been in about the last 6-7 months that I've seen real change in his behavior.


Why MOS, I cannot begin to tell you just how much this paragraph really means to me. For those of you just joining my situation, MOS has been one of my toughest critics, which I welcome with open arms. I value everyone's opinion, as you may soon find out. MOS, your saying that you have seen me change for the better (notice I am not saying 100% perfect here <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />) gives me greater confidence that I am doing the right thing. Your opinion, coupled with Steve's opinion of our joint 2 hour phone call last Thursday, helps me to understand that where we are is not ALL my fault and that I am not a really horrible person. It also lets me know that for where we are right now, there most likely is nothing I can do other than a plan B to kick start something.

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So when he tells you how long he's been doing "Plan A", he's talking about how long he's been posting on MB. The actual Plan A has been under six months. Unfortunately, his wife has been pretty unreceptive to the changes as far as I've been able to see, and given the presence of an OM, that's sadly no surprise. Argh.


MOS is correct, I have been on MB for 2.5 years, but I think most are in agreement that I have probably not had a good plan A until 5 months or so ago. Also, not only is there the strong potential of this OM, but WW has also integrated herself into his family, which includes OM's brother whom has gone through quite a difficult and emotional time and talks regularly with WW. WW also talks regularly with OM's Mom. The girlfriend that WW has rekindle a relationship with and is visiting this weekend, used to date one of OM's brothers as well. This GF was in our wedding too. This is all a real mess. I even had the thoughts that maybe W is actually looking in a different direction. She went to see GF to go see a band play this weekend. Her last visit to this GF they saw this particular band play twice. This GF's boyfriend works the lightling for this band so they are getting to hang out with the band etc.. This weekend, I wondered if it were likely that WW was interested in someone in this band perhaps. The only thing for sure is that she is not interested in me at the moment. Steve H. also through in the idea that she may not be interested in anyone and is just very stubborn. He says he has also seen this before. So, I am very confused still, but feel my path is becoming clearer as I still sleep on the couch, W shows no desire to even investigate fixing our M, W continues to treat me coldly etc..

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EL, I don't see what else you can do at this point other than Plan B. I hope it brings her back to her senses. Hang in there. How are you doing on getting good sleep these days? Is that any better?


Thank you MOS, I too hope plan B brings her back to reality, but as I have had to learn, plan B is more for me. I need distance so I can heal myself and protect my S. Can you actually believe WW wanted to take S out of school on Friday and Monday so she could have this weekend to do as she pleased? She was going to drop him off at her dad's. I am trying to hang in there. Great people like yourself are going to be a great help. The sleep thing has not really gotten better as a whole. I have a ton of things falling down around me at my business as you might expect. I cannot let this drop anylonger as we are doing two expansions at the moment and increasing our staff by over 50%. As far as loosing sleep over my M (other than tonight <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />), this has lessened. I still have sad moments as expected, but they are becoming fewer I have noticed. I am really worried about S and how this is all going to effect him. He is so precious and does not diserve any of this.

Best Wishes & Thank You,

EL

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EL, just wanted to pop in and say I'm praying for peace and healing for you and your family. You're in good hands!

(((EL)))


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Extremely Lost

I'm sorry it's come to this.

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I just can't help or get over the feeling that I am doing the wrong thing by asking her to leave. To me it seems so counter intuitive that I must tell my W to leave in order to save our M........

It is counter intuitive, until you look at all the damage that's being done to the marriage and to you by allowing the situation to continue as it is. At some point (if you're not careful), the BS becomes the biggest barrier to marital recovery.

As for the letter -- gathering of your thoughts -- I think it strikes the wrong tone. I'm not trying to be harsh (I hope you know that) but this is more of the same thing she's been hearing over and over again from you. After the second sentence her eyes are probably going to glaze over Here he goes again and she's not even going to be with you when you "drop the bomb."

Besides that, you're slipping back into using the "royal WE" again....

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We both feel the other was not hearing our cries and would continue to hurt us. I now know that each of us was doing the best that we could with the relationship tools we had inside us at the time. We began to feel controlled and less loved by the other. We were not able to realize that our partner loved and cared for us deeply because of our feeling that we for some reason, needed to protect ourselves.

I think you're honestly trying to 'team build' by verbally putting both of you in the same boat. Unfortunately, it comes across as more pompous than teambuilding.

My suggestion:

- do something very different to catch her attention
- keep it short and to the point
- look up Orchid's posts on reverse babble

I envision something more like this:



"You're right."


(Catchy opener.. that generally catches people's attention because people love to hear they're right.)

If you're done with this relationship and I'm making you sick to your stomach, then I would like you to move out. I love you and I married you for life, but I don't want you to live here if you're done with this marriage and I'm making you sick to your stomach.

Then STOP!

Be prepared for her to react (she always does) and practice your reverse babble.

Here are some ideas:



She says: Why do I have to move out? You should be the one to leave!

You say: I'm not the one who's done with this marriage nor am I the one who's getting sick. I don't want to leave.

---

She says: I knew this would happen! This is all about sex! I told you that you haven't changed.

You say: I have changed. I no longer want to live with someone who doesn't want to partner in marriage with me. I've also changed my mind about sleeping on the couch. I'll be sleeping in the bedroom starting tonight.

She says: I told you I'd move to the guest room!

You say: That's fine until you can make other arrangements.

---

She says: Fine! Then we'll get a divorce.

You say: I'll file for divorce when I want one.

---

She says: What about DS? I'm taking him with me!

You say: No, I think it's in his best interest to stay here in his neighborhood in his school for now. I'm sure he'll miss you when you're not here but we'll manage. I assume you'll visit him.

---

She says: This is it! I'm filing for divorce. I'll never forgive you for this!

You say: I wonder how soon our son will forgive. (Ok, that one's not nice but I think you should consider it anyway. Just don't append us, you, or me onto the end of it.)



Remember, you're really trying to get her to move out so you can do an effective plan B. Don't give into her attempts to draw you into the old patterns where it's all your fault and you're being mean to her. Right now, you're changing tactics and 'agreeing' with how she feels. If she's done with the marriage, then she needs to leave the marital home. Don't worry about the Plan B message (what she has to do to get back home) until she leaves otherwise you'll be under constant barrage about that.

This whole conversation needs to be calm, short, and you should be ready to disengage and go somewhere else (running) if she becomes too distraught.

Last thing. Steve is not a lawyer nor does he give legal advice. Are you worried she'll take your son out of state? If so, call your lawyer and see what you can do about that.

Good luck,

Mys

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Hello EL,

I, too, am sorry it's come to this. Goodness knows you've been trying very hard to make this M stick. I feel drained just having to try to help you through it ... I can't imagine how zapped you must be.

I wish the best for you. I do think you need to start working towards other possible endings to your situation. Continuing to stay M'ed to this person your W has become isn't healthy for anyone. Hopefully the Plan B shakes her to her core and she begins to come around. It will be a long road though so be prepared to have more energy than ever before. It's going to take a lot of strength to work at being dark and moving on. It's your general nature to look at things through rose-colored glasses and I fear you'll get sucked back into this nightmare R.

Don't forget to ask for help on how to explain this calmly to your S. I'm sure he'll be devastated but things cannot continue as they are. They'll soon become toxic for everyone including him.

Again I'm sorry to hear things haven't changed. I was ready to send a call out to you last week seeing it had been too long since we'd heard from you. And as I feared your silence meant things weren't improving.

Take note of what Myschae has said. Your letter would be torn to shreds by SH if you showed it to him. This isn't the way to go dark. This isn't a good Plan B letter. Myschae hit on something when she talked about you discussing things in the "Royal WE" sense. There is no "Royal WE" right now as your W doesn't see the future that you see. Talking to her in that sense will only cause her to miss what you are truly trying to say. "Recovering a M takes work but a lost M and lost love can be recovered.".

I love Myschae's proposed dialogue to when your W comes home. Do it just like that. It's reverse babble time. Time to go dark. (If you need good pointers search through MyWifeILove's story to find the part where he went dark. That's how you need to be. You need to know you're going to be OK with out her and you need to start making that happen (just in case she doesn't come around.).

Good luck EL. And special good luck tonight. I'll be watching for ya.

Last edited by MyAlias; 10/09/06 08:57 AM.

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I've been following for some time now and I wish you well tonight and the following days...it'll be tough, but hang in there EL...prayers to you and yours

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Hello ears_open,

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EL, just wanted to pop in and say I'm praying for peace and healing for you and your family. You're in good hands!

(((EL)))


Thank you so much for the kind words. They mean so much to me in my darkest hour.

EL

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Hello Mys,

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I'm sorry it's come to this.


Me too Mys, me too.

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It is counter intuitive, until you look at all the damage that's being done to the marriage and to you by allowing the situation to continue as it is. At some point (if you're not careful), the BS becomes the biggest barrier to marital recovery.


I know you are right. Deep down I know this.

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As for the letter -- gathering of your thoughts -- I think it strikes the wrong tone. I'm not trying to be harsh (I hope you know that) but this is more of the same thing she's been hearing over and over again from you. After the second sentence her eyes are probably going to glaze over Here he goes again and she's not even going to be with you when you "drop the bomb."


Keep in mind I will be speaking once again with Steve today at 2:30 my time. I need a final pep talk! Also, this is not meant to be a plan B letter. Not yet. It is a letter from my heart describing how I feel and what I think right now. To me, this letter is more for me than for her, if this makes any sense. I am delivering it to her as I feel I need to for me to come to the conclusion that it is time for her to move out. The "bomb" will come across.

I know you are not trying to be harsh and I have NEVER EVER taken any of your advice to be harsh. You are right, it is more of the same thing she has been hearing. It is the last time she is going to hear it too. Maybe her eyes will glaze over, but I would bet against it. You see, Steve had me go very dark Thursday night. I did not even say good bye or be around her when she packed. I did not answer text messages or stay on the phone with her at all this weekend. She has done some little things to try and be nice (is the only reason I can think of). She picked up OJ for me before she left; she TMed me regarding how my eye was doing; she left a note signed "Love mommy (W)." The first two of these she actually mentioned to me that she did this almost looking for a pat on the back, which never came. I have NEVER been as I have for any of her trips before. I believe she must have an idea that something is headed her way in a hurry.

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Besides that, you're slipping back into using the "royal WE" again....

Actually, this was deliberate because it is true. WE have both hurt each other. WE have both ignored each others feelings. WE have both put S ahead of our R/M. I mean each and every carefully selected word I wrote.

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I think you're honestly trying to 'team build' by verbally putting both of you in the same boat. Unfortunately, it comes across as more pompous than teambuilding.

My suggestion:

- do something very different to catch her attention
- keep it short and to the point
- look up Orchid's posts on reverse babble


I am not sure that I feel it is pompus, but if you say so, I tend to believe what you say. However, what I wrote is all true. She has told me this stuff and I have also felt the same way. I am just re-itterating what she has told me and letting her know I have felt the same. There are two of us in this thing still.

I did read Orchid's post on reverse babble last night. I also read Trueheart's letter and have printed it out. Iwould like to read what I have written and give it to W. Then I would also like to give her a copy of Trueheart's letter to read on her own time if she decides to. I will find out how Steve feels about all this. In my own letter, I tried to stay away from anything to do with an affair. The undeniable truths are enough to warrant what I am asking of her, without clouding things with dissputable conjecture.

Rememmber, I actually and doing something very different here. I have gone way dark and am now asking her to move out. This in and of itself is very different from how I have been. She feels I have been keeping her locked away in our house and would not let go. I am now releasing the bird. She will hear this message. I am not sure how she will react, but she will hear it. She will then know that she can no longer use leaving as a tool for controlling me. The only thing she will have left to use is S. I am sure that she will try to use S, unfortunately. This is because she will be overcome with feelings of insecurity and latch onto the only thing left. I am prepared for this (atleast tonight). I am ready to say, "S needs both his parents and he is the biggest thing in our lives at this point and we need to be very careful with him. He diserves our very best and we must consider what is in his best interests. Because of this, I do not feel that tonight is the right time to be discussing S."

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"You're right."


(Catchy opener.. that generally catches people's attention because people love to hear they're right.)

If you're done with this relationship and I'm making you sick to your stomach, then I would like you to move out. I love you and I married you for life, but I don't want you to live here if you're done with this marriage and I'm making you sick to your stomach.


Normally, I would agree with you. However, I see this as her seeing me as throwing a fit because she went away for the weekend. I think Steve would agree with me as he witnessed her in her full glory last Thursday. My letter and direction has remained consistent throughout the last 6 months. It does not come across as punishing her for her choices. Steve asked me to maintain the concept that there is an opportunity put in front of us. He wants her to realize that there is a way for us to have a great M and that she is CHOOSING to not investigate this possibility. Steve feels this is the key right now. Once she accepts that there is a way, but she is CHOOSING instead of using the excuse that she HAS NO CHOICE, he feels reality will start to slip in.

Basically, it does not really matter what I write or say. I could stand up and sing the Star Bangled Banner and it would not make a difference right now because she is in such a fog. She has started to even not do things for our S. She did not have him brush his teeth before school for three days in a row last week. She called 30 minutes after his bed time every night this weekend. Last night she said it was because she was gambling and wanted to call when she got back to the house. Never occured to her that this would be a great use for her cell phone!

Since it does not really matter what I say to her right now, as long as I get the message across that she should move out, then why not say something that means something to me? Why not do something that would make me feel better because it came from my heart?

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She says: Why do I have to move out? You should be the one to leave!

You say: I'm not the one who's done with this marriage nor am I the one who's getting sick. I don't want to leave.


Actually, this would create further arguing. What I am thinking of saying here is that I cannot afford to move out and pay for the mortgage of this house at the same time. Therefore, she either moves out or we put a for sale sign up. Since S is already established with friends in this neighborhood, for his sake, it would be in the best interest of S that we keep this house. Therefore, the only sensible thing is for me to stay in this house.

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She says: I knew this would happen! This is all about sex! I told you that you haven't changed.

You say: I have changed. I no longer want to live with someone who doesn't want to partner in marriage with me. I've also changed my mind about sleeping on the couch. I'll be sleeping in the bedroom starting tonight.

She says: I told you I'd move to the guest room!

You say: That's fine until you can make other arrangements.


Actually, she won't say it is about sex anymore. She will say it is about me being upset with her going away for the weekend to see a girl friend and that she is not letting me control her to the point she is agreeing to go for the MB weekend.

However, I do like your response regarding that I have changed and that I no longer want to live with someone who does not want to partner with me in our M. I am not too crazy about sleeping in my bed right now as I have explained before. Therefore, I am not going to push to sleep in our bedroom alone.

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She says: Fine! Then we'll get a divorce.

You say: I'll file for divorce when I want one.


This is good. Maybe I should add, "You need to do what you feel you need to do."

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She says: What about DS? I'm taking him with me!

You say: No, I think it's in his best interest to stay here in his neighborhood in his school for now. I'm sure he'll miss you when you're not here but we'll manage. I assume you'll visit him.


I have to be careful here. I cannot stop her from walking out the door with S. I also do not want S to see that he is in a tug of war. I would most likely fall back to what I said earlier. I would also say that I am completely willing to work out something fair to both of us and to S.

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She says: This is it! I'm filing for divorce. I'll never forgive you for this!

You say: I wonder how soon our son will forgive. (Ok, that one's not nice but I think you should consider it anyway. Just don't append us, you, or me onto the end of it.)


Actually, it is a great line.

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Remember, you're really trying to get her to move out so you can do an effective plan B. Don't give into her attempts to draw you into the old patterns where it's all your fault and you're being mean to her. Right now, you're changing tactics and 'agreeing' with how she feels. If she's done with the marriage, then she needs to leave the marital home. Don't worry about the Plan B message (what she has to do to get back home) until she leaves otherwise you'll be under constant barrage about that.

This whole conversation needs to be calm, short, and you should be ready to disengage and go somewhere else (running) if she becomes too distraught.


Yep. I realize that my ultimate showing of love towards her is to remain calm and not fall into any arguing or yelling. I need to deliver the message and then back away. I am not worried about the plan B message as much as I am worried about how this is all going to go down. I am also concerned with if she decides to stay in the house. Steve feels I could still plan B with her in the house, but it would be extremely tough!

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Last thing. Steve is not a lawyer nor does he give legal advice. Are you worried she'll take your son out of state? If so, call your lawyer and see what you can do about that.


Can you say Amber Alert? If I must get into it with her because she just won't let it go for the night and she threatens to take S away that night, I will then say, "WW, look. I am willing to be completely fair here and feel that 4 days with you, then 4 days with me is reasonable. I am not willing to give up more than 50% of S. If I feel forced into a corner on this, I will fight for my rights as his father and what is truely in his best interests."

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Good luck,


Mys, thank you so much! You have always been an inspiration to me. I really appreciate you stopping by on this critical day to offer your support. I can't tell you how much this means to me. Some day I will be able to.

Take Care,

EL

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