Extremely Lost


Good.


I understand this is hard for you. Maybe these feelings are part of the mourning that you need to do for this relationship (if it's over -- it's not over yet). I suggest that you try to mourn later, if you can.

You can't control how your wife sees you or what her support structure is telling her. Right now, you're in a naturally adversarial position because you two have very different goals. She can't realistically expect you to support her divorce filing; anymore than you can realistically expect her to marriage build.

You've both stated that you want opposite things -- therefore you're on opposite sides.

The answer to this is NOT to just 'give in' and make her happy, though. Go read up on a poster called Papaof3, if you want to see where that ends up. He gave his wife a divorce in 3 months, ended up with no custody (has to take her back to court) and in severe financial straits. She told him 'if he was nice' then maybe someday they'd get back together but now that all is said and done she has decided she doesn't want to go back.

When is your appt with the lawyer? When is your next appt with SH?

Try to keep your wits about you and don't make decisions out of guilt or appeasement. Be fair to YOURSELF as well as your wife and child. There's no good that will come of it if you just roll over and give her whatever she asks for in the hope that she'll "like" you again. She will never respect you if you do that.


Maybe and maybe not. You all ready know that she doesn't forgive - she doesn't know how. She hasn't forgiven you for stuff in the distant past even after you've changed. That's her problem; not yours.

Final note: Your wife has a strong support network and it sounds like she's getting good advice (as far as how to carry out a divorce). Here's a key different that I observe between your wife and you: When your wife decides to actually take advice, she follows it to the letter. You .. tend to let your emotions (guilt/anxiety or denial/romanticism) get the better of you. Pay attention to that because it tends to get you in trouble. (P.S. I'm not talking necessarily about advice from here, a public internet board, though some of that can be excellent. I'm talking about advice from professionals (SH and your lawyer).)

I'm thinking of you today and wishing you strength and as much peace as you can muster.

Mys

How did you think she was going to proceed with this D? You say adversarial like it's something new to your R. I think this element has always been there. I've heard enough from your W to claim she has quite a closed mind ... stubborn I think is what you called it.

I never imagined she would become this soft hearted individual who felt like this M just wasn't going to work and that you two would just work together to end it peacefully. Nope. As soon as I heard she filed papers I knew she wasn't going to start creating controversy and become even more adverserial.

I don't know if she feels guilty and is reacting to that or if she feels anger because she still feels you are totally to blame for the M's demise. But I do know she's made her mind up to end it and she can't feel justified in ending it if you two are amicable and working peacefully together. She almost instinctively will create conflict to justify her position of wanting to end it.

Yes I know these are assumptions and DJs.

What was your response to her insult? If we know anything about you EL is that you are not malicious. Maybe she's fearful you will become that but she has little to go on to make that leap. I would have stated something along the lines of "I know I have my share of issues that I brought into this M but being mean and malicious has never been one of those issues. If it's your intention to hurt me during this very tough time so be it. I'm going to take the high road so that we may try to get through this peacefully. I still care about you and I still love you.". And then I would have walked away ignoring anything she'd try to say back.

Thinking about the car her statement makes no sense. You have the same amount of power to sell the car with or without a loan (I don't know how much power but it's the same regardless of a loan.). I think she was seizing the opportunity to feel you out. To try to create some anger in you. Maybe she's purposefully trying to bait you so she has something to use in court. Remember take the high road. Let her know you're trying to work with her so that you can continue on with your lives in a fashion that would be of the most benefit to your S. And do not let her question your loyalty to your family. You've hung on this long for the sake of that.

PS: I sent you an email at your arcindy.com address.

EL,
I am going to join back in with the chorus and say that you MUST now concentrate all of your efforts on having a structure for you and S that is healthy. This will mean that you must now ONLY think of S and yourself. If you could plan B, that is what you would be doing. No thoughts of how this will affect WW. You are now no longer faced with the choice of D or not, now you are heading in that direction.

Take a moment to think of your future with your S. Do you want to be as financially secure as possible? Do you want to be mentally strong and happy? If your answers are a resounding YES, then start NOW.

Yes, this is hard on WW, also, but that is not your concern right now. You are your concern, you care about you. When you do see lawyer for more than a consult, be firm on what YOU need/want. This is not about being nice, this is about your future. Yes, today sucks, but your future is at stake. YOUR future.

EL, the legal system will not give you any points for being fair or reasonable. In divorce court, the typically overworked judge's paramount concern is to close the case. If the parties agree to something, the judge will OK it to get the case closed. So if you agree to a bad deal, the judge will let you have it. And then, after the divorce is final and you wake up and realize what you have done to yourself, the judge will hold you to what you agreed to.

The standard in almost every state for custody is best interest of the child. During the divorce, there is a wide spectrum of arrangements that might be in the child's best interest. After the divorce is final, there is a huge value placed on keeping the child's world stable. So while you might be able to get the judge to approve custody arrangement x today as being marginally better than arrangement y, after the judge approves arrangement y, you might not be able to get the judge to CHANGE things to arrangement x. You have to get what is good for you NOW. The playing field is not the same later.

Remember, after you get divorced you can always give your wife more money or more time with S than the decree requires if you want to show what a great guy you are. But you can't give her less. So go for the best deal for you regardless of how wife will react, and then you can show her what a great guy you are after the lawyers have left the building.

Hello all,

This past Sunday my W let me know that she has been reading my post. Although I am happy she has taken it upon herself to look at my thread on MB, I must agree with her that after reading this particular thread, it would give the impression that I am totally schemeing against her. It also would give off the impression that MB is not to much about marriage building at all. This is unfortunate, but true. She also told me her reading this post is what helped her decide to file for a D.

As a lot of you know, one of the most important things to me (as I have stated many, many times throughout my 2.5 years of participating on MB) is to try and offer an unbiased explanation of what I was going through. I did all of this for one reason only. The reason was to help me understand what was/is happening in my own M and how to improve it and create the love we both so desired in our M. W has explained to me that I have spread my own version of our M to all of you and have solicited your support for me. I can understand how she may feel I am/was playing or soliciting support for me as a victim.

I have asked W if she actually read my earlier threads on the emotional needs section and she did not offer me a clear answer. I wished she would because I had invited her to this site the entire 2.5 years I have been around it. I am not sure if she will be viewing this site anyfurther, but if she does I would sure hope that she is willing to offer her own POV as I have obviously failed miserably to accurately represent an unbiased explanation of our M. Because of this I feel I have failed our M, and her.

What she found on by reading just this thread was a false impression of what MB is about and truely represents. The name calling is not appropriate, especially towards the woman I truely love, even in these very difficult times. My W is stubborn. This is one of the things that attracted me to her in the first place. She is also very intelligent, bright, social, loving, kind, affectionate and a great mother. I am not saying all this because I think she may read this thread. I am saying this to all of you who have worked with me over the years. I am sure there is no changing my W's mind on MB now nor would I blame her.

The one time she actually looked at MB and it was people helping me consider a plan "B." She does not understand that a plan "B" is to SAVE our M and takes the most love a person could have for another to do. In our current emotional state, I am not sure she will want to even try to understand that throughout all of this I have meant her no harm or malice. I would NEVER try to take our S away from her as I believe she is a GREAT mom and our S would loose out if he could not grow up experiencing her thoughts, views and love. I only hope I am allowed to share the same thoughts, views and love not only with S, but also with W.

I am not sure that this will happen. W does not feel she can ever trust me and is not comfortable considering taking initial steps towards trying to even think of trusting me. I can only imagine how hurt and horrified she may have felt with this thread being her first impression of MB. I can only imagine her thinking that this is the type of thing that I have been talking about for 2.5 years. It is a tragedy and an injustice, not only for my M, but for MB as a whole.

Posters should ALWAYS remember that the ONLY reason we are ALL on this site is for the soul purpose of building our Ms into something great. This totally means that protecting both spouses is paramount towards the success of MB. I must now carry the burden of whatever the future may hold for me and my family. I just hope that in the future, we all remember that along with our words comes a responsibility to all poster's and their spouses. Although we all may from time to time carry strong opinions, we must temper this with common sense and understanding with a heaping spoonful of kindness.

I do not know if my W will ever wish to save our M and build something wonderful together anymore. I can only pray that she may at some point. As tonight I am still her H, it is still my role to protect her and her feelings. I will take one day at a time now and be thankful for each day I am gifted by her.

Best wishes to all,

EL

Hi EL,

Well, I'm sorry your wife has chosen to see this thread (or at least tell you that she sees this thread) as justification for the steps she's taken...

I went back and re-read some of your early posts on this thread. If she'd read what you'd written with a tender heart, she would have seen CLEARLY that divorce is NOT something you want, nor is something you were pursuing.

I think it's baloney, EL. Just another way to tell you that this is all your fault.

****
Mrs. EL, if you're reading--let me ask you a question. If your decision to file for divorce was really about "fear" that EL was going to divorce you... then now that you know that isn't what he was planning, why don't you cease to pursue divorce?

Because it's BS, that's why.

For once, stop blaming this man and take ownership of your decisions. YOU don't want to be married to him anymore. He clearly (and for reasons I don't necessarily understand) wants to be married to you.

Are you really going to try to blame him and this THREAD for your decision?
*****

EL, don't buy it. It doesn't matter what anyone wrote on this thread, but YOU. And everything you've written is clearly about wanting to save your marriage.

The concept of a plan B is clear from your posts (especially your first couple) and she could have read up on it to find out exactly what it is.

She is trying to evade her responsibility and her choice by making it your fault.

Do not fall for it. And don't blame us either.

The decision to file for divorce (as well as the previous decision to cease working on your marriage) can only be owned by your wife.

(((((EL)))))

EL

I don't know if you're still reading here or will reply but I'll post this to you and possibly Mrs. El, as well.


Ok. It might be true that this played into that decision. Everything you posted was about wanting to save your marriage BUT getting her involved in participating in it. Is she angry that you were 'scheming' against her to get her to participate in your marriage -- make a choice?

Once again, what were you supposed to do? Your wife refused to find any plan to help your marriage.


Of course you are! This is to be expected as we are your SUPPORT system. I seriously doubt she's being objective to her SUPPORT system.


I would love to see her here too BUT I do worry about her not being treated as kindly and gently as she'd like. She might like to post on saveyourmarriage.com (Penny's site) instead because that's more closely moderated.


OF COURSE!! That's where you are in your plan with SH.


She hasn't trusted you for years, El. She hasn't forgiven you for years, either. Honestly, I know you aren't some saint and you have definite ownership in the state of your relationship but you do not own everything Refuse to pick it up.

If MB bothers her so much, then ask her to pick any other plan that involves fixing your marriage and promise never to post here again until that is resolved (obviously all bets are off if you get divorced).


Best wishes to you on your journey, my friend. I understand if you can't/don't/won't come back here anymore. I extend an invitation to your wife if she wants to come and post here to straighten all of us out. It's too bad she didn't read the 'beat up on EL' threads, eh?

I am concerned that she's now stripped you of your support system when I'm certain she has no intention of giving hers up. I am concerned that you're accepting responsibility and, unless you really have been misleading all of us, allowing her to re-write all history to make this totally your fault. I am concerned that you won't protect your interests in the divorce and will just 'give her everything' because you feel guilty or like a failure.

Take care of yourself. This really isn't your fault.


Mys

EL,

I'm sorry your W refuses to be responsible and accountable for her behaviors that have lead to the demise of your M.

I'm sure your W has a ton of redeeming qualities and that is why you are wanting this M to work. I'm sure that's why you are holding on to your love for her. At some point you need to see that her behaviors and her unwillingness to give up certain behaviors (like being unforgiving and being less than cooperative) are behaviors that she's not willing to let go of. And that makes her an unhealthy marriage partner. You have to weigh that against all those good qualities. You aren't going to be able to do end-arounds on those. They are there and we haven't seen any signs of them changing. It's been this long and she's still holding on to those values like they are her life-savers.

Even now that she's been here, EL, you continue to stick your unhealthy Giver out there. You continue to defend her to protect her at the sacrifice of yourself and all you've tried to accomplish the last 2.5 years. Your M may have been in trouble because of your shortcomings but it failed because she refused to forgive you and make attempts to work with you. There was never any sense of team in any of her efforts.

I challenge her to refute that. Oh I'm sure she's got HER ideas on why you're to blame but the honest truth is there was never any bend in her behavior that would have given off the appearance of being cooperative and open minded.

You spent a good portion of your M listening to her lead you down a false path. Then once she was so far withdrawn from you and your behavior she THEN decided to reveal to you what pushed her away. She did this after she was too far gone. And now she BLAMES you for all the problems in the M. If she admits to this then she needs to be accountable. She needs to go to great lengths to make amends.

You came here and tried to offer the most unbiased opinion you could of the events in your life. I think you did a good job of protecting your W despite your bad habit of trying to define her thoughts. You've spent 2.5 years of getting blasted for your behavior. You've changed a lot. You've done more than your share to make this M stick. You've been accountable for your shortcomings. Don't lose sight of that.

If your D does go through I hope you continue to stick around so you can continue to work on and improve yourself. You are a honest, decent person, a loving father, a hard working individual who is a great care provider, who is going to make some lovely woman very happy someday.

I agree with the others. Your wife is handing you a line to make you feel guilty. Don't buy into it.

I also agree that you probably need to go dark here. After all, I did tell you yesterday to "lawyer up". That goes for posting here also.

But I repeat my advice. Do not concede points in an effort to appear loving or reasonable. After all, why isn't your wife motivated to be fair to you if she still loves you? If her behavior was motivated by love, she wouldn't be seeking sole custody. If she is doing it for strategic reasons on her lawyer's advice, then she is playing hardball and you need to do the same or you will get steamrollered.

Sometimes it takes the pain of an adversarial divorce for people to realize what they are giving up and what it is going to REALLY be like afterward. Easier to accept the change if you paint an unreasonably rosy picture of what the divorce settlement will look like. If you really want to get back together, you need to win some points in the negotiating so you have something to offer to get her to delay / withdraw the divorce. If she gets everything she wants by fighting you, not much incentive on her part to call off the dogs and discuss reconciliation.

Oh, EL

Really? This person is no longer your wife, she is wayward still. She knows your buttons, and pushes them whenever she needs an excuse to harm you or your child. Please, take the blinders off! You have expressed OFTEN here, that you want nothing more than for your wife to see you and participate in making your marriage full and strong and happy again. You do not need to defend her, she needs to speak for herself. DO NOT give anymore. What purpose does this serve? She takes and takes from you, she files for a divorce because some people aren't nice to her. Oh, please! Grow up. Remember that your child is the most important person now. Your wife knows that she gave up, and she is again, blaming you and MB, not looking inward and seeing her own weaknesses.

Listen, if you don't want to come here, to the place that will allow you to see yourself, be yourself, and eventually be happy(with or without your M), that's your choice. Your wife only reading part of your story, well, it screams of "let me find a reason to support my actions". If your actions are true, and sound, you don't need reasons.

Your wife is DIVORCING you; DIVORCING your family; your son will never be the same again. She is leaving; stop holding on to some fantasy that she is something else. Yes, she may have shining qualities, but she is not giving that to you anymore.

Your WW did a half-arsed reading of this thread, without using a kind heart, to find a reason to expell you from her life. You must ask yourself, does this woman have any care or concern for me and my family, if she is going to throw it away? I don't care what we say or what we do, it matters only what YOU do. Eh, I'm babbling now. I'm very angry at the damage you allow your WW to bestow upon you. Please, take some time off, look at the situation without this forum for a while. No more excuses.

That makes sense to me. Plan B is pretty extreme, so it's not an easy thing to grasp as an intro to MB. If she read this thread, I think it's very logical of her to take it as an indication that she should consider her legal position. Plan B left to you to implement doesn't protect her rights. Divorce does. I'm not sure why any of the others would think this is a line -- it sounds very sensible to me.


I know you try, and the fact that you try as hard as you do is what has made it possible for people to try to help you. However, your posts are anything but unbiased. Many of us have remarked on your extreme self-centeredness time and again, and I know I at least have remarked that I'd divorce you for it. Given that, I just can't see it as very shocking that someone else would have the same reaction.


Sure, I can understand it too, because you've been doing both all along -- trying to get feedback on how to make the marriage you want, AND pleading for support and empathy. It's not an either/or deal, no matter what you'd like to believe. And getting support in a tricky situation is a good thing. Your wife has a support network and so should you.

No one presents and entirely unbiased view to their support network. Doing so would prevent the support network from fulfilling its function.

EL, you put your support network where she can see it and invited her to see for herself. It's worth asking her what you would see if she did the same -- if you saw what she and others said when she was feeling broken and hurt, would it all seem objective and fair? Undoubtedly not.

It could not be the MB posts that led EL's wife to file for divorce. Look at the timeline.

1. 10/08/06 Sunday:

EL posts asking for support in saving his marriage. 6 responses drift in giving opinions and support. None are bad. But many of the GQ2 folks dont know his story, they are a bit more emotional.

2. 10/09/06 Monday:

13 more responses drift in and then EL is noticing how cold and silent his wife is with him while they try an talk things out. After that there are a couple more supportive posts....

3. 10/10/06 Tuesday:

SHE FILES FOR DIVORCE TODAY. It appears to me that she has already picked the attorney maybe weeks or months ago. And had the appointment lined up for at least a few days if not weeks. SHE PLANNED THIS WAY BEFORE ANYTHING WAS POSTED ON THIS THREAD!

Even the time line shows it. Now she is blaming MB. And EL. Anyone but herself. This is really really sad. But the saddest part, EL, is you believe her. Maybe with this evidence I have shown you can realize she was planning this for a while now. Getting an appointment with an attorney takes days or weeks. Even finding an attorney takes a while.

Erm, maybe I missed something, but it doesn't sound to me like she's saying MB or this thread is *the* reason she's divorcing. It sounded to me like she said it was a factor in her choosing to file last Tuesday. Of course she'd already considered it, found a lawyer, made possible plans, etc. She doesn't appear to be trying to claim otherwise.

Looking at the situation that was in front of her at that time, and adding in reading whatever she did read on MB about Plan B, it seems perfectly sensible to me that she would judge it timely to act to protect her rights. Claiming that this is all somehow lying malice on her part seems pretty farfetched to me, and it also does not respect EL's plea that we speak respectfully of her.

I did not say it was lying malice. I meant it was her habit to blame others. Many people do that. Even I sometimes blame others for my mistakes.

All thru this, EL was trying to save the marriage. That is what is so sad.

No, he wasn't. Not by a long shot.

I'll grant you that he appears to be trying to save it now, but that is a quite recent development.

For most of his history on this board, EL was not concerned with a marriage with another human being, but only with what system of rules could work out a way for him to control his wife on some level. Most of his posting history shows him viewing MB as just another system of rules that were supposed to give him control, and if they didn't, either the rules or his wife must be broken. There were some fun hissyfits last winter that show yet another round of "MB doesn't work, because I stopped a large chunk of what I'm willing to admit are LBs, and my wife is still not magically doing what I want." Yikes.

It is sad that now we have one person trying to save the marriage and one not. However, as EL has known all along, you do not get infinite time to clean up your act. Your spouse doesn't have to take your crap forever. EL chose to take longer than his wife was willing to wait. It's sad, but pretending it's all her decision won't help EL get his life in order in the future.

I don't think she's lying maliciously. I'm sure that she's acting in what she believes to be her best interest (it might even objectively BE her best interest if she's truly done with this marriage).

I do worry that this "guilt trip" is something that EL might use to make more bad decisions such as not protecting himself but that's not her fault, either, when you come right down to it. However she feels about MB, how she was represented here, El scheming against her, etc. it's simply not reasonable for her to expect him not to protect/fight for his own best interest (and there's no indication that is what she does expect, by the way). Reproaching him for protecting his interests while doing the exact same thing is disingenuous. But, at least it's garden variety emotional manipulation.

Him buying into that and letting his guard down or trying to appease her by not fighting for everything he deserves is orders of magnitude worse (in the stupid direction). And, I think, that's where some of our defensiveness (on his part) is coming. Mine, at least, isn't directed towards her -- so much as towards him to not do something stupid!!


I'm not sure that those two things are mutually exclusive. El was trying to make the marriage better -- true to his definition of what 'better' meant which is the only realistic definition he could have used. In his defense, his wife had very little to say about what she wanted even when afforded the safe opportunity (in counseling and with SH). That El is bad at guessing isn't on the same level. He was operating without a compass.

Why would he move things in a direction to make things worse for himself absent any true data about whether it would make things better for his wife?


The divorce is her decision. It's clear the El did not want a divorce.

The choice to not engage and work on the marriage has been her decision. The choice not to engage in counseling, to pick some other method if MB was too offensive to her, to fill out questionaires or provide feedback, or to make a decision to end the relationship before getting into another relationship with another man are all things that she owns in this relationship. Nothing EL has ever done or will do will make him 'deserving' of those choices. Those are all her own and each and every one of them could torpedo a relationship just as quickly as El's annoying (and still present) habit of trying to re-write her reality.

No one is blameless in this debacle. The true tragedy is their son who may now have to adjust to a broken home. And, yes, my bias is that she hasn't put in nearly the 'work' she should have put into this relationship in order to sacrifice her son's familial stability so she can be happy. El might not have done 'enough' too but he's not the one currently pulling the plug.

No one should have to take 'crap' forever, however, if you can't be honest enough to engage long enough to provide meaningful feedback to a spouse that is begging for it -- then I don't call that due dilligence.

In her defense, though, if she's just really not going to re-engage in this marriage (for good reasons, bad reasons, any, or no reason at all) then the only responsible thing for her to do is to end the relationship and let El go. While doing that, I suppose I can't blame her for trying to advocate for herself as strongly as possible -- I can't even blame her for a little bad behavior (emotional manipulation) as this is a stressful thing to do.

I just know I'd make some different choices about what I'd ask for in terms of support for myself (vs our child) if I knew that I made the choice not to do due dilligence about repairing the marriage. I think I wouldn't then feel entitled to the Lexus, maintenance, etc. I think I'd feel like standing on my own two feet if I was the one who chose to walk away. And, that bleeds through as a bit of disdain for her, I guess.

Mys

Hello all,

There is no right or wrong in a dynamic that we are currently in right now. As much as I wish for my M to have atleast a fresh opportunity, I must also wish for my W to be happy in whatever direction she chooses. For life is a choice and always will be. I cannot make someone love me or even consider it just because I want them too. Thinking like this is one of the definitions of insanity and even I will admit to temporary insanity over the last 2.5 years. The truth is, I love my W and I am deeply saddened with where we are right now. She feels that she cannot trust me period. This covers everything as she needs to feel she can trust me if she were to ever allow me to meet her most important emotional needs.

Now, although I wish for her to be happy, this does not mean I am letting her off the hook. I am greatly hurt everyday (as I am sure she is) with each step our current process takes. We spoke today and I let her know up front that I am not going to participate in using our S as a leverage tool throughout our process. I have always been a good father and she has always been a good mother. No matter what emotions we are feeling, we would be horrible human beings and doing a grave injustice to our S if we were to say otherwise.

Right now, S needs to reamin our biggest concern and what is in his best interests. As both W and I are from families of divorce, we both know first hand the pain a D will cause our S. It is both of our responsibility to now protect what seems to be the one thing we both actually did right in our relationship - creating our wonderful and gifted son.

Maybe intime, our relationship may have a future opportunity, but it is clear right now that this takes two and currently there is still only one interested at the moment. Because of this, emotions MUST be set aside and all efforts need to be aimed towards the innocent, our child.

W does not deserve to be devestated due to our situation and neither do I. We both must be in a positon where we can do wonderful things with our S and share what life has to offer our S when he is with one or the other.

I will always love W and S. This I know and accept. I believe that W has some type of love for me deep down and may not be able to see it or even feel it exists right now. I have a lot of respect for my W, although I am emotionally devestated (not looking to play the victim role here as MOS will clearly point this out to any and all posters feeling they want to support me in this role).

As for MB, I have spent 2.5 years of my life learning and believing in MB. Not because it told me what I wanted to hear - YOUR M CAN BE SAVED AND CAN BE GREAT, but because it was the first type of help that actually got through to me and helped me to understand some of my shortfalls I otherwise would not have been able to see. The only example I can give is that of a person who needs glasses, but has never worn them. You see things constantly blurry and then one day you get an eye exam and are given your first pair of glases. You are amazed at just how crystal clear some things appear. I am thankful to MB for having shown me and taught me how to be a better person. It has improved my life.

I feel sorry for MB to the extent that it does get a negative wrap when a spouse does finally decide to look at it and only sees the intense discussions at the height of pain of their respective spouse. Infact, it is even made more skewed because of some posters that are well intended and share a ride on the individual's emotional roller coaster.

Even tonight my W mentioned some examples where I had posted something, but did not share the "whole" story. This was in part because I had not considered nor even thought about some of the things she mentioned from her angle before (although it does not mean I shouldn't have). However, these examples also show why it is so important to have both spouse's actually posting because both POVs are invaluable. I know, at times during our M, my W did not feel like engaging me with her opinions, most likely out of fear that I would reject her POVs and try to force her to insert/accept my own POV. For whatever reason my W did not feel comfortable sharing her POV with me, this did not change my very strong desire to try and figure out some way of trying to improve our M. I was desperate to solicit many poster's POVs to try and understand where my W may have been coming from. I knew one fact, it was not my POV she had and therefore, I was on a quest to find others who did not share my POV in the hopes that just maybe I would stumble across that ever important POV that would offer me the greatest insight into how my W might feel. Of course, I know realize this is pretty futile as the only true way to get this POV is from your spouse. If they are unwilling or unable to give you this, you are pretty much stuck.

I do hope that my W decides to actually try out a post here. I also know, and hope she will at somepoint learn, that most of the posters on MB are extremely fair and reasonable. There is nothing to actually fear on this board as it is a true support board. I have been honest with my W all along that I was on this board. I had asked her repeatedly to read MB books, look at the sight and go to a seminar and speak to SH. She may feel over powered by MB due to my enthusiasm and belief that MB would work for us. I understand how she could have this opinion and also feel unprotected by me based upon some of the things she has read. The truth is that I would (and have) defended her to the bitter end. I can't deliberately hurt someone I truely love. Call it a personality fault of mine, but it is my fault to own.

Welcome to MB Mrs. EL. May you eventually find something that will help you with this philosophy. It is NOT A CULT. There is not orange robes, not monthly fee, no forced kool-aid breaks and no gatherings on a big rock awaiting a mothership. It is an independent support sight, which due to this independence as well as privacy, runs the natural risks of having a few strongly independent viewpoints interjecting regardless of how hurtful these POVs or opinions can be. However, everyone is entitled to their own opinion. I now welcome and invite yours to this thread. Your POV is one of the MOST important ones that could be posted on this thread, no! It is THE most important POV that could grace this thread.

To my W, I love you.

To my fellow posters, I thank you.

May you all find peace.

EL

That's nice, but when the "better" is defined as destructively as EL defined it for much of his time here, it seems sophistry at best to say he was trying to save the marriage.


When I read this, I began to wonder if we were talking about the same person. She gave him a lot of information he chose not to use, so operating without a compass was his choice, not hers.

It's true she could have provided more information, but what's the point of that when the information you do provide gets disregarded or argued down? When what you want is to at least be left in peace, and providing information gets you someone who is bigger than you are relentlessly following you about your home having a visibly agitated fit, why would you do that?


That sounds again like we're not even talking about the same people. He's had room all along for LB improvements in areas where his wife had expressed discomfort.


This sounds like sophistry again, since it leaves out the fact that choosing not to provide a safe environment for her to engage was EL's decision.



I'm back to wondering who we're talking about again. Of course no one is blameless -- that's my whole point.


When due diligence as you define it involves engaging a bully who is larger than you and uses your joint decision for you not to work and your resulting economic dependence to try to coerce you into having no life that is not devoted to his service and who uses his size to intimidate you following you from room to room endlessly having a visibly agitated hissyfit whenever he chooses, I think your definition of due diligence needs some serious work.

When that same bully gets drunk and chooses to physically intimidate the living daylights out of you, so far as I'm concerned, there is no due diligence required any longer. I'm still surprised he's not in jail.


Ok, so you feel disdain that she's not following your own advice to EL to advocate for herself as strongly as possible? I'm puzzled at the assumption that she feels entitled to everything she asked for -- I thought it was a given that her lawyer instructed her to ask for everything she can, because she'll probably get less, so simply asking for what she thinks is fair will probably hurt her.

Assuming she feels entitlement over actions that are more probably mere following the prudent instruction of her lawyer is exactly the kind of DJing we've been trying to train out of EL.

Hey EL, I found something that's fun for stress relief and your son would probably love it too: Virtual Bubble Wrap: http://fun.from.******.pl/2003-11-24/bubblewrap.swf

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Erm, the ****** bit is the good o' H-E-double-hockey-sticks that got blotted out by the filter.

MOS


*shrugs*

I guess we'll agree to disagree. I don't think El really wanted what he wanted because he thought it was bad for his wife. At the worst, I think you could say he didn't realize that it would be bad or how it would be bad or maybe didn't even stop to consider THAT it could be bad for her. And, yes, I consider that "trying to save the marriage" because he was trying to fix the problems in the relationship that he had defined in a manner that seemed reasonable to him (regardless of how anyone else felt about it)

I also think it's fair to say that he understood that those weren't the only problems in the relationship though he might not have been able to clearly articulate all the problems nor did he have much success at identifying all of them.

None of us here have a clear picture of what might have been good for her, really. And, I think that if El did have that information he would have shared it with us either through his many renditions of conversations or through direct expression.


She also gave him a lot of stonewalling "I don't knows."


She had many opportunities to provide the information to someone who was not going to argue with her nor disregard the information (SH, the marriage counselor). I completely understand why she didn't want to engage in circular discussions with El. She had available to her a number of opportunties to provide the information to a neutral 3rd party who would not only relay the information to El without her direct involvement but provide him with guidance and accountability in the process.

She chose not to avail herself of those opportunities. They were offered to her time and again. And, if she didn't find SH to be a reasonable option, then she had available to her the time and resources to find one that was. She HAS the opportunity NOW to find resources to get her point across.

Now, maybe El isn't privy to her search or he's not being truthful about her investigating options but from the information that I have here (which might be one sided) it doesn't appear that she's willing to investigate any options to communicate with El other than "he should miraculously manage to understand my message when that has never happened before" which is an awfully lazy approach to problem solving, in my opinion.

She found one counselor who couldn't get through? Try another. The third didn't work? Try another. El finally found one who was able to coach him through real changes in his behavior? Why not try talking to *THAT* counselor to get your message across? That is my definition of due dilligence.

Perhaps all she wanted to do was escape but that is not a useful life strategy. She knew there were problems in the marriage. Retreating behind a wall of non-action could not possibly fix the problems that were there and I'm sure she's smart enough to have figured that out. Starting a relatinoship with another man was not going to fix the problems either. She didn't want to talk to El because his communication skills were so poor? Fine! That doesn't excuse her from not agreeing to talk to competent, licensed professionals. Chances are, their communication skills would be adequate.


She had room all along to find some neutral 3rd party to translate her message safely to El. She had room for more radical honesty.



I believe that providing a neutral 3rd party (professional counseling) is a providing a safe environment (unless you're suggesting the SH would abuse her.) Let's assume that SH wasn't safe for her -- she had the option of picking any other professional 3rd pary. I am not going to give credence to the idea that there was absolutely no safe place that she could have arranged to communicate her point. Nor, do I believe that is too onerous to fall under 'due dilligence.'

She clearly did not uphold her responsibilities in this area. If she was unsafe, she did not take any responsible steps to become safe. The steps she took were avoidance/denial and adultery.


My definition of due dilligence involves taking responsible actions to 1.) provide safety for yourself and any minor children and 2.) to provide resolution to the problem. That includes but is not limited to taking advantage of every available opportunity and option.

She failed on both. She did not do anything to realistically enforce boundaries against his behavior. Instead, she just withdrew and refused to engage him. That's not a boundary, that's petulant pouting. Boundaries involve information about the behavior and what your choice is. I don't remember her saying "I will discuss this with you when... (you calm down/sober up/etc.)"

"I will not talk to you." Is not a boundary, it's a stonewalling tantrum.

She also took no steps to resolve the issues. As I said, if she couldn't talk to him directly (and I'm not saying she should have) then she had myriad opportunities to find some neutral 3rd party to referee. She was aware of a professional counselor that was having luck (finally) with coaching El's behavior but she didn't choose to talk to him..

No, MOS, she did nothing even close to 'due dilligence.'


Due dilligence might have been throwing him in jail. But, she didn't. She just decided not to do anything about it except pout. She didn't leave. She didn't file for divorce. She didn't address it with his counselor. She didn't do anything about it at all except possibly be angry.


Yeah, I know. It's an emotional reaction. It's not consistent with my logical side <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> You know I'm a feeler. I pointed that out because it is, in fact, not consistent. But, yes, I do feel that.


Yes, that makes logical sense. I guess what I'm saying is that I understand her following the good advice of her lawyer. It's even what my objective side would tell her to do. But, there is a part of me that thinks less of her for doing it. (My logical side and emotional side do not always match up; I can admit that. I tend to make "my" decisions based on my emotional side. I tend to manage my "expectations" based on my logical side.)
Hopefully, that makes sense... er... or at least communicates that it might not make .. sense...


*grins* True! El, do as I say not as I do, ok?

Mys
(I really do try to give advice from my logical/practical side -- but sometimes the emotional side wants to be heard. Don't worry if you can't reconcile the two sides. I can't either. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />)