i would love the name of that website

My situation is different from most here because I actually married someone that I knew cheated on me. She ended up cheating on me again 12 years into our M, at which time we had two kids and a mortgage to deal with. I ended up staying, but it's not a situation I'm really enjoying, and a year and change after D-Day I'm still a shell of my former self.

If I could go back in time and give advice to my younger self about how to handle D-Day #1, it would be to either (1) walk away, or (2) do not re-engage in the relationship until she identifies and deals with the character flaws that led to her infidelity. And the latter is where we both really made our mistake. We really believed that our love for each other would conquer all. Unfortunately we never dealt with the character flaw, so when the opportunity came around again, the character flaw once again manifested itself and this time around it's even worse because it hit so close to home.

So, my advice to you would be, if you REALLY want things work work out with D, you need to really look at yourself, and identify what flaw in your character allowed you to behave that way, and deal with it. Either that, or walk away, because you will eventually end up making life miserable for both D and yourself.


BTW - I'm in the sad situation now where I know now that my FWW needs to identify and deal with this character flaw for our M to truly recover and be "affair-proof", but she's not yet had that realization; she thinks that things will just work out if I meet her ENs and she makes a decent effort at meeting mine. As long as she feels that way, I will never feel comfortable about our M, because I will never trust her to properly handle a situation that might lead to infidelity.

maninmotion, I think you gave me some good advice. I am trying to find and fix the flaw that lead me down the road I chose. That's what got me to this site. I would love it if you gave me more advice. At this point I'm a little stuck. I know he needs his space while he's working through things. I need advice on what I can do doing this time. I printed out a ton of the readings from this site and am starting to go through them. I know that's a big part in figuring out what the ****** is going on with me. What else can I do? I don't want to fall into the rut of working really hard at this and then slacking off because I think things have gotten comfortable again. Since you are and were in D's position, what are you looking for from her now? And what do you wish you would have made her work harder at before getting married? I'm trying to figure this out before I take the step into marriage. And if I don't marry D, I at least want the knowledge for whoever I end up with.

Thank you again for not attacking me. Especially since you were in the exact position D is in, I really appreciate the honest advice.

Have you talked with him yet about what he thinks he needs to see from you in order to forgive you?



I think that the key here is to concentrate on those things that will make the most difference to him, IF what you want is to continue this relationship with D. Only you can answer that, and that would require some serious soul-searching on your part. For example, are you absolutely sure that you want to do this because you want to spend the rest of your life with him?



If he's like me, he's probably having thoughts that he prefers not to share with you, because the end result is likely going to be love-busting behaviour from both of you. Or it could be that he's experiencing a lot of trouble trying to accept the continuation of a relationship with someone that he knows cheated on him. You need to show him that the cheating will NEVER happen again, and to do that, you need to answer the character flaw question: identify ***why*** you chose to lie and to cheat, instead of acting in a manner that was in the best interests of both of you.

Great post Shelpdepressed I could not agree more. I too would like the name of that website. I tried to pm you but it did not work, can you PM the website please. Thanks

Then you're ahead of most other WS', who instead of looking inward, want to place the blame for their behaviour on their M, the OP, "it just happened", etc. If you're being honest here, you're off to a good start IMO.



Here's the problem. I'd love to give you more detailed advice, or at least insights into what I'm looking for from my FWW. Unfortunately, she reads this forum every now and then, and I don't want her seeing that. She needs to do the "hard work" and identify those things for herself. In fact, THAT is one of the things I need to see from her - that "hard work", that "active" approach to resolving this issue. Her approach so far has been generally reactive, and I've been subjected in the past to her telling me that she only did things because I told/persuaded/forced her to. Now that I know this, I'm backing off from playing the MC in our M, either directly or indirectly <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />.



Ok, Ok, Ok - I'll offer a hint. Start by asking yourself *why* you chose to lie to D, *why* you chose to go visit your Ex, and *why* you chose to engage in SF with your Ex. Your answers should all start with "I", i.e. they should focus on you, how you felt and what was going through your mind at the time. Anything else (e.g. answers like "it just happened") is just blame-shifting, a way of absolving yourself of some or all of the responsibility for your actions. Be completely honest with yourself.



Frankly - basically what you're doing now <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />. Asking questions and getting involved as much as possible in the recovery *process", which includes identifying and dealing with the character flaws that led to infidelity. Finding time to read a few pages from "Not Just Friends" only when I'm in one of my down moods does not cut it <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />.

You're awesome!

I'm not sure couples therapy would be a good thing right now. He first has to really decide if he wants to make things work.

this is wrong...

you going in to couples therapy is direct concrete ACTION on your part that you are willing to look at this issue...
and make ammends and change...

whether he agrees to come or not a first is irrelevent...
it is YOUR action...

I haven't heard good reviews about couples counseling. The stats are that it isn't quite successful

THIS is silly excuse making... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I wouldn't stay one second with someone who refused to work on their issues....based on these reasons..

FIND a good counselor
use this site and call the Harleys...they are awesome...

find a good counsel through NEW life live ..they do premarital ALL the time...recomend it ALLL the time....

what does he say do that has you in tears in everyday...

you need to break your participation in the cycle you are currently locked in..
but
first you have to identify the cycle..

ARK

That is EXCELLENT advice.

I can't go into couples counseling without the other part of the couple agreeing. If he had decided to walk away from the relationship, there would be nothing to fix between us. No matter what I'm going to continue working on me. I'm not making an excuse not to go to counseling, I just feel that a few other things need to be in order before that step is taken. I completely agree with identifying and breaking the cycle, that's what I'm trying to do right now. There is just a level of understanding I need to get within myself about the situation before we go and do the couple thing. I'm not going to throw us into an environment like that until we both are 100% in this and ready to move forward.

He doesn't necessarily say huge things to make me upset. I'm obviously upset about the whole situation already. It really gets to me when he constantly brings it up. We might have a little argument about something completely off the issue and somehow it goes back to the cheating and if it wasn't for that, we wouldn't be where we were. I understand his hurt. I just don't understand the need to relate it to everything. Maybe I'm missing something. We are taking some time apart. We still talk all the time, but we aren't hanging out after work, on weekends, etc like we used to. Which is a good thing right now. It gets to me when he makes comments about how he only wants to do what he wants to do. He doesn't seem to have much consideration for the fact that I am hurt too. I'm not happy with what I did, but he seems to think that he's the only one affected. I guess it's hard to explain. I can't blame him for the need for space, but I think that we should be talking and working on things. He is more on the, let things be, route...and I'm on the, lets talk about this, route. I don't want to be selfish in this...because my actions were completely selfish already...but I can't imagine this going anywhere good if he's only worried about himself instead of us worrying together. Am I making sense?

Maninmotion, tell me what process you needed to go through. He isn't a huge talker and I don't want to keep bringing up the issue and dragging it on if he doesn't want to talk, so I just want to know what to expect and maybe some advice on how to deal.

I'm mostly upset because of the unknown. I don't know for sure that he won't decide that too much was lost and want things to end. But I can't expect him to know right now either. It's a crappy situation. I'm not one bit pleased with myself to bringing us here. It's completely ridiculous and avoidable and I feel like an [censored]. I should have known better. I did know better...but you know how that goes...

I do want to put it out there that I am pretty hurt by previous posts about me. Especially ones stating that I am immature and definitely not marriage material. I cheated before a marriage...people cheat during marriages. Is that any less wrong? If a person who cheats before marriage isn't marriage material, then isn't a person who cheats during a marriage also not marriage material? I didn't ruin a marriage here. I know I'm not ready for marriage YET. That's why I want to figure all this out before I take that step so that I don't have to deal with any of this later.

I also have trouble understanding why, after reading other posts, people were absolutely against me making this relationship work. Apparently marriages were torn apart from cheating, continual cheating, over long periods of time and the advice they are given to make those relationships work. But in my situation it was a single occurance and the only difference is that we're not married yet. I know marriage is a different level of relationship, but overall, isn't a relationship a relationship?

I'm trying to understand the reason I was attacked so much and told what a horrible person I am. I think that it's really a step in the right direction for me to be dealing with these issues now instead of putting them off because I'm not married yet.

I'm a really good person that made a big mistake. I haven't made excuses for myself or placed blame on anyone other than me. I was looking for advice from others with a some wisdom on the issue. And even if I am younger than the majority of people on this site, shouldn't you be helping me improve my life instead of pushing me down because I messed up?

I do know that several of you HAVE helped me, and I'm very thankful. Especially to those who have been cheated on, to be helping the cheater, that's a really huge thing. I'm very grateful. Please keep the advice coming. I need it. =)

brighteyes, let me give you an analogy that might help you understand.

First off you must understand that dating is like a job interview. It is a job interview for marriage. It is a TEST, not a committment like marriage.

Let's say I am a recruiter and some guy comes to interview for my job opening. During the interview, he lies to me, lies on his resume and cheats on the math test. Do you imagine anyone in their right mind would hire this man? Would anyone with a sane mind consider him "career material?" Of course not.

Should this man be given the same flexibility and accord as a long term employee who was caught lying? A long term employee is going to be given special consideration because there is ALREADY a committment and a mutual investment. We already KNOW he is career material, whereas the fella who lies and cheats on his interview has demonstrated he IS NOT.

The simple truth is that one who lies and cheats while dating is not marriage material AT THAT TIME. Nor is a DATER the same as a SPOUSE. And yes, there are some married people who are clearly NOT marriage material. That is because often someone married one who was NOT marriage material. But, two wrongs don't make a right.

I hope that clarifies the issue for you and helps you understand why most don't consider you marriage material. Sorry if you consider that an "attack" but it is the truth. An "attack" would be what you did when you called me a b!tch earlier in this thread for telling you something you didn't want to hear.

For him, right now, it IS everything. He looks at you, and he sees someone who hurt him as badly as possible. He is also questioning his decision to remain in a relationship with someone he knows has cheated on him. His sense of self-esteem has probably been damaged quite a bit.



He's not the only one affected, but he IS the only one that had no choice in what happened. See the difference?



I say give him his space, but continue to show that you are very sorry for what happened and you are very interested in continuing a relationship with him. Unfortunately, you can't make that decision for him - give him the space to make the decision on his own.



What worked for me: my FWW (GF at the time) continously expressed her remorse about what she'd done and that she really loved me. I hadn't stopped loving her either.. in fact I started loving her even more because she really started opening up to me and being honest with me - or so I thought. I wouldn't say that I was fooled by her approach to honesty, but in our first "recovery", we never really dealt with that character flaw - the one that made her think that doing something that she wanted to do but may damage our relationship would be Ok to do once I didn't know about it. She didn't think it was a problem, and I didn't know enough then to identify it as a problem. It just went dormant, waiting for the right time to emerge again.

BTW - we had that "talk" last night, about what I needed to see from her. It went as I should have expected, with both of us ending up very frustrated at the end. She really believes that she's doing everything that she can do to make this recovery work, and was very frustrated that I didn't feel the same way. I think we did manage to clear up a few issues though. We're going out to dinner tonight - hopefully tonight ends better than last night did <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />.

It is my belief that the act of infidelity is not what does the greatest damage to the Relationship. It is the lying / covering up afterward that does the greatest damage, To yourself and your betrayed BF.

With that said: Here are a few things that can help you and your BF.

1. You must be totally honest with your BF about everything.
2. You must answer every question that your BF asks truthfully and fully.
3. You must do everything in your power to prove to him that he is the one that you want to be with.
4. You must prove your love to him ... You must be patient, gentle, compassionate and understanding.
5. You must feel his pain.
6. You must fully understand the devastation that You caused him.
7. You must accept full responsibility for your actions.
8. You must stop all contact with OP and not try to protect them.
9. You must reassure him that it is OK to ask questions.
10. You must reassure him that he will not drive you away by doing the things that are necessary to heal.
11. You must recognize when he's struggling or experiencing a trigger and comfort him.
12. You must be able to tell him how sorry You are and show him.
13. You must re-enforce to him, that he is not responsible.
14. You must put your own feelings of guilt and shame aside and help him heal first.
15. You must reconnect emotionally, mentally, and physically with him and stay connected.
16. You must work on rebuilding trust. No secrets. No privacy.

Here is a list of things that he must do:

1. Give you the necessary time to prove your love and commitment to him.
2. Be open with his feelings.
3. Ask the questions that are important to him.
4. Don't be afraid that he will drive you away while you are trying to heal.
5. Stop blaming himself for your actions. He is in no way responsible for your choice to engage in an affair!
6. He must be able to let you connect with him. (this one takes time)
7. He must continue checking up on you in order to let him rebuild trust.

These are just a few of the things that I have thought of off the top of my head. With these things in place, then reconciliation can be successful. It is still a long journey, but with baby steps it can be achieved.


Stay Strong!

the flip side is that SOME BS have NO compassion for humans....

that they use the infidelity sometimes equal in and of that of a weapon...

BOTH sides...for this to work out

MUST
seek humilty....
and God's GRACE

bad choices
bad actions
bad behaviors of a WS....
never ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever

make

bad choices
bad actions
bad behaviors

acceptable or condonable by a BS

BS are STILL just as accountable for their actions
and
THEIR
treatment...

there is no free ride to turn around and villify and crucify a WS...for NO GOOD REASON...

you are either working towards recovery...in which two SOULS are truly working on restoring eachoter..
or you are working on the total destruction of another human being...

there is NO excuse....

if you can't handle it walk away....
BUT
if you choose to stay...as a BS you better broaden shoulders and pick up the burdon...IE CROSS....and wear it well......

ARK

I don't get it. Why all the drama?

You go out on a date with D. If he treats you like crap--picks a fight-- you end the date and go home. If he is still moody after awhile, wouldn't you find someone else to hang out with that is more fun?

What's the big deal? Am I missing something?

And why is who-you-sleep-with anyone's business? You are not married to either of these losers, right?

Melody: Obviously we don't see eye to eye on this issue. I would much rather make my mistakes now and learn that I have these issues to work on BEFORE marriage, rather than have them come out at a later date, possibly while in marriage. I didn't destroy a family, there are no children being torn between fighting parents. You're right, dating is a test drive. This is the time when mistakes are made and lessons are learned and you figure out what you want out of life and relationships. I'm not perfect. If I have found someone who can see me as the flawed person that I am and STILL love me and who sees my potential and see's that I'm working on making myself better...then what's wrong with that? We see something in each other that makes us want to work this out. And if it doesn't workout, we don't have a marriage that fell apart in the process. Some people feel forced to make things work after infidelity in a marriage...for the sake of the kids, because they have too much to lose, etc etc etc. D and I have nothing to lose, but we have everything to gain. And if we can build a solid, healthy relationship that we are happy with, why would anyone want to take that away? Maybe you don't necessarily agree and you think the odds are against us, but why not wish us well and hope for the best. A little positivity never hurt anyone. It might actually make you feel good.

ManinMotion: D and I have been talking and it has started to go in a really positive direction. It's like you said, I've been able to open up to him more than I did before and it's bringing us closer together. For some reason I was scared to completely open up to him. At the start of our relationship I was very open with him, but as I quickly mentioned in a previous email both of my parents were diagnosed with cancer one month apart and when that happened, I really shut down. I'm still trying to figure out what was going on in my head to think it was okay to do what I did. I know it wasn't okay. I just can't remember what rational I was using at the time to make myself think it was. I'm still trying to figure a lot out about the issue, so I can't comment too much because I don't want my head ripped off if I state something wrong and someone decides to attack it. But I do know that I had a real lack of positive relationship role models growing up. Oh yeah...hows the recovery going for you?

Walkingthefield: D has told me that it's not even the actual cheating that bothered him. It was the unknown. He suspected something, but it wasn't confirmed. That's what he said tore him up. I can completely understand that. Thank you for the list of things we need to do. I think they are great suggestions...some of them I already assumed needed to be done. They are a good guide and I'm definitely going to use them.

Ark: I do see that he is getting better with his actions towards me. I can't seem to get him to understand the point I am trying to get across to him, so can you suggest a way for me to explain to him better that he is accountable for his actions NOW (not then obviously) and his treatment towards me now.

Thank you all for your help. Keep bringing it please!

BE, I don't "think" the odds are against you, I KNOW they are against you. There is nothing "positive" about denying reality and basing one's life decisions on immature, unrealistic expectations and bad judgment. Bad decisions based on unrealistic expectations don't make people "feel good;" they make them feel bad. They ruin their lives.

It is like hiring the ditch digger for a brain surgeons job and thinking "positively" that he might step up to the plate. Positive thinking just won't compensate for his lack of training. Might make him "feel good" until he kills the first patient, but won't make him a brain surgeon. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

And of course I wish you the best, but I also wish HIM the best and hope he makes the right decision. Take care...

You can't leave it alone, can you?

You were cheated on twice weren't you? You keep picking men who apparently aren't "marriage material." It seems you are denying the reality of the character of the men you marry and marry them with immature, unrealistic expectations. You are marrying ditch diggers and hoping they are brain surgeons..then later realize they tricked you and are only ditch diggers. I'm still a student where maybe my occupation now is a ditch digger while putting myself through school, but I'm being educated and will soon become a brain surgeon. Would you rather marry an uneducated person who is unaware of their actions and holds no accountability for their mistakes or one who made mistakes in the past, used them to learn and brought a complete, healthy, amazing person to a marriage. People change, but only when they are aware of themselves enough to know what to do. I'm learning and in the process I make mistakes. I don't make the same mistakes twice. What about you?

Isn't the saying...fool me once, shame on them. Fool me twice, shame on me? Hmmm...

Well, then you should take a lesson from me and avoid marrying when you are not marriage material! Use me as a bad example to NOT emulate! Learn from the mistakes and experience of others... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />