Boundaries are about YOU.

They are not about putting limits on HIM.

They are about clearly defining what YOU will be a part of and what you will NOT be a part of.

If a "boundary" requires HIM to change his behaviour, it's not a boundary - it's an ultimatum or a demand. And those never work.

Boundaries are about YOU.

And yes, "hates being controlled" is right out of the textbook when describing someone who is Passive/Aggressive. That's why boundaries are even more important here, because boundaries are ONLY about you and NOT about him.

If you want to know more about P/A behavior and how to deal with it, first read the first link in my sig line and then go to page 53 on the very lengthy MB thread in the second link.
Mulan

Hi:

I am Jim and I am a FWS. My wife’s devastation day was 8/25/2006. I just wanted to chime in about boundaries. I don’t know what is going on in your household, but I distinctly remember telling my psychiatrist about my wife discovering my adultery as a result of going through my desk at work. She said she was looking for a pen and paper, which were in plain sight on top of my desk. Before I could finish the story, he said “She had every right to do that.” I agree with him. The rest of the story was that it was my opinion God blinded her eyes to what was on the top of my desk so she would find the book on sex addiction that I had in a desk drawer. You see, I wanted to get out of my addiction to cybersex and I am convinced that God knew the only way I would do so is if I was discovered. So, don’t think I am at all angry that she looked in my desk drawer because she did have the right to do so.

I’m sorry, I like to tell that story because it speaks of God’s grace to me, but the point is I don’t see how you have crossed any boundaries regarding your husband’s affair and your fear of him getting into an affair again while on the computer. If everything you said is true (and I believe you by the way), then it makes me sick to think of him trying to make you feel responsible for the problems in the marriage. Surely you do bear some responsibility for past rough spots in the marriage, but if you are trying to work things out, then it seems to me the problem is him, not you.

IMHO, you have every right to monitor his online activity and hold him accountable. You also have the right to bring the affair up if something is bothering you. I firmly believe that it is the WS/FWS responsibility to do everything he or she can to create an environment where YOU feel safe. There were some things my wife asked of me at first that made me angry because I didn’t see how they were a problem, but because they were a problem to my wife, I did what she asked. When my wife is triggered by something, I feel it’s my responsibility to hold her until she feels at least a little safer. I do that because there really is nothing I can say to make her feel better, except let her know I am still there. It’s what I think a responsible adult who wants to make amends should do.

I am sorry to be so long-winded, but it really makes me angry when a WS/FWS has the gall to act like the BS is crossing a boundary when the WS basically has forced the BS into having to do so much work just to be able to sleep at night.

I am no expert, but I have to agree with those far wiser than I that he seems to be hiding something. I may not threaten divorce, but if I was trying to hide something that I felt guilty about, I would probably be aggressive in telling my wife she was all wrong about her suspicions.

Hope this makes sense. Hold your ground and don’t ever let him tell you that you’re crossing boundaries when all you are doing is protecting you and your kids.

God bless.

P.S. I also agree that he should be the one to find someplace else to sleep, not you.

His posturing and demand making is more than likely because he feels you are getting in the way of his fun online. How sad it is that he is wasting his time on virtual strangers when he has a W and two lovely girls that need his love and attention.

I agree with the others, do not go anywhere. He just wants you out of his way so he can be free to chat all he wants. You have legal rights to stay in the home. It's absolutely awful that he acted the way he did in front of your DD's. My heart goes out to them. Do you have any family on his side that can help talk some sense into him? I'm not familiar with your story, but sometimes shedding light on their abhorent behaviour can snap them back to reality. He is way out of line!

Thank you everyone. I am scared this is going to be a really long night. He hasn't talked to me all day. So I know he is still really angry.

Respectful,
Sorry you are going through this too. It is rough.

Nottoday,
Consequences are very hard for him. I think he does feel punished by me. And that hurts because I have tried so hard to make sure that he is never punished for this. You hit the nail on the head, I do want him to prevent himself from making another stupid decision. I want boundaries so he is never in that position again.

jimm,
Thank you. It really helps to hear from a FWH. I wish mine would find God's grace. Something has just been missing in him, I suspect his whole life. I'm not sure he knows how to accept love. I wish he could find faith.

He may be hiding something, I am not sure. For a while I was convinced he is a sex addict, but our MC thinks that it is more of a compulsive cycle. It may be kicking in. That doesn't mean he will have an affair, but he may be conflicted and restless. And guilty. I hope that is all it is, previous guilt, not current.

familycomesfirst,
Yes, family first for me too. I wish he had family that could talk to him. I called his Grandmother to expose the affair when he renewed contact in March. And he has pretty much avoided his Grandmother since. My H cuts people out of his life completely when they disappoint him or he faces difficult situations. I am afraid I am next.


Thanks everyone. I am so lost today. I'm getting more upset about the online chat. I don't know why he needs it in his life. Something happened to him a year ago. First the affair, then a secret email friendship with a 2nd OW. Now this online chat. He started that about the time of NC with OW 2.

I don't know what is missing for him. But I am so sad too. I hate just sharing this side of him. He is the most amazing man I have ever met. He is funny, and sweet, and wonderful, and loves our children so much. That's the real Husband I want back.

WTR,

I would be glad to post a prayer for you in the prayer request forum if that will help you. I really pray everything is much better for you tonight.

I understand what you mean about sharing the bad side of your husband. My wife says the same, but we all have bad sides and sometimes we need to have the bad in our faces so we can do something about it. May both you and your husband find peace tonight.

-----------------------------------------------------------

Since I am about to unsubscribe myself, I will just write a prayer here and you can post it anywhere else you want. Thanks for the opportunity to talk with and pray for you.

Father,

I thank you for the mercy that you have given WTR and her husband to have come this far. I thank you for the love and strength that WTR has been given for her husband. It shows in her pain when he doesn't give her the love she has freely given him and in the love she shows for her husband. Father, make this night a magical night for both WTR and her husband. Let the evening be one of communication that is respectful and filled with love toward one another. So speak to WTR's husband that he finally comes to understand how deeply hurt WTR has been by all that has happened and how even the hint of allowing himself to get back into and EA or PA causes devastating pain to her. Cause him to understand just how much WTR loves him and let that realization knit their two hearts together so that he/they resolve to guard one another's hearts for eternity and never to cause pain to one another again. Bless WTR's beautiful daughters. Grant them a joyous and peaceful Christmas with both parents.

In Jesus Name I thank you for hearing me and for blessing this family.

Amen.

---------------------------------------------------------
Hope it was ok to do this.

WTR,
If you tell him how you feel, and that is all you do, then the mirror is put up to his face. He may try to do so but if all you are doing is telling him how you feel about specific behavior in the present, it would be difficult for him to accuse you of being controlling or uncaring or suspicious or unable to get over past bad behavior of his. What you are doing is telling him how his actions in the present affect you in the present. This is not about you two evaluating whether your feelings are reasonable. It is about how he will respond to a concern that you have voiced about specific behavior of his. Will he try to understand where you are coming from? Will he try to suggest alternatives that you would be comfortable with? OR -- will he throw a fit so that you don't say anything or decide that you are the problem?

If you simply tell him how you feel, the ball is in his court to respond. What will he do?

Don't muddy the waters by telling him what to do or what not to do. Then he can accuse you of being controlling. You cannot control him anyway, so you might as well face that fact. It's up to him to control his own behavior, to change his behavior out of consideration for your feelings.

Respectful

Jimm,
Thank you. The prayer is appreciated. I saw your post about unsubscribing, and am glad that you have done so for your wife's needs. Thanks for your help to me, and I wish you the best in your marriage.

Respectful,
I think what scares me the most is that I am holding the mirror up to him, and that he hates what he sees. That there is so much bottled up inside him.

I jus't don't know how to talk with him. I try to share feelings, which was really all I did in this situation. I was telling him I was uncomfortable. And he just blew. I guess that was his choice of how to react to my feelings.


Last night was so long. I feel hopeless. He is in complete withdrawl. I called him after work, just to find out if he wanted dinner. He answered the phone "yeah" instead of hello. He is basically ignoring my existance as much as he can. And didn't really play with the kids last night. He is determined to check out of this. Still the same this morning.

I am so scared. He was in this marriage completely last week. I even asked him a few weeks ago if he really wanted to be here. I was afraid that he felt forced to stay after D-Day because of the kids, and I didn't want that. He has been committed. Why is this happening?

Do I keep giving him space to cool off, and hope that helps? Or am I just letting him get further into withdrawl, when I should be at least pulling him back to conflict?

He said nothing at all to me last night about moving out. I don't know if that means he is changing his mind, or planning to throw my stuff in the yard Saturday morning.

What do I do?

If you decide to take him up on his offer to move out of state, make sure you get that in writing first or he will make your life expensive and miserable on that front. Right now he will say and do anything to get you out of the house easily. But then comes the other terrorist acts a bully will do - like deny to lawyers and judges that he EVER gave you permission to move. So get it in writing!

From Penalty Kill


FWW here. If that is upsetting to you, read no further.

In reading your post, I will say that NC/beginning of recovery might seem like a long time ago (March 2006), but in reality, that's just a short period in recovery time frame. So it's to be expected that there are bumps along the way, and this is a big bump.


If things were going well then they can again. I really believe that. But now there is work to be done. You're at a critical junction.


Ok, here's my opinion, as a FWW. Your H has absolutely no business chatting with women. He should stay out of any chats, period. He should be an open book, and the fact that he's resentful of you when you express some perfectly reasonable fears speaks volumes. You have every right to be uncomfortable with his behavior, and you shouldn't feel badly about stating your concerns in a reasonable manner (it sounds like you did that).

Sure he's guilty about the A. So am I. But why add suspicious activities to the mix? He's acting the wayward again. I'm so sorry.


Here's where I think you did the wrong thing. You were conciliatory when the situation didn't merit it. Instead, you should have stated your boundaries. You don't have to be angry with him, just firm. I like what BobPure says: "What would you do if you weren't afraid?"


Can you say "projection"? He doesn't trust you? Hah. He is saying that because he knows that he is untrustworthy - and rather than face that, he will project his feelings onto you. Don't take it.


IMO, he's concerned with his own behavior too, and looking to throw you off the scent.


I didn't quote the rest of your post, but you definitely should remain in your house. Don't even think of going anywhere.

Plan B? Probably not yet. You have hit a bump in the road, your H is getting tired of doing the hard work of recovery, doesn't want to face the consequences of his actions, and is showing the weakest side of his character at the moment. You are not stepping over his boundaries - his boundaries are unreasonable and unrealistic.

He is being a selfish baby IMO.

What about a counseling call w/Harleys? I know what *I* would do in your situation, but I'm not sure that's the right move. I am me, you are you. My H and I never had an issue like this. (we had other issues!) If I were you, I would want some expert opinion here. Stay firm and reasonable and don't lose your temper.

Take care.

WTR,
I've been at this a long time -- five years almost since exposure of the affair.

And I finally got sick of it.

I've concluded that marriage is a dance and you can only control your dance steps. What did you do -- you let him know you were uncomfortable about on-line chats. Go down the path of whether this is reasonable or not, and what you are doing is evaluating your feelings rather than accepting them and bringing them to him. Now, what did he do? "He just blew". Do I ever know what that means.

The natural response, the one that I had for years, was to avoid the "he just blew" response by keeping quiet and trying to accept his behavior because I couldn't control it anyway and trying to support whatever I could tolerate because I equated love with sacrifice.

My response was to stuff my own feelings as a way to avoid "he just blew."

If marriage is a dance and you only control your own dance steps, then the only thing you can do with a dance that is not what you want is to leave the dance. That's what I'm doing right now. I won't participate in conversations that are unpleasant. I am the sole judge of whether a conversation is unpleasant for me.

I had to get to the point where I was so sick of how the marriage is today that I would rather it end than continue. It's up to him to change his dance steps and all I can do is get away from him until and unless he does so.

That's where I am. That's why I'm responding to your thread. You aren't sending that message by what you are doing. You are trying to be conciliatory. Conciliatory about what? About whether your feeling should be considered?

Give him some space. Let him consider what he is doing. But don't accept disrespect and try to change your behavior so that he will respect you. His treatment of you has nothing to do with how you are behaving. It has to come from inside. You need to respect yourself enough to know that a wife should be treated with "loving kindness" (John Paul II's term in Love and Responsibility) or not at all.
A man who "just blew" is not treating you with "loving kindness."

Don't try to pull him back into conflict. Go into withdrawal yourself. If a man you dated treated you this way, what would you do? Sure, there are children involved and a marital commitment, but the commitment is one of care not one of tolerance for disrespect.

I odn't know the end of my story and cannot predict, of course, what will happen in yours. All I know is that I am not continuing to live like this. I am not chasing after this guy. If he wants a good marriage, he needs to come after me, let me know that he is sincere in wanting to build a life together that is good for both. If he wants to leave, I'm letting him leave. If he wants to blow, I'm hanging up the phone.

Respectful

Kayla,
You are so right about writing. And I have already realized that he would never sign the kids away. He loves them to much. He was just angry, and I realized that asking him to sign anything now would just justify in his mind that I want a divorce.

Penalty,
Thank you for the for the perspective of a FWS. I hope this is just a rough time that we can get through. I am losing hope.

I fear that he is addicted to secrecy. It just seems that all the big problems in our marriage have been related to that. It started with porn. I guess if I had no fear I would require a commintment to radical honesty, and leave if he could not agree. But I am afraid to do that.

If you are still reading and have time, could you give me more of your perspective with something? I have noticed from this that the last two times he walked out on me, it was triggered by the same comment, that I am uncomfortable with online chat because it triggers reminders that he had an affair, and slept with somebody else.

So am I standing in his way of chatting and he is angry about that, or is this guilt and anger at himself over the affair? A few months ago our MC made him look in the mirror, and he said he hates who he sees.

He doesn't talk to me about his feelings of the affair. If he says he is done in his mind, doesn't love her anymore, will this make guilt better or worse?

Respectful,
I just started reading your thread. I am going to post to you there. Thanks for posting to me. We are both in a hard situation right now. I can't imagine that you have dealt with this for 5 years since the affair.


Thank you everyone for posting to me. I usually keep an optimistic perspective, and I am struggling to do that right now.

Our MC told me a couple of months ago that some people don't need to be married. They are to self-centered, and can't make the commitments it requires.

That is just ringing in my head right now.

Excellent points, Respectful. As much as we all want to reconcile and recover our marriages, in the end it will take two parties equally participating. As BS's we all know that early in the recovery we carry the bulk of the load in this process and many would question why we put ourselves through further agony after the pain that we have already endured from the betrayal. I believe most of us start down this path because we believe that the person that committed their despictable acts and untolerable dishonesty was not the person we married. If they were, we are a poor judge of marital partners to begin with. So, partly by blaming ourselves we commit to refinding the person we married and with new boundaries, new perspectives, and new hope we set out to rebuild the marriage that was nearly destroyed by the adultery into something that is new, better, more fulfilling for both parties.

All christians are familiar with the term that Jesus will only give us a cross that we are able to carry. Problem for all of us is that as the BS, our self esteem is so shot after D-Day that we constantly question our own self worth constantly. Many times, when the weight of this cross that we carry seems to overwhelm us and we are ready to give up, we immediately blame ourselves that we are too weak to carry the cross that we have been given instead of considering whether we are carrying the right cross.

Prior to D-Day, I was "content" to live in a mostly loveless, sexless marriage that lacked true intimacy and was anything other than a partnership between two people working as one with the result being greater than the sum of the two. However, after D-Day, before I committed to rebuilding my marriage I decided that no matter what it took I would have a relationship where trust, honesty, respect, intimacy, honor and personal dignity were not sacrificed. Those are my boundaries. Anything that represented a threat to those boundaries I viewed as a threat to me personally. Obviously, I could not control whether my wife would respect those boundaries but I did control my willingness to not accept anything less than that. My hope after D-Day was that I would be able to rebuild my marriage, recover my personal dignity and enjoy a true fulfillment of the marital sacrament like it was intended by God. I committed to allowing my wife to be part of that marriage, if and only if she was willing to respect those boundaries. Otherwise, I had made a committment to myself that after becoming the person that I had become by surviving this whole travesty, I deserved no less than my expectations and would find that either with my wife or with someone else.

Our recovery started in earnest when my wife finally understood that the status quo was no longer acceptable to me. Once I was able to communicate my expectations and the boundaries that I had established to protect myself from further pain, she eventually committed to doing what it was going to take to resolve our issues and find that special relationship where both of our most important EN's are met most of the time.

I know this is tough for WTR to hear right now, but it is imperative that she stands firm on her ground. She can't force her WH to change his behavior but she has beared her cross and doesn't deserve to have weight added on to it. Her WH shows contempt and disrepect for her and their marriage. Without change from him, the marriage is not worth the costs of saving. She deserves to experience an intimacy in a marriage relationship, either with her current spouse or with someone else.

NT

nottoday,

You're right. I need to hear it. I am so sick that two people who love each other and their children can't work this out, that I am not thinking clearly. I guess I have my own fog.

So now I am paying for my poor choices. I stupidly walked in the room where his computer is because I wanted something from that closet. He is happily chatting away. I was curious how far he had gone to block me, and not only has he changed his passwords, he has blocked me from even seeing what game he is playing.

He has to be able to hear me crying while I type this. He will always be in an affair. With fantasy, with his own self-centeredness, I don't know. But I have never been, and will never be enough for him.

It hurts.

Don't talk like that. He will only be in an affair as long as you allow him to. You need to state and enforce your boundaries. If he does not adhere to them, plan B him. If you don't want to have to go through with a plan B, then divorce him. He will likely come crawling back realizing that when you set boundaries you mean them. Don't let him get away with what he is doing. If he goes along with the divorce, trust me, there are better guys out there and you will be happier in the long run. You shouldn't resign yourself to a lifetime of unhappiness. Fight for your happiness!

- Jim

Thanks Jim. I was pretty low when I wrote that post. This is so hard for me because he is a great guy, and there are many good things about our relationship. But his need for other women destroys me. And obviously, it destroys our relationship.

He did get off the computer last night because I was crying. And we talked some. I guess maybe we are back to conflict. He is so angry. At both me and himself.

He truly believes that I will never get over his affair. He said that when I talk to him about it, it just proves that to him. I really haven't been talking about it very much. I guess maybe I have a little more lately because I was trying to push for true recovery. I guess what I did was broke all the eggshells we had been walking on.

And he told me that he did not want to end his new friendship with this online woman, because it was his way of showing me that a relationship with a woman can be nothing, and that I don't need to police him. He said he was open and let me see that chat, and now he has paid for it.

I know my boundaries are supposed to me about me. What I really want is for him to learn how to protect our marriage. He doesn't know how. He can't see the slippery slope. No alarm bells go off for him. He is right that I can't police him forever, and I don't want to. I don't want to feel I need to.

I am trying so hard to make my decisions, control me. Yet I want to give him the opportunity to deal with his own issues, to grow and change, and work through some of what is hurting him.

Then I guess I would have to wonder what the last nine months have been. I may have to face the fact, that he is willing to live with who he is. And blame me, our marriage.

I feel very weak right now. I know I need to find strength. I told him that I have made huge mistakes in this recovery. I have to be strong enough to fix that.

With Christmas coming, I don't know if I am right now.

Baby steps??? (I guess 2x4's ok too if I need them)

WTR,

BS...that he doesn't know how to protect your marriage...why do you disrespect him so? You missed the point of him saying he wants to prove he can violate marital boundaries and stop being policed.

You aren't.

You weren't.

He chose to be transparent. His choice. You couldn't make him. He chose to respect healthy marital boundaries...and he now is choosing to attack your marriage.

Until you get your stuff straight in your own mind, then you will continue to flip flop, up and down, hope and despair...and only you can stop that cycle.

Find strength in you...hear what he says through a hopper on your head...it's his stuff...you can't make him protect stuff...you can bring reality. Reality is...he cannot be made, policed, forced or cajoled into doing anything...he chooses. Either get centered in truth and bring it...or continue to be sucked into his fog...

"I know you're choosing to attack our marriage by not protecting yourself and the marriage from other online or in person relationships with members of the opposite sex."

RESPECT his choices...they are his...they are not yours...and they are NOT about you...they remain about HIM...his perception...which he chooses...choose yours.

You don't fix people or relationships...we only fix ourselves...and we aren't broken, so you might want to lost the whole fix idea.

We heal, listen, know and share who we are...we are responsible for knowing our stuff and sharing it. Hold to that daily...and you will know you're already strong.

First, did you commit to yourself not to move out?

Did you make your goal to save your marriage?

If you did, then choosing to believe he is hopeless, a fantasy addict, is damaging to your own goal...and you're choosing to harm yourself, put yourself in despair through your own thoughts.

Focus on you, WTR. If your highest desire in this world is to live in truth...then know it, bring it and be dedicated to it.

Don't go into the past or the future...stay present. That's where truth lives.

You cannot give him opportunities to grow...he has all the same opportunities you do...not in your control. You cannot prohibit, inhibit or stop him from anything...you know this. Get to Al-Anon, WTR...learn about yourself...find support like many others did here...and see truth in action. For you and for your marriage.

Begin MC yourself and go. State truth all the time. "I know you are choosing to talk intimately with a woman outside our marriage. You are choosing to have another affair."

Not angry or accusing...pure knowledge. Truth stated. Not saying it to GET him to do or say anything...check your intent...stating your truth and the truth.

What are your progressive boundary enforcements? "I know I cannot control any of your choices, DH...I know you choose. I am choosing to work on myself, stay in my home and save my marriage." Own your own stuff.

He continues and you get those chat logs...and expose the affair...no apologies...state truth. Prepare for Plan B...and get the legal info for separating him from the house.

Listen and repeat..."I hear you believe I will not heal from your affair, is that correct?"

No arguing...it's his opinion. You argue it and you're substantiating it...don't.

Break all eggshells FOR YOU...use that feeling as a signal...you're afraid...of what? Saying the wrong thing, doing the wrong thing? Do you want to live manipulatively or in truth? Your choice.

Why DJ...did he say, "I'm getting off the computer because you're making me with your tears." I don't think so. He CHOSE to end his chat and talk to you. Please get set in reality and not fantasy...then both of you will be lost there.

He does not have a need for other women...another DJ which you choose to believe and causes you great pain...like stabbing yourself. He has a great need for only good emotions...from big doses of admiration, appreciation, intimate honesty and attention. You are as capable as anyone of that...it's HIS thing that he can't handle guilt, shame, envy, sadness, anger, pain, etc...that's about him...and people are distractions...he's a puppet human right now.

You be truly human and real...respect he is choosing all of this...whether he believes it or not...YOU matter. Your beliefs are equal to his...KNOW yours. See where you take on what is only his...and choose to respect you are separate and equal and LIVE from that.

You live through his eyes--his judgments, feelings, beliefs, perceptions and perspectives...>STOP THAT. SELF-ABUSE. You have your own truth...please get to know it, WTR. Find out why you choose to react instead of act...see if conflict avoidance has been your way of life, instead of living in truth...and why...where's the false payoff for you?

I lived in as much fantasy as my DH...we both went wayward. I lived as much through my DH's eyes and he did mine. We both tried to pluck out the others' eyes.

Breaking the enmeshment, injecting respect...was what paved the road to true acceptance and living in truth...and it goes both ways. There is nothing defective about you. Get John Bradshaw's Shame books...and read. Do for yourself...focus inward...because you are focused on where you have no control...and you're doubling your pain, feeling twice rejected...because you are rejecting YOURSELF. OUCH.

This time, stay here on MB...make your routine to read and now, ponder and share...to beat your own CA, your own fears and pain...you have that power, only you have that power. Healing takes time, reinforcement and support...and we give it to ourselves. We mourn our losses and celebrate our gains...and inbetween, we heal...

You can do this. I have no doubt. I believe in you.

LA

LA,

Thank you. Your insight and wisdom are amazing to me. I never saw it as a DJ to believe that he has a need for other women. After feeling rejection from porn, the affair, secret friendships, and now online chat, I thought I was accepting truth, that he would always need someone else. And yet, I find it so simple to accept what you have stated, that his need is for good emotions.

It is hard for me to detach from him. Especially when I see that he is in pain. When he told me last night that there is not a person in the world he trusts, I didn't hurt from the pain that he doesn't trust me. The pain came from seeing what is within him.

Our MC told me he may love me more if he sees that I am strong enough to love myself. I guess I am starting to lose that by losing myself in this mess. I have always been so strong, and sometimes I don't recoginze the weakness I see in myself right now. I think that is where the self abuse is taking it's toll on me.

I kept reading here, but stopped posting for a while because Husband hated it. He feels that this forum is no different from his online chat, because affairs could happen here too.

For now, my choice will be to post. I hope that someday I can post to help others. I haven't felt very strong or successful to do that yet. But I also look at how my friends have opened their marriages to me after what happened. How we are able to talk and support each other with our ups and downs. So I guess I do have something to offer.

I will focus on myself today. I have the Bradshaw books. Our MC suggested them for Husband, and I will start reading tonight. I will also ask Husband to spend family time, and time with me. If he chooses the computer, I will let that be his choice.

I do feel strong enough to leave this marriage, but I also feel strong enough to try to save it. It does leave me conflicted.

Thank you for your words of encouragement. Your posts are so amazing, and I believe each helps not only the person posted to, but many, many more.

I guess I need to join your fan club!

How are you doing WTC?

Thank you for asking.

We had our MC session last night. Things have calmed, and he no longer wants me to leave. But he still feels that this marriage ending is just a matter of time. He is "stuck." He said he can't really do anything to change and improve our marriage, but can't bring himself to leave it either. He does not love me the way a man should love a woman.

He says I will never get over the affair. Oddly enough, I think that he will never get over it. He says that if we had gone to MC 3 years ago, he would have done everything to save our marriage. But since the affair, things are diffferent and he just can't. That he "tested" me at near the beginning of the affair to see how I would respond. And that I failed.

He says I have rejected him, hurt him, and that he does not trust me at all. He can't forgive me. Honestly, at one point in the session I was thinking an outsider looking in would think that I was the one who had the affair.

I don't know if this can be saved. It almost seems like I have to plan A forever, to even give it a chance. We had a talk about the computer stuff last night. I really don't think he is getting into an emotional affair. But I think we still don't see eye to eye on any boundary issues. And I am struggling with that. For example, he told me he talked with a 60 year old woman on-line, whose marriage ended from an on-line affair. They talked about both of their affairs. Part of me thinks, ok, she is 60, he's not interested. He needs someone to talk to about this. Then I flip, and think that he is in a relationship conversation with someone who had an on-line affair. I know I have to set my boundaries, and then enforce them. I am honestly struggling to figure out what they are.

He is also convinced that this forum is no different than any other on-line interaction. And that I could just as easily fall into an affair here. My response to that was that I stopped posting for a while because I knew he didn't like it.

Today, I feel tired, and pretty angry. I am furious that he won't even try to fix this. That he says he doesn't love me that way. Well, he sure loved me that way when he proposed. And I wish he had told me at the time that he doesn't believe marriage should last a lifetime!

I am so angry that he just refuses to give this a real chance. I know that he has issues with love. He never felt it as a child. And when he says he doesn't love me the way he should, I don't believe he even knows what that means. I don't think he has any idea how a man should love his wife after 10 years. His idea of love is romantic love, and when it's gone, you move on.

I am really frustrated, and at a loss. One thing he did tell me last night, was that me doing what is best for me wil help fix this. So it sounds like I may have failed at this part of Plan A. But I am not sure. He wants to decide how me doing what is best for me is defined. I stay pretty busy with kids, house stuff, and mom activities. I am happy with that. It's not what he wants to see in me. So what I really wonder, is he trying to get me to take all focus off the family, because if he sees me moving on, it is easier for him to leave.

Any input? Am I still dealing with WS mentality, or do I have an emotionally unavailable man?

IMO - he seems to be looking for reasons to give up.

((WTR))