wow tigger!

before my H left, and in the months right after he left, he repeatly told me that when he looks in the mirror, all he sees is a monster

he said that he hates himself and he wishes he would just die

he said that he feels such guilt and shame....sadly he also said that when he looks at me, all he can see in my eyes is the pain he has put there and then he feels even more guilt and shame

he is still in the "fog" because even though he feels this way and knows he does, he still isn't making good choices for himself

i believe!

Call it what you will. If you don't like the word "fog" call it "insanity" or "being an alien" or "addicted" or "continuing to make a poor choice"... to me, it's semantics, and it's all about an initial CHOICE, which spirals (sp) into something ugly, immoral, unethical and hurtful to all concerned.

StartinOver, I have to ask, what do you want to hear? You seem intent on having people confirm for you that your WS is a horrible, unworthy person. Well, if that's what you really believe, then you have a much simpler task than most of us BS's. Just leave. There is no fog, your WS is just evil incarnate. It's simple. You get your D and maybe some IC and wait for that next M that I'm sure will be so great.

As for me, yeah, I'm still amazed that my WW could actually hurt me as deeply as she did, and worse, not recognize and apologize for the suffering she has put me through. So maybe I'm using the "fog" as a way to blind myself to how horrible my WW is. But then, I also know that I was asleep in this M, asleep, unskilled at meeting my WW's needs, and naive. I didn't force her into this horrible decision, but I certainly wasn't being the H she needed and deserved. Now I know I have 3 options, much as any BS does:

1) Just give up. Get a D. Devastate the kids and our financial situation, and assume that the problems that were in this M won't be the exact same problems in the next M.

2) Live in a dead M. This is the so called "corporate marriage". We stay together as roommates, "for the kids" (ha! like this is healthy for the kids). Both spouses will probably engage in affairs until you finally go back to option 1. In other words, this is not really an option, it's just a way of passing time until the D.

3) Forgive each other, agree to work harder than you do at anything else to make each other happy for the rest of your days. Hard to do this one if you are convinced that life with your WS isn't worth this kind of effort.

For me, the payoff for option 3 seems so enormous that it is worth the pain and hard work to get there. This is where the "fog" comes into play. Whatever you want to call it, your WS will almost certainly NOT be ready for option 3 for a while (certainly not after a full EA/PA like my WW had). LOGICALLY, it should be obvious that the best outcome for both WS, BS, and kids is for WS and BS to be HAPPILY married. The "fog", I think, simply is another way of saying that the WS can not see that option 3 is a GOOD thing, or a POSSIBLE thing. The "fog" also refers to their blindness to the devastation inherent in option 1.

In no way does "fog" mean that we should applaud or excuse the WS for not seeing options 1 and 3 clearly. But we as BS's must be aware of its existence, so we have the knowledge, strength, and patience to guide WS back to option 3, even when they can't see it for all that damned "fog".

NS

NotSleeping,

I was about to ask somewhat the same question that you just did. I am really wondering why there is such a big argument or disagreement regarding the existence of the Fog.

If you look at the definition of the Fog State -
Fog State Definition: Euphoric state of love built on fantasy, which totally blinds the Wayward Spouse and then allows total justification of every conscious and selfish act they commit. - I don't see anywhere that it says it is an excuse for a FWS's actions.

I define an "excuse" to be some fact or circumstance that allows a person to avoid blame or responsibility for their own actions and avoid any consequences as a result thereof.

It seems to me that another way to define a Fog state would be:

Euphoric state of love built on the Wayward Spouse's choice to exchange the reality of their present life for lies about an illicit relationship. In this state, the Wayward Spouse is totally blinded by their own sick emotional thinking and rationalizes that every conscious and selfish act they commit is justifiable.

It doesn't excuse what we did. It may explain why we act in a certain manner and it may offer hope to a BS who wishes to save their marriage, but it's not an excuse. THERE IS NO EXCUSE for adultery. It gives the BS some hope, I imagine, to believe/know that their WS is in such a sick and twisted state of mind that their words and actions cannot be related to anything a sane human being might say. (Hence, the BS should not accept any nasty, mean, vile or other bad thing said to them as having any reality). It should give the BS hope that once the WS is snapped back to reality that there is hope for the marriage, if the BS wants the marriage. But I can't see where a Fog state gives any WS a free ride to do anything that is harmful to another person, namely the BS.

We, who are FWSs, sinned verrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrry badly. If the whole premise of this discussion is simply to state that fact and say WE are responsible for our actions, I agree. If the point of those arguing against such a thing as the Fog is simply to say that the WS in their lives is a morally flawed and inherantly bad human being, then why would someone want to stay in a marriage or any other relationship with a person who is so fatally flawed as to be unworthy of their love and respect - assuming the WS does indeed want to make things right.

Personally, I agree we FWSs really did inestimable damage to the person we are supposed to love and honor forever, but I don't think we are so morally reprehensible that we should be thrown out as trash.

(Note to all of you. I don't in any way think anyone is saying that the FWS should be treated as trash or badly. I know that is not how you feel. Just trying to be descriptive.)

eav,

I'm sorry that your H is continuing on his self, and other's distructive path. I know that it took me a long time to see who I am today. Luckily, during that time, I was making the good choices, not bad ones, I just still had a hard time seeing who I was for the self hate I had for what I had done. We are 6+ years, closer to 7 now, into recovery. I still have twinges of frustration with myself, that I will probably have the rest of my life. Unfortunately, since I am human, I have a hard time with the "forgive and forget" as God can do for our lives. BUT, I do know that HE has forgiven me, and my H has forgiven me. Your H needs to come to that realization, that yes, he hurt you terribly, but he needs to also realize, if you have done so, that you have forgiven him. I hope I'm not jumping to conclusions here, and if I am, please forgive me if I'm wrong.

As for the discussion of "Fog, is it real or not", I think that SO goes through times where he needs to feel justified in his feelings for his xww. I see that many newer posters have assumed that he's still married to his xww, and the fact of the matter is that he's re-married, according to his other posts. IMHO, he needs to just forget about his xww, get on with his new life with his new W and stop trying to keep his past alive in this way. Again, JMHO.

I've lived both sides of the coin, and neither are pretty, no matter what light is shone on it. It's a tough situation to recover from, but if you choose to, and so does the ws, you can be VERY successful.

tigger

because i understand WHY the A happened and my part in the situation, i have forgiven my H. i realize how alone and unfullfilling his days were.

i hope that one day he will also forgive me for hurting him and not meeting his needs.

he choose the wrong way to solve the problem. If i had known, i would have worked hard to make our marraige work. I have always loved him so much. i just put work first...i was so very wrong

i hope that we both have learned from our mistakes. sadly, the OW has told me that my H has learned how to talk about his feelings now that he is with her. (that makes me want to puke) so i guess he also has learned what he should have done that would have solved the problem.

it hurts very much that he was able to talk to her about how he was feeling and how he wished our marraige could have been. she has the knowledge that i didn't and it seems that she is able to meet his needs and so far it appear they are happy and the A is going strong.

i'm glad that you were able to rebuild your marraige!(although i have to admit that on some days it gives me hope to see A's end and marriages restored and on other days it just makes me so sad that mine isn't one of them and doesn't seem to be headed there.....i can't figure out WHY?!)

I read the first post and it struck a chord with me. At the place I'm at right now, this is a sore subject. For me "the fog" is kind of like the movie "Arlington Road" i.e. we like to put a name on things. Once we can do that, we feel better. We can't deal with unexplained things.

My WW is unfortunately familiar with the term and that is why it bothers me so. I honestly do believe she was in an altered state of reality DURING the A but not when she began it. So it galls me now when she simply explains everything away as "I was in a fog". I want more explanation than that. Unfortunately I don't think she is currently in a position to tell me what I want so yes I despise the term "fog". It is a panacea. WW is currently using it to get her off the hook for everything. But what I do not like is that she uses her behavior during the A to gloss over her decision to BEGIN the A. She was not in a fog then. That was cold and calculating.

BS's also use the fog to their benefit. It is hard to examine self. When WW tells us we are inferior in some way, we can either take that at face value or blame it on the fog. Personally I took it at face value for a very long time. I was wrong to do so. OTOH, simply blaming it on the fog allows us to dismiss wrong attitudes or behaviors in ourselves that might genuinely need correction. We might discount Plan A as somewhat unnecessary because we preferentially choose to blame it all on the fog.

Bottom line is that, at the moment, my WW uses "the fog" as a Get Out of Jail Free card. I don't think she does that with evil intent - I think she just prefers not to have to do her own self-examination.

The sad piece of reality is that the fog is NOT a get out of jail card. It is a mental and emotional void not fulfilled by the A or anything. The person who stays in that void will grow more distant from reality. If allowed, that WS will suck the life out of all around them. That is why the Ws refuses to work on things they know are good for them. Some of them even admit it but feel or appear to feel helpless....instead preferring to wallow in the WS mud (aka: fog).

Putting a name to this state of mind or lack there of (aka: fog)is NOT the for WS benefit but for the BS and family. At least we know WE are not crazy. With that knowledge we get equipped to NOT allow ourselves t/b pulled into the fog and be entrapped into enabling the A.

Knowing there is the fog helps the BS know HOW to prepare. How to move forward. How to survive.

It did for me.

JMHO,
L.

Exactly the point of "Arlington Road". Except that in the movie (as in life), once we put a name on it, we accept it and we stop asking questions. That is one problem I have with the term. A new BS comes here asking all sorts of questions, gets told that their WS is just typical and in a fog and "Oh, it's normal then? I'm glad my WS is typical!". Once we accept the fog as the explanation for everything, we can shut down any self-examination. We don't necessarily all do that but we certainly now have the vehicle.

My WS uses "the fog" for her convenience. She has taken herself completely off the hook because she was not responsible for her actions. Who was then?

Piojitos,

I think that no matter how/why your WW's A began, and what "state" she deems herself in now/then, if she is truly repentant, that "fog" will eventually lift and she will begin to feel what I felt for a long time. That's the self-unforgiveness, self-loathing, self-disgust.....I could go on and on. Believe you me, she is not off the hook, if she truly loves you. She could be using that "fog" to keep from feeling what I discribed above and more. She knows what pain she's put you through and doesn't know if she can face it head on, so has blanketed herself in the "fog". Of course, that's just my view of things from what I have read of your story, which isn't all of it.

Same for you EAV. Of course, I don't know for certain how men deal with the issues of forgiveness and such. I do know that my H came clean shortly after our D-day 6 1/2 yrs ago. Our stories are SO long, and happened SO long ago, that it would take forever to do a total recap. My sig. line does explain a bit, but to add a small amount, we never really did deal with the first D-day or anything after that UNTIL my D-day.

So, the fog affects everyone in the A, and it's how it's chosen to be used that determines the course of action to dispell it. I'm happy to say that we have been fog free, unless it's predicted by the weather man on the news, for many years now. I haven't seen that evil alien looking back at me for a long time either. There is hope and I pray that the fog lifts for you both and your WS see the true light and come back to what they truly need. BUT, if that doesn't happen, know that you did what you had to do, and it wasn't YOUR fault.

i think about what my H told me before he left...he said that he couldn't ever be happy with me again knowing what he did because he knows how much he hurt me...and it would always be there

i guess as long as he doesn't have to see the heart he broke he can pretend i don't exsist....like using a big eraser on your mistake and starting over

if he could only see the reality of how much i've grown and how much i still love him....the understanding and the forgivness in my eyes instead of the pain

but again, he's chosen the wrongway to solve the problem

but in my heart i know....he destroyed me and gave up everything he owned and broke his father's heart

all for the "love" he had for the OW (yuck)

so if he really did love me.....he'd come back

no matter what

tigger,

I am accepting on faith that sooner or later WW will reach that point of self-examination. If I did not believe that she would never get there, I would be divorcing now. I don't think she has gotten there and I do think she hides behind the fog. At this point in my sitch, the fog is an excuse. It was helpful at first in my plight. I "explained" many behaviors by saying that they are beyond explanation. Okay. It had a name. That helped - then. But no longer. We are in a strange transition. I hope it doesn't last. Thanks for the post. I believe what you are saying. I can only hope that some day gemela gets there.

I buy it to a degree but not entirely. I think most affairs are fueled by resentment, entitlement, selfishness and lack of self respect/low self esteem. These people need someone to make them feel good (this is for a short period of time and then they will need another). They will become another person altogether with this new man/woman in their lives. They will sacrifice everything for the this feeling they get from sneaking around, violating their M vows, living like a teenager in heat and so on.

I don't believe everyone could have an affair like some suggest. I think mostly weak minded individuals who can convince and delude themselves of the reality happening around them are one's that have affairs, or at least long term affairs. I don't believe for one moment that most of these people are not calculating, thinking individuals with one need, how to satisfy this craving I have to feel the way I did with the OP the last time I saw them.

So, more than the fog, I buy the addiction motif. I think the addiction can be strong enough that the waywards try to revise reality (even though they really cannot) all around them. Again, a sign of weakness in terms of being able to cope with reality and deal with stress. They have a unrealistic view of reality.

My ex has been living with the OW for 20 months. Any 'fog' that was present will surely have blown away by now, yet the affair persists.

Some people are just selfish and entitled and care much more about their own desires than what is right or best for their families.

Alph.

I agree. And some people do such a thorough job of deceiving themselves about the "reasons" they had their affair that they never face the truth.

It seems to me that this is more of an issue with the paradigm chosen by the WS - one that is heavily supported by the design of our capitalist culture. We are so invested in what we can get out of life that we often fail to realize or accept that what's more important is who we become. Some people live their lives as productive members of society while others exist only to consume.

The consumerist values are quite convenient for the WS to adopt, and I think quite often people who didn't think this way before adopt this worldview once it supports their agenda.

like the harley's, i strongly believe that most affairs are an addiction

i think the "high" is the same as the "fog"

so....i imagine that my H is like a person addicted to cocain

the OW is the drug that gives him his "high" and she makes him feel so good about himself....she thinks he can do no wrong, she thinks he is is strong and handsome, she thinks he is the most wonderful person she has ever met, she understands why he is unhappy and reassures him that none of it is his fault, she adores him, together they talk about how it should be, how it could be...anything is possible

when he is with her he feels so "alive" so "excited about the possibilities that the future holds" all of his troubles and responsibilities seem to fade away......

just like drugs make the addict feel

then he "crashes from the high" when he has to face the real world....responsibilities, problems, the daily routine....and all of that is tied to his wife.....

SHE can't make him feel as good as he does with the OW...she can't give him his "fix"

and yet she expects him to be happy with her..."in love".....what the heck is wrong with her??? can't she see that with her he is miserable?? it CAN'T be the daily routines and responsibilities....because he knows that the OW makes him feel so good that even those things would be better with her.

but he knows it's wrong to be with her...he should do what's right....he will end things with the OW...he will work on his marraige....

but like the drug addict...every second she's on his mind....he's craving that good feeling that he gets when he's with her....he becomes angry because he can't have his fix...and YOU'RE the reason why he can't...
(craving!)

so he decides...just one hit....one phone call or e-mail...just enough to make him feel better and then he'll stop for good

and then...just one small amount and that feeling starts...and he wants more! he needs it! heck, he deserves it!

and the cycle continues...the resentment grows towards anyone who keeps him from his high (his wife), he becomes angry because he's so miserable, he realizes that he's GOT to get that feeling...whatever it takes....lying, sneaking to a quiet place where no one can see or hear what he is doing, stealing time from his family and his job so he can spend more and more time feeling good, spending money like crazy, enjoying every minute of his high to the fullest without thinking about the damage or the pain he's causing

and so what if people know and they think he's making a mistake...screwing up his life...they don't understand that he needs it...they can't imagine how bad his life was before and how good it is every minute that he's feeling high

and anyway, it's HIS life and what he chooses to do shouldn't matter to anyone else....so everyone should just mind thier own business and leave him alone...he's not hurting anyone

he doesn't need anyone else anyway...they are all just downers....and his WIFE? she's the worst! she makes him feel so bad about what he needs to feel good....well who needs her anyway

in fact, ALL he needs is this feeling ALL of the time and then everything in his life will be so wonderful

in fact....he's going to move in with the one person who does understand him...the person who gives him a free supply...he will be happy forever

.............
the A is a fantasy...so it is like a wonder drug

i'm hoping and praying that my H will soon reach rock bottom as his affair has to face reality and he will realize that addiction has destroyed his life....he's lost everything to get it

only then is there a chance that he will be ready for recovery

You tell the WS she/he is in the fog? You know what they generally do is twist it into an excuse.

At first I did tell my WS he was in the fog. I got better results telling him he stunk and was stupid for abandoning his family.

You should never be complacent in the fog. A BS can lose their way and in some cases the BS becomes the WS....which is an ugly sight in itself.

The purpose of giving it a descriptive name is to help the BS learn what to avoid and how to avoid it.

Often the WS twists things so much the BS is confused and even doubts their own sanity. How many times the BS comes aboard only to find out the WS had the BS convinced the BS was crazy! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> Hmmph..... it gets worse, there have been other cases where the BS actually takes the blame and punishment for the A. Talk about torture.

So is it ok to have a description? Yes....like all things one must use reason. Common sense here folks. Do you see it?

L.

my H wouldnever believe he was in any kind of fog....just "in love" (gross!)

More importantly ...it's not your job to edjumacate him.

Whether he believes he is in a fog or not is his own perception...his side of the fence.