That just gave me the uncanniest picture of Mel and Mimi in kilts, hacking and slashing away, savage grins on their faces. (Never mind that the Scots fought nekkid. It's my mental picture, and I can make them wear kilts iffen I want.)

Most important note of business first: I loudly second Mofo's suggestion to buy condoms. Tomorrow would not be too soon. Yeah, he probably won't make a move for a bit, but I'll lay 50 MB Bonus Bucks that when he comes onto you, you won't have enough warning to dash down to Wal Mart. Get them now and keep them with you all the time.

At any point it felt like the right thing to do, like in the middle of the ballet or something, you can slyly show him that they are in your purse and wink at him, then don't say another word about it.

Not quite yet, of course, as you are in a temporary retreat.

I think you should make your next focus hugging. When he keeps coming in when he picks up the boys, or even if he stands outside like a doofus, do enough hugging so he starts getting comfortable with it. Then it is a short step from hugging to little kisses. And it doesn't take very long for little neck kisses to become more interesting.

One of the things AJ particularly noticed about the OW, and it made him uncomfortable, was that she didn't fit to him like I did. Well, after a decade of snuggling, what did he expect? Remind him that nobody fits him like you do.

And while you're easing up the next few days, what nice relaxing thing are you going to do for you? Inexpensive but luxurious, like a bubble bath or sleeping in or a good book. Time for some "Plan Me". <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Athanasius, nothing about Confession is going to offend any Protestant advisors, though a brisk discussion might ensue. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Thanks Neak. In that case, I'm just going to outline and post the reasons for my suggestion that LS go to Confession, assuming she is a Catholic who has not been in a long time. Maybe it will be helpful somehow even if that's not true. I simply assume Catholic theology is true and ignore Protestant objections in the following, since my goal is whatever psychological and spiritual help it might give LS.

Dear LilSis,

By "go to Confession" I mean a general Confession:
1) find a good confessor.
2) get a "mirror of conscience", a pamphlet which lists everything a human being can possibly do wrong.
3) use the mirror to examine your whole life. Take notes.
4) confess to the priest.
5) burn your notes.
6) perform the penance he assigns you.

Spiritually and theologically speaking, Confession will accomplish three things: God will forgive your sins; He will give you additional grace to help you avoid them in the future; your relationship with Him will be restored. Those things happen regardless of whether you notice any change in your emotions. However, psychologically I think it would help you in many ways.

The emotional turmoil of A seems to involve an aspect of the BS blaming him/herself. You seem to feel remorse and guilt about certain things which you feel weakened your M: neglecting H to be Supermom, losing the fun flirtiness of the early years, etc. Obviously these are small compared to A itself, but there was probably some fault in your behaviour too. The priest can help clarify what was or wasn't wrong in what you feel bad about, and Jesus will forgive you for whatever was actually wrong. You won't have to waste any more time second-guessing your whole married life and can act more peacefully to save it now.

Right now, in Plan A, you're trying to convince WH that the change in you is real. Performing such a dramatic ceremony is itself an aid to change. Imagine you confess having neglected him. At the end of the Confession, you make a solemn vow before God to try to stop doing something you want (and need, tactically speaking) to stop doing anyway. In your mind and memory this ceremony will always be a barrier between the old LS who was sometimes neglectful and the improving LS.

Confessing to a priest is humiliating. Kneeling while doing it is humiliating. This helps fight our worst enemy, our pride. Plan A consists in you being sweet and kind to WH without any concessions to your pride. But you've pushed your pride aside in this crisis, in order to save your M. It isn't gone. You've been terribly hurt and unfairly humiliated. I'm afraid it will all come roaring out when you switch to Plan B. By humiliating yourself before God beforehand, which is not unfair, it will be easier to stay in control when the time comes to implement Plan B, showing whatever amount of anger you judge best.

When we realize how much Jesus has forgiven us, it's much easier to forgive those who have hurt us. Jesus delegated his power to forgive to the Church. In the Sacrament of Penance the Church continues His work. When performed properly we can be sure that He has forgiven us. It will remind you of Jesus' overwhelming love and forgiveness for you, and naturally you will find it easier to forgive WH's continuing painful behaviour.

Finally, Confession will remove whatever stands between you and Jesus, even things unrelated to this crisis. Our Lord will be able to help you more easily, because obstacles to His assistance from within you will have been removed. Personally, I usually feel an incredibly delicate joy right after Confession, because I feel so close to Him. Of course I start to ruin it immediately with my pride, greed, arrogance and general sinfulness!

These psychological benefits will strength you and make it easier for you to triumph in the complex spiritual and emotional warfare in which you are engaged. No one else had mentioned anything like this and it seemed like the only possibly helpful contribution I could make, <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" /> having never even been married!

God bless,
Athanasius

being an ex Catholic (32 years)... there is a great benefit to confession. You can confess to anyone... but really only need to cofess your sins to Him. It is God that you need forgiveness from. The cost of this forgiveness is paid by the Blood of Christ and requires nothing more from you than a repentant heart. Your WH would do very well to fall to his knees and ask God for his forgiveness. You would do well to hit your knees and pray for your WH to stop being so resistant to the Lord.
IMHO... you do not need some catalog of what one man feels is every sin that could be committed. Your heart and your Savior act as the still, small voice letting you know when you have wronged.
You are doing a splendid job in your Plan A.

I'm Catholic and I will say that after months of counselling with MC, I went to my priest. I was floored; he had my H pegged. I walked out more light-hearted than I'd been since D-day...getting stronger ever since. BTW divorce is NOT acceptable in Catholic church even for adultery.

That is not entirely correct... since it was my priest that eventually told me it was time to divorce. Only problem was... he wanted me to be a hypocrit and get an annulment when in my eyes I was truly married.

And to your first point... there are some wonderful priests out there that can be of comfort... just as there are some wonderful friends, counselors, etc.... Anyone that has seen a lot of infidelity can pretty much "peg" the behaviors of the infidels... it is just important that they follow that up with sound advice.... and frankly, manyy priests are ill equiped to counsel on marriage. Many do a fine job too. It is a matter of catching the right one at the right time.

Straight from the RCC...

There is a considerable difference between a spouse who has sincerely tried to be faithful to the sacrament of marriage and is unjustly abandoned, and one who through his own grave fault destroys a canonically valid marriage.”

My priest called unrepentant adultery... and continued adultery abandonment.

I think you, me, Eav and others with these sorts of WHs are a certain personality type..ultrasensitive, empathic, caring, understanding women who forsake themselves, taking care of others, at high risk for depression..yep, you know the deal...

The positive outcome of this trauma is that it FREES us and you never turn back..at least I haven't..and slowly but surely Eav is changing too..still on her own terms..in her own way..like you....

That's why I didn't get SPECIFIC with you..when I encouraged you to STRETCH..

You had me SPEECHLESS last night..I didn't have the words to EXCLAIM how WONDERFUL your strategy was..I still am at a lost for words...



PERFECT!! PERFECT!! PERFECT!!

What this says loud and clear even to an imbecile WH is that when you put your heart and mind to it..you can be SENSITIVE TO HIS WANTS AND NEEDS... and I particularly love THE ART OF SUGGESTION.. BUT YOU WILL That became my mantra..even in my Plan B letter.."I don't want you UNTIL you want me" (implying I know YOU WILL )



And lots of folks know that this is more my speed... I didn't want to lead you down this path..MEDC would come after me.. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Operation Soup's On has met this General's Approval for sure!!!

Onward!!!

LOL.... you know me too well Mimi. You are doing a great job with Lilsis. I don't agree that this stuff is right for everyone... but it seems to be working for her right now.
Have a nice day.

Well, you don't dare sleep and miss anything on this thread!

Now we have a spiritual adviser pitching in, and it is a MAN!!!!! Wonders never cease.

Welcome Athanasius.

LilSis:

Believers Question about the OWH might be in regards to breaking up the A. Contact with him at this point in time may not be a bad idea.

OWH may be interested in accelerating his D, and dumping OW. But if OW sees cracks in her A with your H, she will suddenly start slowing down the D with her H. Understand? You can get vibrations from that end of the R that may indicate how well your Plan A is going.

And remember, FIL is leaving for the southwest soon. And your H will get more time with OW, and will probably not have a problem with bringing OW in to FIL's house because the Hall Monitor is gone.

So, arrange more home time with kids and H at FIL house. Serious interference with A when you do that.

Another thought. You say that H is affectionate with oldest son, but not with Youngest? Offer to let him spend the evening with one son at a time. You have one and he has the other. Gives him a chance to deal with them one on one which can improve his relationship with youngest.

And BTW, About Operation SoupsOn:
Soldier! Your initiative is to be congratulated! A Plan A Medal with oak leaf cluster is to be awarded to you the next time the President is in the area to award it! Although the effects of this tactical battle may not be felt immediately, the disruption that is causes in a WH brain is quite pronounced. Lay low for a while. You next attack should occur soon.

Next battle: Invite FIL to dinner before he departs for the Southwest. Or bring dinner to FIL house the night before departure, and make sure FIL gets WH there!

LG

And for Nabohio, you are not getting the #2 team next week! Sorry Gators!

What an interesting turn the thread took overnight. I am a cradle Catholic, but there's lots of weird dynamics there. My dad was the Catholic one, my mom never went to Mass with us. WH is NOT Catholic; he was raised and schooled in a Calvinist denomination that (quite frankly) takes a dim view of "papists." So we sort of floated around, never joining a church because finding one that we both felt comfortable in was too difficult. (I've since found one that would have been PERFECT.)

We used to joke that WH sullied the gene pool by going outside the religious/ethnic group that prevails in this town to marry an Irish Catholic like me. When I first met one of WH's cousins, she said, "I thought you'd be tall and blonde!" In my dreams, girlie....but you see how pervasive it is. After the A began, I made a comment once about the hypocrisy of OW and her H, whose very strict denomination prohibited TV, computers, etc...all of which OW and her H had...but hid when the elders came over. WH told me I had no right to criticize because--being Irish Catholic, not Dutch Reformed--I was not a part of "the club." No kidding, he said it.

But Athanasuis...I haven't gone to confession since the day I took the sacrament in...what...1st grade? I don't even know how it's done anymore. Wouldn't *I* be the hypocrite if I suddenly decided to confess after 30 years? (It could take a while...)

I don't know. I'll give it some serious thought, though. I only know of one priest that I'd feel comfortable with (police dept chaplain). Let's face it, some are better than others. I want to re-read your post and process it.

Thank you for raising the issue. I wonder if your many travels included a stint at seminary...??
LS

LS

Your background sounds like mine. My roots are Catholic/Quaker. Dad is Catholic, mom Quaker. Sis and I were raised Catholic, went to Catholic schools, and Catholic college.

I DO suggest that you take this time to work on yourself spiritually.

Now, back to the story - you might want to take about a week long break from the war. Your seeds need some time to germinate. Plus it is all so exhausting........

LG:

Why do you think these OW want the OM to take over the care of their children? The OW in my case did the same thing, asking my H to pick up her daughter from school..YUCK!!!

I always wondered about that...

I was delayed in posting the last because the five cousins required chocolate chip pancakes, bacon, hot chocolate...then BIL/SIL arrived to depart for North Dakota, extended good-byes, etc.

Interesting update, though...I asked SIL if WH had a good interaction last night with the boys at the pool. Big eyeroll. No, she said...he was there for an hour? No...chimes in BIL solemnly, about a half hour. (He NEVER speaks ill of WH). SIL went on to say that WH never got into the pool with the kids, and his interactions with everyone were...subdued. He seemed in a bad mood, maybe depressed? She couldn't quite pinpoint it, and I didn't press it (kids all around).

So WH left the pool before they even went out for pizza, so that means the entire evening he was AWOL. (well, not really, right?) He did have to work today, so I doubt he was out late, but I dropped off "the package" at 8-ish and he wasn't there. DS11 said FIL left the pool at about 9. I wonder which of them discovered it first? FIL would just bring it into the house and leave it at that...he has incredible restraint (I would snoop, especially with the smell of perfume wafting from the bag).

Anyway...WOW! A stamp of approval for my actions. WHEW. Thanks, all...glad to know I didn't blow it. Absolutely, I will back off for a while and let it all play out a bit. Tuesday night I have a meeting...might be a good opportunity for Operation Lullaby. I like the idea of having condoms in my purse "for show" if nothing else. (good start, MEDC?)

Mimi, you are so sneaky! I wondered if you were tight-lipped for a reason. You WANTED me to figure this one out on my own, didn't you? What works for me will be different that what works for you (although if you do ever decide to break in somewhere, please refer to the Girlfriend's Guide back on page whatever...). You just planted the seed about stretching...OH YOU ARE GOOD. Glad I carried out your "orders" to your satisfaction. (big sigh of relief)

LG: more good, practical suggestions. Separate nights with each DS...great. Departure dinner for FIL...great. More time with DS's at ILs house...fits right in with suggestion #1.

I still have trouble with the OW STBX. I just don't trust him...not because he's creepy or anything; quite the opposite. I just think he is too...unsophisticated?? unperceptive?? emotionally out of tune??...to pick up on, or play off of, the subtle dynamics of what's going on. Even if he did pick up on anything, I don't have confidence that he would have a clue what to do...or that he wouldn't flat out tell OW that he's telling me x, y, z.

Does this make any sense? It's just a feeling. I suppose I could just send a friendly email hoping he had a good Christmas and that the New Year brings happiness...and throw in a question about the date that the D is final. It MUST be soon. He filed in mid-July and it takes a minimum of six months...but they were already working out settlement stuff in August, two months before WH even filed. I don't think STBX would confide anything more unless I asked specifically, for one because he knew how badly I reacted last time he gave details. Also, I have wondered if that last time, when he gave me painful details that were so upsetting, if he were in some unconscious way trying to get me to HATE WH. To get ME to file. Again, just a feeling. My insticts are usually pretty good. Something is just OFF with OW's STBX. Honestly, I'm a little fearful of going down that path. The pain potential is high, and if the ONLY payoff I get is OW's STBX's PERCEPTION of what's going on in A world...not worth it.

I think it works better for me to just pretend OW is not there/non-human, and focus on me and WH. I can only do what *I* can do to shake up the A. Do my best plan from my place of honesty, intregrity and love, and let the chips fall where they may.

Thoughts on this?

LS

I couldn't agree more, and I have--that is one of the greatest blessings that has come from this! I've grown tremendously through this experience, and I think I've touched on some of that before. The whole "hand of God" thing; having FAITH and HOPE that there is a plan for us. I'm reading the Bible for the first time, and have read many very good books on grace, forgiveness, and spiritual healing. My therapist is very spiritual (not religious), but has a very strong faith in God, so that comes up in our sessions as well.

Personally, I do not believe that I could do a Plan A if I didn't have faith and belief--in myself and in God. Plan Aing is like fasting...but faith and belief provide the sustinence needed to survive and push on.

Since my dad died, it has been VERY difficult for me to go to Mass. He and I always went together...it was sort of "our" thing after my three BigSis' all flew the coop when I was in high school. After he died, I would go to Mass and just weep, imagining him there beside me and missing him. So, since d-day, I've found a church that is not Catholic (it's actually of the denomination that WH was raised), but it has a very similar liturgy and is philosophically and intellectually suited to me. WH and I would have been very content there, if we had found it pre-A.

I know God is working in my life, just on HIS timeline. And here's my example: A couple of weeks before Christmas, I found this book on Michigan lighthouses that I decided to get as a gift for WH...just so I could have SOMETHING for him. That book (which was really beautifully done) triggered memories of all the things I had read on MB posts about being a lighthouse, so I came back on here and re-read some of those posts. Then, just a few days later, I was at church and went with SIL to sit in the nursing room while she fed my nephew. I looked up, and on the wall was a photo exhibit of Michigan lighthouses. Right there in church...that was my sign....I just KNOW God was telling me exactly what he wanted me to do. Couldn't have been more clear to me if He had used the proverbial 2x4.

That's why I do not believe that anything is serendipitous. There is a reason I found that particular book that was so perfect for WH, why I am here on MB, why I read those posts, why I saw those photos on the wall. It is not coincidence. And that's why I believe you are all angels...

LS

LilSis:

Somebody was getting lovebusted because he went to visit family!

I believe that RT was using the POWER to get WH to visit her that night, but H knew he needed to visit his BIL/SIL. So, he appeared as long as he could and then left. WH probably paid the price when he finally got there..... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

When he got back to FIL house later, guess what he finds on the counter? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

Who looks awesome now? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Serendipity, Oh My! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Continue your patrol, you are doing great! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

LG

LilSis,

A brief EN-analysis of your nightie reveals the subtle brilliance of your instincts. This is why ultimate victory will be yours.

The nightie and note together say, "I am eager to having thrilling sex whenever you wish." Big wins in terms of Admiration and SF. But consider the effect of the unconditional open invitation. Every time WH fantasizes about sex (i.e. dozens of times a day), he will think about you in the nightie when and where he chooses and get another little Admiration/SF boost. Also he will think about OW but no longer, as he used to, only as the Admiration/SF Crack he's addicted to. NOW SHE IS BE AN OBSTACLE TO LIVING OUT THE FANTASY WITH YOU!!! Resentment will begin to transfer from you to her, Admiration/SF thrills from her to you.

That nightie is now a deadly saboteur in the enemy camp. And there's NOTHING OW can do to get it out. And if OW finds it and makes a scene! Hee Hee! I'm gloating.

Athanasius

LilSis, something about condoms.

First, I'm very sorry to add to your worries but you seem to have illusions dangerous to your health. There is only one safe-ish policy in the World of Promiscuity: that plastic barrier must protect you during intercourse with anyone at all who is not absolutely faithful and bloodtested clean. WH is still in the World of Promiscuity and DOES NOT qualify. He does not requalify until he believably promises absolute fidelity and gets a bloodtest.

The fact that a two-year affair did not infect you is not safety. Permit me to illustrate the worst-case scenario. Imagine OW's STBXH had a few drinks last Friday at the office party, realized he had wasted his whole life on Ms. Ratturd, and banged Ambitious, Promiscous Young Secretary to feel better. APYS infects him with HIV. OW and STBXH sleep together once during their own emotional turmoil. OW infects WH. Then he finally takes you up on the offer and infects you. Ten years from now everyone is dead except the children.

Since you have made an unconditional offer you need condoms at hand ASAP. And you have to be firmly resolved to use them because when WH does come back you'll be so thrilled and relieved you won't be able to think straight.

Athanasius

More about condoms:

I adamantly oppose the suggestion to flash them as flirtation. This is tactic appropriate to single men but will be a huge disaster for LS. To a single man, flashing condoms says, "I'm eager to have sex if you would make a token effort to persuade me." Big points on Admiration, plus sex with condoms is mildly more SF than wacking off to Internet porn. It's very provocative and the main risk is to avoid looking like a complete floozy.

But WH is used to unprotected sex with LS. Condoms say, "I can no longer trust you with the complete gift of my body." Condom-sex is much less fun than unprotected sex, so big LOSSES on Admiration and SF. It would be a disaster at the moment. The condoms should stay hidden until the last possible moment, after WH has already decided to sleep with LS, when he's already horny and will agree to anything. And they have to be presented as a sorrowful necessity, one of the unpleasant consequences of his choices. They'll be a big fog-zapper.

Athanasius
(See how much I learned in seminary? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> )

General Staff has decreed a tactical lull in the fighting, so I'll bring up something you can do in the meantime to prepare for a battle which is still a long way off. You mentioned telling the kids "Mom has a plan." Use the lull to make sure they understand a bit more. The complete and total victory you aim at is a house where all four of you are forgiving and forgiven and united in love. Lay groundwork now so once you've regained WH you can help them forgive him, too. It might be harder for them than it is for you: sons need to respect their father, and they don't have the MB intellectual tools to understand what happened.

But don't reveal any tactics or even strategy, because they're a security risk. Assume anything you tell them, WH and even OW will hear.

Athanasius