pray for "grace and the peace of the Lord"

that's my fall-back prayer when my ego is pushing me too hard

Pep

What if your UNforgiveness of someone who has wronged you causes you grief and strife. Isn't forgiveness for ourselves more than it is our trangressors?

If we were to wait for some folks to repent and ask for our forgiveness, inspite of our diligent prayers, we may very well never receive it from them.

Jo

ForeverHers explains this best..also from that thread:

Okay Mimi, one comment regarding something GG said about forgiveness.

Jesus KNOWS the heart of all men. When the thief on the cross acknowledged his just punishment (consequences) for his crimes but that Jesus was the Messiah and "shouldn't" have been there next to him, he asked the Lord to remember him and surrendered to Jesus as his Lord and Savior. Jesus, who KNOWS what is in the heart of men, and who WILL tell some professing people at the final judgment day, "Away from me, I never knew you," told THIS thief that he would be in heaven with him. Jesus is no liar. Jesus is truth and he is the "final judge."

We have until death to repent. Yes, some will "get into" heaven by the "skin of their teeth" with no "good works" to base any reward beyond admittance to heaven upon. But they WILL be in heaven and not in the "hot soup" for eternity, just as the one thief is today.

I have written many things on forgiveness and love, with respect to our "mirroring" God in those areas. Most folks who have been around a while know where I stand, but if you have some specific questions I'd be happy to try to answer them for you. Or at least give you my opinion.

Forgiveness is a lot of things, but one thing it is not, it is NOT cheap. I'm talking about godly forgiveness "as God has forgiven us." That's not the cheap "hollywood" style of "oh, I forgive you" sort of forgiveness to make the forgiver feel good, perhaps even superior. It cost God his life to be able to make forgiveness attainable to us. Nothing cheap...a terrible price to pay....out of LOVE for unjust sinners so that we might become His and be able to reflect His love to a dieing world.

"Forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us" is a command that was taught to us by Jesus. But we have managed to misinterpret it and to rape it of it's power and meaning by applying it "willy nilly."

Jesus clarified the meaning and intent in two ways.

First, "Love thine enemies and do good to those who spitefully use you." Love and forgiveness are not the same thing. But our actions should be motivated as God's actions toward us are. God loves ALL of mankind, but He will not forgive all of mankind. He wants all of mankind to be His children, but only a small remnant of mankind will get there via the "narrow gate." So practice godly love for even the sinners who sin against you, so that perhaps they will take note and soften their hearts for God.

Second, "If your brother sins against you seventy times seven times and comes to you each time and says, "I repent," forgive him." This is how we are to forgive....as God forgives us.

Forgiveness (for Christians) is directed at fellow believers.

The pain and anguish of sin against us may still be there, but we are required to forgive. Jesus reinforced this with his parable of the unmerciful servant. It included a stern
warning to not withhold the same forgiveness that we received from God. That ties into the "Forgive us our trespasses...part of the Lord's Prayer. WE who have been forgiven much, need to remember that we are "no better" and need to forgive in turn those who have sinned against us. No recompense, no meriting, no nothing other than God forgave us when we did nothing to merit it, so "go and do the same."

"Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do." Perhaps directed at the Gentile Romans who crucified Jesus and did not know him as the Messiah, as the Jews should have. There was no "Forgiveness" when Jesus talked with the Pharisees, rather, there was a calling to accountability and calling "a spade a spade." John the Baptist didn't go around saying "repent!" just to exercise his lungs and vocal chords.

Yet here is the most heinous act that could be conceived and carried out...the brutal killing of the Lord of Lords and Kind of Kings. Carried out by Gentiles who were NOT the "chosen people." They DIDN'T know what they were doing, unlike the Pharisees. If the mere touching of the Ark of the Covenant would result in instant death, how much more wrathful would the Father potentially be toward those who laid hands on His SON and brutally killed him with about as much thought as we give to stepping on a bug?

A plea to God to not hold "this sin," be it Stephen or Paul or any of us, "against them" is NOT the same thing as "forgive them of all sins BECAUSE they have accepted Jesus as their Lord and Savior. It is LOVE for the sinner that motivates such statements, not the "Granting" of forgiveness regardless of repentance or lack of remorse and repentance. It is Abraham pleading with the Lord to spare wicked Sodom and Gomorrah if only for the sake of a few believers. Not to "Forgive" the sinning, but to show love and compassion.

The "Truth" in this is also revealed in Scripture in a little understood, but often quoted, phrase. "Love covers over a multitude of sins." Forgiveness of this sort is based in love, not repentance of sins based on the sinner's repentance. English language limitations notwithstanding, "forgiveness" needs to be defined when used and not assumed to mean the same thing in all cases. If not, then "forgive the entire world and all the perpetrators of murder, child molestation, rape, abuse, etc." simply because we "should" forgive everyone regardless of whether they want our forgiveness or not. Some people, believe it or not, LIKE brutality and sinning and have NO regard for, or belief in, God. Shall we meet them in heaven? What for, then, the existence of the "Lake of Fire?"

Forgiveness is not a "gift we give ourselves." It is an act of bold love and the passing on of a great gift that we ourselves received, though WE were without merit. We GIVE forgiveness and we RECEIVE forgiveness, but we don't forgive for our own gratification...we forgive in obedience to God's command.

So for me, Jo...

It is a LOVING response for me not to FORGIVE the OW until she truly REPENTS of her sins. It is LOVING for me to PRAY that she finds the LORD and accepts HIM as her SAVIOR....it is for HIM to FORGIVE her..that's what matters for her to enter into Heaven...

And I would.. as a Christian gladly forgive her, if she accepts Christ as her Savior and comes to me and asks for my forgiveness. She knows where she can find me...

My H himself though to this day describes her as "BAD"..thus, "EVIL"..as of his last known contact with her..

This is my personal belief. I don't judge negatively those who think otherwise.

As the one who had wronged you, has your Love for her (OW) truly removed all malice or negative feelings towards her? Or is it still perhaps a WIP?

Dear LilSis,

Just reconsidering two things I said earlier.

SuperMom's not really an enemy. The problem was just that she used to keep SexyFlirty LS in the dungeon. What you want is to get good at switching back and forth, so you can be SuperMom to your kids but flash on SexyFlirty LS to WH. That way, your kids have their SuperMom, your H has his SexyFlirty LS and SuperMom and SexyFlirty both get some time in the sun, i.e. you have a fuller emotional life. I think you did well today down at the pond.

One question: is it SuperMom who makes you think you have to plan every encounter with WH beforehand? Can you get her to relax? She doesn't have to deal with WH anymore. SexyFlirty LS does. SuperMom should learn to trust SexyFlirty LS to think of the right things spontaneously. She will; she's that kind of girl. She doesn't need to plan everything like SuperMom.

And second, I don't think anymore that you should go to Confession. Churchgoing's been very important to your relationships with both your father and WH, and reconciliation with the Church might upset Dutch Reformed WH seriously. If you start poking around with something that deep, who knows what might happen? Why open a new can of worms right now? Why switch horses in mid-stream? I'd say just let it lie until the war is over, two or three years from now. Holy Mother Church will still be here in five or fifty years if you decide you need Her and Her Sacraments. You're winning with the weapons you have right now: prayer, faith, the Bible, your strategy, your advisors, your mother wit.

Athanasius

I'll answer you, Jo..but first of all what is a "WIP"?

Silly me, sorry....

No worries Hon.

WIP = Work In Progress

Jo..this is what I said on that thread in Oct 05..WOW..seems like yesterday..I'm still at that place...


Christian Love is what I am speaking of...

Thank you. I both learned a great deal and was very moved while lurking. Just trying to offer something back.

Real Life is going to pull me out, which is a relief after being so obsessed with this for two whole days. Starting tomorrow Internet access becomes sporadic until the 9th, and after that I'll be back to my normal schedule with self-rationed Internet. I'm self-employed -- addiction to Discussion Forums could ruin me! Especially without a wife to straighten me out! But I will try to stop in and see what's happening and offer what help I can.

Plus, of course, prayer! Strength and Grace for LS, Protection and Repentance for WH, Repentance for OW!

Athanasius

I agree with Jo. One of my favorite books...that I've read over and over...maintains that forgiveness is a gift we give ourselves. The book is Forgive and Forget: Healing the Hurts we Don't Deserve, by Lewis Smedes.

He says forgiveness is the "simple" act of letting go of the hate and hurt and of seeing the person who wronged us as a flawed human being or wounded soul. Forgiveness is NOT forgetting, and--although it would be the ideal--forgiveness does NOT always mean reconciliation (not necessarily marital reconciliation here...just the repair of the relationship). He also asserts that we do not even need to tell those we forgive that we have forgiven them. It is something we do inside ourselves.

The stages we go through in forgiveness are:
**we hurt. Forgiveness is for a deep, abiding hurt, not just a trifle; something like a betrayal, a disloyalty, or brutality.
**we hate. Profound hatred is likened to a sickness that needs to be healed for US to be well and whole.
**we heal ourselves. Smedes says that forgiveness is love's antidote for hate. When we forgive, we perform "spiritual surgury" and remove the wrongful act from our present picture of the person who wronged us. "If you cannot free people from their wrongs and see them as the needy people they are, you enslave yourself to your own painful past, and by fastening yourself to the past, you let your hate become your future. You can reverse your future only by releasing other people from their pasts."
**we come together. Ideally, there is reconciliation between the wrong-doer and the wronged. However, "you must expect those who hut you to be honestly in touch with the reality of your falling-out, your pain, and their responsibility for them." This does not always happen.

My favorite chapter is on "Forgiving people who do not care." (the unrepentant) He calls repenting a four-storied mountain:
Perception: when you see your actions through the eyes of another.
Feeling: when you feel the pain you made someone else feel; you share the hurt, you feel guilt.
Confession: when you tell the person you hurt that you realize what you did was intolerable and that you share their pain; that you hurt, too...and that you want terribly to be forgiven.
Promise: you know and genuinely feel the wongness of what you did and passionate desire not to hurt again, so you make a promise or share a sincere intention not to hurt them again.

Smedes' case for forgiveness even when the wrong-doer is unrepentant is that we need to let others take responsibility for themselves. We cannot MAKE someone repent, so we need to forgive for our own sake, "if only so we do not drown in our own misery. Let the other guy take care of himself." By forgiving, we heal ourselves...not the other person.

I could go on. But it is a really easy read, short, and practical. I found it very comforting.

LS

I see your point, Sis.

I've been speaking from a scriptural point of view..which does not fit with Smedes beliefs...

As Christians, we pray for the salvation of others..not to meet our own SELFISH desires to be rid of pain...

Cheap forgiveness without expectation of repentance leaves her open to sin and sin against others...

I posted this on another thread a while back- this is my belief as to forgiveness. After all, we are just giving opinions and they are all worth the same, huh?

Quote:
"To whom am I accountable for my sin? I am accountable to God. Who is accountable to me for their sin? No one. Thank goodness. I do not want that responsibility to really have to know someone’s heart and to judge them. God is much wiser than me.

It is not my job to convict anyone of their sin, nor anyone to convict me of mine. That job belongs solely to the Holy Spirit. It is also not my job to change anyone’s beliefs. I believe that job belongs to the Holy Spirit as well. Therefore, this is not a post to try and change anyone’s beliefs. It is just a post to state my belief.

I agree on the passage where it states that if they repent you must forgive them. However, how do you know they repented? Only God knows their heart. They can tell you anything, and you have no way to know their heart. So, how can you only be commanded to forgive if they repent?

What about the passage in Mark 11:25-26? "But when you are praying, first forgive anyone you're holding a grudge against, so that your Father in heaven will forgive your sins too."

So, if I use the reasoning that they must repent for me to forgive them, then I don’t have to forgive them if they have not repented and asked for my forgiveness? So, am I then basing my forgiveness on the fact that they have not repented?

Col 3:12-14 says: "Therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, put on tender mercies, kindness, humility, meekness, longsuffering; bearing with one another, and forgiving one another, if anyone has a complaint against another; even as Christ forgave you, so you also must do. But above all these things put on love, which is the bond of perfection."

Luke 6: 37 - "Stop judging others and you will not be judged, stop criticizing others, or it will all come back on you. If you forgive others, you will be forgiven."

Mark 11: 25-26 - "But when you are praying, first forgive anyone you're holding a grudge against, so that your Father in heaven will forgive your sins too."

Ephesians 4:32 - "Instead, be kind to each other, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, just as God through Christ has forgiven you."

These scriptures do not say that you must forgive them and go right back to the relationship as it was prior to the offense. Forgiveness is not reconciliation or the restoration of the relationship. It is forgiveness. It is done in your heart and only you and God know your heart. The person you forgive never has to accept that gift of forgiveness just as none of us had to accept the gift of forgiveness He provided for us.

Because God has offered us forgiveness and we have accepted it, it is our responsibility to do as he has done and offer that same gift of forgiveness. Now, if they accept that gift and repent, then yes, reconciliation can occur.

Because we forgive someone that does not give them the power over us to continue in the way that is hurtful – that is why there can not be reconciliation until they do turn from their sin and it is obvious to the injured party. Then reconciliation is something that can happen if it is wanted by both parties. Just as Jesus died for forgiveness of our sin, we are not made a new creation with Him until we accept it and turn from our sin.

When we forgive someone what does that really do for them? Nothing. We can not offer them eternal life. We can not offer them salvation. In reality forgiveness is done because it keeps us, the wronged party, from building up resentment, anger, hate, etc.

This is not saying that we should ‘forgive’ and then ‘forget’ by acting like it never happened. No, we should be aware of the situation and guard against getting back into the same cycle, repeating actions that led to it, etc. Instead we should learn from it and grow from it.

Now, I am not saying this is easy or that I have even done it. However, it is something that I firmly believe is between me and God at the moment. Until I can forgive OW, I do not have a right fellowship with Him. Because I believe He has called me to forgive, I am in disobedience by not doing so.

Am I ready? Not yet. I have been praying about it. He is working on my heart. Thankfully, He has more patience than I do. Maybe this discussion is what I need to prod my heart into obedience.

I don’t think this has anything to do with making me ‘feel better’ or helping me get past a situation. I think it has everything to do with being obedient to the Word as I understand it and listening to the conviction of the Holy Spirit.

If you do not believe that He has called you to forgive, then you are not living in disobedience. Because I believe He has called me and convicted my heart of that matter, I am in disobedience by not doing so.

When I make that decision to forgive, it will not matter to anyone but to me and to God. It is our relationship that will be reconciled and restored. You see if I had no relationship with OW, how can it be reconciled and restored? If I don’t eventually forgive her then hate, anger, and resentment will continue to grow in my heart."

I would have to agree with Lilsis and Jo here. I do not see forgiveness as being predicated on the other persons repentance. I don't see that as a biblical model personally.

Many times Jesus when he healed someone also said "your sins are forgiven" Did they repent or ask for forgiveness? No. They asked to be healed.

The Bible also makes it clear that if we fail to forgive, neither will we be forgiven. Jesus illustrates this point very clearly.

I think many people confuse forgiveness with reconcilliation. Jesus offers forgiveness to all - whether they accept that forgiveness is up to them.

I freely admit that my forgiveness of the OM is a worl in progress. I ave not forgiven him but I sure want to. That will have nothing at all to do with him as he has been completely excised from our lives.

Sorry!!! Forgiving the OM for me will probably never happen and it's been nearly 20 years. He was just too blatant in how he set out to take my W away from our M. He was/is a predator to this day. If I could do something about him I still would even now. Not very Christlike I know, but I guess that will have to be my burden in the hereafter.

I think this is the key right here, Jesus offers forgiveness to ALL, but all do not choose to take it. That being said, repentance is God's standard for forgiveness, because without repentance there can be nothing *TO* forgive.

Forgiveness is a two-way street leading to restoration of fellowship. It requires someone who is willing to forgive and someone is wanting to be forgiven. If you are to forgive me, I must be repentant, otherwise there is no restoration.

That is God's standard, and we shouldn't imagine that our standard is higher than his. He objectively offers us forgiveness and the restoration of fellowship, but his forgiveness is not subjectively realized until we repent.

I was writing my previous post and missed all the stuff that came in between (again). For me, the book I used had much more bearing on my feelings about WH. For a long time, I could hardly stand to see him...now in our MB lingo, I know I was only seeing WH. NOW, I can see beyond to H. It's that spiritual surgury that allows me to cut away the W and keep the H. So reading, processing, and internalizing this book allowed me to define a way to have a relationship with this man...whether he is H (please, God?) or WH (have mercy, God).

I have love and compassion for my H, and I can forgive him for what he has done to me, regardless of whether he asks for it. That is me, just rising above it, like a balloon. The pain was too much to hold on to. I had to let some of it go. So I separated WH from H. Surgically removed them like conjoined twins. The act of A does not define him as a human being. If it did, why work toward recovery?

That said, I wasn't really reading this book in the context of RT. I have no love or compassion for her, not right now. Maybe in time, when she is no longer a threat to my family or providing my H with his crack. Maybe when I begin to see her as a pathetic, wounded woman. Maybe when my marriage is recovered and we are happier than we have ever been. Maybe then I will be able to rise above it, and let go. But those are a whole heap 'o maybes.

I really like mimi's concept of praying for OW's salvation as an alternative to forgiveness. That I can do now.

LS

I think it boils down to us being willing to forigve - offering that to HIM- not to them- even if they never know. It is that act of offering forgiveness that is what he calls us to.

Co-signed, and thank you Mimi. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Mel you are doing exactly what I said - confusing reconcilliation which requires repentance with forgiveness.