I think for me, I need to stay in Plan A. I need to be here for him, this may actually be the best chance. I hear she is not understanding and not someone that can be leaned on. And the fact that he is not sharing this pain with her (so he says). I think he needs to see that he can lean on me, at least for now. This may be the point that he sees her for what she is and me for what I am.

Good work! I'm sure that was a very hard decision. Plan A as long as possible. My only advise...do not talk about OW and do tell him you still don't want the D. Just be the best person you can. Support him and spend as much time with him and the kids as you can. Plant a seed to have him over as regularly as possible. That is sure to throw a wrench in affair land.
I hope things go really well for you tonight! No LBs. I will be thinking about you. Send an update tomorrow.

MB

An added advantage right now is that WH is going to be spending alot of time with DDs. They are spending the night at his house tomorrow night (OW will be out of town which I have verified and will do a drive by to make sure). Then I am going out of town on Friday not to return until Sunday, WH will have them then also. Although they will not be spending any time at WH/OW house. I have offered to have him stay at OUR house but he says that is just too difficult. I will offer it again tonight. His plan is to have DDs stay the night at MIL house and he will go back to his house to spend the night. If he can't/won't stay at our house, I wish he would at least spend the night at MIL with DDs...and maybe it will come to that. Maybe he won't want to let them go for a moment. He has said that is why he hasn't taken them to MIL on "his" time, he doesn't want to share them....he wants them all to himself when he has the small opportunity to see them.

Could really reinforce what he will be missing. With the added mystery of where I am.....he knows I am going out of town but doesn't know where or who with.....

I will tell him that I do not want D. And at the beginning of the custoday/visitation discussion point out what is ultimately best for DDs....our family happy.

Thank you for thinking of me. I will update ASAP in the morning.

foxnhound...

If your husband spends any time at your house while you are away...
I want you do a couple of small things...

print out some research on support groups...parents without partners...and some sites on the effects of divorce on children...

leave it somewhere he would find them...

clear your history and cookies...(weaver would be so proud of me giving any type of computer advice....) usually my seven year old does that for me....

you don't want him finding 'you" on marriage builders

also print out some stuff on vacation sites..either places you have gone together....or somewhere new you have talked about going ...

again just somewhere out where he can find them...

drag out some old bags from 'fun' stores..
bath and body...
etc...
leave them out as if you bought "new" things for this trip....

also throw some old pictures of family stuff out somewhere....of you all together not sappy ones..but old holidays...first birthdays....stuff you can't get back etc...

ARK^^

All good suggestions, ark. I will see what I can do to lay the "scene" <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Maybe a pretty bra and underwear that he has never seen on my bed? I changed rooms after he left so it is really my own and nothing that we shared, except for the furniture. I do have our wedding album on a shelf and a welcome sign that my sister had made for us that had both our names on it.

Our talk last night went pretty well. I got there first and got a table and ordered some hot chocolate. WH got there 10 minutes later (he had already told me earlier to not worry, it would take him a couple of minutes to get across town but he would be there) He took his jacket off and apologized for not dressing up for me. Since when is he worried about what he looks like to me? I told him that I didn't care what he was dressed in, it was the fact that he was there making the effort. He said he wanted to dress better because it was respectful to me. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> Baby steps, I guess. What that says to me is he woke up that morning, thinking about what he should wear to meet me that night.....while he was with her. hmmmmmm.......

It went essentially the same as the Saturday talk went, begin talking about DDs and spend a small amount of time on them and then it turned into us again. I think we have a pretty good interim plan worked out. I started that part of the conversation with asking what is best for DDs, in a perfect world, with none of our current bs. He looked me in the eyes and said "us, together". And he didn't immediately say "but that is never going to happen". I see that as a huge step, just the fact that he viewed it from their side and knew what the best for them was. I didn't dwell on it, just kind of did a drive-by. I really feel he has to come to this on his own, I cannot lead him. HE has to do it or it doesn't really mean anything. Just something he was railroaded into.

We talked for hours about our marriage and certain instances where we each were hurt and didn't go to the other. Just stayed stubborn and how those resentments built up. I was afraid to go into all that, I feel those things are him justifying his actions. I made sure to bring it back around that the effort to do something about those things was never there. He took the easy way out.

I did end up talking to him about OW treatment of her BH sons. He, like I expected, was a bit defensive and said don't you think that maybe OW BH says things like that because he is a man scorned? I said that I had considered that but OW BH has never said anything bad about her, he loves her. All I wanted to do was plant the seed..... now when OW says or does something re: DDs, maybe he will see any red flags.

....and now he has called me three times this morning and it is only 9:00.

He also admitted that he had trouble trusting me. Not because of what I had done in the past or present, but because of what he has done and what he thinks I may do for payback.

I did tell him that I would reconcile and believed we could have a better marriage and have a happy combined family. He didn't immediately toss it aside, but he didn't jump on it either. I told him through a fountain of tears that I could find a way to forgive and get through this. I wasn't completely there yet because the pain was still so great and he was still making the same choice, but that with work and communication and effort on both our parts I knew it could happen. We just had to chose to do that and then make it happen. He also had tears in his eyes and just kind of nodded at me, accepting what I said. Again, didn't jump on it but also didn't immediately shut me down.

But then it circled around again of how to integrate OW into DDs lives. We talked a bit about that, how it is so confusing to me to talk about things so separately and feel something in one part of the conversation and than go to something else that to me is related and to him is totally something separate. He says he keeps OW and I totally seperate. What he does with me and says to me is not part of "their" lives. It is seperate. And vice versa...she doesn't share with him what is going on between her BH and her. To me, everything is related and effects everything else. To him, it does not. He only takes one piece at a time.

I hope this makes sense to you all. I don't think I've conveyed it very clearly. I'm so tired and I'm not thinking clearly right now.

He wants to get together again. He is typing up the long term plan, I am typing up the interim plan and than we will meet to go over again. I told him we could just email it to each other, but he didn't want to do that. "I want to see your face and know what you are feeling, I can read you better in person". I don't know if I want to be "read" by him anymore. But it goes the other way, I want to see him too and get his reaction first-hand.

I think there was more but I can't find it in my head right now.

It doesn't help that I had dreams about him last night....all of us as a happy family...the knowledge of the A was still between us, but we had worked through it.

Another day down, another one to come......

Another thing he said was he was so confused by the fact that he knows he doesn't want to be married to me any more but doesn't understand why he still cares so much.

oh....I had written WH a couple of 10 pages letters at the very beginning of all of this. They were pretty desperate and pathetic but truly heartfelt. WH said last night that he kept those...and he reads and rereads them. I thought they would have been immediately thrown away, shredded, burned, whatever. But I guess not.

oh....I had written WH a couple of 10 page letters at the very beginning of all of this. They were pretty desperate and pathetic but truly heartfelt. WH said last night that he kept those...and he reads and rereads them. I thought they would have been immediately thrown away, shredded, burned, whatever. But I guess not.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />


Oh yeah...I'm leaving here to go back to OW and how are we going to go about getting the girls into my life?.....a little bit of sarcasm in my thoughts after all this back and forth stuff.

He flip flops so much in all of this. I wish he would just pick one...either flip or flop but not both!

Slowly finding my footing again. I do know in the end no matter what WH wants, my life is mine and I can only control me. (I'll keep saying it and maybe it will sink in)

foxnhound...

I think you should deny your husband a little of the access he is requesting...

there is strong urge and pull in active WS to create this to be the norm...
to NOT be the bad guy

don't play in to this too much...

agree to meet then cancel last minute with "some other engagement..."

let the MAN stew and sit for a while with his actions...

otherwise you are becoming the OW

cake-eater that he is soo desperately trying to be...


he is saying some very cruel and unrealistic things...but they come out so calm and sugar coated that they aren't impacting you like they should...

be very very very wary of your own betrayed spouse fog...
it is a key drive of a WS to insidiously make this all normal and natural....

and the more you are submersed in it the more "normal' the abnormal will become..

ARK

ark, I agree. I do feel like I'm becoming the OW. But I'm having a hard time figuring out what is the best step. I don't think it would be good for me to agree to meet and then cancel. I don't do that with anyone, out of respect for their own schedule. If I agree to do something then I do it. And I'm afraid that with all the distrust he says he has for me, that he would view that as me letting him down. (okay, I think I see what you mean with the BS fog!)

I really think he is trying to be a cake-eater. He said it himself that maybe he thinks that is what he is doing. But I also see them falling apart and OW may just shove him off the fence onto my side. But do I want him when he only came to me because OW no longer wanted him? This hasn't happened yet but I see it heading that way. Or do I let him continue to see me for who I am and her for who she is and allow him to make that decision on his own. If I start limiting access than how can he see that I have changed also. One of the biggest things that needs to change is both of our willingness to talk about uncomfortable things and not just sweep them under the rug or keep them in because we don't want to hurt the other person, at the cost of ourselves and our feelings for that other person. How can he see this major change if I don't meet with him and have that one-on-one interaction?

Please advise me on this, I understand the advantages of lessening contact so he has to deal with the reality but I don't know how to get him to see the changes in me from a distance.

The things he says are incredibly hurtful and are impacting me. But I'm trying really hard to deal with them as they come and put my initial instinct to react to it aside and only act in a beneficial way. But, you're right, it does make some of it "normal" when it is not.

I was initially going to say that I didn't react to him regarding some of the things he says because then he doeesn't want to deal with me at all. He feels this is the way it is going to be and we have to work together to make the best of a bad situation.....and then I thought, "that is exactly what BS fog is". Because he has decided to do this, everyone else has to adjust and accept and then work together. That is not right. But what do I do about it now?

Distance....again, I think distance is the key. I have to do some of this because of the impending divorce. But I don't have to meet him face-to-face. I could make it into a business transaction kind of....I've told him the possibility of reconciliation is there and I've eased his fear about seeing DDs. That's all right now, I'll give him space to think on his own now. OW will have to ease his guilt about the rest of it, if she can.

And he did say last night that he didn't want me to think badly of him or hate him and think he was a monster. H isn't, but WH is. But I don't know which one I am talking to sometimes....

We also discussed the fact the I won't be his friend. I can't accept just a piece of him...it's all or nothing with me. He then mentioned my email where I said that a friend wouldn't treat me this way....that is where H went away and WH returned although looking ashamed and said he didn't feel like he did this to that friend, that he did this to his spouse. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> I said that we are all rolled into one. Didn't really get anywhere on that part of the discussion other than to reiterate that I can't be his friend. When things are finalized, I'm done.

That's what makes some of this so confusing and difficult too. Everyone else has accepted and it has become normal. I am the only one in my life (other than DDs) that sees this as abnormal.

That is why I come here. I know it is not normal but when the environment around you looks like it is, it's hard to stay true to yourself and what you believe. I start doubting myself sometimes. You all keep me grounded and strong. I thank you.

I think you guys are meeting WAAAAAY too much for the SAME reason. Have your WH draw up plans to see his daughters NOW, without OW involved; one step at a time. If you are going to get a LEGAL separation agreement, then you can discuss more concretely how things will happen.

I see the both of you desperate to have it both ways, he wants to cake eat, and you are willing to take morsels, crumbs, just so you can 'read' him. Don't make excuses to do what is not healthy.

He will not respect that if you continue. He will USE you up that way. Don't allow it. I did that and it only made matters worse, his level of respect for me was nil by the time he returned home, as well as my own self-respect.

I'm not saying that you should see him, but limit that time some.

Also, your WH is keeping secrets from his OW, and is probably doing the same with you by 'separating' out the two relationships. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> He's snowing you, okay. He's WAYWARD; he is not your H, not as you know him; he may mean some of what he says, but be careful, don't take stock in ANYTHING he says right now. And that whole statement about not trusting you, well, that's his own doing, not for you to reconcile with a WS. Most of what he said was about him, not YOU or OW, but his own selfishness. Try to filter what isn't real; feelings are temporary, but commitment, love are choices and are not temp. He's doing neither.

Plan A does not mean that you ignore reality, watch out for those patches of fog that exist in your own mind. They will ALLOW you to make some bad decisions; just sync up your heart and mind on all IMPORTANT decisions. If you don't want you children in OW's life prior to D, then state that and stick to it like glue...

fox...just catching up on the last few pages of your thread...



...that is why there is a timeframe for PLAN A...and if WS wants to continue to cake-eat.....BS needs to move on to PLAN B....

...make it clear every chance you get, without going into a major discussion, that this is not what you want, that his choices are very hurtful to you and his family...that if he is prepared to recommitt to M and family, by learning the needed skills you can make it a better M, but that it is not your intention to remain 'friends' and tolerate the situation once the nuts and bolts re children has been hammered out....

...otherwise...you will be contributing to his cake-eating....by not allow WS to 'live' the consequences of his choices: not seeing you, having no discussions with you, not being able to count on you, not having an intact family, etc.

...but don't be surprised if you will need to go DARK, PLAN B, for WS to get a real sense of the consequences of his actions/choices.

Just as a reality check.....it has been 2 yrs from D-day for me...and 1 1\2 yrs I am into PLAN B (since about when WS moved out)....and WS is just now starting to take me seriously....that I will not be any kind of relationship with him, friendly co-parenting or other, as long as A continues... WS always thought that with time..I would come 'around'....after 2 yrs...some of the WS fog is wearing thin.....he's introducing OW to friends and family... and the more he does that....the more the 'loss' of his family is evident... and the 'grapevine' says...WS is hurting... because like all WS.....he wanted to cake-eat..... wanted OW and wanted to keep me in his life.....having to raise 2 boys together thought would be a guarantee... NOT so.....I discovered MB board....

...and PLAN B is a life-saver for me.... it is sending the exact message I want to send to WS.... I will not be part of a triangle... if you want me to be part of your life, N/C with OW and recommittment to me and family is necessary.....

Fox.... patience will be needed... in my case... 2 yrs so far... and WS is just starting to feel the consequences of his choices.... before that....laland and selfishness didn't allow him to see it..... it's a process... to get into fogland and to come out of it....

That's why....please take care of yourself....it's a long road...either way....

I don't suggest any R talk with a WS....it will be a waste of time and on top of it...very confusing.... a WS changes 'tune' as needed, and BS goes crazy trying to make sense of it...I did!

Use the bla bla bla bla filter.... anything other than what concerns financial or children arrangements should be heard as bla bla bla bla bla...because as long as A is on..... a WS will only attempt, in any way he can, to get BS on board with his thinking..... which is exactly what you call it: BS fog!

have you read orchids post on babbling back..

you need a crash course..

he says...

he didn't want me to think badly of him
you say back

well I certainly don't feel good about your painful actions

he babbles
or hate him

you babble back..

oh no dear that would take too much of my energy to waste on hating you...


he says
and think he was a monster

you say
oh no I don't think you are monster I think you are someone very lost from the truth and decency and Gods light


DO NOT console conjole or coddle his nonsense...

I would have busted out laughing when he tried to say the OW husband was a scorned man....
AS IF!!!!!!!!!!!

I would have babbled back...

yes dear you are responsible for his pain and upset do you feel no regret for hurting an innocent man!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

part of seeing your positive changes is NOT seeing you and having access

let him stew
let him wonder where and what you are doing....

the thing I find so insidiously creul about affairs is the lack of knowledge to make informed life decisions for the BS...
as the WS and OP know of EVERY move of the spouse while they move under secrecy and cover.....

evil it is..

let him FEEL it...
not hear from your lips
not see it in your face
not hear in your spoken pain..

let him EXPERIENCE it
FEEL it
LIVE it


it is of his creation...
he needs to taste the bitter medicine that he feeds others to serve his selfish acts...

ARK

....geesh....ark^^....you're getting pretty good at 'reverse babble'... Orchid would be proud of you!

It's the only thing I regret not doing before going into PLAN B...because WS certainly made enough 'silly' comments... I could have had a field day with it....

so....fox...do take advantage of doing it while you can ...in fact...Orchid would suggest practicing in front of the mirror... as in 'practice makes perfect'!

Yes, yes, and more yes. You all have such valid points.



Yes, I am desperate to hear those things from him and am looking for any crumb he will give me. And I don't like it. It has been so long since he has talked to me at all and I have had a hard time reaching the "why" of everything. But I also know what he says is justification. It does not explain why he is unwilling right now to do something about it. It's the same thing "I just don't have those feelings for you and I don't think they will come back".

I am backing off and taking a firm stand. I got as much as I'm ever going to get with these discussions and it is just rehashing everything over and over again. I am making a commitment to myself to shut down any further R talk without him first saying he is willing to work on the M. Nothing else matters, the whys, the hows, the whos, etc mean nothing without a commitment to do something about it.

Yes, reverse babble. I hadn't hardly been talking to him so I didn't read up on it. Now I will. The comment about OW H and WH responsbility for that was perfect. Although I don't think WH thinks he has responsibility...OW made that choice and WH wasn't involved in it. blah blah blah

I come away from these discussions absolutely used up, worn out, and exhausted. Not just right afterwards but DAYS afterward. My mind starts working overtime again and analyzes everthing and tries to work out my next move, etc. I have to stop that. It isn't good for me and it isn't good for DDs.

Thank you all for chiming in!

WH just left...he came to my office to pick up DDs bags as they are staying the night with him tonight. (OW out of town---trusting but verifying). The problem is, he showed up in OW jeep. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

DDs don't seem to mind. DD13 actually loves the jeep and wants one for herself. It is just hurtful to me. I know for a fact that both of WH trucks broke down, but he could have borrowed one of the shop trucks from work. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

Just my own frustrations, I guess. DDs are going to be staying overnight at OW/WH house tonight (for the first time)...what does it matter if they rode in her jeep? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

I'm so sorry that you are angry and hurting; part of the reason I entered Plan B was that I was losing my mind over the pain I was allowing into my life through WH's actions. I'm sure that the children's first ON at OW's home is not helping you much either. There is a lot to deal with there.

The fact that you KNOW so much about your WH right now is probably not helping. I found it very difficult to detach from my WH until Plan B, because I was always so desperate INSIDE, no matter what I conveyed OUTSIDE myself. I think you may need to consider plan B after you get the visitation ironed out, BUT, make a plan first, make sure you have goals. You will experience your own withdrawal, and the yearning for contact comes on a little strong at first, but your head will clear up, and you will be able to think more clearly.

As long as you are in Plan A, do not show this anger, resentment, sadness to your WH, come here to vent that and get support, so that when/if you enter Plan B, his remaining thoughts of you will be good ones. Hang on....this is gonna be a bumpy ride.

it does matter if they ride in her jeep - because it is a slow movement towards getting to know her. "Remember when Daddy told you he has a new friend? This is her jeep"
it sucks. big time.

I am not saying that you can stop him from using her jeep to pick up the girls - there is very little you can do about it anyway. I am just saying that it is ok for you to be upset - you should be!

You need to get mad sometimes. It helps you to quit looking at this whole situation as being somehow normal.

In fact - look at your last line



see what I mean? You all ready had yourself convinced that it was no big deal.
And I can just imagine what her BH would have felt, if he could see your WH and girls riding in the jeep that he helped to purchase for his wife. (Now - don't go calling him up and telling him!)

you see - this could actually be good timing for you. you were allowing yourself to slowly slide back into the mode of "I don't want to do anything, or say anything, that might upset him. I want to continue to take his little crumbs of attention, until OW finally dumps him, and then I will sweep in and comfort him"

It is so hard to find that fine line between being a door mat, and being the light house. Especially when he has been giving you some pretty big signals that all is not well with his A. But you need to remember that you are a valuable woman. You are worthy to be loved, and adored, and treated well. You do not need to accept scraps from anyone. Your self esteem took a huge hit when he left. it takes a long time to work that back up. But you need to get your self respect back.

It is good to fight for your M. To be available on that day when your H finally wakes up and realizes he doesn't want to lose the best thing that ever happened to him - you. But you do not want to give up yourself in the process. You do no want to turn into the type of wife who agrees with everything her H says just to keep him from leaving. You do not want him to lose all respect for you. you never want to hear him say "you better do what I say or I will just leave again" If you have to give up yourself for this R, then the price is too high.

that is why I say you need to decide what you want. Who you are. What is important to you. And then when he says something like "how are we going to slowly make OW a part of the girls lives" You can say "I am here to talk about how to build a better M with you, so that our girls do not have to bring another woman into their lives"

I am going to bring up the plan B subject once again - hopefully to get some dialog from some of the others here. I am no plan B expert - by far. But I keep hearing an alarm go off in my mind when you say that you are waiting until after the D to start plan B - and then you say after the D you will no longer have a relatiosnhip with him at all.

what would be the purpose of doing a plan B after the D? Are you trying to reconcile your M afterwards, and perhaps get re-married? Or are you thinking that it would plan B for the rest of your lives because he divorced you?
Don't you see a benefit in doing plan B before a D goes through, so that he knows exactly what to expect after the D? So he has one last chance to say "wait a minute! I don;t want this! I don't want to lose my W". If you wait until after the D is final - then it is too late for him to change his mind...

I know that you are scared - and cautious. you do not want to upset him - you want to keep things cool in case he wants to come back. But meanwhile, as you are calmly allowing him to continue his bad behavior, you are coming ever closer to a D.

I guess what it comes down to is this - if you Plan to do a plan B after the D is final, what do you hope to accomplish with it?

Just something more to think about it...