+++started a new thread so I could change subject line+++

It's been a while since I've posted but I lurk often. I wanted to give you all a quick update on my situation and tell you again how much I have appreciated the support that I get here. Just being able to read about everyone else and how they are dealing with their problems helps me a great deal.

I am doing much better than I was even a month ago. I like the changes I have made and am gaining confidence in myself daily. I always considered myself a strong and independent woman, but this A really threw me. The last few days have been somewhat difficult but I have a great deal of support and my family really made sure to take care of me this year. In a family of 5 kids, it's not often that one of you gets so much darn attention.

About a week ago, WH called me at work (which I've asked him not to do) and wanted to know when he could have DDs around Christmas. I asked him what he wanted to do and that I was willing to work with him on a schedule. He told me to make plans for whatever I wanted and he would fit in wherever he could (REALLY unlike him to offer that). He said he was the one that screwed all of this up and he knew he was the one who was going to have to be flexible and adjust to what we needed. Is he getting it? I don't know....maybe just words again with no follow through. We'll see what his actions are. We worked it out where he could come on Christmas eve morning and open presents at my house and then take DDs to his sister's house to open more presents there with their cousins. DDs had a GREAT time....they don't see these cousins often because WH and SIL do not have a very good relationship. DDs haven't seen these cousins since WH moved out. I did see SIL in the store the other day and she said hi but was very short and unfriendly. Then she saw DDs with me and was VERY friendly to them. Anyway, back to the telephone conversation about Christmas plans, a couple of times through the conversation WH said he "had made his bed and knew he would have to lie in it now". My sister and her two kids are staying with me for two weeks and WH was even willing to come to the house with them there. I decided that would be too awkward for DDs so I asked my sister to go to our mom's while WH was there. This in itself was pretty shocking, first that he was willing to come to my house at all (he has been adamant that he will not spend time with DDs there and seems pretty uncomfortable when he has come to pick them up - only stands in the doorway to wait for them), and second that he was ok with my sister and her kids being there. While discussing this part of the plans, he again said that he had made his bed and would have to deal with all that has brought on. Is H making an appearance?

WH came to the house Christmas Eve morning to open presents with DDs. He was pretty chatty, telling me stories about work, friends, and his family. He was wearing a new sweater (very preppy, which is not his style and new tennis shoes that were not his style either) I was pleasant but didn't ask many questions and didn't offer any stories of my own. I was pretty emotional and close to tears most of the time but I don't think he knew. Until they left, and then I couldn't help but let a few tears out. Then I sucked it up and waited until they were completely gone to cry. Christmas was better and less emotional. All of my siblings and my mother came to my house and we were busy all day. Then my sister, DD13, and I sang karoake until 1:30a! It was a blast, even though I don't have a voice this morning!

OW update: OW H has talked to OW about a legal separation and come to a verbal agreement. After that is filed, neither one can file for divorce for six months. According to OW H, she has not even spoken to a lawyer yet. He has taken her off all of his business accounts (he is self employed), personal accounts, and their DS7's bank account. Right after Christmas he will have her sign the agreement and file it.

OW does not seem very committed to my WH. She seems to be enjoying riding the fence, her H being kind to her and my WH doing whatever he does for her. I drive by their house often as it is on my way to pick up DDs after school. Often WH is not there and OW is. When he talks to DDs he says he is working late or at a buddy's house helping him out (excuses to me during the whole A also, is he telling OW the same thing? ). You can see right through their picture window, especially since it gets dark so early and she has the lights on. It feels like a physical kick every time I go by there and she happens to be walking in front of the window. But it's like a car accident, I can't help but look even if I don't want to.

OW and WH never even got a Christmas tree this year. And DS7 lives there! Pretty typical of WH though. In our phone conversation about Christmas scheduling, I had made a comment about him having to do his own shopping (which I had always done) and he said "well, you know I've never been big on holidays and this one I'm even worse" What happened to being so in love? Soul mates, etc? OW went to her sister's house as they do every year, WH was not welcome (Thanksgiving did not go well when OW took WH to sisters). So where was WH? Hmmmm.... Actually, I know what he was doing for part of the day....talking on the phone to my brother who was at MY house. Getting his "family fix" that way, I guess. What must that have felt like? To hear all the laughter and talking going on in the background and not be included?

A couple of weeks ago at DD12's basketball game, WH asked me if I would get a copy of our last 2 years tax returns to him. I said I would look and see if I could find them. --I know exactly where they are (I actually had them in my truck with me as I needed them for my lawyer). He asked again a few days later and I told him I hadn't had time to look for them. Then he asked me again a week later and I pretty much laid it out to him that I would not be helping him in any way to make the D easier for him to do. There are other places he could get the information he needed. There was a long pause and he said he understood. Then another long pause.......and he asked.....where can I get the information. I just kind of laughed and made comment about still getting information from me when I didn't want to help him out. Then I told him to talk to his HR director and they could get his W2's. I just can't help it! It is not in my nature to withhold things I know that would help him out! I wish I could but I don't like to be unfriendly especially when he is being nice. But I imagine he is only being nice to get what he wants from me and to be "friends". I am confused sometimes about what is the appropriate way to react to him. Being my normal helpful self vs enabling the affair and destruction of my marriage. Anyway, I don't imagine he even has to have them because they were turned in to my lawyer so the court will have a record of them.

I believe the lovebusting between OW and WH has begun or will begin shortly. WH asked to have DDs over for dinner one night (the first time they have even been to his house since he moved out). I asked if "Mike's wife" was going to be there. He said no and proceeded to tell me what her plans were for that night! I cut him off and told him I didn't need her itinerary, just knowledge that she would not be there for dinner with DDs. They still have not met her and I'm working that angle as long as I can. I called OW H to find out OW plans for that night. Their DS7 had a Christmas play that would get over about 7:30. She asked her H if she could go to his house to wait for it to begin, he didn't make it easy on her and asked why she didn't just go back to her house. She made some lame excuse that she didn't want to drive all the way home and then come back for the play. They were less than a mile from her house, but OW H was pushing her because he knew my DDs were at WH/OW house. She got irritated with him and then he decided to let it go and let her stay at his house until the play started. He was not going to be there as he already had plans. When their DS7 play got over, OW called WH and asked if she could come home yet. He said DDs were still there but would be leaving soon. She waited about 10 minutes and then called him back. WH said DDs were still there but they could leave if she wanted them to. She must have said yes, because he brought them home. DDs heard all of this conversation between the two of them. What must they think of her? What must they think of WH for basically letting her kick them out? I followed OW home to make sure that DDs and OW did not cross paths. I was having dinner at the place she stopped to call WH and wait to go home. All by chance since I didn't know she would be pulling into that particular parking lot to wait until she could go home. hehehehehe Perfect opportunity to follow her and make sure she stayed away from DDs and their was no "accidental" meeting. Makes me wonder what WH thinks of OW. If I was her, I would have gone shopping or something to give WH as much time with DDs as he could have since he has not spent any time with them since the end of November. Are those cracks I see in their "relationship"? And does it really matter anymore?

I feel pretty strongly that D is going to have to happen. Even if WH changes his mind, I may finish it. I like who I have become and have been able to see how H treated me in the marriage that was not always good for me. He was always pretty inconsiderate and selfish. Which reminds me, DD13 had made a gift at school for WH and gave it to him while they were opening their presents with him. He didn't even open it. I know it hurt DD13's feelings but she didn't say anything. This pretty typical of H also. He doesn't like to open gifts in front of anyone. But she isn't just "anyone".

That's my update for now. There is more but will have to wait for another day. I hope everyone had happy holidays. Now we don't have to do it for another year, maybe it won't hurt quite so much then. It was easier than I thought it was going to be but still hard sometimes too. DDs had a great time and seemed to handle everything as well as could be expected.

Thank you all again for your support, opinions, and suggestions, it is greatly appreciated.

Sometimes I just sit and think "I don't know how to do this". Then I come here and know that I can do it, others have, and I am not alone.

Oh, yeah. When I talked to OW H, I voiced some concern on whether or not WH and OW may stage an "accidental" meeting with my DDs. He said that he doubted she was looking to meet them at all. She is not friendly with kids or motherly in anyway. Even with her own son. OW H has kids from a previous relationship and OW never once let them stay the night. She told her H that "they had rooms at their mother's house and that is where they can stay". Real nice isn't she? Makes me wonder why he allowed that to happen, but I have my own worries without analyzing someone else's relationship!

Thank you for responding. I feel like I am doing well, most days anyway.

I am basically in Plan A still. WH is still living with OW and her DS7. I want to go to Plan B but do not have visitation issues straightened out. I do not want to push this as it will push OW into DDs lives more. By staying in limbo, I am protecting my DDs from contact with OW. If I can hold off long enough, maybe she won't be an issue for them. I would really like to go to Plan B as it seems much safer for me. Every time I see or hear WH, it hurts again. The final date for D is January 31, 2007. I will go immediately into Plan B as custody will be determined by then. I have lost so much respect for WH and really don't see him making ANY effort to recover the M once the A is over.

There have been a few things between OW and WH that I have found out that are kind of interesting. Things I KNOW would bother WH if I had done them.

I have a story about his dog that is kind of funny....have to update on that later. Gotta work.

Hi again Fox, <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Since Plan B is right around the corner (late-Jan awaiting final visitation/D), how do you feel about your Plan A?

Do you feel semi-confident you've laid the ground work where your husband can find his way home to a safe loving place once the affair ends?

Also, do you have your Plan B letter crafted and ready to go?

Jo

Hi, Jo

I feel very confident about my Plan A up until today. I bought HN/HN in late June before I knew of the A. I REALLY did a GREAT Plan A until beginning of August when I found out he was seeing someone. Then I absolutely fell apart. I have to admit I was pretty pathetic, crying constantly, continually asking to talk and figure things out between us. I went on ADs the day after D-day but they took a while to take affect. WH moved out in late August and I had more difficulty doing a decent Plan A but did the best I could considering the circumstances and the limited opportunity I had to see him. I was ALWAYS looking good, smelling good, and had a happy attitude.

WH paid "CS" for September and October and has given me nothing since, and has not paid any of the household bills. I was holding on pretty good for a while but this month didn't have enough money to cover everything. I had to call the bank and discuss options regarding my truck payment for this month. They agreed to tack December and January's payments onto the end of the loan. Since WH is still on the loan, he would have to sign the modification papers. I didn't think this would be a problem and told the loan officer that I would call WH and have him call them to set up a time to sign the papers. I called WH (which I HATE to do...I don't call him for ANYTHING) and he said he would have to talk to his lawyer. Just the tone and the attitude ticked me off! I said that was fine but he better "check with his lawyer" PDQ as it had to be done by the end of the month so we didn't incur any late charges and it wouldn't go on OUR credit reports. He was just a jerk about it.....he hasn't paid one dime towards that truck or his own insurance on his truck since August. Here I am again trying to balance everything and get things taken care of and he's off doing whatever the heck he wants to.

Then he had the guts to ask if he could have DDs for an overnight stay in two weeks. He's lucky I'm not using DDs against him....that was a really horrible time to ask. But all I did was ask if "Mike's wife" was going to be there. He said no she wasn't and I said that was fine they could stay with him.

I called the loan officer back (who knows the situation, she worked with OW and WH mother when each of them worked at the bank at different times) and told her what he said. She kind of went off a little bit about how stupid he would be for not doing the modification so I offered her WH numbers. She is calling him. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> She is someone who says what she thinks. She told me she was going to tell him "how this cow cracks". Whatever the heck that means!

After I had hung up with WH the first time, I thought about things for a minute (should have thought longer) and then called him back. He didn't answer so I left a message on his voicemail at work. Basically told him what a stupid A$$ he was and how frgn stupid he would be for not signing the modified loan papers and that it was to his advantage as well as mine. He was acting like I was out to screw him financially (certainly not the OTHER way!). Then I said "fight me, I dare you" Then I told him to have a nice f'n day.

I'm sick too so my voice is all cracky and I was using a pretty mean tone. I don't think he has ever heard that tone before and I have NEVER sworn at him or called him names before either. I don't think that is the way you should treat someone you love.

Can you tell that money really stresses me out!? It especailly bugs me because he bought DDs some pretty expensive Christmas presents but didn't bother to give me any money to support them.

I think I forgot your questions......oh yeah, Plan A. Not so good today. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Forgive yourself and dust yourself off and back into Plan A, Fox.

I don't know any BS here that hasn't love busted at least once during Plan A. As hard as you thought Plan A was gonna be, you wished it was that easy.

I'm wondering why most of this financial stuff hasn't been legally decided by the courts (or mediator) yet? Or is it your WH is simply ignoring his legal obligations. Have you taken any legal action to protect yourself and children financially hon?

Jo

My Plan B letter is on my other thread...I will hunt it up and post it here.

The finances and custody have not been determined yet as I am stretching the D out as long as I possibly can. Yes, WH is completely ignoring his legal obligations. My attorney said I could get an emergency injunction right away to force WH to assist with financial obligations. However, an interim custody plan would also be worked out at that time. I opted to not do the injunction to hold off on the custody decision. Right now custody is in my favor. I have some say about when they go with WH and can keep them away from OW. Once a "plan" is legally in place, I lose that control.

Thank you so much for your support. It helped me tremendously to vent at him today. Over and done with and now back to Plan A. It's also does me good to see and hear about some of the things OW as done and that things aren't perfect in their world.

After talking to WH, I called OW H and asked if he knew what OW plans were for the night my DDs will be at WH house. He said he didn't know but would find out.

So until those financially legal determination have been set, you should prepare yourself for more possible missed obligations by your husband. Meaning, no love busting when it happens again. Try not to voice your anger, even though its perfectly warranted.

And please don't get me wrong here, I don't blame you for your anger when he is remiss in meeting his obligations to his children yet can find the funds for expensive gifts, its def NOT okay. Moreover its dead wrong and irresponsible.

Thank God you have a level head and are seeing to it that he's not going to drag you and your children under with him.

Jo

Here is my Plan B letter:

Dear WS,

I regret that we find ourselves in the situation we’re in. I never imagined this would happen to us.

I know that you’ve been unhappy for a while, for many reasons, some of which you may not be sure of. I’m aware that my behavior in the past contributed in part to your unhappiness and the emotional estrangement between us. I’ve worked very hard these past couple of months to make myself a better wife, mother, and person. The changes I’ve made have improved my relationships with many of the people in my life, especially DD13 and DD12. We’re closer now than ever. People can change if they are willing to take a long, hard look in the mirror and hold themselves accountable for who they are and what they have done. I did that and I’m proud of the person I have become.

I still believe we can have a happy, loving, fulfilling marriage. I believe we can learn from our mistakes, grow from them and with effort and desire we can begin to slowly rebuild the love that was the foundation of our marriage and start to become a family again, for our sake and our daughters’. I believe we can have a marriage based on trust and honesty where we both feel safe sharing our innermost thoughts, feelings, fears and dreams. The kind of marriage we both imagined when we said “I do”. I’m not naïve, I know there’s been a lot of damage done. It won’t be easy but it can be done. I’ve had the good fortune in the last couple of months to meet many people who have been able to do it.

I’ve suffered tremendous pain from seeing our marriage fall apart, learning about your relationship with OW and dealing with impending divorce, but I never stopped loving you and I never forgot what a wonderful person you are and how much joy you brought me. That gave me strength and hope to go on. But the pain has become too much to bear.

I do not want this divorce. I want to be your wife, in every sense of the word. I want to hold you, talk with you, laugh and cry with you, comfort you, share the joy of raising a family with you. As much as I want this, you have made it clear that you don’t, and as long as you feel this way, I cannot be a part of your life except as the mother of your daughters, it is simply too painful. Therefore, I must ask you not to contact me except for emergencies regarding DD13 and DD12. This is something I believe is necessary to preserve and protect the love I still have for you before it slips away. If you want to see them, call them and ask them. I will let them know if we have other plans and they can let you know. I will not encourage or discourage them in spending time with you or talking with you. Your relationship with them is what you are making it, it is your responsibility.

As always, I will continue to be the best mother I can be and do whatever is necessary to insure our daughters’ happiness and make their lives as fulfilling as possible.

If, down the road, you have a change of heart and decide you want to give our marriage a chance, I am open to discussing it with you and working out a plan to restore our marriage and make it what we only dreamed it could be, but I will need to know you are committed to our marriage and assurance that OW is no longer a part of your life. I still love you, and as I said before, I believe in our marriage and I am willing to do whatever is necessary, but until that time, please respect my wishes.

All my love,

BS

Too long, and it doesn't clearly spell out your REQUIREMENTS to end plan B and allow him back into your life.

"Please realize that until you have completely removed OW from your life, are willing to go to marriage/individual counseling with me to work on our marriage, and to take whatever actions are needed to help us both recover from this and work on things, I can no longer permit you to be a part of my life. No marriage, no friendship, nothing except the minimal contact between us needed to take care of our children. Any communication needed to allow us to take care of them needs to go through xxx (you pick someone). Other than that, there is nothing further for you and I to discuss until you've taken these steps to repair our relationship."

Kinda along those lines.

Thank you, Owl. I will revise and repost.

I just got off the phone with the loan officer. She talked to WH and he gave her some song and dance about BS' truck and BS' loan...she cut him short and told him it was his responsibility also and he didn't get to pick and choose what he was responsbile for. He signed the loan papers too. He is supposed to call her back today and let her know whether he will sign the modification or not. In a way, I hope he doesn't. A judge will NOT like this!

WH bought DD12 a 4 wheeler for Christmas. She got to ride it on Christmas eve day for an hour and has not seen it since. WH took it back to his house where DD12 has only been once for dinner. I found out today that OW DS7 rode it before Christmas and has ridden it often since. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> I will not being sharing that information with DD12 as it would really hurt her feelings. But DARN it BURNS me! It was bad enough he gave her a present she has been wanting for a very long time and then took it away from her, he is letting someone connected to the ENEMY enjoy it! What happens when/if DD12 and OW DS7 finally meet and he tells her how much he has ridden her 4 wheeler? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

OW and WH don't know it, but I've met her DS7. I went to OW H to exchange information and he was there. Really cute kid. I feel bad for him. One day he was trying to explain who WH was to OW H sister when she went to OW/WH house to pick him up for a visit. He said "he's mom's ex-husband". <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Maybe he can see into the future? Just shows his confusion in what is going on. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

I'm actually doing well emotionally today. It is so much easier to be angry than it is to be hurt!

WH called me this morning crying and upset. Wants to be in DDs lives and is missing them, etc. Feels like I am not letting him see them. I asked him when I refused to let them see him when he asked for them. No answer....because I've never refused to let them see him. He has chosen not to ask for them. He was bothered that when I go out of town etc that I do not call him to take DDs, I take them to my mothers without even giving him the option. I told him that I don't trust him to keep DDs out of his situation. He snuck around behind my back before, how do I know he wouldn't pull another fast one? He said he would make other arrangements so they weren't at the house with her. I suggested maybe she stay with her own husband. Lots of things said, lots of emotion, etc. At one point when he said "I just wanted to tell you what I am feeling today", I said "why don't you tell Mike's wife" to which he said "I did". <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> Then why is he calling me?!

He now wants to meet to come to a schedule, which I have been asking for and he hasn't followed through with. We aren't meeting until next weekend (Jan 6 or 7). I don't really know if I should or not. I'm tempted to just let the lawyers do it, safer on my heart that way. But I would like to know what he wants.

OW H called to say OW was in an uproar today too when she dropped DS 7 off at OW H house.

Maybe things are not so perfect anymore? He isn't saying anything directly about me, only about missing the kids. I'm still nobody to him.

As a kid we would occasionally visit my cousin's dairy farms in St. Albert, Canada. "How this cow cracks" was a reference to a vertical split or crack in the cow's claw wall that caused extreme pain and lots of trouble. Funny--I haven't heard that expression before or since.

You're still in Plan A, no Fox?

The reason I ask is I believe your husband was reaching out to "YOU" (bold above). He already told OW who didn't meet his need for understanding what he felt, and so he reached out to you to fill it.

And because he was reaching out to you I have an inkling things are crappy in affair-ville.

Jo

Fox,

Here's a link to LilSis's Thread where she is in a similar sitch as yours. Maybe give it a read:

Lil Sis's Thread - CLICK HERE

Thanks pieta! It makes much more sense now. Funny how those expressions get started and how long they can hang on.

Resilient,

In regards to him reaching out to me for understanding, do I give it to him? This month we will start negotiations for the divorce. Is he just softening me up so I am "fair" with the negotiations. I really don't thinks so....he was so upset on Friday. He's called me every day since also. They seem like nonsense calls...no real direction although he does have some lame excuse for the call.

I don't know which way to go with this. I don't think I want him back at all so should I even be worrying about his reasons for calling. I want to talk to him partly just for curiosity's sake....but it's better if I keep my distance because I hate to see him this broken.

When he called yesterday part of our conversation was:

WH: Are you doing okay?
BS: I'm doing what I have to do. I'm doing pretty well.
WH: Good
BS: Are you doing okay? You've sounded pretty upset lately.
WH: You know how I can get...I'm just really down right now.
BS: Are you worried about work? The girls said you had been working pretty hard lately.
WH: I'm getting my a$$ chewed left and right at work....and I'm worried about us, and I'm worried about the kids. I'm just really down right now.
BS: If you need to talk, I'm here.
WH: I know you are.

I was understanding and didn't make any comment on the "us" part. As far as I'm concerned, there is no "us". But it is nice to know that he is thinking of someone other than himself. The kids too.... all of it has been just about him and his feelings "today". This is the first time since the beginning of all of this that he has asked how I am doing.

OW H asked their son how much WH was there. OW DS7 said not very much. He was always at work. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" /> Glad to hear not all that much has changed!

We're supposed to get together this coming Saturday to discuss visitation schedule for DDs. Hopefully it will actually get done this time...I've tried to do this before and he would say he was willing but would never follow through. Since they can't meet OW, it limits his schedule. I did tell him that it didn't have to. He could get his own place and this wouldn't be nearly as difficult. He didn't answer. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

What do I do from here? continue to be still? He's seen me having a good time and living my life as it is now, but he's also seen me crying and upset.

Any suggestions on things to bring up in our talk this weekend? Should I discuss anything but the schedule for the kids? Should I take this opportunity to point out how much this has hurt me or do I stay away from relationship talk. I really don't know what direction I want to go. I just don't see reconciliation happening and I don't know that I want it to.

Please offer suggestions. And thanks, Resilient, I will check that other thread.

WH called again yesterday morning "to check on DDs". He gave them cell phones, he should be asking them himself. Still very broken up. He offered to fix some things around the house. I told him I was here if he needed to talk. He said I know you are. Then he said he was there if I needed to talk, too. Anytime. Is concerned that we won't be able to be friends after this. I told him I probably couldn't be. That it is safer for my own well being to keep my distance because I continue to be hurt by his choices.

He asked what my plans were for today. I told him what my plan was, which included swimming with DDs and my older sister and her kids. He said he might drop by to see the girls. I said that was fine. When he got there, my older sister and I were in the hot tub. Instead of going over to the kids in the pool, he came to the hot tub and sat by the side and talked to me.

When it was time to go, I headed into the changing area and my sister stayed by the pool a little longer. As she walked by WH, he grabbed her arm and pulled her into a hug and held onto her for a couple of extra seconds. When he let go her told her to make sure that she took care of me (with tears in his eyes). She said she would and that he needs to take care of himself too. That DDs were the most important thing in this and he needed to be healthy and well to help take care of them. He started really crying and than she did too. He was waiting when we got out to get in cars and he told DDs goodbye. I stayed at my sister's truck and didn't say much to him at all.

I don't know what to do at this point. Help him or let him figure it out on his own?

The following is an email I received from WH today after I had sent him pics of DDs and I:

Thank you for the pics. I am sorry that I've hurt you. I will always keep the girls and the good times we shared close to my heart. I also want to thank you for being truthful about what's going on in your and the girl's life and the way you are feeling. I know in our lives we both don't have anyone that we can tell how we are feeling and understand it. I hope that we can still be able to talk about the girls and their lives as while as ours to each other. I do place a lot of the blame on myself. Thing have been said to each other that we swore we would never do and did. I hope from this point on in our lives we can be honest with each other and do all the thing right for the kids in the future. I hope I don't lose a friend that I once had. I wish only good thing for you. Let me know what time we are going to have our meeting on Saturday.


My response to him:

I hope the pictures help you little bit. The three of us will always love you. We know what a good man you are......you've just made a very big mistake that we have all been hurt by. Everyone makes mistakes, it's admitting that you have done so and how you correct them that counts. None of us is perfect. I hope you learn as much from this as I have.

I struggle with how to respond to you.......should I help you when I see you in pain or do I leave you alone to work through it on your own? I just don't know. I hate to see you hurt like this, but right now you are going through only a fraction of what I have gone through for months. You had someone, I was alone. You chose this, I did not. It seems my mind and heart are always fighting with each other. My head tells me to leave you alone, that this is what you wanted and I can't save you from it as much as I may want to. My heart still wants to go to you and comfort you and help you through the pain. I hurt when you hurt. Believe it or not, I do understand what you are going through. It is different than mine was, but I still understand you. I've put myself in your shoes and tried to look at it from your point of view. I didn't like it there, so I didn't stay long. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I'm sorry you are hurting, I hope you can find your way out of it. I know you can, you just have to want to and take some sort of action to do it. You can't escape from yourself, so make choices you can live with. I believe in you, you can find a way.

But the bottom line is you still live with her and are planning to take our girls into that environment. I just can't see past that right now, I have to protect them from that. I don't see us being able to be friends. I am/was your wife and that is what I wanted to be and no friend would treat me like you have. You wanted out and you got out in the worst possible way. I have always been honest with you and will continue to do so and work with you about the girls, but as long as you are with her, I cannot have any relationship with you, friends or otherwise. You say you don't want to lose a friend that you once had, but you lost me when you chose her. I'm not angry with you right now, just confused, hurt, and lost. I've worked my way through most of the anger and frustration and really most of the other feelings too, but I still have moments. I'm not necessarily gone from your life forever yet but you are continuing to put her above the girls and I. I will not accept being put last anymore. It still hurts because as much as I try not to, I still love you and I still don't understand what really happened to us and how this could have happened. I don't know how to get past that either, but I'm working on it. I'm moving forward and making the best decisions for the girls and I that I can.

There are ways out of this, but you have to find that path for yourself. Don't beat yourself up over what has already happened, move forward and make the right decisions for you and the girls from this day forward. Today is another chance to make it right for you and for them. I truly want you to be happy and I hope you can be again.

Let's meet at 9 on Saturday. You choose the place.



Any thoughts from anyone?

Which plan are you in?

I'm in Plan A. I have been unable to set up a schedule for custody, finances, etc, as soon as that is complete. I am going to Plan B.

When you have the meeting be sure to tell him that you are his WIFE, and if you want a friend, you will get a dog.

I found it interesting in his email that he said neither one of us has anyone in our lives we can talk to who would really understand. You would think OW would understand, she's doing the exact same thing.

I have talked to OW H about these recent developments with WH. He has seen nothing from OW. They talk mostly when exchanging their son and he is continuing to work on the legal separation paperwork. She isn't fighting about anything but she is not in the same emotional state as WH either. I wonder if she knows?

I think you will do better when you are able to go go Plan B. WH seems to be relying heavily on you. When you talk to him, be sure to make it clear that you are his wife, and won't be his friend.

I think I will do better in Plan B also. It is so incredibly painful to watch him hurt and be so upset and lost. I was actually doing pretty well looking towards the future when he brought me back into it with that first phone call last week. Now I'm questioning everything again.

Today was the first time he emailed me in 4 months. He's broken and I'm at a loss as to where to go from here. with or without him.

You can expect the affair to end around mid Feb - 6 months is average when they are actually living together. He is doing this to himself, and then whining about it. Don't feel sorry for him. Start Plan B ASAP and let her fill ALL his needs.

Our divorce is final on January 31. I can't really go to Plan B until afterwards because of schedule for the kids.

I don't feel he has leaned on me at all. We have had extremely limited contact until Dec 29 when he called crying. Otherwise, he has absolutely stayed away from me. Bought cell phones for DDs so he wouldn't have to call the house phone and go through me. This is the first inkling I've gotten from him that he even has a thought about me once in a while. It's nice to see that he finally has feelings, they've been hidden for so long.

What would a lighthouse do? Be still?

What is the "discussion" going to be about?

just want to agree with B - make sure he understands with 100% certainty that you will not be his friend.
your email spelled this out fairly well, but keep that mantra going.
because if he continues this path - the day will come when you no longer love him - in fact you reach a point where you barely like him. IF he continues this path.

when I read your words "I will always love you" my first thought was - no you won't. If you get a D, and he continues with OW, eventually he will become someone you barely like.

I think your biggest struggle here is this: What do YOU want? The fog is clearly breaking. Are you interested in marriage with this man? You get to decide for yourself - he doesn't get to make this choice for you.

Something Mimi has been saying recently (I believe to eav and catgirl both) is that you want that man to come to YOU; you want him to WANT you. Now, in Plan A, I think this is a subtle action; in Plan B it's pretty obvious, because a WS must then answer to your boundaries without question.

Question is, do you feel like he is reaching out to you for you, for family? I'm not saying to ask him this, I'm saying to ask yourself this.

believer,

the discussion is supposed to be about a schedule for the kids. Which would get me into Plan B faster. I have a feeling he is going to turn it into a discussion about the whole situation and where we go from here...friends for the sake of the children, etc.

womanoffaith5,
You're right that is the decision. What do I want? I don't know right now. First and foremost, what is the best for DDs? I believe it is their parents together in a loving home. Can that happen for us? That's what I don't know. And I don't know how to find out without risking everything again. A false recovery would harm my children more.

My intent when I said I would always love him was more along the lines that he will always have a place in my heart. After all, he is the father of my children and we had many good years together. I will not always be "in love" with him. I'm not in love with him now. It's just so hard to see him broken and beaten and not try to help him out of it.

I had another rough night last night, rolling everything through my head again and again. This morning is much better. I know that I do have options and that I have to be careful not to get sucked back into his chaos.

Thank you so much for your thoughts.

silentlucidity,

I think Mimi is right. Maybe I don't need to agonize so much over what I should do. If he wants me than he needs to take action or say so.

I don't know if it is me or family that he wants. Initially I thought he just wanted family. By calling my brother on Christmas day when he was at my house and by calling the kids in the middle of functions we were doing with my extended family. But with the comment he made to my sister at the pool, the email he sent yesterday, and the phone calls to me when he is crying...makes me think he is reaching to me . I don't know if it is because he wants me or just to eat cake.

When WH and I talk on Saturday, one of the questions I was going to ask was what his future plans are with OW. Are they planning on getting married etc.... In one of our phone conversations lately I asked him if OW was divorced or was she getting divorced. He paused for a long moment and then said "I assume so". I told him that even after our divorce was final, hers was not and he was still living with a married woman and he should think about what lesson that teaches our DDs.

In our schedule agreement I intend to include no overnight stays of the opposite sex for either one of us and DDs are not to meet OW. Who knows, he may get out of his A before my DDs have to be exposed to her. DDs will be spending the night at OW/WH house this coming Wednesday but OW is out of town on business (which I have verified independently) and I will be doing a drive-by or two to check.

My thought is to offer him a schedule of one evening a week and every other weekend (he will have to make arrangements so they are not staying overnight when she is there, either she will have to leave or they will have to be elsewhere). It has been suggested to me that WH and I come up with a couple of different options and present them to DDs for their input. Is that too much pressure for them?

Please.......any suggestions?

Here is an email a friend of mine sent to his wife early last year. It may give you some strength in your discussion with your husband tomorrow.

Good luck...I am short of time this week. I really hope the door of opportunity is opening and that it was not just the holidays.

Mr. Wondering




WW,

Our conversation this morning just punctuated again what I have felt and left me again feeling empty. I have known for awhile that you do not know what you are doing in this. I know this morning’s phone call was probably about you finding out what I am up to…in order to possibly justify you going out and finding someone. You can feel better about heading out, if you know that I am also heading out. As well as trying to hurt me by talking about your interest in someone else.

As I said, I don’t want to hear about your life in that area. I don’t want to know about it. One day, when you marry…I don’t even want to meet or deal with your new husband. He can save his breath because I have nothing for him. But…since you did say you were thinking about dating someone, I would just add this (although I don’t know why I am wasting my time because I know you don’t want to hear it): WW, don’t lead some other guy into adultery again. It wouldn’t be so bad if you and OM were hooking up again because you are both down that road anyway. But you are still a married woman…and unless I commit adultery, you will remain so. Just as Jesus told the woman at the well that she had 5 husbands…God does not recognize nor bless what you are doing. So, as I don’t want to see another guy end up committing adultery, I ask that you think about what you are doing and whether you want that placed upon them.

Enough said about that. As I said…I know you don’t want to hear it. But as your husband, I am called to speak the truth. And now that I have…I can let that go knowing I have done as He asked.

I really didn’t intend to write a letter bashing you. You said in the conversation that you know what I think of you. No, no. You have no idea what I think of you. Sure, your fruit over the last 2 years leads not only me, but everyone around us, to believe certain things about you. But deep down, I know you WW. Better than anyone.

The thing you don’t realize is the depths of my love for you. It is readily apparent that you have no concept of that kind of love. It is the kind, though you slay me…I will still love you. It is the kind that let you back …only for you to betray me time and again. It is the kind that held nothing back when I tried to reconcile with you. As the Prodigal Son came home…you also were given everything as if you never left. It is the kind, that while anger welled up inside me against you and the OM…I never pursued vengeance.

It is the kind of love that would go to the ends of the Earth for you, and for our kids. You know, it is hard to hear about you comforting DD in this. Why? Well, let me give an analogy. Let’s say you were taking a hammer to my hand, and you break my hand. And then you come up and say “Here, let me hold you and make it all better.” Wait a minute…you were the one that caused it!

While I have a place in parts of our marriage where things weren’t perfect, I have no place nor responsibility in the adultery…nor the ulitmate divorce. Our kids live out of bags now. They are at your place for 4 days, then my place for 3. Their stability, their home…all taken away from them. And so, as they suffer through this, it is hard for me to see you comforting them because it is you that have caused their pain. And you have always had the power to fix this. But you have refused.

The kids are right to be angry about this. They will be right to be angry about new people in their lives. They deserved better. All they want is their family, their home…their futures back. I have had talks with them concerning this stuff…and they have revealed much to me. That they still do hope and pray that things will work out right. That they don’t want to accept anyone else into our family.

You said in that conversation we had right before court, that our relationship wasn’t that bad. That you knew of many marriages that were far worse. But, you said that “too much water has gone under the bridge.” And in that statement, you have relegated all of us to this mess that can never be fully fixed.

That statement is a lie from the pit of ******. I am not saying you are a liar, I am saying that you believe the lie. Unlike many women that have gone down the road you have, you have had a husband that was willing to restore you…and at the same time, begin to make changes in order to have the marriage and family we both deserve. Most guys would have kicked you to the curb…or made you pay for your betrayal. But you took that love and grace that I gave you…and said “no thanks.” Just as you took Jesus’ love and grace and said “no thanks.”

How can I say that? Because that statement about too much water under the bridge means that you believe that Jesus is a liar. He made many promises to us about what is possible if we bend our knee to His will. But your belief that too much water has passed is based on the fact that you refuse to bend your knee to Him and do the things that He commands and wants for your life. You want to remodel your life in your own image, instead of His will. And all you continue to make is a mess.

You search for love and meaning in all the wrong places now. This is why I say that I feel sorry for this guy if you date him and maybe even get serious…as he has no idea what you are getting him into. And no idea that one day, God willing…you will wake up and realize that you have been chasing a mirage all these years. That you had it all…but told God “no thanks.” He will miss out on what he deserves in a wife, because he got caught up in this mess and didn’t realize until it was too late…that God has had a different will for WW.

It says in the Bible that decisions such that you have made here go down three generations. Our kids and our grandkids will suffer because of your divorce. Study after study state that kids suffer their whole life from divorce. They are less secure, suffer mental constraints…and even have a higher chance of failing in their own marriages…because of divorce. As far as I am concerned, it is downright cruel!

And no amount of hugs, nor counseling, will change that. I am not saying that I am not doing everything I can to ease their pain. Because I am. But the pain will remain no matter what I do. Or a counselor does.

And all you have to say is what you said this morning “well, I hope God will heal Karen.” WW, YOU have the power to end her pain and give her the life she deserves. You just refuse to do so.

As I said above, you have NO IDEA how I feel about you! You don’t know the depths of my love. But because of those depths, and your continued rebellion to me and to God…I cannot have conversations with you about your life or mine. I have to interact with you because of the kids…and will continue to do so. But everything else, from your job, to your health…to the weather…well, you cannot do that with me outside of repenting and returning to our marriage and our family.

You know, when you first left, I remember you calling me one morning right after you came back from Montana with the OM. You called and were talking about the beautiful sunrise you were seeing as you went to work. Do you remember? A few weeks later, you came home supposedly to reconcile. But I remember getting off the phone with you and thinking: “why is she talking to me? She is with the OM. She is getting everything she wants now. Why is she calling me wanting to talk about the sunrise?” I think you know the answer to that question, WW.

But, we no longer can have those kinds of conversations. You have romanticized your future life. You have romanticized this divorce. You think that with time (just as you eluded to this morning), that things will settle down and everyone will be okay with all of this.

But the reality is…no they wont. No I wont. No, the kids wont. And in the end, you will realize that you wont either. The SADDEST day of my life will be when I hear that you finally realize the mistake you have made…and that you should have just committed to our family and the Lord.

I had wished that you had been serious about our reconciliations…but you weren’t. Even now, I hold the same misbegotten notions as the kids do, about how God will get thru to you and bring the Prodigal home. Where there is love and all is forgiven. But the fact is that I know you do not have the ability to make amends…that all you do is just burn bridges and move on rather than do the tough things…now makes me understand that the Lord getting thru to you is an impossibility.

You will see excitement, and even have the feelings of human love again. Maybe for this guy. Maybe for the OM. Maybe for another. But as things settle down…and all becomes quiet, you will realize that it doesn’t measure up to what God has given you…and what you have unthankfully and disrespectfully returned back to Him.

I am surrounding myself now with people that love the Lord. That understand the roles of husbands, wives…and of family. That understand that no matter what, you live up to your commitments and you stick with family. Relationships that will model for our kids what it means to follow the Lord. And because of my faithfulness to you and this family thru all of this, and me continuing to follow the Lord in a future relationship, I know our kids will look at me and say “My old man did it right.”

As with the Prodigal Son’s father, I have waited everyday…looking off into the distance. Waiting to see your form over the horizon…heading home to your family. That you would come home with “tears of repentance” and want to be a part of this family again. That the well-being of our two kids would be enough for you to do whatever it takes to make our marriage and our family work. But you remain in a far off land…pursuing your own will.

People call me a fool because of that. They said all along that you were not capable of repentance and that I should just give it up. Shoot, even your Dad told me that. And maybe I have been a fool. But it has been because of my love for you and for those kids that I have sacrificed and waited. The things of God are foolishness to the world. Just as you believe God healing our marriage and family is foolishness (ie. water under the bridge).

I know you have heard this stuff from me a thousand times. And I now go back to my silence with you. Moving our family forward. But still…one eye foolishly on the horizon. Until the day that is coming soon, when I will make the same commitment I made to you 16 years ago…to another. It is a very short time until that will happen. Very short.

So, go off and do as you will. No one has been able to stop you…nor can they. I have always wished that you would bend your knee to the Lord and do as He has asked of you. But, you still say “no thanks.” But please leave me out of your current life…as I want no part of anything that isn’t His will.

Devon

It's not exact to your sitch...but I saw you thought about discussing his intentions with OW. No way.

I hope it helps you.

It IS more of a in Plan B attitude. In Plan A, you'll want to be a little nicer...but use the stick about certain things like: Being Friends.

Mr. Wondering

Thank you, MrWondering. This letter touched me. I, too, am afraid that WH is only reacting to the holidays and the fact that my family came to surround me this year. While he was left alone with OW.

I'm doing my best not to jump to conclusions and read too much into his recent actions. This is how is was feeling the last few days, but is he feeling this today? And does it really matter? I let myself get all wound up again because of how HE is feeling. I was doing well and truly moving on and looking forward to the future. I feel like I got yanked back again. He is still living with OW and as of yet he is unwilling to remove himself from her. That is what I have to remember......nothing else matters without that being resolved.

I desperately need distance from him. After a schedule for the kids is resolved, can I do an effective Plan B while we are going through the divorce negotations? I will not be required to speak to him, but will have to see him at negotiations.

Thank you for responding, I feel I get lost on the boards sometimes since my situation is not very exciting to others. I've had months of nothing to report but have spent a lot of time keeping up with other posters' stories. They are an incredible source of inspiration, strength, and hope.

WH called again this morning to let me know where we are meeting tomorrow. And then he asked how DDs are doing. He talked to them both this morning before school.....

I'm afraid of pushing him away to where he doesn't think he can ever come to me. Even for reconciliation....but he's already gone, so how far away can he be pushed?

I think I will keep the discussion tomorrow strictly to DDs. Even if he brings up R, I will tell him I am not discussing ANY type of R while he still has contact with OW. Period.

Please give thougts on Plan B after our discussion tomorrow. Should I hand him the Plan B letter as we are leaving?

Are you prepared for Plan B????

You must go really dark for it to be effective.

The negotiations can be handled by your attorney for the most part. It's the emails, calls, text messages, exchange of kids, etc. that you've got to be prepared for. I also hope that your Plan B doesn't stink up the divorce/custody arrangement that WH is agreeing to currently. There may be just enough time for him to create a stink and TRY to turn the fight into a battle of epic proportions if Plan B and having to correspond through an intermediary pisses him off at the last second. His lawyer might conceive of an argument that YOU are not considering the kids best interests by going into Plan B. Consider carefully if a couple weeks is worth such possibility.

I hope you've read up on Plan B to the extreme.

If so...I say, now's as good a time as any.

I am not a Plan B expert (never done one myself) so I did not look over your letter. Maybe post the revised letter on a new thread for input tonight.

Good luck,

Mr. Wondering

It is too much pressure for them. I would not approach them. They don't want to see either of you hurt - so they will be afriad that if they choose plan "A" Dadddy may be hurt, or in plan "B" Mommy may be hurt.
also - as they get older, the day will come when someone has to make the final decision about something, and that someone needs to be you. It is best to establish yourself as the "Alpha Female" right now. You don't want to give them the impression that they can come and go as they please -staying with Mommy when they are happier there, but going to Daddys when Mommy is mean to them (making them clean their room, or do their homework!). See what I mean?

I also want to touch on something that you said - that your decisions about your WH need to revolve around what is best for the girls. There is some truth in that - certainly you need to think of their long term future well being. BUT - it is also OK to think about what is best for you. Because if you are taking care of yourself, then you are giving your girls a Mom who is happy and emotionally healthy.

I don't have any great adivice about your plan B - whether or not to hand him the letter tomorrow. I think you will have to go with your gut on that one. I do think that Plan B is a good way to send a strong message of "we will NOT be friends later - you are not free to call and cry on my shoulder about OW" it is good for him to finally see the reality of what his life would be like post D.

hang in there. you are doing all the right stuff.

I am sorry you are tossing and truning at night. Perhaps tonight when you can;t sleep, you could turn on the light and start writing in your journal. That will help you to sort your thoughts, and feel better prepared for the talk tomorrow.

If you are ready for Plan B (financially, Plan A good, etc.), then tomorrow may be a good time to start, handing him the letter prior to leaving. Make sure that you either have an intermediary (I had one, but it sort of fizzled out), or be sure that your WH has it crystal clear how to contact you.

I know of one poster (lunamare) who has her WH leave messages on her answering machine, but I prefer either text or email, so that I do not have to hear WH's voice, as Plan B does involve a period of 'withdrawal' for YOU from WH, and hearing his voice would have been difficult for me--still is...

Please let us know what you chose...

My gut tells me to wait on Plan B until the D is final. Although it seems a bit manipulative, right now, while he is down I may be able to get the best "deal" from him for DDs and I.

By waiting for Plan B until after the D, it will not save the marriage. But will help me in the long run. By doing it now, I'm afraid I will give his lawyer something to use against me. And nothing will be signed after tomorrow, just a mutual verbal agreement. As he has shown before, his actions don't back up his words. I may need to give him the opportunity to adhere to the schedule before I do Plan B. I don't think he will take it as it is intended, he will see it as me being difficult. At that point, he may start to fight over petty things.

I will stick with it for a few more weeks. I just feel a certain desperation to get away from him for my own mental health. I'm having difficulty not letting his actions/feelings/words effect me. How do you make the decision to not let them effect me and then make it happen?

Eye opening and exhausting 4 1/2 hour talk on Saturday. Will update shortly.

Don't leave me hanging.......

Continuation on final court date........how's that for a cliff hanger?

Won't be able to do full update til this afternoon. Have to do SOME work around the office!

Okay, I think I have a few free moments and I'll try to get this all out.

First surprising item: WH was on time. I pulled up at exactly 9:00am and he was already there. There has always been a running joke that he would be late to his own funeral. It always felt to me when he was late that whatever the appointment was for was not important enough to him to get there on time. So this was a plus in seeing his changed ACTIONS.

Second surprising item: WH had PAGES of his thoughts on what to do with DDs as far as custody and visitation are concerned. He actually had a notebook and a folder all prepared with his plan. Amazing....this is a man who always depended on me to do all the research and make a plan and than he would follow along. I think this gave him an out if things didn't go well and he could blame the "plan" on me. Another changed ACTION.

We went through all the custody/visitation information together and came to an agreement. There were a few sticking points along the way but we got through them ok. The first sticking point was that I viewed his plan as a long term plan that would work in the future but not an immediate workable plan for the kids. Mainly because it included continous overnight visits at OW/WH house. No go right now. To which he says he understands. We completed the long term plan and will talk again on Tuesday about the interim plan. He seems to be truly LISTENING and TALKING with FEELINGS about others than himself.

That was the first 1/2 hour of the conversation. Then he turned it to "us". He feels as though I have died, that it is even worse than when his dad died because I am still here. He doesn't want to lose me. He has gone back over every day of our marriage and misses things and wonders what he could have done. Says he has second thoughts contantly. Then he said something about us working it out and then quickly backtracked by saying "I'm not saying that is what I want. I know that just isn't possible, you could never trust me again." etc. I told him that anything is possible of both people commit and do the required work, but I also followed up by saying I wasn't sure that is what I wanted either. He told me how hurt he is and how hard it is to hear that I am moving forward with my life. He is worried about how I am doing and thinks I just say I am okay because I don't want him to know how I really am. He says he has searched and searched and searched to find just one thing about me that would be bad enough to make him not hurt for doing this and he can't find it.

But then in the next breath he is telling me he doesn't want to hurt her and make her think that he is running to me.

He cried and cried and cried. I reached over at one point (crying myself) and took his hand for a moment. I squeezed it and then tried to draw back. He wouldn't let it go right away but then finally squeezed back and let go.

He said he was afraid of the day that I find someone and how much it will hurt him to be replaced in my heart. He says he goes to bed each night wishing he wouldn't wake up the next morning. He's afraid that when he dies no one will remember him. Absolutely heartbreaking how he presented this.

Thanked me profusely for meeting with him and being honest. I've spoken to him multiple times since Saturday and each time he has thanked me.

After one comment he made about how much he missed me and didn't want to lose me, I said that he can't have us both. He said, I know. Maybe I just do want my cake and to eat it too. I'm surprised he sees that. I made it crystal clear that I would not be able to continue to see him and talk to him so deeply after things were settled. That it was safer for my own heart and best for my own healing to not have any relationship with him at all. He cried but said he understood.

I'm really confused by all the back and forth. First he was talking about us and how much he missed me and had so many regrets about this but then talking again about her and not wanting to hurt her and still making plans to take our kids there.

I don't know what this is all supposed to mean. He said I have my own email file at his office and he has them as far back as 2004. He has read through every single one of them and especially my recent ones trying to get the "meaning" of everything.

I told him how difficult it was for me to sit with him and make him feel better knowing that he was just going back to her. He said he understood and deeply appreciated that I would do that. I talked a little about the war between my head and my heart and what one wants versus what the other thinks is best to protect me from more hurt. Later on in the conversation, he used the same analogy for his own situation. He is in a constant internal war. And he says he is absolutely exhausted. He says he is the lowest he has ever been. Then follows up with how I understand him and know what is truly in his heart. That even when he says and does things, alot of it is not truly what he feels, it is just lashing back.

So do I really know? If so, here is what I would say is in his heart. He loves me and wants me back but doesn't know how to get there. He's pulled between the two of us, even though he knows I am truly the one he should be with. I think he doesn't see how I would ever forgive him or how this would not be a forever problem between the two of us. Becuase he is still with her, I don't know how to give him that out. And I don't know if he truly wants it. He sounded like it, his demeanor and body language tells me that he does. But he is still with her and wasn't saying he wanted out.

I told him he wasn't good for any relationship right now. He needed to get a grip on himself and get out of this depression before he made any drastic decisions.

He really seemed to be LISTENING. It is so good to be HEARD. But what did it MEAN? Not much that I can see, he went home to her and today is the same it has been for months.

I tried to get up and leave a couple of times and he would pull me back into the conversation. The fourth time, I said I really had to get back to DDs. And he looked straight at me and said "it is so hard to watch you leave" He walked me out to the truck and made a little small talk, then rubbed my arm and told me to take care of myself.... and thank you again for coming today.

My lawyer called today and he has a dr appt out of state on my court date. He had already talked to WH lawyer to get a continuance but he, of course, had to talk to WH first. In the meantime, DD12 has a ski trip that she asked WH to attend. Which he never done before. He wants to go, but is on the same day as our final divorce date. He, too, is willing to continue. I don't know yet what the new date is. Again he is showing with his ACTIONS that he is putting DDs first. He could have been a stickler on this. He has never been on this ski trip that the school has every year. This year, he is putting work aside and making the EFFORT. Big accomplishment, I think. I'll have to wait and see if it continues.

Then I talked to OW H. She called him today and raised he$$ and was ornery and snotty with him over things. He asked he if she wanted to continue with the LSA or what she wanted to do now. Which was her opportunity to say "no, i want divorce" but she didn't. She said "yeah, I guess, whatever you want to do". WH is unaware that I have spoken with OW H, but OW knows. That is why she called him to yell at him. Why is she keeping this secret from WH? Tomorrow when we talk, I am going to tell him. My thought is she is going to hold on to it until she can use it against me. But I may just turn that around. I will tell WH that she knows and I thought she told him?

OW H asked OW if she still loved WH. She said "Yeah, why wouldn't I". They seems to be at different spots in their relationship. Maybe she doesn't know what WH is going through. He did tell me through the conversation that he kept it separate. His heartache and pain are between him and I and he doesn't involve her. That just seems odd to me, you'd think they would share everything if they were so in love.

Should I be still or should I give WH an out and let him know that recovery is a possibility. I wonder if that isn't just setting myself up for more pain when he rejects me. What do I do now?

can you scrape enough money together for a call to the Harleys?

This is one of the advantages to a Plan B letter - it spells out the "path home". That way you could refer him to the letter.......but I am not sure if this is a good time to throw a Plan B letter at him.

He is clearly struggling And this is the time when you get to watch the A fall apart, and decide for yourself what is best for you.

This is a very difficult time for you.

Hopefully someone else will chime in here.
I am really wondering about a Plan B letter - giving him the path home

i realy would call one of the harley's right now....this seems to be a time that you rally need a plan and solid advice from them....can you get the money together?

it's $185 for 45 minutes but jennifer at least didn't stick to the time limit and i believe i've read posts that say steve doesn't either

ps
i would give anything to hear from my H the things that yours said to you....it means there is still a good chace in my opinion

Thank you, eav, for your response. Unfortunately, I can't scrape enough money together to call the Harley's. I spoke with Jennifer in September but much has changed since then. Actually, maybe I can. This is so important, that maybe I just HAVE to find a way. It wouldn't be until next week......

It does seem like there is a chance to me too.....but then he goes back home to her. It's so confusing. But you're right, it's helps me just to know that I have been a thought in his head and it seems I am a constant thought. I've felt like absolutely nothing to him since he decided to get out. That is what is so painful....that he seemed to find the switch that erased every single feeling and thought of me. I'm glad to know he didn't.

The other part that scares me is if he does decide he wants to come back....do I want him to? My heart says ABSOLUTELY but my head tells me to be careful and not to let him set me up to be hurt again.

We are getting together again tonight for dinner to figure out an interim plan for visitation/custody. I am going to take this opportunity to tell WH that I have spoken often with OW H and voice my worries of how she was with her BH's sons from a previous marriage. She didn't want them around and would not allow them in her house. They were about our daughters ages. She told her BH that "they have rooms at their mother's, they can stay there". I can't imagine my WH with someone like her. What does he get from her?

I've gone back and forth on whether I should do Plan B right now. On one hand I think I should but on the other, with the D so close, I don't want to make the judge think that I am uncooperative.

I may also talk to WH more about recovery....not to educate but to share that it could be a possibility.

womanoffaith,

What about a letter pointing the way home, without actually being a Plan B letter? I think he may be ready for it, but doesn't know how to get there and can't imagine that I would forgive him and trust him again.

Well, things have changed already. WH talked to his lawyer this morning and his lawyer talked him into not continuing. Supposedly his lawyer doesn't have any other time on his own docket to continue this case. I'm positive that WH would have allowed the date to be continued but his lawyer convinced him not to.

I asked WH point blank if he felt this absolutely had to happen and there would never be a chance for us ever. He very quietly said 'yes, I think so'. Think so? That was not very convincing and I told him so. Gently, of course. He said he feels like he just needs to get it done and then it would be okay. I told him it wouldn't, in the end all we are doing is signing a piece of paper. People, feelings, emotions, history, etc is still involved.

He said he fell asleep last night and didn't wake up until this morning so didn't get the interim plan drawn up like he wanted. Still wants to meet but he won't be as prepared as he was planning on being. That's ok, it'll give us a little more time alone together. Even after all that sleep, he is saying "I'm just so tired today, BS"

If I am able to come up with the money to call Jennifer.... would this be a good time to ask WH if he would join me for this call or talk to Jennifer seperately? I really don't feel that he wants a D, but doesn't see any other way either.

Or do I just let it go? He isn't saying he doesn't want D maybe he does and is blaming it all on his lawyer for not moving the date.

The following is an email that I would like to send to WH today. Please give me your thoughts, suggestions, etc.

Felt this song fit us today. No hidden meaning....it just is what it is. I want you to know how important our family is to me and that I just want us all of to find happiness. I also want you to recognize the possibilities for our lives. I believe we can still all find happiness together as a united family. I was just about to say that I know you don't see that but decided to take it back because I don't know what you see or what you hope or what you have just resigned yourself to or how stuck you may feel. I'm going to let your thoughts be yours and not guess at what you may be thinking. But I'm also going to be honest about what I am thinking and give that to you. Even though I am setting myself up for more hurt. I want you to know that recovering our marriage and family is a possibility. There would be a lot of work to do and we'd have to find a way together to get past all this and to build a better marriage for both of us. Things would definately have to be different than what they were, but I think they could be better. I think you would be surprised at my capacity to forgive and change for the better and I've already seen your willingness to improve on the behalf of at least DDs. I know this mess isn't the true YOU and what you believe in. There are many people who have survived an affair and thrived after it. Just think.....if BIL & SIL can do it, don't you think we can?

I'm not begging you to come back, I'm just telling you that I wouldn't reject the idea completely.

Fox,

First of all I want you to know what an inspiration your story has been to me. Yours was the very first I read when I came to MB and I have followed your stitch ever since. I am glad to see you started writing again as I often wondered what ever happened to you.

IMO, your focus has always been on your DDs and in knowing what you had to do maintain your health (mentally and physically) to remain strong for them. (You have done a great job with this and I commend you) It seems to me you have come to a resting place where you know if you never get back with WH, you have chosen your life path and will survive and be happy regardless of him. That is clear to me. DO NOT let him shake that ground for you.

The part that is not clear, and my question to you is…if your WH wanted to come home and start over would you want that too? From what I read it sounds like you might be willing to give him another chance.

WH sounds extremely confused, mainly when he says he does not want to hurt OW. IMO, he has no obligation to her, however he does have an obligation to his family. Yes, you and girls are still his family. (For now anyway) Has he lost his way so much that he can’t recognize this? Is he seeing an IC? He can’t handle this alone. Have you two had any MC at all? Have you articulated to the judge that you DO NOT want a D? I know in my state a strong expression of this could mean a continuance in the case, especially where there are kids involved. By expressing this you could possibly prolong the date and force him into MC.

I think he is terrified and afraid that you will reject the idea of working toward reconciliation more than he is afraid to hurt OW. I bet when it comes right down to it, he would walk away from her with out hesitation if he knew he had you and the girls to work toward. If he is not willing to discuss or doesn’t know what he wants, then I would truly consider a very, very dark Plan B.

My heart is with you and your family,

MyBad

BS 42 (Me)
FWH 38
2 StepDs 17, 15
DS 9
DD 7

D-Day 3/20/06
In Recovery

MyBad, thank you for your thoughts. It is greatly appreciated. Sometimes I feel alone out here, I get responses but don't feel that my life is "juicy" enough to get the same dialog going as others do. Thank you for your kind words, I've tried very hard to do what I've needed to so that the hurt was lessened for my DDs. Although I couldn't keep them completely out of this, I could minimize the pain and not add my own to it. I know I've stumbled along the way, but I've realized I'm human and it's ok to make mistakes too.

I haven't written much in the last few months because things were just status quo, he wasn't speaking to me at all, wasn't seeing the kids very much and just seemed to have cut me out of his life. Now, it seems, he's letting me see what he is going through and I have something to report and ask advice on. I have been here, throughout these months, but just reading, gaining strength and wisdom from others.

I had come to the realization that I will survive and could be happy even if WH did not return. I still believe that to a certain degree. It is just so difficult to watch him in so much pain and anguish and not rush to him and get him through it. His pain causes more pain for me. Mainly because I know it just isn't necessary but that he is choosing it. I did let him shake me up again. I love how you said that I had come to a resting place, that is EXACTLY how I felt. Just resting..... no more panic, or fear, or desperation, or self-doubt, etc. I KNEW/KNOW that it can be done. It's just really hard to not get pulled back in.

Your question is very valid. "If your WH wanted to come home and start over would you want that too?" It's probably not clear to you because it isn't really clear to me. I really want to say yes, I want that chance. And I think I really do, I'm just really afraid of a false recovery. That would really devestate me and only cause more pain for DDs. Without that crystal ball to see into the future, I just don't know. My heart screams yes, give him the chance but my head holds me back.

I have tried to get a continuance and drag this out as long as possible. If one person wants it, it happens. It doesn't matter that the other one doesn't....but I'm going to talk to my lawyer about it and see what he thinks. Maybe if the judge sees the indecision of WH and takes DDs into consideration....maybe.

But I go back and forth also about what is right as far as that is concerned. If it is going to happen, I just need to get it over with so I can go on with my life. If it is going to happen anyway, I get hurt by waiting. And WH is just the same.

To answer your question...... I think the answer is yes. If I saw his ACTIONS and if he was willing to make some changes and show me the effort than yes, I would want that chance. It is what is best for all of us to be together as long as the commitment was there. I'm just afraid that it won't be. It would absolutely be for me but what about him?

He is not seeing an IC. Doesn't believe in them and doesn't think it would help. That will be one thing that I ask for....he needs a release of some sort. Years ago, he would release all of that to me and I would just listen, without digging deeper, just letting him vent.

He did see DDs counselor on one occasion. But it was all about DDs....she is NOT pro-marriage and only dealt with DDs. I may ask him to talk with Jennifer next week. At this point, I don't know if I could talk him into seeing an IC.

I hope that WH would leave OW so easily. But I don't know. He does feel an obligation to her but that may change after I break it to him that she is not divorcing her BH even after her BH offered to do all the work for it. And that OW BH doesn't want it. Walk softly...but carry a big stick. That's my motto at the moment. Approaching him in the right away, offering assistance, but not getting hurt deeper myself.

After the D is final, I will go into absolutely dark Plan B. It safest for my own feelings to get distance. He has to figure out his own stuff, I can't do it for him. I've got enough of my own. I do know that life will be OK after D, it isn't what I wanted for us, but DDs and I will be happy again.

Even when he pulls me back into it a little bit...it is easier to come out of it again, because I know it will get better. As trite as it sounds...time does help you heal. But you have to meet it halfway...use that time wisely.

Again, thank you for your thoughts and encouragement. Your post made me tear up. It helps a great deal to know that people see how hard I've tried to get through this and do what is right by DDs.

I would suggest leaving this part out of the email:

One of the common things that a WS says is "people don't change". You and I know that is crap - we all change, everyday. But in a fog bound WH mind, he is likely to read that last part and say "Foxy is just saying that she will change, to get me to leave OW, but once I leave her, everything will go back to the way they were." this is the sort of crap that a typical OW feeds to the WH.

I also would not mention BIL and SIL's recovery. there is a slight possiblty that he may not agree with it. Perhaps BIL may have shared with him, at some point, a bad moment with SIL, and your WH may still carry that one bad comment as one of his excuses for leaving. Something like "BIL said that SIL held it over his head, and I am not about to let that happen to me".
If BIL made just one negative comment about SIL, then your Hound is likely to hold onto the one negative. Best to leave that out.

Other than that - I guess I am thinking that if YOU feel this email is good to send, then follow your own gut. You certainly know him better than we do. I worry that he may fall back into a deep fog, read your eamil, and then go back to treating you like crap "so you don't get your hopes up". If he does retreat into his old crappy behavior, you will rapidly lose your love for him. I would hate to see that for you.

I would also be cautious how much info you divulge about your converstaions with OWH. I am certain that OW has made him out to be a lying monster. She may have said that she wanted to be around his kids but he would not allow it. that woman will say or do anything to make herself look better. if you suddenly pop up with "OWH's said XYZ" your fog bound WH may run to defend her. He all ready feels like he doesn't want to hurt her. If you come up with anything negative - it will further prove that her own BH is a monster, and OW could not possilby go back to a monster like that, who tells lies about her.

I guess I would at least tell your WH that you have spoken to OWH a few times - but don't go into detail.

Remember that part of the WS handbook includes defending the lying, home wrecking, two-bit wh**re that he is currently with.

It is far better to let your WH see for himself what a horrible person she is.

Frankly, I would avoid any converstaion about her. Instead, focus on the two of you, your M, yoru family with the girls.
Best to be the bigger person in all of this.

I also would not suggest talking to him about the Harleys just yet. It is just too soon. Keep that knowledge to yourself for now.

Sorry - it takes me a while to respond, and it looks like we posted at the same time.
I really want to caution you - do NOT tell your WH that his OW is not even filing for D, even though her own BH has offered to pay. Your WH is going to figure this stuff out by himself, eventually. After all, he will start to realize that her D is not final, and he will wonder why.

Remember that your WH is folling the WH handbook. Chapter 18 of the handbook tells your WH that everything his OW says is golden. and you, and her BH, are only out to get revenge. The two of you have spoken recently, you are probably even sleeping together, and you have come up with this clever plan to "win" back your spouses. You will make huge promises, and when you finally get your way, and your WH moves back home, and gives up "his soul mate" then the other shoe will drop. Suddenly, you will launch an attack. You will kick your poor WH out on his rear, and then he will have no W, no family, an no OW.

Your WH is scared of EVERYTHING right now. He knows that he has a big can of whoop a$$ coming his way and is watching for it.

It is best to keep yoru mouth shut, and listen to what he has to say. Don't try to teach him, don;t try to save him, let him grow up on his own. I know that you wnat to save him - I have been there - but you can't fix this. If he doesn't wise up, become a man of honor, and start taking care of his family, then he will do this to you again.

I would suggest asking lots of questions like "WH, what are your plans with OW?" "Why are you in such a hurry for this D to be final?" "How will that make things any better for you?" "Has OW filed for D yet?, When will her D be final?"

You need to get him thinking about this stuff. If he tells you that "OW is trying to get a d but her H will not let her" You will KNOW what sort of lies she is telling. At least you will have planted a see do doubt in his mind.


remember - he sees OW as "needing to be saved" this is a common issue. She has made her own BH out to be the bad guy - a man so horrible that she HAD to elave him. So any, I mena ANY negative things yous ay about OW will only serve to further convince him that OW needs him to resuce her.

It is gross - and frankly, when your WH fianlly wakes up to the truth he will be disgusted with himself for believing her crap. But you can not make him see this. He has to do it for himself.

I think you are right, womanoffaith. I need to not discuss her at all. I really don't want to hear him defend her, knowing what I know about her, she can only hold up the facade for so long.

I sent him an email right after he called me this morning and this is what it said:

Even though I know I shouldn't, I was just thinking about you. Keep your chin up..... take a moment at a time and do the best you can in that moment. Do your best, and I promise, things will get better. Yup, I promised, so you know it has to happen. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Take care of yourself, WH, you are important.

BS

He called me just moments ago, obviously upset and said "thank you for the email" in a very soft voice. Then in the same voice said, please make sure I do what is right be DDs. That's all I want, is to do right by DDs.

I don't know how much is too much in regards of letting him lean on me and me holding him up a little bit. Isn't that Plan A...meeting emotional needs? This is one of his. do I let him fall over or let him lean?

I think I'm going to hold this other email regarding recovering back until tomorrow. I'll see how our conversation goes tonight and follow my gut then. I really feel I will need to send it....it's just the timing needs to be right so he is receptive.

I will tell WH that I've spoken with OWH, in the spirit of our honesty...but not go into detail. You're absolutely right, who knows what they have told each other about us. He'll be defensive about the fact that I've talked to him at all and probably won't be receptive to OWH comments.

And won't understand why I trust OWH more than I do WH and OW.

Thank you so much for responding. This dialog eases some of my internal conflict. And it hard to separate what I KNOW is best and what I FEEL I should do. The panic of feeling like I only have a certain window of time to get this done is a lot of pressure.

Fox,



What is right is to try and put the family back together. Not just for DDs, but for you an him as well. Tell him that D is not right. D should absolutely be the very last possible resort. He has not even tried to work things out. Tell him tonight over dinner (softly) that you DO NOT want this D to happen. You want to try again. Tell him what is in your heart. Postpone the hearing and give it more time. Tell him if it doesn’t work then you can have your divorce. But you can’t not try!

And listen closely to what he says. Do not offer information such as you talking to OW BH. If he asks about it then answer honestly, but don’t offer. And I also would not ask about OW at all. Keep her out of the conversation completely.. Do not even bring her up. This conversation it is about you, not her. You don’t’ want to discuss her involvement; (plenty of time for that later when your in recovery) you should be discussing you and you DDs. And after tonight you find he is not willing to move forward with saving your M…GO DARK! I mean it. Don’t wait for DDay, you will only hurt yourself by doing so. Don't forget that Plan B is to preserve any love you have left.

You know why he is so upset right now? He already told you. Read back through the beginning of this latest stitch. He sees you moving on. He sees a strong, wonderful, confident person and mother. And that is attractive! He admires how you have handled all of the crap and come out admirable. He really needs to get IC now. He needs guidance. Fox he is reaching out now. Are you there? Be there for him but be very clear about your boundaries.
This volcano is about to erupt. Don't forget he is very confused. Be prepared.

You are amazing! Don't for get that. Do not let him shake you anymore. If he does not want to try, then move forward without him. And tell him exactly that.

MB

Oh, MB,

You are right. That IS what is right for DDs. If anything the effort of a TRY is what they need, from both of us. Then if it doesn't work, it doesn't work and they at least know it was important enough for us to TRY. I lost that for a little while. Thank you for bringing me back to that.

I know he is reaching out, and Yes, I am here. But how do I do this is the question. How can I be here for him but move on at the same time? Even if he tells me right now that he doesn't want to try. I don't believe it. I am positive he does want to but is afraid to. But I can't MAKE him try or MAKE him put D off. Do I take his words as true and go dark or know that isn't really what he feels but what he thinks he has to say and continue Plan A?

Why is this so difficult?! Darn love anyhow!

Also, in regards to mentioning OW BH. I feel I need to say something, OW already knows and is withholding that from WH right now. If she tells him, I'm afraid he will view it as me lying to him. Any thoughts on that?

Fox,


Couldn't have said it better myself!

So that is the question isn't it? How to be there for him yet still move on. The answer is simple. You can't. Sorry, I know thats not what you want to hear. You have to make a choice. A choice that is right for YOU. If you think you have enough left inside to continue on, then stay in plan A. If you simply can't do it anymore then move to plan B. What ever plan you choose, choose it for you. Because its what YOU need.

A good plan A tonight right! Tell him tonight that you don't want a D. That you simply want another chance to put the family back together. Just prolong the Ddate. If it doesn't work then you can persue the D. Give him some time to think it over. (With a deadline of course...don't forget your boundaries) Let him leave and go where ever it is that he goes. Give him lots of space. But what ever your deadline is...10 minutes (heh heh)....tomorrow...this weekend...what ever you decide the boundry to be, you will need an answer. Once you get your answer you can decide how to move forward.

Your right, you can't MAKE him try or even MAKE him want to. But you can present the possiblity to him. He may be sooo lost that he doesn't believe the possibility even exists. Show him that it does exist. Then be very still. (Remember the lighthouse)

In the event he decides he does not want to persue the possiblity of a reconciliation, have your plan B letter ready. Post it here you want help, but be prepared.

MB
*******************************************************************************
You got to be careful if you don't know where you're going, because you might not get there.
*******************************************************************************

I think for me, I need to stay in Plan A. I need to be here for him, this may actually be the best chance. I hear she is not understanding and not someone that can be leaned on. And the fact that he is not sharing this pain with her (so he says). I think he needs to see that he can lean on me, at least for now. This may be the point that he sees her for what she is and me for what I am.

Good work! I'm sure that was a very hard decision. Plan A as long as possible. My only advise...do not talk about OW and do tell him you still don't want the D. Just be the best person you can. Support him and spend as much time with him and the kids as you can. Plant a seed to have him over as regularly as possible. That is sure to throw a wrench in affair land.
I hope things go really well for you tonight! No LBs. I will be thinking about you. Send an update tomorrow.

MB

An added advantage right now is that WH is going to be spending alot of time with DDs. They are spending the night at his house tomorrow night (OW will be out of town which I have verified and will do a drive by to make sure). Then I am going out of town on Friday not to return until Sunday, WH will have them then also. Although they will not be spending any time at WH/OW house. I have offered to have him stay at OUR house but he says that is just too difficult. I will offer it again tonight. His plan is to have DDs stay the night at MIL house and he will go back to his house to spend the night. If he can't/won't stay at our house, I wish he would at least spend the night at MIL with DDs...and maybe it will come to that. Maybe he won't want to let them go for a moment. He has said that is why he hasn't taken them to MIL on "his" time, he doesn't want to share them....he wants them all to himself when he has the small opportunity to see them.

Could really reinforce what he will be missing. With the added mystery of where I am.....he knows I am going out of town but doesn't know where or who with.....

I will tell him that I do not want D. And at the beginning of the custoday/visitation discussion point out what is ultimately best for DDs....our family happy.

Thank you for thinking of me. I will update ASAP in the morning.

foxnhound...

If your husband spends any time at your house while you are away...
I want you do a couple of small things...

print out some research on support groups...parents without partners...and some sites on the effects of divorce on children...

leave it somewhere he would find them...

clear your history and cookies...(weaver would be so proud of me giving any type of computer advice....) usually my seven year old does that for me....

you don't want him finding 'you" on marriage builders

also print out some stuff on vacation sites..either places you have gone together....or somewhere new you have talked about going ...

again just somewhere out where he can find them...

drag out some old bags from 'fun' stores..
bath and body...
etc...
leave them out as if you bought "new" things for this trip....

also throw some old pictures of family stuff out somewhere....of you all together not sappy ones..but old holidays...first birthdays....stuff you can't get back etc...

ARK^^

All good suggestions, ark. I will see what I can do to lay the "scene" <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Maybe a pretty bra and underwear that he has never seen on my bed? I changed rooms after he left so it is really my own and nothing that we shared, except for the furniture. I do have our wedding album on a shelf and a welcome sign that my sister had made for us that had both our names on it.

Our talk last night went pretty well. I got there first and got a table and ordered some hot chocolate. WH got there 10 minutes later (he had already told me earlier to not worry, it would take him a couple of minutes to get across town but he would be there) He took his jacket off and apologized for not dressing up for me. Since when is he worried about what he looks like to me? I told him that I didn't care what he was dressed in, it was the fact that he was there making the effort. He said he wanted to dress better because it was respectful to me. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> Baby steps, I guess. What that says to me is he woke up that morning, thinking about what he should wear to meet me that night.....while he was with her. hmmmmmm.......

It went essentially the same as the Saturday talk went, begin talking about DDs and spend a small amount of time on them and then it turned into us again. I think we have a pretty good interim plan worked out. I started that part of the conversation with asking what is best for DDs, in a perfect world, with none of our current bs. He looked me in the eyes and said "us, together". And he didn't immediately say "but that is never going to happen". I see that as a huge step, just the fact that he viewed it from their side and knew what the best for them was. I didn't dwell on it, just kind of did a drive-by. I really feel he has to come to this on his own, I cannot lead him. HE has to do it or it doesn't really mean anything. Just something he was railroaded into.

We talked for hours about our marriage and certain instances where we each were hurt and didn't go to the other. Just stayed stubborn and how those resentments built up. I was afraid to go into all that, I feel those things are him justifying his actions. I made sure to bring it back around that the effort to do something about those things was never there. He took the easy way out.

I did end up talking to him about OW treatment of her BH sons. He, like I expected, was a bit defensive and said don't you think that maybe OW BH says things like that because he is a man scorned? I said that I had considered that but OW BH has never said anything bad about her, he loves her. All I wanted to do was plant the seed..... now when OW says or does something re: DDs, maybe he will see any red flags.

....and now he has called me three times this morning and it is only 9:00.

He also admitted that he had trouble trusting me. Not because of what I had done in the past or present, but because of what he has done and what he thinks I may do for payback.

I did tell him that I would reconcile and believed we could have a better marriage and have a happy combined family. He didn't immediately toss it aside, but he didn't jump on it either. I told him through a fountain of tears that I could find a way to forgive and get through this. I wasn't completely there yet because the pain was still so great and he was still making the same choice, but that with work and communication and effort on both our parts I knew it could happen. We just had to chose to do that and then make it happen. He also had tears in his eyes and just kind of nodded at me, accepting what I said. Again, didn't jump on it but also didn't immediately shut me down.

But then it circled around again of how to integrate OW into DDs lives. We talked a bit about that, how it is so confusing to me to talk about things so separately and feel something in one part of the conversation and than go to something else that to me is related and to him is totally something separate. He says he keeps OW and I totally seperate. What he does with me and says to me is not part of "their" lives. It is seperate. And vice versa...she doesn't share with him what is going on between her BH and her. To me, everything is related and effects everything else. To him, it does not. He only takes one piece at a time.

I hope this makes sense to you all. I don't think I've conveyed it very clearly. I'm so tired and I'm not thinking clearly right now.

He wants to get together again. He is typing up the long term plan, I am typing up the interim plan and than we will meet to go over again. I told him we could just email it to each other, but he didn't want to do that. "I want to see your face and know what you are feeling, I can read you better in person". I don't know if I want to be "read" by him anymore. But it goes the other way, I want to see him too and get his reaction first-hand.

I think there was more but I can't find it in my head right now.

It doesn't help that I had dreams about him last night....all of us as a happy family...the knowledge of the A was still between us, but we had worked through it.

Another day down, another one to come......

Another thing he said was he was so confused by the fact that he knows he doesn't want to be married to me any more but doesn't understand why he still cares so much.

oh....I had written WH a couple of 10 pages letters at the very beginning of all of this. They were pretty desperate and pathetic but truly heartfelt. WH said last night that he kept those...and he reads and rereads them. I thought they would have been immediately thrown away, shredded, burned, whatever. But I guess not.

oh....I had written WH a couple of 10 page letters at the very beginning of all of this. They were pretty desperate and pathetic but truly heartfelt. WH said last night that he kept those...and he reads and rereads them. I thought they would have been immediately thrown away, shredded, burned, whatever. But I guess not.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />


Oh yeah...I'm leaving here to go back to OW and how are we going to go about getting the girls into my life?.....a little bit of sarcasm in my thoughts after all this back and forth stuff.

He flip flops so much in all of this. I wish he would just pick one...either flip or flop but not both!

Slowly finding my footing again. I do know in the end no matter what WH wants, my life is mine and I can only control me. (I'll keep saying it and maybe it will sink in)

foxnhound...

I think you should deny your husband a little of the access he is requesting...

there is strong urge and pull in active WS to create this to be the norm...
to NOT be the bad guy

don't play in to this too much...

agree to meet then cancel last minute with "some other engagement..."

let the MAN stew and sit for a while with his actions...

otherwise you are becoming the OW

cake-eater that he is soo desperately trying to be...


he is saying some very cruel and unrealistic things...but they come out so calm and sugar coated that they aren't impacting you like they should...

be very very very wary of your own betrayed spouse fog...
it is a key drive of a WS to insidiously make this all normal and natural....

and the more you are submersed in it the more "normal' the abnormal will become..

ARK

ark, I agree. I do feel like I'm becoming the OW. But I'm having a hard time figuring out what is the best step. I don't think it would be good for me to agree to meet and then cancel. I don't do that with anyone, out of respect for their own schedule. If I agree to do something then I do it. And I'm afraid that with all the distrust he says he has for me, that he would view that as me letting him down. (okay, I think I see what you mean with the BS fog!)

I really think he is trying to be a cake-eater. He said it himself that maybe he thinks that is what he is doing. But I also see them falling apart and OW may just shove him off the fence onto my side. But do I want him when he only came to me because OW no longer wanted him? This hasn't happened yet but I see it heading that way. Or do I let him continue to see me for who I am and her for who she is and allow him to make that decision on his own. If I start limiting access than how can he see that I have changed also. One of the biggest things that needs to change is both of our willingness to talk about uncomfortable things and not just sweep them under the rug or keep them in because we don't want to hurt the other person, at the cost of ourselves and our feelings for that other person. How can he see this major change if I don't meet with him and have that one-on-one interaction?

Please advise me on this, I understand the advantages of lessening contact so he has to deal with the reality but I don't know how to get him to see the changes in me from a distance.

The things he says are incredibly hurtful and are impacting me. But I'm trying really hard to deal with them as they come and put my initial instinct to react to it aside and only act in a beneficial way. But, you're right, it does make some of it "normal" when it is not.

I was initially going to say that I didn't react to him regarding some of the things he says because then he doeesn't want to deal with me at all. He feels this is the way it is going to be and we have to work together to make the best of a bad situation.....and then I thought, "that is exactly what BS fog is". Because he has decided to do this, everyone else has to adjust and accept and then work together. That is not right. But what do I do about it now?

Distance....again, I think distance is the key. I have to do some of this because of the impending divorce. But I don't have to meet him face-to-face. I could make it into a business transaction kind of....I've told him the possibility of reconciliation is there and I've eased his fear about seeing DDs. That's all right now, I'll give him space to think on his own now. OW will have to ease his guilt about the rest of it, if she can.

And he did say last night that he didn't want me to think badly of him or hate him and think he was a monster. H isn't, but WH is. But I don't know which one I am talking to sometimes....

We also discussed the fact the I won't be his friend. I can't accept just a piece of him...it's all or nothing with me. He then mentioned my email where I said that a friend wouldn't treat me this way....that is where H went away and WH returned although looking ashamed and said he didn't feel like he did this to that friend, that he did this to his spouse. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> I said that we are all rolled into one. Didn't really get anywhere on that part of the discussion other than to reiterate that I can't be his friend. When things are finalized, I'm done.

That's what makes some of this so confusing and difficult too. Everyone else has accepted and it has become normal. I am the only one in my life (other than DDs) that sees this as abnormal.

That is why I come here. I know it is not normal but when the environment around you looks like it is, it's hard to stay true to yourself and what you believe. I start doubting myself sometimes. You all keep me grounded and strong. I thank you.

I think you guys are meeting WAAAAAY too much for the SAME reason. Have your WH draw up plans to see his daughters NOW, without OW involved; one step at a time. If you are going to get a LEGAL separation agreement, then you can discuss more concretely how things will happen.

I see the both of you desperate to have it both ways, he wants to cake eat, and you are willing to take morsels, crumbs, just so you can 'read' him. Don't make excuses to do what is not healthy.

He will not respect that if you continue. He will USE you up that way. Don't allow it. I did that and it only made matters worse, his level of respect for me was nil by the time he returned home, as well as my own self-respect.

I'm not saying that you should see him, but limit that time some.

Also, your WH is keeping secrets from his OW, and is probably doing the same with you by 'separating' out the two relationships. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> He's snowing you, okay. He's WAYWARD; he is not your H, not as you know him; he may mean some of what he says, but be careful, don't take stock in ANYTHING he says right now. And that whole statement about not trusting you, well, that's his own doing, not for you to reconcile with a WS. Most of what he said was about him, not YOU or OW, but his own selfishness. Try to filter what isn't real; feelings are temporary, but commitment, love are choices and are not temp. He's doing neither.

Plan A does not mean that you ignore reality, watch out for those patches of fog that exist in your own mind. They will ALLOW you to make some bad decisions; just sync up your heart and mind on all IMPORTANT decisions. If you don't want you children in OW's life prior to D, then state that and stick to it like glue...

fox...just catching up on the last few pages of your thread...



...that is why there is a timeframe for PLAN A...and if WS wants to continue to cake-eat.....BS needs to move on to PLAN B....

...make it clear every chance you get, without going into a major discussion, that this is not what you want, that his choices are very hurtful to you and his family...that if he is prepared to recommitt to M and family, by learning the needed skills you can make it a better M, but that it is not your intention to remain 'friends' and tolerate the situation once the nuts and bolts re children has been hammered out....

...otherwise...you will be contributing to his cake-eating....by not allow WS to 'live' the consequences of his choices: not seeing you, having no discussions with you, not being able to count on you, not having an intact family, etc.

...but don't be surprised if you will need to go DARK, PLAN B, for WS to get a real sense of the consequences of his actions/choices.

Just as a reality check.....it has been 2 yrs from D-day for me...and 1 1\2 yrs I am into PLAN B (since about when WS moved out)....and WS is just now starting to take me seriously....that I will not be any kind of relationship with him, friendly co-parenting or other, as long as A continues... WS always thought that with time..I would come 'around'....after 2 yrs...some of the WS fog is wearing thin.....he's introducing OW to friends and family... and the more he does that....the more the 'loss' of his family is evident... and the 'grapevine' says...WS is hurting... because like all WS.....he wanted to cake-eat..... wanted OW and wanted to keep me in his life.....having to raise 2 boys together thought would be a guarantee... NOT so.....I discovered MB board....

...and PLAN B is a life-saver for me.... it is sending the exact message I want to send to WS.... I will not be part of a triangle... if you want me to be part of your life, N/C with OW and recommittment to me and family is necessary.....

Fox.... patience will be needed... in my case... 2 yrs so far... and WS is just starting to feel the consequences of his choices.... before that....laland and selfishness didn't allow him to see it..... it's a process... to get into fogland and to come out of it....

That's why....please take care of yourself....it's a long road...either way....

I don't suggest any R talk with a WS....it will be a waste of time and on top of it...very confusing.... a WS changes 'tune' as needed, and BS goes crazy trying to make sense of it...I did!

Use the bla bla bla bla filter.... anything other than what concerns financial or children arrangements should be heard as bla bla bla bla bla...because as long as A is on..... a WS will only attempt, in any way he can, to get BS on board with his thinking..... which is exactly what you call it: BS fog!

have you read orchids post on babbling back..

you need a crash course..

he says...

he didn't want me to think badly of him
you say back

well I certainly don't feel good about your painful actions

he babbles
or hate him

you babble back..

oh no dear that would take too much of my energy to waste on hating you...


he says
and think he was a monster

you say
oh no I don't think you are monster I think you are someone very lost from the truth and decency and Gods light


DO NOT console conjole or coddle his nonsense...

I would have busted out laughing when he tried to say the OW husband was a scorned man....
AS IF!!!!!!!!!!!

I would have babbled back...

yes dear you are responsible for his pain and upset do you feel no regret for hurting an innocent man!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

part of seeing your positive changes is NOT seeing you and having access

let him stew
let him wonder where and what you are doing....

the thing I find so insidiously creul about affairs is the lack of knowledge to make informed life decisions for the BS...
as the WS and OP know of EVERY move of the spouse while they move under secrecy and cover.....

evil it is..

let him FEEL it...
not hear from your lips
not see it in your face
not hear in your spoken pain..

let him EXPERIENCE it
FEEL it
LIVE it


it is of his creation...
he needs to taste the bitter medicine that he feeds others to serve his selfish acts...

ARK

....geesh....ark^^....you're getting pretty good at 'reverse babble'... Orchid would be proud of you!

It's the only thing I regret not doing before going into PLAN B...because WS certainly made enough 'silly' comments... I could have had a field day with it....

so....fox...do take advantage of doing it while you can ...in fact...Orchid would suggest practicing in front of the mirror... as in 'practice makes perfect'!

Yes, yes, and more yes. You all have such valid points.



Yes, I am desperate to hear those things from him and am looking for any crumb he will give me. And I don't like it. It has been so long since he has talked to me at all and I have had a hard time reaching the "why" of everything. But I also know what he says is justification. It does not explain why he is unwilling right now to do something about it. It's the same thing "I just don't have those feelings for you and I don't think they will come back".

I am backing off and taking a firm stand. I got as much as I'm ever going to get with these discussions and it is just rehashing everything over and over again. I am making a commitment to myself to shut down any further R talk without him first saying he is willing to work on the M. Nothing else matters, the whys, the hows, the whos, etc mean nothing without a commitment to do something about it.

Yes, reverse babble. I hadn't hardly been talking to him so I didn't read up on it. Now I will. The comment about OW H and WH responsbility for that was perfect. Although I don't think WH thinks he has responsibility...OW made that choice and WH wasn't involved in it. blah blah blah

I come away from these discussions absolutely used up, worn out, and exhausted. Not just right afterwards but DAYS afterward. My mind starts working overtime again and analyzes everthing and tries to work out my next move, etc. I have to stop that. It isn't good for me and it isn't good for DDs.

Thank you all for chiming in!

WH just left...he came to my office to pick up DDs bags as they are staying the night with him tonight. (OW out of town---trusting but verifying). The problem is, he showed up in OW jeep. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

DDs don't seem to mind. DD13 actually loves the jeep and wants one for herself. It is just hurtful to me. I know for a fact that both of WH trucks broke down, but he could have borrowed one of the shop trucks from work. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

Just my own frustrations, I guess. DDs are going to be staying overnight at OW/WH house tonight (for the first time)...what does it matter if they rode in her jeep? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

I'm so sorry that you are angry and hurting; part of the reason I entered Plan B was that I was losing my mind over the pain I was allowing into my life through WH's actions. I'm sure that the children's first ON at OW's home is not helping you much either. There is a lot to deal with there.

The fact that you KNOW so much about your WH right now is probably not helping. I found it very difficult to detach from my WH until Plan B, because I was always so desperate INSIDE, no matter what I conveyed OUTSIDE myself. I think you may need to consider plan B after you get the visitation ironed out, BUT, make a plan first, make sure you have goals. You will experience your own withdrawal, and the yearning for contact comes on a little strong at first, but your head will clear up, and you will be able to think more clearly.

As long as you are in Plan A, do not show this anger, resentment, sadness to your WH, come here to vent that and get support, so that when/if you enter Plan B, his remaining thoughts of you will be good ones. Hang on....this is gonna be a bumpy ride.

it does matter if they ride in her jeep - because it is a slow movement towards getting to know her. "Remember when Daddy told you he has a new friend? This is her jeep"
it sucks. big time.

I am not saying that you can stop him from using her jeep to pick up the girls - there is very little you can do about it anyway. I am just saying that it is ok for you to be upset - you should be!

You need to get mad sometimes. It helps you to quit looking at this whole situation as being somehow normal.

In fact - look at your last line



see what I mean? You all ready had yourself convinced that it was no big deal.
And I can just imagine what her BH would have felt, if he could see your WH and girls riding in the jeep that he helped to purchase for his wife. (Now - don't go calling him up and telling him!)

you see - this could actually be good timing for you. you were allowing yourself to slowly slide back into the mode of "I don't want to do anything, or say anything, that might upset him. I want to continue to take his little crumbs of attention, until OW finally dumps him, and then I will sweep in and comfort him"

It is so hard to find that fine line between being a door mat, and being the light house. Especially when he has been giving you some pretty big signals that all is not well with his A. But you need to remember that you are a valuable woman. You are worthy to be loved, and adored, and treated well. You do not need to accept scraps from anyone. Your self esteem took a huge hit when he left. it takes a long time to work that back up. But you need to get your self respect back.

It is good to fight for your M. To be available on that day when your H finally wakes up and realizes he doesn't want to lose the best thing that ever happened to him - you. But you do not want to give up yourself in the process. You do no want to turn into the type of wife who agrees with everything her H says just to keep him from leaving. You do not want him to lose all respect for you. you never want to hear him say "you better do what I say or I will just leave again" If you have to give up yourself for this R, then the price is too high.

that is why I say you need to decide what you want. Who you are. What is important to you. And then when he says something like "how are we going to slowly make OW a part of the girls lives" You can say "I am here to talk about how to build a better M with you, so that our girls do not have to bring another woman into their lives"

I am going to bring up the plan B subject once again - hopefully to get some dialog from some of the others here. I am no plan B expert - by far. But I keep hearing an alarm go off in my mind when you say that you are waiting until after the D to start plan B - and then you say after the D you will no longer have a relatiosnhip with him at all.

what would be the purpose of doing a plan B after the D? Are you trying to reconcile your M afterwards, and perhaps get re-married? Or are you thinking that it would plan B for the rest of your lives because he divorced you?
Don't you see a benefit in doing plan B before a D goes through, so that he knows exactly what to expect after the D? So he has one last chance to say "wait a minute! I don;t want this! I don't want to lose my W". If you wait until after the D is final - then it is too late for him to change his mind...

I know that you are scared - and cautious. you do not want to upset him - you want to keep things cool in case he wants to come back. But meanwhile, as you are calmly allowing him to continue his bad behavior, you are coming ever closer to a D.

I guess what it comes down to is this - if you Plan to do a plan B after the D is final, what do you hope to accomplish with it?

Just something more to think about it...

Jennifer told me that the reason for plan B was to allow the WS to see what D would be like in the hopes of saving your marraige

Orchid: You are worth sooo much more than crumbs. REMEMBER that when he throws them your way. I asked my to put a $$ value on his family. Of course even in his fogged mind he knew he couldn't but I pressured him to. He said we were priceless. I scoffed at him because he sure wasn't treatin g us that way and he knew it. So, I started at $1mil. when he couldn't afford that payoff....I lowered it down to $750k, 500k...big jumps until I hit that magic # $87k. Why that #? Because that is the amount the OW refied her house for that year. LOL!!! I did my homework. LOL!! I stopped at that number and he looked puzzled. I babbled a few numbers of stuff he owed and projected amounts owed and it came pretty close. Then I rounded it up to $87K. I showed my disappointment and reminded him 'us priceless' people don't like to be sold out for less than $1mil. I them told the WS he was selling us up the river and he had to live with that choice. Boy did he hate that heavy guilt trip. I said it very nicely but firmly. I made my point. Whenever he gave he lip, I reminded him it was he who said his family was priceless. It sure made it more difficult for him to get testy with me. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

So don't be desparate for his attention. U R better than that. Let him yearn for you because he DOESN'T know what u r up to. Go read Ark's post again.


Orchid: This is good but hard t/d. How are you backing off? What is your plan and who will be helping you stick to it? This is why I say to identify your personal boundaries. Once your mind and heart sync up..... you will be difficult for the WS to use and abuse. Instead you w/b able to reverse babble the guilt back to the WS and do it with a smile. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />


Orchid: Reverse babble. Not an MB suggestion but many of us have found it helpful. Maybe Dr. Harley approaches it from a different angle but if you listen to his message, he doesn't condone beind a doormat either. So he may not call it reverse babble but MHO is that he is aware it can be a useful tool.


Orchid: That is why plan B is a safer place t/b. You will get there. Soon the WS will irriate and bore you. After the exposure really what else is there?

The way I see it, the OW and WS's A is already falling apert. The WS is desparately trying to antagonize, patronize your into enabling the A for them. Did you know that? Does that infuriate you? Hope so. Now let's channel that anger in a constructive manner....u game? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />


take care,
L.

I would suggest you get or keep your digital camera with you at ALL times.... when he arrives or pick up the kids take pictures, ESPECIALLY in other person's vehicle.... your not divorced yet so it can be used to build the case of what he was doing.

DO NOT TELL WHY you take so many pictures, let him figure it out... because a WS mind creates more scenario's that you could possibly imagine, first he will get nervous using her vehicle because he knows your going to use it against him, then it puts into the Waywards mind you have a plan and acting on it, third and this is big.... he starts thinking what else? Is there a PI following him, is there a microphone in his lunch box, he will start worrying about the time he is with OW - even though your not around you put something in his alien head that is buzzing around.

Stake the offensive not the defensive

Okay, my Plan B date is 01/15/07. This coming Monday, when he brings DDs home that night, I will hand him the letter (to be posted later today). One of the reasons I was so reluctant to go to Plan B prior to the D is the risk of appearing un-cooperative to a judge. And I will admit I feel so desperate for ANY attention from WH. I saw a quote on someone else's thread saying that conflict was better than withdrawal. I think we are back in conflict and my thought was if I went to Plan B, we would be back in withdrawal.

I will respond to all your comments soon...I have to get some work done.

Thank you all. Sometimes that little nudge and reminder of support is all it takes to give me a little more strength and resolve.

It absolutely matters to me that they ride in OW jeep. It REALLY bugs me and you nailed it on the head. It takes them one step closer to getting to know her. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> But I also know I don't have control over what vehicle they drive when they are with WH. I do not believe it is normal but have no control. I'm doing the best I can to control the anger so I act and don't react. Sometimes, I think that is a mistakes, when I'm angry I should show it...otherwise it looks like it doesn't matter to me.

Oh.... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> OW BH knows they ride in OW jeep. She traded off the vehicle they purchased together and bought this new jeep wrangler - which is a vehicle my WH had been eyeing for a while.



This part is more difficult than it appears. I would like to just stonewall and repeat the phrase that I am here to talk about rebuilding the marriage but I'm quickly running out of time and negotiations between WH and I for custody/visitation has to be worked out or the judge will do it for us. But I recognize I need to find a way to do that or it does appear like I am accepting that it is normal for your kids to meet your cheating partner. AND IT IS NOT!



I believe that Plan B is to get WH to see how divorce will be so he has the chance to change his mind. However, I feel like I am in such a short time frame and constricted by what a judge will think if I am un-cooperative on custody issues. It doesn't appear to put the children first when you won't even allow the other parent to contact you. That is the risk I am most afraid of....that I will get less time with DDs if I don't attempt to come to a common ground regarding them with WH. My thoughts regarding the M if I do the PBL after D is that it COULD be recovered afterwards and then remarriage, etc. That isn't what I want....I would rather he come to his senses and have that chance before D, but that isn't the only way it could happen.

I think we can iron all custody etc out by Monday so I can go into Plan B. Now that WH is speaking to me. How a judge will view it also depends alot on how the PBL is worded.

I feel like I've been pretty wishy/washy with this Plan B thing. One day I think that is what is best for me and then the next I think it would be best for me to stay in Plan A. I don't like to treat H/WH poorly and it hurts me to see him hurt. And I know this will hurt him.

I'm coming to the realization (on a more consistant basis) that distance (Plan B) from him is best for ME in the long run....but is it best for DDs? That is the ultimate question. What if I Plan B and it drastically fails and WH is an emotional wreck all the time....DDs still have to deal with that, even if I don't.



Yeah, like I need something more to think about! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Somehow, I have to figure out how to STOP thinking about some things.

My first step in backing off is not being so directly accessible....not answering the phone immediately when I see on caller id that it is him...let him leave a message and I will get back to him...and not meeting face-to-face anymore for custody issues. We both have our "assignments". I am writing up the interim plan and he is writing up the long term plan. Both were discussed during our last get togethers and now we are typing them up for the others final approval. I can also have someone else answer the phone at work when I know it is him and tell him I am not there...and then return is call later if I feel it is necessary. There is no where right now that he does not get direct access to me. What he has also started doing is calling one of DDs on their cell phones (because he shut mine off), talks to them for a little while, and then says "can I talk to your mom" Again, direct access, he knows where we are and what we are doing ALWAYS. Which he has a certain right to with DDs but I'm right in there with them so he always knows what I am doing too.



He!! yeah, I'm game. Let's do it! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Dear Ms Fox- I keep up with your situation and am pleasantly surprised at the turn of events with WH. I just wanted to say that I think your Plan B timing is perfect, because the last interactions he's had with you show he is in turmoil and you have handled them so well- loving and kind and no LB's. He obviously is conflicted- he needs to see what it will be like when you D. No fantasy of being friends or "Co-parenting." Whatever.

No judge would think you're being uncooperative as long as the transfer of DD's goes all right. Nothing says you have to be around him.

Good luck!

Revised Plan B letter....please help me refine. Thank you

Dear WS,

I regret that we find ourselves in the situation we’re in. I never imagined this would happen to us.

I still believe we can have a happy, loving, fulfilling marriage. I believe we can learn from our mistakes, grow from them and with effort and desire we can begin to slowly rebuild the love that was the foundation of our marriage and start to become a family again, for our sake and our daughters’. I believe we can have a marriage based on trust and honesty where we both feel safe sharing our innermost thoughts, feelings, fears and dreams. The kind of marriage we both imagined when we said “I do”. I’m not naïve, I know there’s been a lot of damage done. It won’t be easy but it can be done.

I’ve suffered tremendous pain from seeing our marriage fall apart, learning about your relationship with OW and dealing with impending divorce, but I never stopped loving you and I never forgot what a wonderful person you are and how much joy you brought me. That gave me strength and hope to go on. But the pain has become too much to bear.

I do not want this divorce. I want to be your wife, in every sense of the word. I want to hold you, talk with you, laugh and cry with you, comfort you, share the joy of raising a family with you. As much as I want this, you have made it clear that you don’t, and as long as you feel this way, I cannot be a part of your life except as the mother of your daughters, it is simply too painful. Therefore, I must ask you not to contact me except for emergencies regarding DD13 and DD12. This is something I believe is necessary to preserve and protect the love I still have for you before it slips away. If you need to vary your visitation schedule, call my mother and give her the information and she will get it to me.

As always, I will continue to be the best mother I can be and do whatever is necessary to insure our daughters’ happiness and make their lives as fulfilling as possible.

If, down the road, you have a change of heart and decide you want to give our marriage a chance, I am open to discussing it with you and working out a plan to restore our marriage and make it what we only dreamed it could be. For me to even consider reconciliation with you, you have to completely remove OW from your life, be willing to go to marriage/individual counseling with me to work on our marriage and to take whatever actions are needed to help us both recover from this and work on things. I can no longer permit you to be a part of my life without this commitment. It is all or nothing. No marriage, no friendship, nothing except minimal contact between us needed to take care of our children. Other than that, there is nothing further for you and I to discuss until you’ve taken these steps to repair our relationship. I still love you, and as I said before, I believe in our marriage and I am willing to do whatever is necessary, but until you are also willing, please respect my wishes.

All my love,
BS

Any suggestions on PBL?

I am no expert - but it sounds good to me.
I didn't see anything that I would change.

Fox,

My suggestion isn't totally MB like but when you put the family against the WS, your case as a BS is stronger. So instead of I, change it to 'the family', children and I, etc.

Show a unified front.

The plan you outlined about NOT being available is good. He needs to yearn for the reason why he misses his family. The WS must die for your H to live.

As to further suggestions, beside what you have planned, include your support group. Learn to babble back and NOT take his guilt.

You can use his own words against him. For example:

WS: I don't want to hurt you, that's why I want you to get the D started.

BS: Yea, I don't want t/b hurt either, so you stop having an A and stop hurting our family.



WS: Here's $50.00. Can I borrow 200.00?

BS: Give me 500.00 and I'll think about it.



WS: Don't you love me?

BS: Not sure, let me get back to you on that.

Make him stew, make him wonder. The more time he spends thinking about his family (that yearning thing), the less time the A will have.

For you to go to plan B, your mind and heart must be in sync. Episodes like what you experienced will be handled a more straight forward. A good BS will bury the WS and let their real spouse emerege. Of course this is if the WS is already in that dying state. It is ok to help the WS cease existing and let your real spouse come home. With improvements of course.

So don't be too available for your H. Hard to do initially. .... then it gets easier. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

take care,
L.

Fox,

I think you did an exallent job on you PBL! Your boundaries are very clear. The only thing I would consider changing is:
You need a stronger boundry here, don't ask him... tell him: Therefore, I will no longer have any contact with you except for emergencies regarding DDs.

I am so proud of you for taking a stand! You will have to be very very strong. Remeber when he came to pick up the girls bags for the overnight? You saw him in the OW jeep? Hurt didn't it? Well this plan is to ensure you do not see these things moving forward. If you had not seen it, you would not have been hurt because you would not have known. You do not need to know anymore details than you already do about WH and OW. Way to painful!

Keep posting please and take very good care of YOU! This is your time now! From here on out it is all about the healing.

MB

***********************************************
"Do-so" is more important than "say-so."
***********************************************

Fox,

You are picking very good timing on Plan B! The PBL sounds good, and as Orchid says, just be sure your WH understands that the 'FAMILY' is on the same page...

I think that you are amazing, you've done such a good job holding to Plan A, showing compassion, and love. Please keep us updated. And don't worry about your story being 'boring', as I've seen you post in the past, it's important that you know that you have people here to talk to. Plan B is very quiet, and your thoughts can run wild, so be sure to post those here, don't try to contact your WH, come here, tell us, let us talk you down...

Hi Fox,

Your PBL sounds good... and I would agree with the others... if you are up to it, PLAN B is the way to go to allow WS to 'live' the consequences of his choices... no YOU.... no FAMILY.... his choice!

Please remember....expect YOU and WS to both want to find 'excuses' to talk to each other.....NOT GOOD! ....for WS to take your boundaries seriously....you MUST not succumb to the 'temptation'..... EXPECT it to be difficult.... you will have to figure out how to 'keep busy'!

...remember to come here, instead....we will help you to let the 'momemt' pass....

thinking of you this weekend!

foxnhound1 ,

How did you make out with PBL? Just thinking about you and want to make sure you are doing OK.

MB

me, too....

How are you doing fox?

Things can sure change in a couple of days. I need more advice on what to do about the Plan B letter. My initial plan was to give it to WH tonight after his visit with DDs was over. But.....now he is giving me grief about getting them back.

However, things have changed a great deal. WH lost is mind over the weekend and has accused me of messing around with OW H. I had already told him that OW H and I have talked. He has blown everything out of proportion. And it all honesty, it probably didn't look good. OW H and I went to a rodeo together on Saturday....as friends and absolutely nothing else. WH found out and showed up and made a HUGE scene.....how can you bring your married girlfriend that you have been living with for months to confront your wife that you think is seeing someone? I don't know how that makes sense in his mind....but he came absolutely unglued and said some insanely nasty things. There is a whole long story with this that I will have to relay to you later when I have more time.

But the main thing right now is DDs. I was supposed to pick them up yesterday afternoon and then WH was going to pick them up from me this morning since they don't have school and he had taken the day off to spend it with them. When he was spewing venom on Saturday night he said I could have them Tuesday after school. I talked to DDs last night, who know nothing of what happened, and they sounded good, WH had movies and they were having a good time (at Grandma's where they are spending the nights). I told them if they wanted to they could stay one last night. Then I talked to WH and told them the girls wanted to stay again and was that ok with him...I was trying to turn it around and take the power away from him...it wasn't his decisions to keep DDs another night, it was my decision to offer to him. However, tonight is a different story...tomorrow is a school day and they WILL be home tonight. I have a call into my lawyer to see what I can do.

OK, I'm ready for the 2x4 about OW H. I know, I know, I know. But it was nice to go watch a darn rodeo with no "relationship" pressure.

WH told DDs that he had a meeting on Saturday night...that is when he came to jump my case. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

Anyway, after this...what to do about the Plan B letter? Does it even apply anymore. He said some very interesting things in between all the accusations and nasty talk. Like how "as of today, I feel nothing for you, I'm done". Wasn't he "done" before? He must have said that at least 7 times. And I have to admit, I lost my temper too, but did not call names or accuse or say nasty things to him. I did egg him on a couple of times when he stepped to me aggressively....but he had brought a buddy to hold him back. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> I encouraged him to hit me and I think he was close a couple of times. I really think he feels betrayed, lied to, cheated on, etc. Why does he think he has the right to those feelings....aside from the fact that it just isn't true, can't he look at what he has done? Where does he feel he even has the right to accuse? I really think WH is losing his mind. What I saw in his eyes was just insanity.

Anyway, I met OW. Yuck, is all I can say about her. She has known for a couple of weeks that I was going with her BH to this rodeo. She held that information until the first weekend WH has his girls and isn't spending time with her. I KNOW WH didn't know until Saturday, why did she wait so long to tell him? To ruin his weekend with his DDs, to turn him on me? WTF?

He also said he didn't think I knew what I was getting into with OW H and that being friends is how it starts...threw a fit about me bringing OW H into DDs lives...which is soooo far from the truth. Just his insane mind blowing everything up to justify his own actions.

So again, does Plan B letter still apply?

I think I'm on such an adreniline rush still...I don't think my post made a whole lost of sense. I'll lay it out better later...but you've got the gist of what happened.

I would continue with the Plan B letter.

Did he bring OW along to confront you? YIKES!!!!!!!

It was probably not a good idea to go to the rodeo, but you can't take it back now. OW's husband and I remain good friends after 3 and a half years of this.

Give us more details. This is just too DELICIOUS.

Yup, I think Plan B letter is still a go. I've thought more about what a judge might think of it. But I think it's worded okay. I've made the suggest change and think it looks pretty good.

It is DELICIOUS! I probably shouldn't say so...but it was FUN! I sooooo needed that.

And yes, he brought her.....he was coming with or without her so she came along. To protect her H, maybe? I know it wasn't for me. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I'll do a full blow-by-blow this afternoon.

she is trying to manipulate both your WH and her BH. I wonder how the convesation went with the two of them aftwards.

I know what you mean by feeling good. But of course you need to be careful. You are very vulnerable now.

About 2 years into my WH's affair, I met up with a family friend at a benefit. He had always told me my WH was crazy to leave me. Anyway, he was so concerned and thoughtful, and it felt so good after 2 years of nothing, that I jumped into the sack with him. BIG mistake.

But we absolutely MUST have more details about OW. Your WH is now probably thinking OM's husband is after YOU. LOL, sorry, I'm not feeling very MB like reading your thread. I think other BS's can relate.

Hi Fox,

....I agree with B.....probably not a good idea to go out with OWH... as WS looking for reasons to 'blame', etc. to justify HIS actions!



...you are 'wasting time' to try and make sense of what a WS says.... just know that all a WS is looking for is a way to NOT be responsible for his own choices.... by 'going out' with OWH... you are 'giving him' the excuses he is looking for...by legitimizing his!


Yep...

Fox...what's done is done... know that it's not a good idea to go out with OWH....or any other man, for that matter, while you are still married!

As far as PLAN B goes.....I think you should still go ahead.. but you also don't want your WS to think it's ONLY a reaction to the weekend incident....but rather a choice you are making due his A continuing....

...up to you to decide if you want to hold off a bit and let WS cool down...

..WHEN to go into PLAN B is really decision....are you ready for N\C with WS?

Fox - Busy weekend huh? Lots of excitement!


To turn him on you of course! If she had told him sooner, WH would have confronted you and probably never would have went. Then would never have got "caught in the act".
My guess is the A is on shakey ground and he was considering that lighthouse. I also think she is the one who planted the seed to your WH that you were sleeping with her BH.


womanoffaith5 called this one!


Fog, fog, fog, all of it! This was his way of trying to turn the tables onto you and take the focus off of himself for being a WH. Finally something he could he thinks vindicates what he has done to his family. And OW fed it to him in spoonfuls.

There is no better time than now to carry out you Plan B! You wanted to take his power away? Take it now! Give him the letter. GO DARK. Do not communicate with him any longer! Poof...no more power WH.

MB

*****************************************************************
Each decision we make, each action we take, is born out of an intention.
*****************************************************************

The two of which? I know what the conversation with her BH and OW went.

If you mean between WH and OW.....I'm sure it was just griping between them. I KNOW WH did not feel better aftwards. WH friend drove...thank goodness. WH was in no shape to drive.

I think we are asking about how the conversation went between WH and OW. She can't have been happy that he was so upset about you and her husband. After all, why should it matter? Unless he still cares for you.

I'm just loving this turn of events.

I think she opened a whole can of worms that she was not expecting. She doesn't know WH well enough to know what he is going to do. I knew exactly what he would do...and he did it. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

It might not be very MB of me but I too am LOVING this turn of events. Who the he!! does he think he is? It's not all bad for him to believe I am moving on...... and maybe I am.
Not with OW H but just moving on, knowing that good things are coming no matter the outcome of my M.

I'll get the blow-by-blow to you ASAP, I have some things I have to do around the office. But I can't resist checking back here every little bit to see what you all think. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Thank you for not beating me up too badly. I knew I shouldn't really go out with OW H but it's so nice not to have the relationship pressure and just go do something we both like to do. We both know neither one is ready for a relationship, especially with each other. Support and information that's what we get from each other. And if it messes with OW and BH a little bit, that's just frosting on the cake.

Gosh, funny how work gets in the way of MB posting. I'm home today though.

Before my slip, WH used to make comments about me being unfaithful. I have a lot of males that are just friends, and have been for years. A couple times, WH came over when some were around, and made nasty remarks. But he was never ANGRY about it. And during this time he was LIVING with OW.

I just told WH that I was married, and intended to keep my vows. Wow, wish that I did.

So enjoy this, but be very careful. You don't want to regret any of your behavior, especially if your husband comes back.

Fox,

I leave for a little bit of time and you go and get all exciting on me... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Wow! This would be a great time to implement Plan B! With all of this uproar, the tide may help YOU to get past your own withdrawal, after seeing his behavior, it will remind you why you are doing this...

Please do tell when you have the time...this is so not MB of me, but dang this is juicy... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I actually developed a nice friendship w/ OM's BW. She's a very nice woman, 8 years older than me and undeserving of the chit her serial cheating, lying, POS STBXWH gave her for almost 26 years. We have shared invaluable information and she even testified for me at the trial as to this man's character (lack thereof), obsessive compulsive personaliy, sex addiction referral and much much more that was useful to be in custody battle w/ EX WW. I have also shared things with her that will most certainly assure her of getting a fairly handsome piece of his POS financial hide in the end.

Do not involve the children around the OW' H at any time and to someone's point always make it a public place if you meet at all (preference would be to talk by phone).

Is it wierd or what that the WS somehow thinks you should be sitting home pining for him while he's out w/ OW having fun. Idiots!

Actually - me personally - I think you need to wait a few more days for Plan B now. Let me give my opinion, and then see what others think.

If you hand him a plan B letter now, the first thing he is going to say is "Aha! She IS having an A with OWH, and she wants me out of the way!!".

In fact, I think he will show your plan B letter to OW, and to all his family, as his "proof" that YOU are indeed having an A, that you do not want anything to do with him, and you have even told him that he is not allowed to call you unless it is an emergency. I don’t think he will see it as a heart felt plea to save your family. Furthermore, when he shows it to OW, she will tell him that you are playing more games, that this is just more proof that you are trying to win him back, and then dump him, all as revenge. After all you are the “scorned woman”.

Again, that is just my opinion. Based on experience.
Remember a few posts back, when you said that you were going to tell your WH that you have been talking to OWH and she is not filing for D even though he offered to pay,etc. I said that your WH would claim that you are sleeping with OWH, and that OWH's is a lunatic, that he has abused his wife, and that his wife has no choice in all this -she had to leave him to protect herself and her child. OW knew exactly what she was doing. She set your WH up to see you with her own H at the rodeo, so that she could “prove” that she is the only one who really cares about him. After that little incident she told your WH things like “I’ll bet they have been sleeping together for months, they are planning to screw us in the D, they get together all the time and plot their attack on us, your W is planning to have your kids around my WH – and you know how horrible he is! I have told you how bad he is! And now look – you saw them with your own eyes!

I would guess that part of the reason your WH was so upset is because OW has made her own H out to be some sort of monster. Your WH has never heard anything good about him. That is how OW makes herself look better. Your WH thinks he has just saved this woman from a life of abuse. And now he thinks that his own children are going to be exposed to him as well.

And what is that bit about you telling your WH to “go ahead and hit me”? Don’t go there. Do not take your R down that path where your arguments escalate to that sort of stuff. Is that the sort of thing you want to show your kids? I know your kids weren’t there the other night, but honestly, once you start saying things like that, you just get into a bad pattern that is hard to break out of, and eventually it gets back around to your kids.

You need to be the bigger person. The sane one. The mature one.

I think you need to let a little time go by now, before you give your WH the plan B letter. I just don’t think it would have the right impact now. I think he and OW would just pick it apart as their proof that you and OWH are playing some game.

Wow. I think WOF is hit the nail on the head.

B-
Thank you. I was afraid I may be off base

But it sure seems like the Fox’s WH has followed the typical script – to the letter.

Fox – I have heard all the same crap you are hearing right now.

My WxH is a security guard at a junior college. His first OW is a cop – sort of. She wears a uniform, but her job is to schedule neighborhood watch meetings, community involvement, stuff like that. The two of them thought they were sooooo cool. Two “law enforcement officers” so in love. Soul mates. She told him all about her horrible, abusive BH. He told her similar things about me. I was never a good wife. Oh, I did all the right things, but I just didn’t UNDERSTAND him like her. And besides, he was looking for someone who had the same interests as him. And here she was – a cop, like him! (of course , he isn’t a real cop, but that is what he thought he was when she was around) Plus – he wanted a woman to go fishing and hunting with him. And she told him that “even though she never went fishing, hunting, or camping before, she always wanted to – but her own abusive H wouldn’t let her. (big fat lie – turns out that she refused to do anything of an outdoors nature – so her H sold all his own camping gear)

I too became friends with OWH. And honestly, I think that is when I really lost all love for my WxH. When I got to know that man, and realized how nice he was, and how devastated he was when his wife left, I began to feel like “wow. I don’t care that my WxH has hurt me – but he has also hurt my boys – AND he has devastated this other H and his two children- that is really bad” I too got some good “dirt” on the OW from her H, and tried to share it with my WxH. After all, I had been married to this man for 18 years. I was mother to his children. Surely he would appreciate hearing me tell him the truth about OW.

But he didn’t appreciate hearing any of the truths I tried to share. He said her H was lying about her. Her H was abusive. No one understands her the way he does……just like no wants understands him the way she did. I was a scorned woman (yes, he really said that). And a woman scorned would do anything to seek revenge. He was convinced that I was sleeping with OWH.

In fact, at one point, OW had her own attorney write a letter and send it to her H, that said “we understand that you are in a R with Womanoffaith, you are being advised that your two minor children are not allowed to call Womanoffaith “Mom”. If you allow the children to call her Mom, you will face repercussions”

Of course I never even met their kids. And would NEVER consider allowing them to call me mom. That was just further proof of the sick mind that enters into an adulterous R, and then continues it with more lies and manipulations. Your OW is no different. You have seen it all ready. She knows you are talking to her H but she doesn’t say anything – until – now. She has not filed for D. None of this stuff is by accident. She is carefully planning every move.

I would predict that her own H will get tired of it all –very soon – and file for D.

I also promise you that this A will not last. In fact. OW is probably searching for a replacement. I would imagine that your WH is just not as much fun as he used to be. And her involvement is all about fun. All about how many men she can keep on a string. She wants to keep her own H on a string too – just in case.
Does that look like someone who is madly in love with your H?

The question is: can you wait this thing out? The A will end. But will you still be interested in your WH by then? The more of this dramatic garbage you witness form your WH – the drunken arguments, bringing his OW to the rodeo to confront you – all that stuff will chip away at your last shreds of love for him.

I speak from experience. I was the one who filed. I have no regrets – it was the right thing for me.

I still recommend that you wait a few more days before you give him the PBL.

FH1,

Ok, so now you best concentrate on making their lives miserable. Whoz lives? WS and OW. You already know how. LOL!!!

Yes, be happy and move forward. If plan B helps, then send the letter. Be ready t/d the D walk with U R ready.

Be honest with your children so you both can be a part of each other's support group.

take care,
L.

Hi FH1,


WSs are so self-absorbed...that it really doesn't hurt for them to get a taste of their own medicine...and definitely confirms to WS that he does NOT control situation....

In my case, PLAN B has been 'messing' with WS's mind for awhile now!

....sounds like you will enjoy the 'relief' of PLAN B.....because then your WS will STOP being able to mess around with YOUR mind!

I really need to take a day off of work to get you all updated! I have had 5 more contacts between yesterday and today. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

I am working on an update in Word and getting back to it any chance I can get. Soon! Work really gets in the way of my life! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

I've read all your posts and will respond soon. Thank you all so much for sticking with me. I'm sure there are more 2/4s to come....I didn't handle some of this as well as I should have but I have to accept that I'm human too.

I can say that I my head and heart are finally in sync. He has done some things in the last couple of days that really showed me what kind of a dad he is.....he did use the kids in this and it backfired on him. They see right through him. He has lost all credibility with them....which is just sad. I know one day he will have deep regrets for his behavior, especially in regards to DDs. But how badly will those bridges be burned? Terribly sad.....

FH1,

I don't know if B can take the 'cliffhangers'! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Hugs to the DD's...

Hugs to you, you ARE human, and we will understand, but I am chomping at the bit here...

Be careful with the jealousy card. It speaks of a relationship in high school. I had that option, as most BS's do... but, I wanted to be sure and stay 'clean' during that period. When my fww came home, I didn't want there to be any reason/excuse except for her choosing to because she wanted to. (It makes it easier for me to sleep at night too.)

So did you ask for a day off work?

foxy??? you ok?????

Fox, where are you?

Fox...how are you doing?

Yup, I'm ok....just incredibly busy at work. Bad timing for a huge project to have to go out! My modem went out of my computer at home so I'm having a heck of a time getting back on here.

I have most of my update in Word and will post it today. Thanks for sticking with me. I really appreciate it.

Hello foxnhound, I've been reading your thread for some time. I've always thought you were doing an excellent job in your dealings with your WH. I, like the others, find this response from your WH over you going to the rodeo with OWH very interesting.

He's the one that left you and is living with someone else while still married to you. I agree MB principles are great, but sometimes you can't adhere to them 100%. Your going to the rodeo was innocent on your part. And even if you thought the fact you went might get back to your H, so be it. A little jealousy just might do him some good, he gets to see what it's like to be on the receiving end.

Some of my observations... If I may

1) I think your WH was enjoying the knowledge you were continuing to be his little insurance policy. In the event things with him and OW didn't work out, he could come back to you with his tail between his legs and all would be forgiven. You being out with OWH blew his thinking out of the water, you were moving on, how dare you!!!
2) I'm betting one reason he spazzed on you being with OWH in particular is he is probably imagining the worst in his mind. What if you and OWH fell madly in love and rode off into the sunset only to have his R with OW turn sour and into something he doesn't want at all. For the rest of his days he would have to pick up DD's from you and OWH. WORST NIGHTMARE material for the WS.
3) WTF was OW thinking as he stood there railing you? Doesn't she see that as a slap in her face?? Come on...
I hope it has put a huge damper on their R. He's probably stewing.

Well, that's my 2 cents. I'm anxiosly awaiting the blow by blow myself!

k, here is the blow by blow, as best as I can remember. I got so wrapped up in the moment and just the ridiculousness of it, I forgot some! I truly did not go to make WH jealous, I didn't think he would be. He had his 'perfect' little woman in OW already. It was OW choice to tell him who I was with....and she made a bad choice. I do have to admit that I get a little kick out of his reaction. She can't be very happy about it. Although she is justifying to her BH that WH was just trying to make me admit that I did something just as bad as he did so I wasn't any better like I supposedly thought I was.

It did make me feel better to see OW. Not what I would have expected. Must make WH feel STRONG. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

Anyway:

OW H and I were sitting in the stands watching the rodeo. He was sitting back a little, resting on the back of the seat and I was leaning forward with my elbows on my knees, intent on the action of the rodeo. For some unknown reason, I glanced to the right of the grandstands and then looked back at the arena. (I must have felt the heat from WH gaze that made me glance his way) I thought “huh, that kind of looked like WH”. I watched the arena for a couple more seconds and then looked that way again. It WAS WH. He continued to stare and I looked back innocently (thinking “aw chit, this isn’t going to be good”.) Finally, I shrugged my shoulders and mouthed the words “what?” He shook his head in what I assume was disgust and turned to walk away. I thought to myself “tough chit, I’m not running after you”. I turned back to watch the rodeo and leaned over to OW H and said “WH is here.” He asked if I wanted to go talk to him and I said “no, I don’t answer to him anymore”. We both began watching the rodeo again. WH must not have gotten the point, because the cell phone I was carrying (borrowed from DD13, since WH shut mine off) started vibrating. I glanced over again and WH was standing there with his phone to his ear looking at me. I told OW H I better go talk to WH and headed over to WH. WH started walking away, down the stairs. I was a little uncertain about how far I should follow him. If he headed outside, I knew I wasn’t going there. I wish I had known at the time what OW looked like, I didn’t know it, but as I went down the stairs, OW passed me on her way up to her BH. Later I found out she went to her BH and sat beside him, asking him what the he!! he was doing to which he replied, "watching a rodeo, what are you doing?" <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> She got up and went downstairs alone.

When we got downstairs, WH turned to me and said “what the he!! do you think you’re doing?” I said, “watching a rodeo” <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> WH turned a bit red and gritted out “who with?” I said “OW BH. Any other stupid questions?”
WH got redder…….and pretty much lost his mind. First thing he made a comment about was about me bring OW BH into our DDs lives. I asked him why would I do that…I was just at a rodeo with a friend, that’s it. DDs were supposed to be safe with him…..”WH, where are DDs?” I got no response from that one…but he did pause in his tirade for a moment. I know he thought he “caught” me and he made a comment about how I wasn’t any better than him. I couldn’t help myself and I said “at least his hand wasn’t on my azz and his tongue down my throat like when he caught his wife and YOU”. WH got a little redder……. And off he went yelling, accusing, threatening, etc. Shortly after WH and I had gone downstairs, OW BH came down, too. WH turned a little redder……and said how nice that was the OW BH came down to protect me, he glared at OW BH, and took a step toward him. I stepped between and told WH to back the f… off. I said there were strangers all around who were willing to protect me, he was acting like a mad man. I had enough and started walking back towards the stairs to return to my seat, WH walked right with me and blocked my way. Luckily someone else was coming down the stairs and he stepped aside just enough to let me by.

Then I was upstairs by myself. &#61516; I stood there for a couple of seconds, thinking, “what the heck do I do now? I can’t leave OW BH down there with WH by himself but I don’t really want to go back down there.

So….I headed back downstairs. As I got to the bottom and turned the corner, I saw WH, WH BF, and OW standing kind of in a row. I would have to pass through them to get to OW BH. &#61516; Not being one to run like a scared rabbit, I walked right through them and headed for OW BH, who was quite a ways away from this little group. As I passed through them, I turned to WH BF and said, “It’s appropriate that you are here, Chris, you’ve been in on this from the beginning. Running around with them and covering for WH. I don’t know how you can even look at my girls and I” He said “he’s my best friend, what am I supposed to do?” He sounded pretty sheepish. I told him he better find better friends, then I turned and walked away. I was intending on going to OW BH and leaving, the rodeo was mostly over anyway. WH, WH BF, and OW had to wait until it was almost over so they could get in without paying.

WH was right behind me, I could almost feel his breath on my neck. I decided I better not go towards OW BH as maybe they would start throwing punches. I turned to face WH and he almost ran into me. I told him he need to leave and asked what the heck he was thinking, bringing his married girlfriend that he has been living with for months to confront his wife that he thinks is seeing someone when he should be spending his first weekend with his girls. WTF? That didn’t even seem to register. Off he went again, yelling, accusing, nasty sexual comments, etc. For some of the time, I was reading the menu that was above his head and wasn’t really listening to his tirade. I remember thinking during part of it….churro, what’s a churro? I thought about interrupting WH to ask but decided maybe not. A few of the things WH said, I responded to. Yelling back and getting right into his face, then I’d calm down and just stand there looking around while he had his temper tantrum. WH BF was there to “hold him back” WH spent most of his time half laying against WH BF shoulder because he was leaning aggressively towards me. I don’t imagine it helped, when I would laugh and tell him what a joke this whole scene was, bringing your married girlfriend that you have been living with to confront your wife who you “think” is seeing someone when the divorce YOU wanted would be final in a couple of weeks. Just ridiculous.

I had told him once at the beginning of his accusations that there was nothing romantic between OW BH and I and I wasn’t going to keep repeating it. I’m sure that is where some of the nasty comments came from, to get a reaction from me trying to make me either admit or deny. After the first time I said it, I didn’t do either. I do not have to explain myself to him, I just said “whatever”. Except for one explicit nasty sexual comment to which I replied “that’s what is in your head, not mine”

While WH was screaming at me, OW BH tried to talk to OW. She wouldn’t talk to him. So he went turned so he could see part of the rodeo and WH and I. He watched for a couple of minutes and then tried to talk to OW again. She still wasn’t talking, so he stepped away again. Eventually, she went to him and I could hear her griping at him. She couldn’t really say much, she’d known that we talked and were going to the rodeo for weeks and had already jumped her BH about it. I don’t think she expected what she got from WH when she told him that day. He went absolutely ballistic and ran after me. I wonder what OW thinks of that? It had very little to do with DDs, it was about ME.

WH was talking quieter for a little while and said that everything he said to me the other night (3 ½ hour conversation) was the god honest truth and I told him the same was true for me. I think he IS feeling very betrayed right now, I think he was having second thoughts and coming out of his fog a little bit. I think he expected me to sit and wait and cry for him forever, that he could come back anytime he decided. Now, I think he believes that option is gone. But he can blame it on me now. I looked at him at one point when he was just quiet, standing there, thinking of what to do next. And I said “look in your heart WH, you KNOW me better than that.” No reply, but much emotion in his eyes.

I know there were things I said that I shouldn’t have and that I probably shouldn’t have been there in the first place. But… I was proud of myself in how I handled it. I did not cry, I didn’t scream back, but I didn’t back down either. I stood firm and did not let him bully me or break me down. Even in the chaos, WH gained respect for me. I saw it….he didn’t agree with it but he saw MY line drawn in the sand and my willingness to stand up for it.

There was a point where he was screaming and leaning towards me aggressively through his friend and I did lose my temper and tried to goad him into hitting me, if nothing else it would prove the kind of man he has become. He has never acted this aggressively before. It was wrong, I shouldn’t have done it. It’s never been done before and it won’t be done again. However, it did look like he considered it and moved a little closer to me…at which time a few cowboys standing around took a step closer to me too. WH then said that wasn’t the kind of man he was, I said I could see the kind of man he had become and I wasn’t sure where the changes ended. WH told me “as of today, I have NO MORE feelings for you, I’m DONE.” According to his actions and words before “today” I thought we were already done. All I said was “goodbye”. He said "I mean it were DONE, I said “goodbye”, he said it again, so I said goodbye”. This went on like 5 more times. OW and WH BF then pushed him away and out the door. Before, she got to WH, OW stepped closer to me and pointed at me and said “you better watch it”. I took a step closer and very calmly said “what the F…are you going to do about it?” She stepped back and moved to WH. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

The look in his eyes was kind of creepy…he looked insane and enraged and hurt and desperate, all rolled together. So close to losing his mind…… I actually felt bad for him.

While I was reading the menu above his head when he was yelling, one of his comments was that I could pick the girls up Tuesday 01/16 after school. I said no, that was not our original agreement. I would pick them up Sunday, 01/14, when I returned from Great Falls. He insisted that I could not…he was keeping them until he dropped them off at school on Tuesday 01/16. I stopped talking about it deciding I would let the situation cool down and talk to him about it the next day, Sunday. I knew DDs were safe at his mother’s house for the time being.

More to come……I’ll give you this to start the 2x4s. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I've come to the point where ENOUGH is ENOUGH.

Thank you, familycomesfirst, for your thoughts. I always come away from my interactions with WH wondering if I did it just "right". I appreciate your validating that I'm doing it okay.

I think your observatios are spot on. WH was using me and I was starting to feel like an OW. He'd lean on me and then go home to OW. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

It did seem like he imagined the absolute worst, like OWH and I would be together forever. He was as obsessive as I was about trying to get dates, details, etc. And still is. OW is riding her BH pretty hard. There aren't any details to give, but they sure think there are. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" /> I know WS, in general, don't reason and can't see that irony of something like this. But I think OW is starting to, as well as WH. He was coming enough out of the fog, he may just be thinking clearly enough to understand that this pain, anguish, and desperation is what I went through too. And I'm sure he is worried about DDs to a certain degree. In his head he may think I am dating OW H for payback. I am not dating OW H and contact with him is not about payback to WH or OW. He may think the biggest payback I could have would be to have OW H in DDs life. That is not healthy for them and I know it. They do know that I talk on the phone to him and they did know I was going to the rodeo with him. They also know why...support and friendship in this mess we are both in.

Yeah, what is OW thinking? When she is talking to her BH, she dumps all of WH bad reactions on me because I "give him a reason"....but what does she REALLY think, when she is alone with herself? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" /> WH has told me derogatory things about OW BH and OW has told her BH husband derogatory things about me. Desperately trying to get us to distrust each other. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> It is actually funny to watch them scramble.

It had to have put a huge damper on the A. Right now, it is all about ME and OWH. WH and OW are digging, accusing, anything the can do.... not much time for THEM. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> I bet right about now, she is sick to death of hearing about ME!

Again, thank you! More to come.....

Well, no 2x4's from me. The whole scene was really rediculous IMO. Like you said, you've been served with D papers, he's living with his OW even though she's not even in the process of getting a D. It's amazing how much energy some WS's spend attempting to catch BS's in a slip up and demonize them so they don't have to feel like such scum for doing what they have done. He is worried about DDs being around OWH yet OWH has to deal with his DS being in the same house with your H??? They WAY jumped the gun by moving in together so soon. None of the children should be exposed to anyone at this point.

I think you are amazingly strong and you handled it the well. As for OW saying you better watch it??? That is hilarious!!! What, you BETTER stay away from her H yet she's living with yours??? UNBELEIVABLE.

I have to admit one more thing I did today...that I probably shouldn't have but did. It was for ME. Today is OW and OWH 10th anniversary. While reading a post on MB, I noticed the quote that I included in an email to WH, OW, and OW H. This quote was read at H & I's wedding. I doubt he recognized it when he read it today but...I did. I also added my own little snide comment. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> 'Cause I wanted to.


I do have more updates coming about contact this weekend and the power play for DDs that happened this weekend.

After the scene at the rodeo, I called DDs to check on them. All was fine, they thought WH was at a meeting and I was at the rodeo. I spoke with DD13 and told her WH and come to the rodeo and was mad at me. I told her to call me if he came there and she was uncomfortable or worried about WH behavior. I told her I was sure he would be fine but just in case, to call me. He did end up going there and spent the night at his mother’s house with them, DD13 told me the next day. I believe he stayed there because he thought I was going to go pick them up. He had not stayed the night before, he went “home” to OW.

I chatted with DDs again in the morning and told them I would talk to them when I got back to town. I decided to wait to speak with WH when I returned. I didn’t want him all fired up again while spending the day with DDs.

I called DDs again that afternoon. They were having an okay time and everything sounded pretty relaxed. They said WH had rented them some movies to watch this evening. I asked if they wanted to stay the night at their grandma’s again and both said yes. I was hoping to diffuse the situation a little more by offering another night (non-school night) but didn’t want WH to make the decision that they COULDN’T come home. I then asked to talk to WH. He got on the line and I told him I told the kids they could stay another night and asked if that was okay with him. He agreed and I said I would pick them up Monday after work. He said we would discuss that tomorrow (Monday), to which I said, no, I will pick them up after work on Monday, as per our original agreement. Again, he said we would discuss it tomorrow. I let it drop, planning on calling my lawyer in the morning and finding out what I could do if he didn’t let me pick them up on Monday. WH stayed Sunday evening with DDs at his mother’s. Again, I’m assuming it was so I could not go pick them up, which I did not attempt.

I had borrowed DD13’s cell phone for the weekend so that DDs could reach me. WH purchased cell phones for DDs in late October and he had mine shut off in December. When WH came to the rodeo he told me to give Lakyn’s phone to him. I refused, many times, saying I would return it to the person I borrowed it from (DD13). He brought DDs to my office on Monday and made DD13 ask for her cell phone, I returned her phone to her. I laughed and talked to DDs for a little bit, while they raided my cupboards for candy. DD13 asked how my weekend was and I enthusiastically said “it was great! How was yours?” I think she set me up for that one…she knew what had happened (kinda). I asked WH what the plan was for the girls that night, was I picking them up or was he dropping them off. He said he was going to leave it up to the girls where they wanted to stay and then he asked them where they wanted to stay. I didn’t even let them answer, I said no, they needed to come home, the next day was a school day and they had things to take care of at home. I did not want them put in the position of choosing between us, so I decided even if they got mad at me, I’d make the decision for them and relieve the pressure. They said ok, they’d plan on coming home. DD13 later thanked me for doing that. She wanted to come home but didn’t want to say so in front of WH.

DD13 took the girls to his house (his married live-in girlfriend was at work) and immediately called me at work angrily saying he thought we were going to talk this evening about where DDs would stay that night. I said no, the agreement was that they would be home on Monday night to prepare for school the next day and I was sticking to the agreement. He got angrier and starting yelling, swearing, etc. Finally, he got mad enough that he hung up on me (after saying “f u”). Before he did so, I told him he needed to have them home by 8:00. He said, if he brought them home it would be by bedtime. I said again, by 8:00pm. He asked if I was going to talk to DDs. I said, yeah, I’d talk to them when they got home. I thought that was a weird question. Then he said, no, are you going to TALK to them? I asked what he was talking about. He said about you and OW H. I said there is no me and OW H and again he insisted that I had to talk to DDs about OW H or he was going to. I told him I didn’t need to talk to them, they already knew I talked to OW H, that OW H was WH’s married live-in girlfriends husband, and that I was going to the rodeo with him as a friend. That’s all there is to say about it. WH sat DDs down and grilled them about what they knew about OW H and what I did when I went out of town, asked them what they would think if OW H was my boyfriend, etc.

He brought them home shortly after 7:00pm. I was on the phone and was making dinner for myself. DDs brought their overnight bags and backpacks in and he followed them in. I asked them if they had dinner yet and they said no. So, I added more to what I was making. He said goodbye to DDs and then stood around. I was still on the phone, making dinner. I was on the phone on purpose, so I wouldn’t have to speak with him. I also had a video camera running, just in case his behavior got out of hand again. He stood there for quite a while and finally I turned and asked if he was waiting for something. He said, yeah, you. I said I was busy. He said it was about the girls and I told him I wasn’t ready to talk to him yet. He said he saw I was going to play it that way. I said, I guess. And he said he wanted to have the girls on Saturday, 01/20 from 4-6. I said I’d have to see what we have planned and I would let him know. He said fine, told the girls goodbye again, and left.

On Tuesday, I received this email from WH

WH email Tues afternoon: Have you thought about if you'll let me have the girls on Sat.

BS email Wednesday morning (I made him wait on purpose): I need times.

WH email: It will be from 3:00 to around 8:00.
I've come up with a schedule for the girls.On Mon.,Tues.,and Wed.of every week I'll pick them up on cold days or if it's nice the girls can walk to my mom's and I'll be there shortly after that. I'll get the girls back to your house around 6:30-7:00 on those days. we can start this next week on the 22nd of Jan.

BS: It isn't about whether or not I will "let" you, either. It's about doing what is right for the girls and not pulling the power play bullchit that went on with you this weekend. Your first weekend with them and you pulled that crap, really makes me want to trust you with them again. You used them as payback and that is absolutely unacceptable. The girls need to have an opinion (but not a choosing between the two of us, like you set up at my office on Monday) and I am willing for them to do things with you but there has to be a parent in here somewhere. They need to be HOME on school nights, there needs to be a balance between what kids want and what is appropriate. Your living arrangements and recent behavior are not appropriate for our children or anyone else's. THINK of them. Why haven't you wanted to spend time before this, and if you did, why didn't you ask? Where was all the concern before? I don't want an answer from you....you need to ask yourself those questions. You're little "talk" with them about me backfired by the way, as it should have, you should never have done that to them. But again, it was payback to me, about YOUR feelings, not their's. You are burning bridges with them.........you need to calm down and THINK of your relationship with them before you do things like that. You didn't make me look bad, you made yourself look bad in their eyes. Don't burn your bridges so badly that there is no repairing your relationship with them. They are growing up fast and you are quickly losing that time. They will remember the destruction of their family and how we acted forever. YOU chose to destroy our family, WE did not.

You originally told me from 4-6, why is it now 3 to "around" 8?........and there will be no "around". When you are setting times, set it, and then be there when you say you are going to be there. The girls and I have lives too and won't be sitting around waiting for you. You had them all last weekend plus a day, you should have done what you needed to do then instead of hunting me down to throw a temper tantrum. I have plans that include them this weekend.

YOUR after school schedule is not acceptable at this time, we need to let a judge decide the details, I've already talked to my lawyer about it. The girls have too much homework, after school activities, and other responsibilities at their HOME.

After your behavior this past weekend, I think it is in the best interest of DDs for us to limit our contact with each other. We do need to contact each other in any way possible for emergencies and I will do so. Otherwise, when you pick them up, I will send them out to you. When you drop them off, they can come in without you. There is too much tension between us and it is not good for them, no contact is better than bad contact. Please don't call them and ask to speak with me, do not come to my office, if they need to come to me when you have them, they can come in without you. I will no longer be taking your calls at the office unless it is an emergency. For anything but emergencies, I prefer email between the two of us...that way it is clearly laid out what each said and there is no confusion about what someone "meant" or thinking we said something when we didn't. It all needs to be documented so we both know what happened..

WH email Thursday morning:

I'd like to have the girls from 3-8 skating is from 4-6.


This was not what he originally told me. But it doesn't really matter. He should have done those things on the weekend he had them instead of hungting me down.

Now I'm wondering if I should let them go or not. They will want to, I don't really have other plans, and he is asking.......there is no really good reason why not other than the bull he pulled last weekend. Will he bring them back when he says he will? If not, what do I do?

I received another email from WH a little bit ago asking again if he can take the girls on Saturday. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

I would let them go. He sounds like he is paying attention, and giving you the hours. If there continue to be problems, let the attorneys handle it.

Fox,
I would let the kids spend the time with their dad. As you said yourself, their time with him is not about YOU. His visitation is a separate entity, and, as long as you have no plans, last minute changes can only benefit the kids.

Fox,

You handled yourself VERY WELL...you may have done some damage, but nothing that his CRAZED antics did not bring you to. Considering the craziness, you handled yourself with grace and class...



Bwaaaaahahahahahahah!!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Churro...

A churro is a fried-dough pastry-based snack which originated in Spain, and is popular in Latin America, France, the USA, and Spanish-speaking Caribbean islands. It is sometimes referred to as a Spanish doughnut or Mexican doughnut. Porras are similar but with a round thicker cross section, so named due to the fact that they usually resemble the form of a club.

Some claim that the churro is named after the shape of the horns of the Churro breed of sheep which is reared in the Spanish grasslands. This may be true as it is possible that the churro was initially invented by the shepherds of this region.

The churro is typically fried to a crunchy consistency. Its surface is ridged due to being extruded from a churrera, a syringe with a star-shaped nozzle (round for porras). Churros are generally prisms in shape, but instead of being straight they may be curled or spirally twisted.

Fox!
What are you doing??


Since when, in this life, do we just do things that are for ME that involves hurting other people? Isn't that EXACTLY what your WH is doing? He is doing something for HIM with OW that has brought hurt to you, your kids, OWH, their kids, and ultimately a whole lot of hurt to himself and OW. so you respond by sending an email to WH, OW, and OWH that is just to make you feel good? That doesn't sound like you. it doesn't sound like the sort of thing you want to teach your girls.

You need to be the bigger person. the one who is above board. A year from now, you will look back on this email and think "did I really do that? What did I hope to prove with that?" Maintain a life of integrity, and a year from now you can look back and say "what I went through, really sucked, but I am proud of myself, and how I reacted"

I don't want to beat you up - but you are slowly headed down a very bad path.

I would suggest that for the girls sake, for now, you and WH need to come up with a fairly rigid plan and stick to it. No more of this back and forth with 6 emails talking about you are going to let a judge decide, becuase you can not trust him after they way he acted. Keep your written words short, business like, and simple. Becuase later on he will show a judge that you wrote "I am not sure if you should have the girls" and he won't say a word about how he was a drunken idiot who tried to hurt you. and the judge is going to say "Mrs Fox, why were you threatening to keep the girls away from their father?"

I remember one time saying to my Ex "I should not have to spend one single night away from my boys. I did not give birth to my sons to ship them off for the weekend"
that statement had a huge impact on him.
I said "they have school, they have all their homework here, they WILL be sleeping in their own beds, in their home, on school nights." I didn't threaten, I didn't cry, I just spoke with conviction. Our agreement now is that he gets them every other weekend and 1 night a week. he has never taken that 1 night a week with them, and maybe one weekend each month. (Of course the oldest is at college now, so that doesn't apply to him!) Just come up with a plan, and be firm.

As for this Saturday - if this is not a special skating party - like a youth group activity or soemthing, I would have probably said no to him. I would have said "this is my time, it is precious to me, please arrange to take them skating on your own weekends" At this point though - with all the back and forth - I would porbably let them go skating with him. Otherwise he will make you out to be bad the guy,and you don't need that right now.

In the future I would suggest that if he wants them for a few hours, on your day, ask him why, what the occasion is. If it is a special function, then it is ok to agree to it. If it is just to go skating with him, nicely suggest that he reschedule so that you can have your babies with you on your weekend.

Fox- please take a deep breath and re-think your current actions. You are acting like him, and you don't need to do that! you are far better than that!!

Man O Man... he is acting like such a child. I can't believe the way he's acting with your girls, but then look at who we are talking about. He felt it was perfectly fine to rip apart their world and move straight in with a married woman and her child. He gave one of your DD's a four wheeler (buying love) only to allow the OW's son to ride it more than her. He isn't exactly the king of bright moves at this point.

The problem that has now arose from you going with OWH to the rodeo is he probably feels entitled to do what ever the he77 he wants as far a introducing DD's to the OW. I'd say keep communication with him at a minimum and allow the lawyers to do their work. Once visitation has been set, if he postures you can nail him for not following court orders. Speed up this process as much as you can, it will help you out a lot.

You are correct that he did have them all last weekend and he could have had more quality time with them if he wasn't so wound up over you going to the rodeo with OWH. Which, btw, is really none of their business. You weren't at the rodeo with OWH and your DD's. You haven't had OWH around your DD's, which is what your WH is acting like has happened. Good greif, he's acting like you are living with him already, get a grip dude!!

As far as letting him take them this weekend... hard for me to give you advice. He is acting extremely unstable now, as a mother myself, I'd be warey.

I'll never understand this kind of behaviour... he's got what he wants, right??? Anyway, I've found that time and silence calms people down usually. Give him time to cool and examine HIS actions, and remove yourself from the drama. You can still share info if you like with OWH, but no outings until you are officially D'd. Just to keep the drama low. I believe you should be able to do what ever the he77 you want, but since you have DD's to consider, you have to tread lightly.

womanoffaith5,

Thank you for your thoughts. All of what you have said, I've already said to myself. However, you can only turn the other cheek so many times. Eventually, you start to be a wimp and allow people to treat you poorly. I believe that you teach people how to treat you to a certain degree. If I allow it, there is no reason not to do it. There is a point where enough is enough and you have to stick up for what you believe is right and stop allowing the poor treatment.

The email was not mean, cruel or threatening. It was a love poem, wishing her H and her a happy anniversary. Hoping she would THINK..and she did....she called her H. It had the desired effect. I didn't expect her to go running back to her H, but I did expect something. And she did something.

Now I will step back and be still again. I'm not getting in the gutter with them, but when they attack me, I will step to the curb.

I have alread talked to DDs about skating with their dad this weekend. I wasn't sure after his behavior with them last weekend if they would want to go. They do, so they can go. I didn't like how he kept changing times. He needs to set them and stick with them. One of my concerns with them going was whether or not OW would be there and whether he would bring them back. I do know that when they are with him, they are not in any danger (other than second hand smoke and exposure to OW).

I'm doing the best I can do with DDs. Even through this mess of a weekend, I've continued to tell them that their dad is a good man, just very confused right now, and tried to convey the addiction analogy with them. I did reassure them that things would eventually calm down and would not be so tense. I told them how much we both loved them.

He isn't doing the same. When DD13 came home she told me that he had a talk with them and she "could totally tell he was trying to turn us against you". <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/teary.gif" alt="" /> They didn't believe and it only made him look bad to them.

Who is this man? I'm fed up, absolutely fed up with the whole thing. DDs are the biggest losers in this mess and it ticks me off that he keeps adding to it. But I know...I can only control my own actions. (but it is still irritating)

I wanted to add you were wise to video tape your interaction with WH. He's in full lie to make myself look good mode. He want's to demonize you so bad. He's truly feeling the sting of his actions and he's lashing out at you like some crazed teenager who's mad at mommy cuz she won't let him do something everyone else is doing. I really wish he would step back and think about how he is handling the girls. They are at a tough age as is it... last thing they need is to realize they can manipulate their parents to get their way. It will cause you guys many headaches in dealing with them if they think that because one parent says no they can go to the other to get a yes just to spite the parent that said no.

familycomesfirst,

I too wish he would step back and take a look at what he is doing to DDs. He was starting to, I think, and then went over the edge a bit this weekend and lost sight of that again. I think he does feel like he is justified now in what he has done because he "caught" me. But again, it is about what HE feels..not what actually is...it is his perception and what his mind makes things that keep him all fired up. No matter what he thinks I did, there is no excuse for his behavior. He will see that...in time, but will it be too late?

DDs are already taking advantage of the situation to a certain degree. Not with me because I won't allow it, but with him. He's trying to buy them, he knows I don't have any money and is trying to use that. DD13 told me that she has him buy her stuff that she doesn't really need...just to make him spend money.

"DD13 told me that she has him buy her stuff that she doesn't really need...just to make him spend money."

Okay... am I bad because I laughed out loud at this???

No, I don't think your bad. I laughed too, I went to my room and cracked up!!! I kept the smirk off my face when DD13 told me, we had a bit of a discussion about taking advantage of things. I didn't necessarily tell her to stop, but felt I had to say something. It is nice to have things you just want as opposed to only what you need.

another thing that kind of gave me a giggle. DDs had borrowed a couple of my shirts and left them at his house on accident. I don't know why, I just find that kind of funny. Now she will be finding MY clothes at her house. hehehee I should my name in them so she KNOWS.

An interesting change has come over DD12 since this weekend. She has become much more pleasant. She has a bit of a reputation for her attitude and being a smart mouth. It has almost seemed that she isn't at all involved in her family falling apart. She doesn't talk about it at all, she sits closed mouthed when I've talked to both of them about it. When I've talked to her individually, she just says ok and whatever...no dialogue. Before this weekend, she'd have her moments of being pleasant but would mostly be a smart mouth....typical teenage stuff.

She came home Monday from WH and that evening we laughed and joked and had a really nice time. (amazing that this was after WH "talk" about me) She has been that way ever since...no smart mouth, doing things without an attitude when I ask, offering to make dinner, bringing me popcorn in the evening, etc. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I like it....but what brought it on?

Did she have a good weekend with her dad and now realizes she is not losing him, or did his "talk" backfire and maybe she has some appreciation for me? Hard to imagine she would have any appreciation....that just doesn't sound like a preteen. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> No matter what the reason, she has been an absolute joy to be around this week.

If you still have hopes of saving your marriage, I might have added something to that email (where you asked for no contact unless it is an emergency etc.): the parameters by which you would resume contact...ie: if he ends his relationship with OW and has NC with her forever...then you would consider a discussion on how to fix your marriage so you can both be happy in it...for the good of all concerned....something along those lines...

Not being familiar with your story; have you considered plan B and do you have a plan B letter written or are you set on a DV?

In my case, although neither one of us filed for DV, I had gone to talk to a couple of lawyers to see where I stood. One told me there wasn't any reason to rush to file for DV if I didn't want to DV at this point. We had no legal separation in my state. My FWH was fully agreeable to our support agreement during our separation(s). He knew he was the one at fault and he still felt responsible to provide for his family as we were accustomed.

The OW's H filed right away believing that my H was his WW's soulmate...that they were in LUVVVV. They did divorce and she made out quite well....her BS was wealth off financially.
He remarried a year or so later and she was left single after my H ended their A and reconciled with me. I don't know her status today...but my H was not her first A.

My DD is 12 and she goes back and forth on how she acts towards me. She sometimes shows great sympathy towards me regarding how much I do around the house and she'll pitch in a lot to help and she'll chat with me a lot. Sometimes it's like pulling teeth to get her help.

I was thinking maybe his little talk backfired. That's my gut reaction. She is having some sympathy for you and didn't appreciate dad trying to bring you down to his level. They are old enough to realize who did what first. Also, don't expect them to tell their dad they don't want to spend time with him or that they don't agree with what he's doing. They still need/want their father and probably feel that if they stand up to him he will get angry and go off or stop wanting to see them.

Divorce and separation of parents isn't easy. Especially in these situations. They feel like they are in the middle of a tug of war right now. When my parents D'd I was 17 and I REFUSED to have anything to do with him for a long time. But, I was older. My younger sisters did not feel the same as me.

Keep communicating with your D's. Continue to be the "sane" parent. It will work out well for you that way. Even when parents are together, it's still up to the individual to make sure they have a good R with their children. You can't force a spouse to be a good parent if they don't want to.

Fox,
I just wanted to add something real quick here.
the quote from your wedding - it is defiantely a beautiful love poem - but it is even more than that - it is a scriture verse, from the bible. You can find it in 1 Corinthians chapter 13, starting at verse 4:

4Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

and a little further in this passage comes this line:

And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.

it is a really nice passage from the Bible, I am glad it brings nice memories from you wedding.

It does bring back very special memories of our wedding. I was looking at some of our wedding pictures the other day. It's a little easier now and I don't instantly burst into tears.

I look at his picture....and try to find that man that I loved so much that day in the man that I have to deal with now. All the questions are still there, the why did this happen, the how how did this happen, the who the heck is he, the what could I have done, the why could he have just told me he wasn't happy. and why HER, and most of all, where did that man I loved so much go? (ok, now I did make myself cry)

I shouldn't look....it just hurts. But I'm trying to remember who he was, as I am quickly losing those memories. They are being replaced by the memories of things like this weekend.

After seeing her on Saturday I can honestly say that if I would have seen her at his office, I would have never considered her a threat. Small consolation, she still has him. The man he has become is not who I want anyway. I just wonder if H will ever return and if it will even matter anymore.

I am not yet in Plan B. I do have a letter written and was going to give it to WH on 01/15. However, after the events of the weekend, I decided it was not the right timing. He would not believe what I was telling him as far as my wanting to recover the marriage. I think he would have viewed it as payback...it was just bad timing after the events of the weekend.

The email I sent was not intended as Plan B. It was intended to get us both to take a step back and take a deep breath after the events of the weekend. I needed to calm down after just as much as he did. The instant I saw or heard his voice after that....I had my hackles up and didn't respond to him right because MY adrenaline was still so high.

I can already tell how difficult Plan B is going to be. In the email I told him I would not be taking his calls at my office unless it was an emergency. He called just moments ago, and I answered. He said it wasn't an emergency but it was easier for him to explain something over the phone. Long story short, a couple of weeks ago he had taken a part out of my pellet stove to have it repaired. It has not been returned. In an email I sent him this morning telling him he could have DDs on Saturday, I also asked him to return the part to the pellet stove so I could have it fixed. His call was explaining that it was in the process of getting it fixed...he had given it to another guy to repair. I told him I wasn't sure he was still going to do that, I thought he was so ticked that he'd just keep it. He said no, he was still going to take care of it for me. Where the heck did all that anger and accusations go? He was sounding like he sounded before this weekend. Am I "forgiven" already? I doubt it, but what happened? This man is notorious for holding a grudge and cutting anyone out of his life that he gets in a disagreement with.

I'm not sure what to think of his tone but this call made me realize just how he may try to test Plan B.

I would be willing to bet he will test plan b. You should read up on hopethisworks, he's a poster that went into a pretty dark plan B and his WS tried her best to test it.

I have a feeling he didn't mean a lot of what he said Sat. When he found out you were with OWH his jealousy got the best of him. So far he's been in control, he has felt he can read you and that he has a good hanle on you in general. You are beginning to step out from under his "control" and he isn't ready to let go. Also, the fact you didn't crumble into a sobbing mess that night probably has him flabbergasted. You've got him on his toes... I'm pretty sure of it.

I'd say wait on the plan B. You might not really want to recover your M at this point, so much damage has been done. And, you have to consider, do you really want to live your life looking over your shoulder and wondering if they are still in contact? You could wait until D is finalized and do a plan b for your mental health. You certainly don't need him bringing you down into his gutter...

That call from him just bugs me. He sounded like nothing ever happened. All swept under the rug.....again. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

If he's mad at me...the whole world pays (and hears). If I'm irritated with him it's "aw, come on, honey, lets all be friends" <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

I don't think he meant a lot of it either...however, we had an understanding all through the marriage not to say things you didn't mean. If you said it, a part of you meant it. Otherwise it would not have been in your head.



I think my behavior surprised him also. He was not expecting MY reaction which is why he kept raising the bar. Saying nastier and nastier things...to get me mad too. Which it did a couple of times and then I calmed back down.

I really don't know if I even want the M to survive. I'm just really fed up. This weekend was the last straw for me. I certainly can't respect him now..and what is left without that?

Spent last night at the emergency room with DDs and WH after WH took them skating. DD12 fell and got a concussion. Will update more tomorrow.

((((fox))))

When it rains....

Thinking of you and your girls; let us know what you can whenever you can, but first, maybe some selfcare is in order right now. YOU are probably just flat out exhausted at this point.

Oh my goodness!!! I hope she's okay!

The fun just never stops around here! DD12 is fine, sore but fine.

WH picked DDs up at 3, he did not come in as I had requested in my email last week. He called DD13s cell phone and told them that he was there. They went out to him and they all left.

My sister was at my house and we left immediately after WH & DDs He saw us leave right behind him, which is what I wanted. I wanted him to know I wasn't sitting around at home waiting for his return. I had told DDs that I wouldn't be home and to call me on my cell phone if they needed anything.

Normally, when WH has DDs, I don't call them or text them (unless it is overnights, then I call them in morning and at night). I don't know why I felt the need this time but shortly after 5, I text messaged both DDs...just a short "I love you". Right after, she received the TM, DD12 called me crying. She had fallen and smacked her head really hard on the ice about 10 minutes earlier. Must be mother's intuition <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> She was crying really hard...I couldn't really understand her and didn't know how bad it was. I told her I wished I was there to give her a big hug...then I told her to go give her dad a big hug and cry on his shoulder. It seemed like everything was under control and she had mostly stopped crying.

I called her back to check on her shortly after 6. WH had taken them out to dinner but DD12 wasn't eating because her head hurt and she felt naseous.

WH was supposed to have them until 8 but he called and said he was on his way to drop them off and explained a little bit of what happened and what he did....ice pack, Tylenol, etc. I wasn't at home and they got there before I did. I pulled up just a couple of minutes after.

It was dark outside, so I walked into the house with DDs and checked DD12 head. OUCH! It had a really big lump right above her eye and was already turning purple. She was still naseous, really tired, and her head hurt pretty bad. WH did not come in and I did not speak to him as I passed his truck. (as per my email request last week) DD12 was walking/talking ok and I couldn't see how bad her head was until we got into the house.

WH had driven off but called and asked what I thought. I told him I better take her to the emergency room....it made a lump pretty fast and her feeling sick and being so tired worried me. I've had concussions before....and my mom had one where she was unconcious for 2 days, she was fine at first and then a couple of hours later lost conciousness.

WH asked that I call him when we got back. I told him I would do that...but he was welcome to come with us...then I corrected myself...not with us, but he could meet us there. He said he would meet us there. (surprised me... DD13 has been to the er numerous times because of lung problems and he never came with us....would hardly visit when she stayed overnight, saying "I hate hospitals, you know that"...like the rest of us LOVE them <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />)

Then as we were leaving, he pulled up beside me as we were pulling out of the driveway and asked if DD13 wanted to ride with him. As she was getting into his truck, he asked me what you're supposed to do when that happens. I told him he did all the right things, ice, Tylenol, etc. But HE should have called me as soon as he saw how big the lump was and I could have come there and WE could have decided to go to the ER or not. I said it nicely...but made my point.

We get to the ER and DD12 is checked by the first nurse and we are sent to sign her in....parent info, etc. Pretty much everything had to be updated since she had not been to the hospital since she was born. DDs stayed in waiting room and WH stayed with me. Being a mother/wife, all the information is just waiting at the top of my head to be asked. Social security numbers, addresses (his & mine), phone numbers, work numbers, etc. I wonder what WH thought when I gave her his new address without even pausing to think. She then asked if Dad was married...I said "yes". Cause he is...to me...for now. I'm not sure if she understoodd that Dad was standing right with me...maybe she thought because we had different addresses, that maybe this was my new husband or someething..I dunno. Anway, she didn't ask him anything....all the info came from me. Pretty typical...that's how things always happen with us. I know all the information and he just comes along to sign his name. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

When WH and I went to the waiting room with DDs. DD13 made a comment about how nice the nurse was...WH told her they had to be nice or Mom would take care of them. He then told them the story of when DD12 was born and how I yelled at one of the nurses (she deserved it!). He told it as a funny story and gave me a teasing look. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> What's up with him? Is he DONE, as he told me last Saturday night? And if so, why is he reminiscing so much? He told a few funny stories from the past.

Finally, we were taken back to one of the exam rooms, dr came in and asked some questions (which WH answered since he was there), they ran a CT scan. Then we had to sit and wait for results...more teasing and reminiscing among the 4 of us. The gave us things to watch for and then released DD12.

As we were leaving, WH gave both DDs a big hug and then turned to me, and said, "Sorry, BS". He didn't look directly at me...kind of past and then turned away. I said "you're alright, accidents happen. Bye"

He called DD12 the next morning to check on her...I had taken a picture of her head with my cell phone and then sent it to her phone.....she then sent it to him. She's pretty proud of it now. Darn kids, they love the battle scars.

He talked to both DDs on Sunday and then again this morning. When I got to work, he emailed me to ask how DD12 was feeling. He already knows.....he talked to her! I sent him back a quick note saying she is fine...still sore but looking forward to going to school to show it off.

Then there was some back and forth about what afternoon he wants this week to take them swimming. Teasingly, I told him not to drown them. He took it well and joked about it. In the last email, he said he will call me this afternoon to tell me what day Open Swim is. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> I don't want a call....I need some distance after last weekends episode. He's still acting like nothing ever happened and we are just continuing on.....

Any suggestions on what to do next, if anything. Take his call, or ask him to email me the times? My thought is I should ask him to email...otherwise he is not respecting my request of last week. Then when I go to Plan B he will test it because he won't believe I'll stick to it.

Any thoughts on this weekends events and what to do from here?

Thank you all for your support.

Any thoughts or suggestions from anyone?

I'm considering going to Plan B this weekend. The dust seems to have settled from his tantrum last weekend and I think he is in a better place to accept the true intent of the letter.

So happy to hear your DD is okay. I'm no expert, but it would seem now is as good a time as any. Make sure he realizes this is to protect your feelings. That exposure to him sets you back in your thinking. He's moving on (supposedly) you need to be able to also.

fox,

Sorry to hear the latest sitch, but glad to hear she is ok. Sounds like the accident was handled well by all concerned, your DD's, your WH and yourself, nice job!

I've just recently read your thread and really admire your inner strength and commitment. As well as your honesty about your feelings, negative or positive. I think you are doing a great job and just remember, it takes more than one person to save the marriage.

I think when you are losing your respect and love for the WH, it is time for Plan B. I can share that I did an "unofficial Plan A" for about 2 mo. before my FWH last A until D-day #2. Way too long, my son's lost respect for me and I lost respect for myself. So, there is a line, it is hard to know where it is though....

I will send prayers your way....

Fox,

If you feel like the dust has really settled, and you are ready for the darkness of no contact with WH, AND you have legalities settled, then this may be a good time. Prior to the INCIDENT, you seemed ready...

Remember, as long as you are in Plan A, do it well...then hit him with Plan B. It's like a wall that they hit, and they either know the magic words or turn around and walk away.

Draft a letter and post it here, so that others can help you. I'm really no good at the PBL, but others are...

"Your men love you, and if this was not enough, you bend when you should tilt": "Both of us trying to hide who we are, both of us unsuccessful at doing it" Had I known nothing but this, it would be enough" "This is truely knightly"
Arise Fosnhound1!
For you are truely a "Knight" in every sense of the word!!!!

So your H is still around, eh? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Ok, now plan B that WS and stop talking with him. Let him tell those funny stories to himself and know his family isn't willing to share their lives with a WS.

JMHO,
L.

Thank you all for your kind words and support. It means so much.

Yes, Orchid, H is still around....somewhere....

My lawyer was going to try to get the final court date moved as he has a doctor appt out of state. WH lawyer was fighting this a little bit. I have a call in to my lawyer to see what he has found out. Maybe if we have a little more time, my Plan B can work before the divorce is final.

I sent WH an email yesterday laying out a temporary visitation schedule and asking for his response, I have not heard back from him yet.

WH: If the girls don't have a lot of home work on Tue.. If everything goes smooth on the swimsuit buying. I'll get them dinner and should have them home by 6:30.

On Wed I'll have them home at 7:00 If something crazy happens you will be the first to know.
How is schooling going? Hope their not raking you over the coals.... I was wondering if you wanted to try to set up some kind schedule during the week for the girls would have some kind of idea.
I've talked with Kelly and I can alter my work times. I hope all is well with girls and you. It sure is nice spending time with them. Even if it is in the ER. Let me know how this sounds to you and good luck with your classes.Sorry this has taken a while to get this to ya but you know how I type.

BS: The plan for Tuesday and Wednesday this week sounds fine to me. Don't let anything crazy happen <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

For a schedule until we come to a formal agreement, I would like us to consider the following: You have them Thursdays from 2:45 to 8:00pm (starting next week) and every other weekend (Friday 2:45pm to Sunday 7pm). Homework, etc would have to be done during this time, not when they get back home. Your first weekend on this schedule would be Feb 2-Feb 4. Let me know what you think. The time I have with them is very important to me and it's hard to give up any of it.

I'd like to do one day during the week for a few weeks and keep an eye on how they do with schoolwork, etc and then we could talk about more days.

I am not giving in on the fact that I do not want them to meet her, it will never be ok to me. This time should be spent with YOU. They love and need you, without distractions. I'm glad you are enjoying your time with them, they enjoy it too. It's hard for me, but I know you all need it.

Take care of yourself. BS

It irritates me that he is now all friendly after his big blow up last weekend. It makes me feel like I am being the unreasonable one!

Wow Fox,

How do you handle this? I mean to hunt you down and disrespect you, now acting like that didn't happen and being nice and funny...just wow is all I can say, the fog is thick. He definitely wants you as a friend, he seeks you out. I thought I read where you told him you didn't want to be his friend, either a recovered M or just co-parenting. I happen to agree with this, I couldn't be my FWH either. He actually said this to me a couple of times, I hope we can still be friends. My response, with friends like WH I don't need enemies!

Anywho, I like your response, somewhat playful but very direct. Are you plan A'ing, planning to go to Plan B, or don't know at the momement?

I'm not really in plan anything right now. I'm on my way to Plan B. I was hoping to have visitation worked out first but WH keeps dragging his feet. Our final court date is next Wednesday so I'm quickly running out of time.

I just got off the phone with my lawyer with the first round of negotiations. He told me what WH plan is for custody. I agreed mostly with...but not on others. So he is taking my "rebuttal" back to WH lawyer. WH lawyer told mine that we should be able to have an agreement done by the end of this week.

I will send my Plan B letter to WH tomorrow after 2:45 when he is picking up DDs. He will get it first thing Thursday morning....then the testing will begin I'm sure. Please wish me luck.

The D is going through at this point no matter what I do. Plan B is only going to be protection for me......healing and moving forward with my life without WH. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

(((Fox)))

I understand that last statement and your confusion. Do you still love your H (not WH, of course)?

I can safely say that I still love my H, but I'm fairly sure that I am ready to move for a D this summer. I will probably remain in a Plan B state even after D. I'm still not in sync, so I will wait for it, but I think it's coming, I can 'feel' it, my WANT to recover eroding away...

Although these interactions with your WH are VERY difficult and gut wrenching, try to stay the course of Plan A until you go dark...

You will have your own period of withdrawal, so be prepared for lots of thoughts to come at you; in time, the quiet comes and clarity follows...I know it sounds trite, but just take one day at a time; don't think too far ahead, let things come to YOU. Relinquish whatever control you believe you have over the sitch, and gain control of yourself. Do things for YOU. I've taken to hanging out MUCH more often with friends, and indulging in my shoe addiction...

You WILL be happy again, maybe even Happier, and peace will come...

I still love my H some......less each day that this continues. I always felt like I loved him more than he loved me. I'm afraid if recovery ever were to happen, I would question even more what he felt and always be waiting for him to give up again. Would he run at the first bump...or the second....or the third? Or could/would he change enough? Could I trust that change to be permanent?

I deserve more than that...I deserve to KNOW if my spouse loves me, not wondering what I'll do next that will give him an excuse to leave me again. His INACTION spoke to me much louder than his words.

My WANT to recover has also eroded...until it's almost completely gone. And I'm afraid of that too....I KNOW WH will come back at some point. Then it will be me that is unwilling to restore our family.

On days like yesterday, where I had to discuss custody with my lawyer, I find myself in the same panic I used to be in. I have to fix this! This can't happen! What do I do? After a while I step back and realize....it's happening anyway and no matter what kind of panic I get into...it's going to happen because WH wanted it to. And I have to accept it all over again......and somehow I find that place again where I am ok. I find that spot to rest in my own head...without getting in a panic and an uproar to stop it. It is what it is.

I'm almost looking forward to the final court date. I need this to end and to move on. I cannot move on until this is finished. It will be a relief to know how much money I will have every month and then figure out what I am going to have to do to balance out the rest. WH has had way too much power in this. I have to stop letting his moods effect mine so much. I'm counting on Plan B to help me with that.

Today is Plan B day. WH is picking DDs up from school to take them swimming. I will send the Plan B letter by email to him at work...he should receive it first thing tomorrow morning.

I'm afraid of doing it, but know I have to. For my own sanity. As recent as yesterday, I found out a new detail about his actions this past summer with OW.....and it stabbed me all over again. I have to get out or I'll continue to be drug down. He needs to save himself, I just can't do it.

Thank you for staying with me and giving me your point of view, it is extremely helpful. I'm too close to see the right direction. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

I'm assuming you have read a bunch on Plan B and are prepared to go very dark.

Who is your intermediary???

Are they prepped and ready to go???

Do they know/realize that there job is to protect you from all interactions, other than emergencies and cordinating exchanges of the children such that IF and/or WHEN WH comes to his senses and ends his affair you MAY still have a little bit of love left in your love bank which will enable the two of you to at least pursue a recovery?

Meaning...your intermediary is NOT a marriage coach and need not get involved in passing along details, comings and goings, info about OW, etc. There job is NOT to fix things but just be a conduit and filter of logistical information.

Mr. Wondering

I'm glad your back, Mr. Wondering

I have read up on Plan B and will go absolutely dark. My mother is the intermediary and is aware of her role and how to protect me. I don't think she will have to do much.... WH will not confide in her in any way and will probably never contact her to make changes for the kids. They did not get along well during our M and less so now. She will be civil but stick only to facts with him.

Thank you for checking in with me. I expect these next few weeks to be fairly difficult. Finalizing the divorce and absolutely no contact. My heart still wants to accept all those little crumbs he keeps handing out, but my head knows better.

Where is the best place to learn more about Plan B? I've read the articles on this site and SAA....is there anything else?

I don't know off hand. Hopefully, someone will come along and post a link.

I did want to insure that you explicitly inform your mother, as intermediary, to keep her opinions out of the delivery of information. She is going to want to protect you and MAY tend to express a lot of negativity to you even keeping a semblance of hope alive. Getting you to give up is not her job. Just express that you are not ready to date anyway and you're really not that hopeful but this process (Plan B) is about YOU getting peace and making your own personal journey towards recovery. IF WH ends his affair and expresses an interest in recovery...you MAY remain open to the possibility; however, you can express to her that otherwise you have no intention of becoming friends with him.

Affairs end. This process will also place the greatest burden on the affair that you can possible place. OW will be responsible for all his needs and he hers. He will remain miserable without YOU to blame. At the very least you want to take the best approach possible to sever their relationship in the quickest amount of time to get her away from your family forever...regardless of any divorce.

Trust the process.

Mr. Wondering

p.s.- will the divorce paperwork include the restriction on overnight guests or exposure to OW. This restriction is a bit risky because it would be nullified if they marry. You don't necessarily want to hurry their marriage along but then again, pressure to get married if WH is not ready or willing to marry OW may be just what the doctor ordered. Your call.

p.p.s.- The actual divorce MAY work for you too. WH will then be a free man and OW will need to compete with ALL other available single women out there instead of just you. He'll find out soon enough that he is still miserable and may just start blaming her (cause it can't be him, he's great). Thus, he may initially decide to just become single and end the affair. Then, as an after-thought, noticing how strong and secure you have become, begin to consider and pursue reestablishing a relationship with you. They nearly ALL try to come back someday.

I'm trying...I really am. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> I hope this is the right path. I do know what I was doing wasn't working..... can't continue to do the same thing and expecting something different.



I talked to my lawyer again yesterday about including a restriction on overnight stays. My lawyer is sure that the judge won't go for that....it just isn't typical and may make the judge think I am being unreasonable. However, we are going to try to work it in to the negotiation end of it before it even goes to the judge. The judge doesn't have to agree...as long as WH does. I can guarantee you that WH does not want ME having overnight stays at all...let alone when DDs are there. Not that I would, but WH may think so since he thinks it is ok for him.

My laywer is pretty adamant that I cannot put restrictions on DDs meeting her after the divorce. He believes a judge will think that is over the top and a judge will not do it since it is not "typical".

OW and WH cannot marry after WH and I are divorced. She is still married. Her H is trying to get a legal sep done but she is dragging her feet. She keeps telling him she doesn't know what she wants to do. WTF? I believe she is doing it because she has the upper hand as far as their son is concerned. She is able to tell him when he can have his son and when he can't. Most of the time they are pretty flexible but there have been instances where he made her mad and she asked him if he ever wanted to see his son again. And...she doesn't have to make a decision she can continue to do whatever she wants to do and he is supposed to sit there and wait for her to decide. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />



I expect this to be a big LB between them. Once he is D, why isn't she at least working on it. OW is telling her husband they stay out of each other's business. What goes on between WH and I is not discussed and what goes on between OW and her H is not discussed. I doubt it...how could it not be, if you're so in love and looking forward to a long term relationship? How could it not be important to know what is going on with your "partner".

I believe the D is going to be the smack between the eyes that WH needs. It could be too late, but I really think it will have a huge effect on him. Feb 24 is 6 months since they moved in together. I have a feeling things are going to be much different for them by then. Especially when I have disappeared from the equation and they can only look to each other for "happiness". (gag)

Just sent PBL to WH....he should get it first thing tomorrow morning. I really hope I did the right thing....

My gut tells me that it is right....but I'm second guessing myself already.

Oh Fox, You have soooo done the right thing IMO. If only for yourself. I only wish you would have done it sooner. I got all choked up reading your stitch today. So much has happened, you must be utterly exhausted! You have truley handled yourself with dignity and respect and I am so proud of you! You are truely amazing!

MrWondering is sooo funny!
heh heh
good one!
He's great, heh heh

MB

****************************************
What we see depends mainly on what we look for.
****************************************

Fox,

These next few weeks will be an adjustment to what you are used to; some good, some not necessarily bad, but difficult to get used to. I don't think that a D will be the end in this one, I don't KNOW, but it sounds like there is just too much that your WH cares about with you. I don't really think you would have seen the commotion that you have if he didn't have some connection with you. Jealousy, well, it speaks for itself.

Now, with that being said, remember that you need to begin to live YOUR life; no more putting things on hold thinking that you would like to wait for some of those decisions until things are more concrete. Live life as if you are a single mom. I'm sure you already feel the crunch, having to do most EVERYTHING yourself.

I have been in Plan B since October (3 mos) and am really beginning to feel better, happier, daily...It took me some learnin and detachin, but I've gotten to a place where I feel WHOLE again. My old self is coming back. I don't think I will ever be as bubbly and happy as before, but I will be as much of a smart alack, and jokster...the naiveness is gone, and will not return.

You are doing what is best for you, as you WILL feel better, and your children need a happy Mom. Hang in there!

As a side note, my boss has come down pretty hard against PERSONAL use of the computer, so I prolly won't be posting during the day, and will have to play catch-up at night. You will get great advice from so many, that I don't think you will miss out on much...

FNH - You are doing right by plan Bing him, if anything, for your own sanity.

We are here for you!!

Thank you all for your support and kind words. I truly appreciate it. Please watch me closely...I may have to call out for you to talk me out of calling him, especially if he doesn't try to contact me at all. My resolve is strong, though, I am going to do this.

SL, I understand the work commputer situation...please catch up with me when you can.

Well, Day #1 in Plan B, let's get to it.......

"Please watch me closely..."


Will do. You can do this!!!!

Most likely he'll react as your efforts to control the situation goes against the fantasy of everyone just gettin' along and ending up happier and friendly.

Sometimes...their pride interferes and they go silent just to punish you for taking a stand. They sense the loss of control and feel manipulated thus they consider the most likely way to manipulate you back is to go silent themselves.

Other times, they feel temporary relief that they finally got what they wanted. It takes a few days for the withdrawal to commence and they come roaring back to change the situation and get you out of Plan B.

I'd guess your husband will take tact one and fight Plan B from the get go.

Additionally, YOUR withdrawal will be your biggest enemy. You've been together for a really long time and your mind will try to convince you to give in to contact. Your mind will rationalize and create emergency reasons why you MUST respond to this or that and that one little contact is OK. We can't do this for you. Sink or swim. It DOES get better with time.

Mr. Wondering

Yup, it's my own withdrawal that I'm most worried about. Finding those little things to try to make an excuse to contact him....just to stay in it a little bit. But I won't, parent-teacher conferences are coming up and I've already notified him of those before sending PBL. Now it's just a matter of figuring out how to deal with him when we are both there, without giving him any "extra" contact. Conferences aren't until Feb 12 so I have a little time to figure out the best way to do it. The last conference is when he told me he was ready to "talk" whenever I was. I knew it wasn't going to be recovery talk, just excuses as to why he did what he did.

Tonight I'm taking all the wedding pictures, reminders, etc down around the house. DDs have wedding pictures of us in their rooms. I will remove and put away anything that is about him. The last will be my wedding rings....but not until D papers are signed on Wednesday.

Feb 12 will be 2 weeks from the 6 month anniversary of when they moved in together. It seems so close, but we all know how quickly things can change. Either way, I'm moving forward. Once the D is final and I know what my finances are going to look like, I am going to begin the search for a new house. Start fresh.

My guess is that WH will not contact me for at least a week (although we will see each other at the D hearing). His pride will be in the way...or he'll simply thing he is trying to honor my request to leave me alone. You know, cause he is such a sensitive guy) <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" /> At most, I think it will take him 2 weeks to try to break me. Then he'll find little things to call me about. Of course, only related to DDs but then will want to get into other things. I have caller id at work and have already asked that someone else answer it when he calls. My cell phone is set to not ring or vibrate when he calls, I change that only when he has DDs in case of an emergency. He is blocked from my email, and I have caller id at home. I think I have most everything covered, now it's just a matter of not giving in when he does try.

I know you can't do it for me....but knowing you're all behind me gives me strength to do what I know has to be done. Thank you, again.

The pictures in daughters room may be a bit overboard. By all means if DD is for it too, then OK. But I'd give doing that some thought.

W

The pictures in DDs rooms have been there a while. I'm not getting them new ones...just not removing the ones they already have.

fox,

Your approach is pretty natural. I had begun packing WH's things up not long after our second separation, and placed them in the detached garage. Now I have asked him to remove MOST of his things. I don't know if it will work, but I feel the need to capture my own space.

Maybe the actual search for another home, and moving will help spurn your STBxWH into thinking...maybe not...I wholly understand the need to press on, and start fresh.

Sometimes, when I'm sitting here expressing something, it hits me, [email]D@mnit[/email], my M is over, and a sense of bewilderment comes over me. It only lasts a few seconds, but I STILL have a hard time with acceptance. I just felt like telling you that because it just happened.

Don't be surprised it WH DOESN'T attempt to call, and pulls the silent treatment on you. Don't let that set you back. My WH has ALWAYS respected my Plan B, to the extent that I have to begin to believe that he REALLY never wanted to work it out...

Removing the pictures has actually helped a great deal. Sometimes just sitting there watching tv, my eyes would wonder to the wedding pictures that were sitting on the top of the entertainment center....even on days where I felt I accepted what has happened and there is no going back. I see those pictures and I get the same feeling. Bewilderment....what the heck happened? And where did that guy in the pictures go? Will he ever be back? Should I be here when he does want to come back? There is no question in my mind that he will eventually want to come back, but at what cost to me?

I feel like I can't sit and wait for him to "get it" forever, that I'm only putting my life and DDs lives on hold when it may make no difference to him at all. And then sometimes I feel like I am giving up too soon. And I question how much I really must have loved him when I feel this intense need sometimes to be rid of him.

I'm having a really hard time finding the right time to completely let go. How do I make sure I spend enough time and effort to recover the M but not too much where I am sacrificing myself? I'm having a difficult time finding that balance.

I'm sorry, SL, that you are still have those moments too. I think it is so hard to come to the final absolute acceptance because we know in our hearts that we would be willing to work on it....and still can't understand why they are not.

WH will not contact me for a little while, I think. He'll try to make it work with OW and continue forcing what he thought he had in her. Because he lost so much, HE will have a hard time with accepting his fantasy didn't go his way. I think he will eventually try to contact me....the way our talks were going before the blowup at the rodeo...there is no doubt in my mind that he was having second thoughts. And he was very confused by this...why did he still have feelings for me when he supposedly was so happy with OW? The fog was lifting somewhat, I think. I also think if the blowup would not have happened, he would have tried to fence sit for a long time. When he found out about the rodeo, I think it smacked him between the eyes that I would not be waiting forever and that someone else may eventually want me. That wasn't my intention and that is not why I went, but that is what I think he felt about it.

This is the 4th day in Plan B. I have changed my route to pick up DDs after school so I do not pass by his house. If at all possible, I leave the room when DDs are talking on the phone to WH so I don't overhear what he is doing or hear his voice over the phone.

The last couple of days have been difficult emotionally just because the final D date is on Wednesday and I think I am still in a little bit of shock and some denial too. But the final D date is coming....and is forcing me to see reality. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> I just can't believe that this is what he wants.

Fox,

I don't think I could have said any bit of your post better. That is exactly how I am feeling.

I've been asking myself many of the same questions: Do I hang in there and wait it out, to see what may happen? How long should I wait? I don't want to wait too long, meanwhile, WH is truly well on his way in his new life. It's a very difficult situation...that's the part about no contact that I do not like; no idea of where WH is headed, so I must make these decisions myself.

I've said this before, but I will have to make the decision to file for D. I know that I could have done this at any time, after his A, but following MB, I've tried to hang in there. I feel much like a fool, waiting for some sign, something within myself to show me the answer. The truth is, if I wanted to, I could wait forever, but my PRIDE is pushing me to go for the D this summer. I really don't know what I'll do, as it is 6 months away...

I think all of the things that you are doing to avoid your WH will help you to detach a bit more, and even get over him more and more. A broken heart is a broken heart, and it must heal...

I see pics of WH, and I am in the same state of dismay; Where did he go? I still feel emotion come to the surface and grab my throat, trying to force me to cry, but most days, I do not.

Fox, I don't think this is really what your H wants, but PRIDE can cause many a man/woman to do many a crazy thing, and could force even the best leader to stay the course of a bad choice...

SL,



I think that is the point of Plan B....to have no idea where WH is headed and to have to make those decisions by ourselves. I, too, find this VERY difficult. Especially, after feeling like WH was maybe turning around. I think we need to realize that our lives our OURS, not to be decided by WH and what they do or don't do. That is so hard..... my WH and I have been making decisions together for more than 15 years....awful hard to do it on my own now. But I will, and it will make me stronger. My life is MINE, no matter what he does. Easy to say, harder to accept and act on....but I'll get there.



You're not a fool, at all. You're a human with honest feelings. The answer will come when you are ready to accept it. Six months is a long ways away...and then not so long. I thought everything was fine in my M, in April of last year we had signed a buy/sell on house....and then two short months later my H was was telling me he didn't love me anymore. Many things can change in 6 months....the decision will get easier, I'm sure of it.



Yes, I think pride will be a huge block for WH, not being able to admit he was wrong. But I think sometimes that is just an excuse.....WH keeping his pride is more important than having his family back and doing what it takes to recover and be happy. Pride is just an excuse not to take action.

I don't think I said this well...but I think you understand.

How are you today FNH? Holding up okay?

Thank you for checking in with me, familycomesfirst.

Yeah, I'm doing okay. This weekend was rough but I think it's because I had too much free time on my hands.

I called my lawyer, had to leave a message, of course. He has not returned my call yet. He had told me last week that the court date may be moved..especially if we were in the process of negotiating. I don't know where that is now. If it's going to happen, I'd rather it just happen right now.

I wouldn't mind holding it off a little bit, let those cracks widen some more. Financially, I just can't do that. I have to get this straightened out this month or I'm really going to get in a financial mess.

Hopefully, I will hear from my lawyer soon.

I just pulled up the docket for the judge we are scheduled to see. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> We're there. At 1:30 on Wednesday.

WH vs BS, like we are at war...one versus the other. Another kick to the gut..... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/teary.gif" alt="" />

Sometimes in court, when the lawyers are all done making their arguments and even if a settlement agreement has been negotiate and is being entered, the Judge MAY ask the parties...you and your husband...if you have any comments or concerns. You can even request such opportunity.

If I were you (and I know how nervous this makes people to even consider but you may only get one shot at this)...I would at that time, in open court, maybe even reading from a prepared statment, indicate the following to the judge.

"Your honor, I do have one request that my attorney advised me not to discuss in all the negotiations because he felt that it may make me appear mean or vindictive, however, now that the agreement has been presented to the court for your approval and I have played by the rules, I respectfully request that you insert a clause into your order approving such negotiated settlement agreement a clause of your liking whereby my very soon to be ex-husband is forbidden from having unrelated overnight guests of the opposite sex at any time he has custody of our children, forbidding him from exposing/introducing/socializing our daughters specifically to his mistress, Mrs. _______ and/or whatever you deem appropriate and for whatever period of time you deem appropritate. I humbly make this request on behalf of my daughters who need, at least, some time to transition and come to terms with this sudden adjustment in their lives without having forced interaction with the up to now unknown interloper and destroyer of their family. Thank you."

Have the same typed up and prepared to read. You may even be able to just present it to the judge without having to read it in court...but doing it in open court would perhaps be more effective at shaming WH and the OW (and also perhaps causing love busters because WH failed to object or stand up for her). Even if you don't get it...at least you said it and it will forever be on the record...which will feel good to you. YOU matter too.

Mr. Wondering

p.s. - I disagree with your attorney that requesting the above makes you look bad. As long as it's presented as you looking out for you daughters and demonstrates concern ONLY for their best interests...it's fine. Your lawyer works for you. He knows that in negotiations of a settlement agreement that such language becomes difficult to negotiate and wants you to place nice. The whole system is designed for everyone to play nice. It's bucking the "nice" system that's the problem here...but darn it...this IS important. I think you should present the above language to your attorney and have him consider bringing it up at the last moment of the negotiations. Perhaps he can state to opposing counsel "All right, we are done we have an agreement; with one exception, I will be requesting that the judge include the following clause into the final order at his discretion and for whatever length of time he considers reasonable. What he's saying to opposing counsel is this isn't a negotiation because we know you won't want the restriction and we do. Let's just agree to allow the judge to determine it and be done with it.

Good luck

I really like that idea, Mr. Wondering. If I need to I will definately try to work that in. Yes, it will be difficult, emotions will be running high, I'm sure.

However, I may not need to. WH conceded in his recent proposal that there will be a certain "phasing in" of OW into DDs lives. Supposedly, he isn't expecting to immediately have DDs start having overnights with her there. But eventually they will. I don't know yet what timeline he is thinking of or how that can be worked in legally. Will they actually give him a date? I'm surprised that he would concede to restrictions on when DDs can be around OW. I really hope he is thinking of DDs and not just trying to look like the father of the year to everyone else.

Fox,

First, I want to say thank you for your insight on my sitch. I know that this is all FRESH for you, but you have a talent for explaining a situation and describing your feelings in regards to that.

MrWondering has posed a good approach to 'phasing' OW into your DD's lives (we all know you would prefer her never to see them). I'll have to take that gem with me, if'n I get a divorce...

D is not the end, from all that I've heard here. I wonder if some WS's don't need a clear-cut end to the M, in order to start anew. I know that sounds ridiculous, but I've seen and heard crazier.

I feel pressure, to do the right thing, to stay M or not. My WH wouldn't have filed for LSA, nor will he file for D. I have to read whether that is because he doesn't want to, or he is just lazy, or he doesn't care, because he has continued a R with someone else INSIDE M. I don't know the truth, and I must ferret it out as best I can. I sometimes wish that he had filed for a D, so I wouldn't have to shoulder that burdon. My sitch has been ongoing for almost 2 years now.

I see from your sig line that you've only had about 6 mos. to get used to this. Despite my setbacks, I do feel better. I have to believe that things get better and better with each passing day. Please come back and let us know how you're doing, so that you can get the support you will most definitely need.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

lemme translate phasing in the OW per the WH perspective ~~~> "as soon as I damn well want to"

be very aware
they have NO honor here

any real protection must be done LEGALLY

Pep

I agree with pb. He will want the girls to meet OW asap and think she's wonderful... gag.

Actually

He MAY think the phasing in is a good idea when not with other woman and thinking a little more clearly

It's more likely that absent legal restriction...

It will actually be the OW who will insert herself into your daughters life (to possess all that is his and to usurp YOU) and it would be contrary to the addiction for your WH to resist it.

This is an angle you can use in negotiations by speaking to WH logically and outside the presence of OW whereby you give him false kudo's for looking out for the kids and tell him that HE needs this agreement otherwise OW will likely steamroll him and insist on immediate contact. Also, sell it to him that this "phase in" will actually protect OW and his relationship with her as with time and sensitivity the kids may actually more easily come to get along with her. What OW does now could effect the children for years to come and her relationship with him and them. Maybe even throw in the fact that the kids may make his new relationship even more difficult IF they are mean to her and not ready to meet her. "WH, it's just a win-win to take this slow".

Make him think he wants the provision. Use his addiction to your advantage. Remember, his addiction (NOT the kids) are his PRIMARY concern thus only things PERCEIVED as contrary to the addiction will be resisted. Sell it.

I'd also try to hesitate making a big deal about it UNTIL you are done with the rest of the agreement. If, in the course of ongoing negotiations, he has the chance to go back to OW and discuss that particular provision she will hate it and get upset at him. She will NOT like being portrayed as a outsider and/or dangerous to the children. You want to get WH to decide this issue at the last minute and on his own. He'll give in, to get the deal done and won't consider OW's feelings if you sell it the right way.

Mr. Wondering

Good morning, all!



I think this is what he WANTS to have happen. But I also think that he knows better. I believe he is AFRAID of reality and once DDs meet her...that fantasy will be burst and he doesn't want to do that. Right now, he can continue to blame me for not letting this happen, but I would bet he is relieved also. He has conceded to me directly that he knows this is going take some time and won't rush them into meeting her. If he was going to do that, I would have thought he would have done it 2 weeks ago when he was so mad at me.

I think he has begun to think more clearly, especially when away from OW. He is asking to have DDs more and has called them more often. He has even changed his schedule so he could pick them up after school if need be. This are HUGE steps from where we were a few months ago...not in our relationship but with the relationship between DDs and WH. I really hope this he is doing this for them and not just to look good to everyone else. I think it is for them, but I don't trust his intentions anymore. It really ticks me off that he is taking these steps now, but it wasn't important enough when we were together.




I will work that angle carefully. I don't think it will be too difficult, I've already set the foundation in our other conversations, and now he is coming back with it as his own idea. That's okay.... as long as it is there, I don't care who gets credit.

It almost seems as though WH and OW do treat each other as outsiders at times. Neither one knows what is going on in the other one's marriage, other than they don't live with their spouse anymore. Or so it seems.....

I would somehow add to the statement that OW is still married and hasn't even filed for divorce.

If the judge imposed a restriction on that it would be quite a long time before the skank could be around your DD's!

Well, I really didn't think it would happen, but WH contacted my mother today to request days with DDs. At the time, I didn't understand why he wanted to be working out days right before the final hearing, but now I do. The hearing has been continued.

WH called my mother and told her that I didn't want him to call me anymore and that he was supposed to go through her about DDs. She said, yes, I know. Then he told her he wanted DDs tomorrow after school until 7pm and then Mon, Wed, & Fri after school until 5 when I could pick them up at his mothers. My response is below (via my mother):

Good morning, Mom

Hope all is well with you today. Thanks again for being an intermediary. I know it is a bit awkward for all of us but I really appreciate it. I know it seems a bit silly but I feel it is really what I need. You saw me when I came back from having those long talks with him....it isn't good for me to get all torn up and to be so drained for so long afterwards. I have to go on with my life and this is the first step towards doing that. Thank you for understanding.

As we discussed this morning, I'll email my understanding of his request to you and what I agree to and then you can just forward it to him. That way he and I both know exactly what is expected and you aren't caught in the middle with all those questions that pop up about the details. His email address is ######

As I understand it, WH has asked to have DD13 and DD12 on Wednesday, 01/31/07, from 2:45pm to 7:00pm. I need to know what the plan is after school...where are they supposed to go, is WH picking them up? We have to be in court at 1:30pm on Wednesday and I doubt we will be done by 2:45pm. I don't mind if they go with him on Wednesday, but I need to know what the plan is for after school. They need to have homework done and he needs to give them dinner before he brings them home at 7:00pm.

He's also asked to have them Monday, Wednesday, and Fridays from 2:45pm to 5:00pm. He says I could pick them up at WH mother's at 5:00. I need to have more information on this one. Is he picking them up after school or are they walking to WH mother's, or elsewhere? Is this time to be spent with him or his mother? This one could get difficult as volleyball and rodeo start. When would this begin, when would it end? Not completely out of question, but I need more info. My first inclination is to let it be decided tomorrow in court....I'm pretty sure he'll have at least one evening during the week. I dunno, though....need more info before I'll negotiate this issue.

Thanks again, I really appreciate it.

Talk to ya later!
BS

After sending this email, my lawyer called me back and said the hearing had been continued. We will not know when until the end of the week when my lawyer and WH lawyer get together to reschedule with the judge. It could be a couple of weeks, it could be a month. I imagine this is why WH was trying to set up dates, he already knew it had been continued. I don't like him knowing before I knew, especially when my lawyer is the one that requested the change.

After hearing this, I called my mother to let her know that WH may contact her to let her know the date has been changed and that he wants to set up a schedule in between. As we were talking, WH called her cell phone...she did not pick up and he left a message. I don't know why he didn't just email her back, that seems easier and less confusing for everyone.

Part of me wishes just to get it over and done with and the other wants to drag my feet until I KNOW D is what is best. I think it is right now, but I don't KNOW yet.

Please give me your thoughts....

1. Don't have her forward your emails to him. Then he is reading your words and getting a piece of you. It's contact.

2. He knew about the continuation first because your attorney sent his attorney a fax or email requesting. His attorney called your husband and got the OK from him before responding to your attorney. Typically, continuations are then summarily approved by the court assuming both sides are in agreement and file a jointly signed continuation.

Mr. Wondering

How do I handle it to get all the right info? He leaves out all the details that are important...times, who is picking them up or dropping them off, where they will be and with whom. Maybe give my mom a standard set of questions that she can go over when/if he calls so I make sure to get the details? I'm trying to make it less uncomfortable for her..but she says she is fine however I want to handle it. I just feel awkward telling her to tell him something he isn't going to like.

I can see your point about the continuation...but I would have thought my lawyer would have let me know that it was a definate....not wait for me to call to make sure I didn't have to show up in court tomorrow! I didn't even know what time court was supposed to be until I pulled up the judges docket on the website. It's a bit frustrating to be out of the loop.

I can see how this email thing is not going to work... the following is the response my mother got from WH.

Sue,

Yes, I agree with BS in the fact that this is 'a bit silly'. We are adults and should be able to communicate in a civil manner. I regret that she has put you in this position. This was her choice and hers alone. I have tried in the past to keep an open line of communication for the sake of DD13 and DD12. This was the way she wanted it in order for her to move on with her life.

I feel we need a set schedule for DD13 and DD12so they know when they will be with their Father and when they will be with their Mother until the courts decide otherwise.

A set schedule would give stability to the girls in knowing who they will be with and when. This will also benefit BS and allow her to move forward with whomever she chooses and have no further contact with me aside from emergencies relating to the girls.

To answer BS questions below:

For the days I have them after school, I will let the girls know whether I am picking them up or if they are walking to my mother's or elsewhere.

As far as volleyball and rodeo, I would expect a schedule to be either mailed or given to the girls to be given to me. At which time, we can negotiate time changes.

This schedule to start Monday, Feb 5th and go through the end of the school year to begin again the following school year.

The times are 2:45pm to 6:00pm Monday, Wednesday and Friday.

On Wednesday the 31st, I will be picking up the kids after school. BS can pick them up from my mother's at 7:00pm.


Again, I am sorry you are stuck in the middle. Hope this answers all the questions and that this removes you from the middle of this childishness.

Take care of yourself and SIL18.

Always, WH


I think this bothered him a little bit... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> I'm preparing my response now. Not responding to anything other than the facts of DDs. Dates and times...that's it.

Anu suggestions on how to do this better?

oKay I am in this same boat now, and I have my own opinions to share with you...

Flipping the kids during the week which seems to be balance for the parents sucks for the kids, my daughter's have been doing a M-W dinner time with the non custodial parent for the past 3 weeks since our court order 50/50. Since then girls have left homework at grandma's when WW couldn't pick the kids up and grandma did, so in that one day, the kids transitioned 3 times. From school to MIL, to mine, to WW.

You also have to wonder if he is doing this for court, and you also have to be careful home you frame your response so its not used by him on you in court.

Does he get them every other weekend? I would think each week on Wednesday is fair because the kids have the rest of the week to be kids, everytime the kids transistion they go through trauma/drama

So in NC, the no overnights was standard in our court order custody.

I hate to say this but don't advise him about how to be a parent, if he has the kids they need to do their homework, treat him as an equal parent.... If your kids grades go down the next semester you can use that to your benefit. Make sure you have regular documented conferences with your kids teacher's

Thanks for your opinions, vikingruler

My plan is to only give one evening a week with him, on Mondays, until otherwise set by the court. He will pick them up afterschool or make arrangments for them to go somewhere and then he can bring them home at 6 or I will pick them up after work at 5:10. I live about 20 miles out of town and don't think I should have to wait around in town for him to get done or have to come back into town.

I see your point about the homework and not telling him what to do. But DD13 already struggles with homework and by watching her grades fall and then doing something about it.....is too much for her. If said it this once to him and now I'll let it go. DD13 is also responsible for getting her homework done.

Every other weekend is not set up yet...though, I would be willing to as long as they were not in contact with OW. He has not asked for that.

I do wonder if he is doing this for the court....and how to respond the "right" way. In his email he sounded all concerned and willing to do whatever it took for the DDs, but where was all this concern and willingness since D-day? Just now he is starting to play the role a concerned parent. He was never concerned about sports, school, etc. I took care of all of that...he showed up when it was convenient.

I do have to admit that this email thing is a pain...easier than directly to each other. Some of what he says really gets to me and I want to rebut everthing...just like the "a set schedule would give stability to the kids". I have been trying for months to get him to do this! And NOW he is all concerned about their stability. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

The following is my response to him, probably not handled correctly but it is what it is:

Wednesday, January 31, 2007. - WH picks DDs up from school at 2:45pm, does homework and dinner, and he brings them home at 7:00pm. Non-negotiable, if he doesn't bring them home at 7:00pm, they don't go. This must be confirmed by 9:30pm, tonight, 01/30/07. He may either call you or he can tell DDs that he agrees to this.

WH: [color:"blue"] For the days I have them after school, I will let the girls know whether I am picking them up or if they are walking to my mother's or elsewhere.

This schedule to start Monday, Feb 5th and go through the end of the school year to begin again the following school year.

The times are 2:45pm to 6:00pm Monday, Wednesday and Friday."
[/color]


The weekday schedule can start Monday, Feb 5th, 2007, but only for Mondays from 2:45pm-6:00pm and only until a court order is determined. If they are with him until 6, he must feed them dinner and he must bring them home. If he needs me to pick them up, I will do so at 5:10pm, not 6:00pm. Again, non-negotiable, if he can't bring them home or he doesn't want me to do it at 5:10pm, they don't go.

I tried to stick with just the facts. But it looks kinda bit++y when I reread it, but I don't know how to not have it sound that way and still stick to the facts.

My mother sent WH back an email trying to explain to him why I needed to do it this way and asking him to understand how devastating this whole situation was for me.

This whole scenario doesn't sound very Plan Bish...I'll have to work out the kinks. His email just made me mad all over again. I'll have to talk to my mother about weeding out the "extra" bs or figure out a different way to handle this. Grrrr...I thought Plan B was QUIET!

Please offer suggestions (and I'm expecting 2x4s over my email back to him). I just don't know where the heck he gets off being gone for months (even prior to D-day) and then comes back now telling me what the schedule is going to be "for DDs stability". <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

I understand your dilemna. I had a very similar set up. My best friend WAS handling communications between us, and acting as general intermediary, but found it too traumatizing; she felt awkward. I had no choice but to let her GO. So, Now, I have no intermediary. I'd like to see what others suggest here. I don't really have much of a choice when it comes to this; I've already exhausted two intermediaries.

Hmmmm, if your mother filters out emotion as it's being transferred to your WH, then I don't see a problem with what you stated. She could just say that DD's schedule will be such...If there are REAL problems with this, please iron them out this evening. I wouldn't mention what they should do while with him. Honestly, just tell your DD's what their responsibilities are on those days, and let them be responsible for them.

I think just tell him that he may have them Mondays from this time to that, then they are to be driven home. That's it. He's a grown man and can fend for himself.

In a perfect world, where supportive friends and family are oozing from the woodwork, I would say Plan B can be very Dark; for me, it has been MOSTLY dark. I don't really have a way around that right now. Honestly, I totally get the concept, but maybe need to talk to one of the Harleys for my particular sitch. Really, for me, emails are just the facts.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> I broke Plan B. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

Yes, I did it. Questioning myself the whole time whether I should or not and making excuses as to why it was necessary.

After reading and rereading and rereading the emails between him and I yesterday, I felt like I didn't handle it very well and that I told him how it was going to be whether he liked it or not. And I probably shouldn't have done that...although that is what it felt like he was doing to me too. I felt like I needed to let him know that I was not trying to be difficult and I did see the importance of DDs spending time with their dad. I'm not sure whether it was worth it or not, WH was a jerk.

We did get a schedule worked out....different than what either of us had said via email yesterday. I didn't give him all he wanted but more than I had initially said.

He'll have DDs two evenings a week, Mon & Thurs after school until 7:30. We had a bit of a disagreement over overnight stays with him...he would not confirm that they would not stay at his house when OW was there. I don't think he was actually going to do it but he wouldn't tell me he wasn't. So... no overnights scheduled until decided by the D. I would be willing for that to happen if he were to ask for them and make arrangements so they would not be around OW.

He then asked whether I was going to be involved when he started phasing in OW. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> What?! Like I'm going to stand there and introduce them all? I don't think so! I told him, no, I would not be involved. As far as I'm concerned it will never ever be ok. He asked if I at least wanted to know when he was going to do it. I said yes, but I do not agree with it.

When we were talking about the schedule for DDs. He said he thought that whoever wanted them had to come get them from the other parent. So when he wants them after school he will go pick them up...if I want them back, I have to come pick them up from him. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> Supposedly, he doesn't have enough money for gas to bring them home. Boo hoo He should have money, he's not supporting his kids. I have to admit to a LB here....I told him as the "visiting" parent, he needed to figure out the transportation. I would be willing to help at times but not always have to go pick them up from him. He didn't like the visiting parent comment, but it's true.

I think OW was pretty close....I didn't hear H in there at all. ALL of it was WH. And, of course, I ended up crying and trying to explain to him why no contact between us was necessary. He says he doesn't understand it all, that we should be able to talk civilly like adults for the sake of the kids.

I don't know why I try to explain...it doesn't mean anything to him.

At least we have a schedule now, it will not be necessary to contact him again.

And............I called him "honey" at one point when we were discussing the schedule. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> He didn't acknowledge it, I'm hoping he didn't hear it.

Hi FNH,

Well....in case it might help...here's my arrangement with WH.

When WS first moved out...for the first month....it was a bit chaotic...as he did not yet have a 'place of his own'.... when he did...it started to go smoother....

The boys alternate one week each....we are managing to be very consistent....WS always PICKS up boys...and our big dog (and whatever they want to take with them) and DROPS off....seeing WS is the one who left! ..I am NEVER there for the pick up or drop off....boys are old enough!

I have reduced communicationn with WS to one email per week for transfer info. re boys and finances...it is STRICTLY business-like....facts only....NO personal comments.... the boys can phone me or WS anytime....I never discuss what they do with WS....my older one has the key to the house...and has access at any time....and uses it...but 'officially' eats and sleeps at WS for one week....afterschool and weekends he is often at the house.....DS11 does need to call me to tell me that he 'misses' me.... I acknowledge it...get a 'reserve' of hugs when he is with me and vice-versa....but....nothing will ever 'hit the spot'....that's just the way it is...it's their NEW reality!

Yes...the boys are not 'benefitting' from two parents communicating, and inspite of WS wanting to get me to do 'friendly co-parenting', I do not feel guilty about not 'cooperating' as long as OW is in the picture....the A and WS's choices have created a 'disconnect' there that is out of my control....and by not trying to ignore this or compensate for it seems to be actually less 'stressful' all around..... the boys are living 'two' lives.....no way to get around it.... but they seem to be doing fine....it is clear that MOM will not see DAD....and why.... and that's it!

The week the boys are with me...I focus on creating a warm, cheerful 'homey' atmosphere...where friends and family are welcome...and I have a very good relationship with both my boys....issues are discussed...projects are discussed.... and they both KNOW and SEE how much I love and care for them.... whenever either mention WS....I don't stop them from doing it....but I also do not pursue or encourage it and now WS rarely comes up in the conversation except for 'necessary' arrangements!

Right now...inspite of everything...I am at a good place....focusing on the present...because I am not sure about the future....

..as a BS the hardest thing for me to do was working on getting WS to NOT monopolize my 'thinking' space..... and when I don't know what he is up to (PLAN B)...it gets easier!

..oh...and the other thing...HOW NOT TO react to WS's attempts to have me break PLAN B...

...a WS is toxic to a BS...inconsiderate & insensitive & selfish, to name a few....and unless and until OW is out of the picture....FOR SURE.....H is nowhere to be found!

Believe me, FNH, workout the kinks in arrangements... distance yourself from WS (PLAN B)... and life does get better...just hang in there!

Thank you, lunamare, for your encouragement.

I am considering "strictly facts" emails, also. But I wonder if that is too much. As others have said, contact is contact and he gets a piece of me. But if we could stick strictly to that, it might be better all the way around. I don't necessarily like my mother knowing everything that is going on. And she has enough stress problems, without me adding mine.

I don't know quite how to handle it all...but your post gave me some good perspective. I really struggle with my DDs having two separate lives. It's just so unfair to them. They didn't ask for this, but they pay the highest price.

I guess I can't control that either, life happens. We do the best we can with what we know at the time.

I'm having trouble finding that resting place again. Where the mind quiets, the thoughts stop fighting with each other for room, the doubts don't seem so big. Where I can just be. Knowing I'm ok and not questioning everything so much.

Why did he sound like he did?
Why did he say xyz?
What did he really mean?
Are intentions true for DDs?
Was he being a jerk because OW was there?
Was he a jerk because they are not getting along?
Was he a jerk because he was talking to me?
Will he always be a jerk?
Does any of that even matter?
How can I put this behind me and just go on without feeling like I need to worry about what he will think.
How do I communicate with him about DDs without him using it against me?
WHEN WILL THIS BE OVER?!

Where is that resting place and how do I get back to it!? I don't understand why WH is manuevering so much with DDs right now. Is it for DDs or is it for WH to look good for the courts or for WH to look good for OW?....and again, does it matter what the reason is?

Just venting......

I broke Plan B AGAIN yesterday...but it was kind of an emergency. Now WH called me this morning to get an update from yesterday.....I'll post the whole sitch in this afternoon.


I'm going to need some help in how to get back into Plan B after this. I think WH believes the lines of communication are back open because of yesterday's events. I'm sure he is getting mixed signals from me even when that isn't what I intend.

An example email to be sent to WS:

--------------------------------------------------------
WS:

I only contacted you directly yesterday for efficiency and because of the urgent nature of the issue.

Do not interpt this as meaning the lines of communications are open again. They are not.

If you need to communicate; please contact XXXXX.

BS

---------------------------------------------------------

Short, precise, & to the point. It leave no "wiggle" room and puts you back in the drivers seat with plan B.

Hope it is of some use to you.

Stay Strong!

What your mind tells you is an emergency often is not so. I'll await the story but you've really got to commit to finding another way to handle these things lest you might as well not even bother with Plan B.

It's hard to withdraw from someone you life has been so intertwined with for so many years. I've never had to do it myself...but I can only make an educated guess from what I've read herein just how difficult it really is.

There is always tomorrow to start getting it right. This is YOUR plan and YOUR life. Take control of it and get yourself some distance and peace lest you be unable to even consider reconciling when WH hits rock bottom and seeks you out. He will...they nearly always do, and if he doesn't, who'd want him anyway.

Good luck,
Mr. Wondering

How are you FNH? How is plan B going for you?

Hi FNH,

How are you doing?

I would agree with Mr. W...

My WS on a regular basis has tried to 'convince me' (and BS can be tempted to agree), that there is a need to 'talk' to each other...for the boys' sake, of course! ...but all it is 'cake-eating' in disguise.... if my WS really cared about the BOYS....he would consider reconciliation! ....and so would yours....but don't try to TELL him that...WSs need to find that out by themselves, or NOT!

My rule of thumb is two people 'talking' to each other...is being in a 'relationship'....and, in my case, it will not happen until OW is out of the picture..all my WS's attempts to exchange with me or offers to help have been met with one line: has A ended?

....of course, the kids would benefit from parents talking to each other! ...that's what's called being married, having common goals, etc.

PLAN B takes a great amount of discipline....and whenever you think you need to 'consult' WS....think again....if he weren't ALIVE...how would you handle it?

In my case...I resort to friends if I need to discuss things....and more often, because WS was the handyman, I am building up a 'resource' list of people to call to 'replace' WS for the handywork he did...if I can't do it myself!

Please resist the temptation to 'talk' to WS...or 'discuss' anything, even in writing......

yes....you are sending mixed messages....and you want to be sending ONE CLEAR message: OW needs to be out of the picture for you to consider ANYTHING!

It's like negotiations.....you are not even at the table...unless OW is out of the picture!

If you have an intermediary, it's best....at least for the withdrawl period that you, BS, are going through with N\C with WS!

Keep working at not THINKING about WS....by keeping very busy...

For me PLAN B is two-fold.....visualizing and working towards a life WITHOUT WS and moving forward AS IF H will never show up.....while your WS checks out how his life is WITHOUT you in it!

Keep reminding yourself of this....contact with WS does NOT allow WS to either MISS you or SEE how life is without you!

Thank you all for checking in with me. I expected Plan B to be difficult....but I really didn't think I would be the one breaking it....for crumbs. And again, I accepted crumbs, when he asked, I accepted without hardly any resisting, knowing in my head that it wouldn't get us anywhere and he wasn't going to say what I wanted to hear. Here's the story, please let me know what you think.

On Thursday morning I was on my way into town to drop DDs off at school and go to work, my mom called my cell and said something was REALLY wrong with WH horse. You never know with my mother, sometimes she makes things a big deal when they are really not. All our horses are kept on her property. It was around 30 below zero with the wind chill factor, this horse is 20 years old and has been recently dropping weight pretty badly. When my mom called she was standing in the corner of the pasture away from the rest of the horses and was swaying back and forth. REALLY BAD NEWS in the horse world.

I called the vet and left a message. Then I argued with myself back and forth on whether I should call WH. I thought I should call him for a couple of reasons.

#1 This was HIS horse before he walked off and left me with her.
#2 WH should have to pay the vet bill (I just cannot as WH is not paying ANYTHING in the way of child support and DDs come first for me)...again his horse and his responsibility.

But, I knew is was in Plan B and shouldn't call him. It was not an emergency for DDs, but....he should have take care of his responsibilities, even if it is just a horse!

So, I called WH, explained the situation to him, and asked if he would pay the vet bill. I DID NOT ask him to come help me...I just needed the vet bill paid.

BS: Hey, my mom called this morning and something is wrong with your mare.
WH: Oh yeah, what's wrong.
BS: She's standing in the corner away from everyone and is swaying back and forth. I've called the vet and left a message for her to call me back ASAP. I can't afford to pay for the vet, can you?
WH: How much is the vet going to cost?
BS: I don't know...it's $35 for just a farm call. It depends on what the vet needs to do for her. She may just have to be put down.
WH: Oh. How much do you think it would be at the high end.
BS: I really don't know..it depends on what she wants to do for her. I really don't know what is wrong, I haven't seen her yet. She may just be really cold, but she's been dropping weight pretty badly lately. She's old and this winter has been pretty tough on her.
WH: Do you want me to come out with you?
BS: You can if you want, she is yours, and than you can make a decision on how much money you want to put into her and discuss with the vet on whether she should be put down or not, depending on what her quality of life will be.
WH: Okay, you don't mind if I come out there?
BS: You can if you want to, I'll get it done either way. I'm on my way out there right now to check her out and wait for the vet to call me back.
WH: Why don't you call me when the vet calls you back.
BS: k, bye
WH: Bye

I went out in the freezing, blowing, snowing blizzard to check on HIS horse. She used to wear a heavy winter blanket but must have rolled or something and broke the strap that keep it on because it was no where to be found. I think the problem was she was VERY cold and the other horses wouldn't let her in the shelter. Anyway, I called WH to let him know what I thought we should do for her. The vet had not called me back. I told him I thought she should be on a supplement that would help her maintain a better weight and that she needed a high quality winter blanket. He asked if I would meet him in town at the feed store to pick out a good blanket and whatever supplement she needed.

This kind of ticked me off, somehow you can buy all this stuff for a horse, but not take care of your own kids?! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> Maybe they have to be left out in the freezing blizzard for him to take some responsiblity for them. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

I told him I would meet him there and he said he had to run "home" to get his checkbook. I don't know why he had to tell me that..his "home" is much closer to the feed store than I was and he would get there first. I said ok, see you there.

He calls me back a couple of minutes later and says he didn't realize it was so bad outside, he would be a little longer because he had to put his long johns on "so I didn't freeze my little [censored] off". I said ok, see you there. I don't know why he has to give me a minute by minute update. It wasn't like I was going to walk out of the store if he didn't show up exactly when I thought he should.

Anyway, we met at the feed store and I gave him a couple of options..and he asked my opinion on what we should get. The most expensive one, of course. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" /> Then we picked up the supplement and WH was asking how long it would last, etc. I told him how long I thought it would last for just his mare. He asked how long I thought it would last if I gave it to my old horse too. (Who is keeping his blanket on and faring MUCH better!) This seemed like a silly question to some degree. If I told him how long it would last for one horse, couldn't he half the amount if you are feeding two horses? Geesh. That was almost a $200 bill at the feed store.

As we are walking towards the checkout counter, WH made a comment about how loose his pants were. Which I had already noticed. After he left, he changed the kind of jeans he wore. He now wears Levi's which show the measurements on the tag on the outside. I had already looked (32 inch waist, BTW, he normally wears 34 waist 36 inseam) because they were REALLY loose and every time he went to bend over, he had to hitch up his pants so he didn't have a plumber butt. I REALLY don't like baggy butt jeans so it bugs me when I see it.

As we were on our way to the counter he made a comment about how loose his jeans were and that they were almost falling off. He then said "see", as he pulled them lower a little bit. We were kind of kidding back and forth and I said "you don't have to pull them down, silly, I don't have to see it." And kind of flirtatiously, he says "I wasn't gonna show you IT" With emphasis on IT so I knew exactly what he was talking about. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

I follow WH back out to my mother's house and he helps me put the blanket on his horse. Actually, he didn't help me. Normally, I would do it all, but I decided it was his horse, he could do it and I was about numb anyhow. So I just held the lead rope for him. I didn't want to have to take MY gloves off to work the straps! We got that all done and WH suggested we sit in his truck to warm up while his horse ate her supplement. Mine was running this whole time too and was not cold. But... I sat in his truck with him to warm up and we talked about his horse, etc. I told him I'd had my tires rotated on my truck and the mechanic found another $900 worth of work on the front end that I needed to have done. He asked what needed to be done. He used to do ALL of the mechanic work on my truck. I told him I didn't really know, they had given me a list and it was in my truck. He asked me to get the list so he could take a look at it. I went to step out of his truck to go to mine, which was a little ways away from his, but not far. He told me to wait...and then pulled closer to my truck. It was only about 10 yards away, it was not that big of a deal. But he pulled me RIGHT up next to it. I handed him the list and he looked it over, disagreeing with some of it. I told him it didn't really matter, I couldn't afford to have it done anyway. He said to hang on to the list and he would look into getting better prices for me. I told him I still had to pay someone to do all the work." He just said to hang on to the list and he'd see what he could do.

His horse finished her supplement (we were still parked by my truck which was away from the gate to the pasture), so I said I guess she's done, we can probably go now, she's looking much better. The vet never did call me back, she was on other emergency calls. I really think the mare was just cold and needed some shelter from the FREEZING temperatures. I went to step out of the truck and told me to not get out, he would drive me to the gate. Again 10 yards <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> Then HE got out and got the bucket and put it in my truck. (which he walked to) I thanked him for coming out and helping to take care of his horse and I'd let him know when the vet called.

He asked if I was hungry. I said "no, not really, you know I don't really eat breakfast. And I have to check the stock tank heaters and break the ice in some of the tanks. I'm not really done with the chores here yet" He asked if I wanted him to help me....and again, I didn't know how to handle that. One one hand, he should help, it's his responsibility too but on the other hand I didn't want any "favors" from him. He hadn't been helping all along, why is he offering now? So I told him no, that I could do it. I've been doing it and it's not that big of a deal. Meanwhile, it is still BLIZZARDING outside and I didn't know I was going to have to be out in it so I hadn't put on MY long johns. He seemed to know that I was just being stubborn and didn't want to ask him for anything. He said, "come on, I'd like to do it". So I accepted his offer. Again, he DROVE to the stock tank, told me to wait in the truck, and busted all the ice out of the tank for the water, checked the heater and fixed it so it was working correctly. I couldn't just sit there, one of the feeders had come apart so I got out and fixed that. Then we both got in his truck and he DROVE me to my truck. He again asked if I wanted to go to breakfast. I said no, I should get back to work, we have some big projects going out. He said "come on, BS, I really don't want to go back to work." And.....knowing I shouldn't, I accepted. WANTING to hear what he has to say, WONDERING if this will be the day. He asked if I wanted to ride with him or meet him there. I told him I would just meet him there since where we were going was not very far from my office. He said "why don't you ride with me and I will bring you back". I said, then you'll have to drive 10 miles back out here to bring me to my truck". He said that was okay, he really didn't want to go back to work.

Normally, I would try to explain the logic.....why drive an extra 20 miles (to bring me back to my truck and then back into town to work) when we could just meet there and save us both time and him gas. But I didn't, I wondered if this had always been a LB, me thinking to logically and explaining a better (to me) way to do things. So I told him I would ride with him and he could bring me back out.

There are a couple of different ways to get where we were going. Want to know which way he took? The one that took us directly by his house. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> On the way in, I wondered which direction he would take...and as soon as he took the corner that would take us by his house, he said quietly to himself "Oh! Why did I turn this way?" I didn't acknowledge that he had spoken. There were a couple of places he could have turned around at to go the OTHER way but he didn't.

There wasn't very much conversation. I asked about his mom, his sister and BIL, and grandma, etc. Just catching up.

And ignored the fact that we were driving past his and OW house......

We ate breakfast (which he insisted on paying for) and just small talked. Nothing heavy just all "surface" talk.

Then he drove me back out to my truck. Again, driving by his house. He's a smoker and knows I don't like to have to breath it...and he has changed his taste in music. It is now rap and he has BIG speakers in his truck.

Breakfast went ok, again just surface talk. On the ride back out, WH must have had 5 cigarettes (I HATE breathing someone else's smoke), turned up the rap music and we THUMPED the whole way out there. He also knows I HATE it when the base thumps so hard that it hurts my chest. I don't know if he is truly this inconsiderate or if he was TESTING. I said nothing the whole ride and when we got to my truck and he turned it down, I thanked him for breakfast and left. I don't know what to think of this interaction. At first, I thought he was trying to fence sit again and get a little piece of me, but then it seemed like he was TRYING to make me mad on the way back to my truck or just didn't CARE if it bothered me.

He then called the next morning to check on his horse. I said she was fine as far as I knew. I hadn't talked to my mother yet. He really didn't need to call me for that. If he wanted to know how she was, he could call my mother or go out and look himself.

That was Friday and I haven't heard from him since. Which is good.

But I will see him tomorrow night at a parent's meeting about freshman registration at the high school. Any suggestions on the best way to handle that? If he shows.

WOW!!! Um, the fastest way back to Plan B, Like the Nike slogan....JUST DO IT!

No more contact about the horse. NO more, no reason. If he really was concerned, he would run out to the pasture himself, buy a blanket, check with the vet, etc. AND that is my take, not knowing ANYTHING about horses.

Don't answer calls, no emails, no TM's, nada, nil, nuttin'. Resend the PBL if you feel the need. You can do it. Think of how WH is now, do you like him, do you want him. HE seems unconcerned with EVERYTHING. Back away, like he's on fire!

When you see him at parent's night, smile and then look away. Avoid eye contact. Avoid talking about anything at all, if possible. Try to talk to other parents. Don't look for him to take the lead here. Remember, this sort of event is about education and YOUR CHILDREN, not FUN TIME. When it's time to go, LEAVE. If he tries to strike up a conversation, well, I dunno, but I would think Plan B, think WS and reverse babble. Maybe you can get better feedback on this one, from others here. Judging from his participation in your DD's lives so far, he may not show...

Yes... don't fret, just go back to being aloof and silent if you can.

I know it's hard... hang in there FNH.

Thanks, SL. I don't know how you stayed in Plan B for so long. I'm so glad that it worked for you.

I don't think I'll have any trouble going back into Plan B and shouldn't have to resend the Plan B letter. He hasn't called since and I haven't called him.

Last evening was WH evening to have DDs. He dropped them off and didn't come in, just as I've requested.

DD13 likes to talk about what they've done when they are with WH. He had taken them shopping and bought them some new shirts (and DD13 3 inch heels <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />) and had given them lunch money.

Lately, it seems, he has started to be so much better about DDs. He calls more often (almost excessively), this is the second time he has given them lunch money, and they all seem more at ease with each other. DD12 attitude continues to be positive for 3 weeks straight...every once in a while the smart mouth returns but she gets over the snottiness pretty quick.

WH had taken DDs to Pizza Hut for dinner....and picked up pizza for OW and OW S7. He took DDs from Pizza Hut to his house <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> They waited in his truck while a took the pizza in (I don't know why she couldn't have done delivery, but whatever) DD13 said it looked like they were fighting. She could see through the window and WH was throwing his hands up and making gestures like he was mad and OW was pointing at him. When WH came back out to the truck DD13 said he was irritated.

OW H called yesterday and asked me how WH was behaving. He wondered because OW called him twice yesterday and was yelling, and screaming, and being snotty. She called once in the morning and they "talked" for 45 minutes and then she called again in the evening and they went at it for another hour.

Maybe she found out about WH helping me with his horse and going to breakfast. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />



This is my plan, SL. Get there early and do it myself. As a single parent. And then LEAVE. I think he'll show, he really seems to be making an effort lately. I question his motives, but no matter the motive, it benefits DDs. I KNOW he is going to want to talk and I just have to LEAVE. I HAVE to. I'm afraid he is going to ask me to go for dinner after. And it's so hard to say no....everytime he asks I question whether THIS will be the time he's going to say he wants to reconcile and I don't want to let that opportunity pass.

But it makes me wonder.....if they are arguing, is this the right time for me to push him away? Or should I step in and take advantage of their disconnect? But then a Plan B can never be effective because I have already broken it. If I don't respect and stick with what I say, neither will he.

Fox,

2X4, you should have your mother call WH about the horse instead. You want to break Plan B didn't you. Be strong girl; it's your marriage you want to save. If he wants to reconcile, you'll know. Stay Dark and hang in there; let the two of them poison one another.

It sounds like there is trouble in paradise. That's good. Just stay dark. If you WH wants to come home, he'll find a way to tell you. You don't need to sit there waiting, making yourself available.

Moving forward without him is the best medicine for you. You don't want this WH. You WANT your H, you want your family.

Take this new opportunity to go DARK, no talking, no nothing. If there is trouble with OW, this is a great time to be silent...

Thanks for the 2x4, miketc. Yes, my mother should have called him. It didn't even enter my mind. I don't know why other than the horses were always my responsiblity even when H and I were together. This horse was technically his but I took care of her with the rest of them.

I think I have to admit that I must have wanted to break Plan B. I argued with myself back and forth on whether it was a good enough reason to break Plan B. I guess if I had to argue with myself that much...it really wasn't necessary. In a true emergency, it wouldn't have been a question at all.

2x4 noted.

{{{FNH}}} Good luck at the parents night.

Thank you familycomesfirst. I AM going to stick with Plan B!!

I am going to repeat to myself...Plan B, Plan B, Plan B, Plan B, Plan B, Plan B,Plan B, Plan B, Plan B,Plan B, Plan B, Plan B.

Thank you for the encouragement.

Freshman orientation went pretty well. I got there really early and found a place to sit. I was fairly close to the front so I wasn't sure if WH would show up and just sit in the back. I would have if I was him.

But he didn't, he searched me out in the crowd and came down to sit by me. I was sitting in the aisle seat and would normally have scooted to the next sit so H could just sit down. He is 6'3" and has difficulty folding his legs up enough to be comfortable, so the aisle seat gives him more room. I'm 5'3" so it doesn't make a bit of difference to me. This time I didn't switch seats, I moved my legs a little so he could get past me.

I hadn't said anything to him at all and as he moved passed me he said "what, did you think I would be late?". Which he was by about 10 minutes but the meeting hadn't started yet. I said "no, I thought you might sit in the back." To which he replied "nope, I'm here". We didn't speak at all although WH seemed fairly relaxed and may have if I made the effort. But I didn't.

As the meeting ended I stood and gathered my stuff. WH handed me an envelope and asked me to give it to DD12. I took it from him and said I would. WH was still sitting down...I'm not real sure what he was doing but he was kind of looking down and messing with the papers they gave us. I turned away and left. Just left, didn't say bye, just left. He probably thinks I was mad, although I didn't act like other than leaving without speaking to him or waiting for him to walk out with me.

Gave DD12 the envelope when I got home. It was $10 for lunch money. It's some kind of effort, I guess.

Good job. If there is trouble in paradise, he can't get his fix from you. I know it's hard, but you did right.

I think since he felt free to sit next to you and "chat" you should remind him of Plan B.

Maybe a short e-mail that says "please read my letter again, this includes school meetings. I do not wish to speak to you, see you, or communicate with you until OW is gone."

I need to respecfully disagree with you, Lexxxy. There was no chatting, he spoke two sentences in an hour. I was not friendly toward him and immediately left as soon as the meeting was over.

I'm trying to find the balance between Plan B and doing what I have to do with the other parent for the sake of DDs. This is a big event in DD13's life and I don't want to contribute to the bad memories of this time for her.

He got nothing from me other than to see me. I did not act like a friend. I tolerated his presence and left immediately after. I gave him nothing more than any other stranger that would have sat beside me.

I understand the importance of a dark Plan B but I also have to follow my gut on what I see as reasonable in regards to DDs.

Last night was ok emotionally for me. It didn't hurt me like it would have a month or two ago. I think I fared better than WH did.

Parent/Teacher conferences are Monday. Both WH and I will be attending with DDs. I know I could set up a separate appointment to speak with the teachers but that just doesn't seem right for DDs. I want them to see their mother being the better person and doing what is right for them. And as the D comes closer and WH is after the father of the year award, I have to watch what I do so a judge does not construe it as being difficult and not in the best interest of DDs. Unfortunately, my world now includes what a judge will think of me.

I already hear the arguments in my head about the fact that what is right for DDs is their mother and father back together and that is what a dark Plan B could bring. But I think that this is what is best for me and DDs right now, all aspects considered.

Your "gut" deceives you.

"Getting along" for the kids is part of his fantasy.

The only way to disabuse him of that notion AND actually get peace yourself is completely separating yourself from any and all contact with him.

You KNOW this makes sense...deep down, you have NO desire to be friends with him if he continues down his destructive path. Your "gut" is telling you to be nice and he will hopefully come around. He won't...at least not soon enough to recover the marriage if you keep exposing yourself to him and allow him to make love bank withdrawals.

Mr. W

Your heart and mind are not in sinc yet for Plan B. You find any and all excuses to not stand firm on that boundary. When you are truly ready for Plan B, you will make arrangements for separate appointments for parent teacher conference; you'll let your mother make the calls about the horses; you definitely won't be eating breakfast with him.

Another Plan B letter would be meaningless at this point because he knows you don't mean it - after all YOU are initiating contact or making it easy for him to have contact.

Plan B is all or nothing, Fox!

PS - being friends for the sake of daughter is something you do after you're divorced, and have no more feelings - anger, hurt, or love to concern yourself at all about his presence - you reach a point of total indifference. You are not there yet, but you are clearly on the path to that - no saving the marriage and family for your daughter with these actions.

Friends don't betray, cheat, lie or use friends.

Ouch...I felt those.

FNH,

I know PLAN B can be tough.....because I am in it!

...but I don't discuss ANYTHING with WS...and I don't meet teachers with him... NOTHING!...(although, I must admit...nothing seriously out of the ordinary has happened so far)...and yes, it is NOT to the benefit of our boys.... but then what part of anything involving an affair is!

WS chose A with OW over M, family and relationship with his wife and mother of his children....

...our 2 boys alternate a week each, and at the end of the week with me,if needed....I inform him, in writing, of any FACTS he should know about the boys ...ie. sickness... notices from school... copies of anything he should have as a parent.... to make 'transfer' smoother for boys.... WS is rarely the subject of conversation with boys... they are living 'two' separate lives as a consequence of WS's choices...

My WS would love nothing more than friendly co-parenting...in fact he expected it....so that the 'consequences' of his choices could be minimized...and has on a regular basis attempted to have me break PLAN B for that exact reason.... for the sake of the boys, of course!

He has consistently gotten one response....yes I will, when OW is out of the picture!

...after a year and half of PLAN B....WS seems to just start to take me SERIOUSLY...because it was never his intention to choose anything.... the OW was to be IN ADDITION to a 'relationship' with me...to him it was a given since we had boys in common.....probably also a reason why WS and OW are not 'officially' living together....

...WRONG!

For some WS...reality takes awhile to sink in... all the more reason for BS to be consistent with PLAN B message... because if WS sees a 'crack' in BS's PLAN B....it will just take longer for WS to take BS's boundary seriously!

...and since D-day for me was 3 months into A....I guess reality may also be hitting laland at the same time!

PLAN B takes a great amount of discipline....what makes it easier is when the objective is clear...so that 'excuses' to break PLAN B can be seen as such....

...it's better not to do PLAN B, and put a boundary in place, when BS is not prepared to respect own boundary.....because then...why should WS?

PLAN B is BS committing to N/C with WS.....and now you can see how difficult it can be for WS to committ to N/C with OW...just for future reference!

The challenge in PLAN B is how NOT to break it and have the kids 'suffer' the least...

As has been suggested...the clearer the schedule and arrangements about the kids, and anything else, are in place...the less chance (excuse) you will have to break it!

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> I know, I know <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> It just feels like I am causing harm to DDs when I handle it this way. I know the end result would be the to the benefit to DDs. But what if the end result is not the recovery of the M? Then I've harmed DDs for nothing.

I don't know if I want to save the M anymore..........

I left another message for my lawyer this morning to find out if he was able to schedule another final hearing. I'm getting in a pretty bad spot financially and told him I'd like to hold the final date off as long as possible but get an emergency injunction to force WH to pay support and get definite schedule for DDs. This, too, will cause WH to deal with the consequences and see what D will really be like.

Thank you all for your input. I knew when I posted I would get this reaction, and it is deserved. I appreciate you reminding me of how this should work and why it does. lunamare, thank you for explaining your situation and how it is going for you. It is extremely helpful.

I just really worry about causing more harm to DDs.

Today is the day I'm going to start doing Plan B DARK. I'll call the school and set up a phone call with the teachers instead of going to the conferences with WH. Monday is WH day with DDs anyway, he can take them to the conferences by himself. He hardly ever went before and when he did, the teachers and I did most the talking. He just sat there.

Your daughter wasn't even at the meeting. How did Plan B or no Plan B have any impact on her at all??? Why couldn't you get up and move? That would have sent a mesage to him. He is still thinking life will be friendly post divorce. He thinks he gets OW in ADDITION to his family.

Your daughters are old enough to understand the MB principles and plans.

Have you explained what your strategies are? Help them to understand what you did in Plan A, and what you are now doing in Plan B -- so that they will support you.

Besides...YOU MATTER

If this all fails to resolve itself your kids need a happy and recovered Mom/Primary custodial parent to look after them and to teach them right from wrong. There are consequences to immoral behavior...you WH doesn't have the right to walk all over you then be your friend. HE is responsible for this. His choices, his consequences.

You see...Plan B is also about YOUR personal recovery.

Mr. Wondering

I got it. I didn't handle this particular meeting as well as I could have. Point taken.

Why did I not get up and move? Because I didn't think it was appropriate in that moment during the meeting. The speaker had already begun to talk by the time WH sat down. The speaker was standing beside my seat in the aisle.....it just didn't work the way that I could just get up and move. And I doubt WH would see it as it was intended. I believe he would just think I was being childish.



I have thought of sharing this with DDs. But would they pass it on to WH? I am going to discuss some of it with them this weekend...so they understand why I won't be going to parent/teacher conferences.

Thank you for you thoughts, Lexxxy, they are appreciated.

Teachers are some of the most understanding individuals on the planet.

They should be fully aware of what's going on at home so they can be watching for problems.

They will allow you to have separate conferences. Don't even tell WH. If he asks through the intermediary you just respond that you have scheduled a conference for yourself (without giving him the time and date) and he is free to schedule his own with the teachers. You are NOT responsible for making sure he schedules it, goes or even knows when they occur. He's left the house and the family. If he wants to assume such responsibility he has to figure out how.

Kid performances and activities...arrive late, wait outside and walk in after him so you don't have to move (you just choose a seat away from him)....maybe even ask for permission to stand backstage behind the curtain where your kids see you and know you are there but WH won't get the chance to even lay eyes on you. Just express concern that your husband is divorcing you and you don't want to break down crying in front of everyone if he approaches you and says mean hurtful things. They will let you do what you want then.

Mr. Wondering

Oh, Mr. W, you are good at this carrot/stick concept. First you thwack me with a 2x4 and then you doctor it up so it doesn't sting so much.

In regards to feeling like I matter, I don't want to get carried away with it and become the selfish POS WH has become. I can't let it become all about the fact that I matter at the cost of all others. As a wife and mother, I have often put DDs and H ahead of my own wants/needs. I need to find that spot where I matter but so does everyone else. (----not WH but H)

Thank you for the thwack and the encouragement. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

Which of the two do you want to model for your daughters (they are watching you after all...how you handle adversity, what you say and do, etc.)


Model of Strength, perseverence, morality - Your father and I made a solemn vow of marriage on ____, 19___. Your father has chosen to end such marriage. I have tried my hardest to get him to reconcile but he refuses/refuesed. I did not take a vow of friendship. I refuse to associate myself with "friends" that don't follow through on their word. I value the memory of your father as the kind and decent person he was when we were married. I'd like to remember him that way and move on with my life. He choose to leave me; but, I am a strong woman and I won't allow his inappropriate and immoral choices to ruin my life.

Model of weakness - I will accept what he did to me and be friends with your father because I have to. Marriages are disposable. It happens. We just fell out of love (implying to them that they can surely make the same choices some day...do what you want it that is how you FEEL). Your father made a mistake but I forgive him (even though he has failed to apologize and seek your forgiveness...just give it to him anyway). Sometimes MEN just leave...that's the way it is (don't ever put full faith in a man because they will hurt you). Women should just bend over and take it and get along...that's their role...you know, for the kid's.

I'm not being completely clear but I hope you get the point. History repeats itself all the time on these boards. I've seen it many times where a WW or a WH ends up having an affair and divorces at nearly the precise time that their own children obtain the age they were at when their own father or mother had an affair and divorced. Call the Harley's if you don't believe me and for guidance on how you should portray these events and circumstances (er. choices) to your kids. You can't shelter them from reality otherwise they internalize things as something THEY contributed to.

I'm not beating you up....

You are progressing.

But since you've gone to Plan B prematurely FOR YOU (based upon not doing it right yet) and you can't go back on it (unless Steve Harley advises you otherwise)...then it's time to get it....quick.

Mr. Wondering

You are being clear. I'm getting it. Thank you.....really.

I'm processing all you've said......

FNH,


...you're NOT causing the harm, FNH....your WS has....by having an A...and you cannot control what he does!

...like you, at one point I also worried how the boys felt about my choosing not to see or talk to WS (as some of their friends' 'separated' parents were into friendly co-parenting..)... and my DS16 very quickly replied 'mom...I would do the same thing!'....mind you, I have two boys...and given the situation...I have found that they tend to want to protect me....but it definitely put me more at ease....and thought that maybe friendly co-parenting could actually send a somewhat more confusing message....that WS's choices based on lies and selfishness was 'acceptable' behaviour....NOT!......because I do want them to know that THEY should not have to tolerate that kind of behaviour in THEIR future relationships.... and that in life....inspite of it all....the unfairness, etc. etc...one can maintain one's dignity and respect...and with some courage and determination...move on all the same!

By putting my best efforts....'home' has regained a sense of security and 'joie de vivre' that was there before WS left...with projects and friends on the forefront...even if a 'big piece' is missing.... it's 'business' as usual!

Hang in there FNH...it does get better...slips will happen...just don't lose sight of the long-term goals and things will fall into place!

lunamare, are you me? You seem to be in my head.

Thank you so much for your thoughts. DD13 I think will completely understand but DD12 I'm unsure about. I guess it's how I explain it. Mr. W's post gave me much to think about in regards to what needs to be said and how to say it.

Mr. W,

Would you mind answering a tax question for me? I would like to file my taxes and claim both DDs as my dependants. I talked to my lawyer about this morning and he said I could do so as I have not been told NOT to. With the disclaimer that if WH files and claims them also, there could be a problem.

Do you know if I can file as Head of Household? According to the information I've found, I could do so even though I was married at the end of 2006. As long as WH was not living in the home and I was supporting DDs for the last six months.

Any thoughts? I don't imagine you can give me definite advice without knowing my complete situation but what can you tell me based on this information?

WH moved out 8/22/06

Thus...you were not separated more than 6 months in 2006 and can't file as Head of Household.

Filing Married filing separately disqualifies you for certain credits (earned income, child care, etc) so you'll need to analyze this a bit.

But, based on the informatin I have I believe that pursuant to Table 6 on the below linked IRS publication you should be all set getting the deduction for your kids because you were the "parent with whom the child lived for the longer period of time during the year". If he tries to take it too the IRS will apply the tiebreaker rules and end up denying HIM the deduction/exemption.

IRS LINK

Mr. Wondering

Thanks, Mr. W

Technically, 08/22/06 is when I locked the door and WH was no longer welcome to return. He was not spending the majority of the nights at "home" since the very beginning of June. He signed the lease agreement with OW on 07/31/06. This changes my refund by about $1,500... money that would be useful since WH is not contributing. (Yet)

How is the cut off line determined?

Thanks for the link...I will do a little more research

I tried to find the specific regulations pertaining to the "6 month" test to see if there was perhaps a on-point example. If you can document he was out of the house before June 30th for good (just some of his personal items remained) you'll likely be golden.

Your word versus his...you should win, but the dates may really trip you up. It's a pretty hard and fast rule that appears to me indicates that even one night in July ruins it.

Hopefully someone can get the full exact answer from the IRS regulations.

Mr. W

Thanks for the help, Mr. W. I'll keep looking.

You'd think this would be there somewhere, they have information about claiming a child as a dependant when they are kidnapped. Infidelity is common enough, they should have addressed it also.

Fox, you're getting some great advice here. It's really really hard, especially at the beginning (they tell me it gets easier). This comment of yours kind of jumped out at me:

--I believe he would just think I was being childish.

He will think that (Jennifer C told me this specifically--WS will accuse you of being immature), but why do you care? He's an insane alien who can only think about himself. He will do and say thoughtless, hurtful things. That's what you're protecting yourself against in Plan B. Personally, I am only starting to realize how much contact (any contact) hurts me. It gives me more resolve to be dark.

I understand the concern about what's best for your children Right Now, but keep focused on the big picture. The best thing you can do for them is whatever gets you back to a happy, stable, two-parent marriage, and that's Plan B. And I really like the idea of explaining what you are doing and why to your kids. They should be able to understand.

Thanks for your post sdguy038.

As much as I try to reason it out in my head, it does still matter to me what H thinks of me. I still want to see him as H, even though he is WH. I'm working on it, though.

If Plan B was a guarantee, it'd be a no-brainer. It's the unknown that scares me. I'm kind of playing the odds, trusting something I've never had experience with before. And look where blind trust got me before..........a WH.

If Plan B was a guarantee, it'd be a no-brainer. It's the unknown that scares me. I'm kind of playing the odds, trusting something I've never had experience with before. And look where blind trust got me before..........a WH.


Maybe look at it another way. If remaining open was a guarantee, then, sure, why not still talk to WH and give him some of the comforts of his life, meet EN's (like talking to you , and hanging around the homestead on his whim). With Plan B, you guarantee yourself some slice of happiness, of centeredness, of strength.

I had some dark days, but they were much worse when I came head to head with my WH. It was so painful to have to realize over and over I was being cast aside, or rejected. My day to day life became much easier when I was no longer in contact with WH.

Even in recovery, we all have to admit that there is UNKNOWN. With both spouses working toward a common goal, to be in love with each other and protect each other, there is a bit more stability, but it's still a slippery slope until you get a hang of it. Same with Plan B, when you get in the swing of things, you'll feel more settled. PLUS you did a good job with Plan A, reverse babble and such.

It's hard not to get discouraged, but give it time.

I'm with you, Fox. Absolutely. If I knew that it would bring my W back or even at what point I would know whether it was going to bring my W back, Plan B would be a heck of a lot easier. I won't say easy, but compared to where we are now, it would feel easy, I think. In my thread (today, I think) I admit to struggling about how to think while doing this. It's just really hard. You're getting good advice, though.

Hang in there. Be strong. Stop the contact.

SDG

Thank you for all the support everyone has given. I need a little more today......

WH had DDs this weekend. He called Friday evening and I debated on whether I should answer or not. But since he had DDs, I felt I had to. Could have been an emergency, but it wasn't:

BS: Hello?
WH: Hey, I just wanted to let you know that I'm going to have DDs meet OW this weekend. I promised you I would tell you before I did it. I asked DDs and they were fine with it.

I hung up..........and cried.

He called back a few minutes later. And I answered. WHY did I answer?! I shouldn't have! I didn't want to! But I couldn't resist!

BS: Hello? (with tears in my voice)
WH: Did we get disconnected?
BS: No, I hung up on you.
WH: Oh. Well, I just wanted to let you know. I promised I would.
BS: Yeah, and we all know how you honor your promises and live up to your obligations.
WH: What do you mean? I told you I would tell you when I was going to do it and I am. I already talked to DDs about it and they are fine with it.

And I WENT OFF! WHAT THE HECK ELSE DID HE THINK DDs WOULD SAY?! THEY ARE NOT GOING TO TELL HIM NO!? Although I doubt they said yes, DD12 I can just about guarantee said "I don't care" or "I don't know" This led into an hour long conversation. I was FURIOUS at times, HEARTBROKEN in others, and FRUSTRATED through ALL of it!

I asked him what he thought he was teaching DDs about marriage by doing this. He said we never had a marriage and two people living in misery is not good for DDs. I asked him why he married me in the first place and why he "suffered" for 15 years. He said he asks himself that every day. That he shouldn't have ever married me. (Keep in mind, just a month ago he was telling me that he searched and searched his mind to come up with something about me that would justify why he has done this and he couldn't come up with one. It was all just him)

During part of the conversation I was trying to reason (I don't know why, I can't reason with him) but I was trying to explain to him what I have gone through and how close to suicide I was. And you know what he said? "I wish you would have done it". I was speechless for a moment and then said "Did you just hear yourself? Do you know what you just said? I hope you can sleep tonight after saying such a thing to the mother of your children" He said he sleeps just fine.

He was being mean and cruel and accusing me of all sorts of things with OW H. I told him why I talked to OW H and he continually tried to turn it into the same thing he has done. I have to to admit during this tirade I called OW his POS wh()re twice. Because all the stuff he was saying to me about OW H was coming from OW. She was telling him that OW H was saying we were heavily involved. I asked him how he could believe his POS who()re who is supposedly getting information from her H. I asked if he thought that maybe OW H would lie to make OW mad and doesn't he think OW would lie to make WH angry at me? I told him to THINK about where is information is coming from.

I could hear him smoking.....sucking them down and then relighting another one. During one of the moments where I was angry, I said "suck a little harder on that cigarette WH, I hope you choke on it". And he said, "I hope I do to" <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> I know I shouldn't have said it, I was trying to hurt him back but that was just an odd response.

I tried everything I could to reason with him about OW and DDs. I had held it off so long, I had to put the effort in one last time.

A few times during the conversation WH would SCREAM at me to move on and let him GO - when we were not even discussing anything about that. He wants DDs in his life and I HAVE TO LET HIM GO. He doesn't want me, he is never coming back, etc, etc. To which I replied, "if this is the man you are, I don't ever want you back. I just want DDs to be safe from your bad decisions" Then he went off about how controlling I have always been and I controlled him into being a different person and this is really who he always was. I said she can have you then, you deserve each other, I'm on the verge of hating the man that you are now.

I told him one day he was going to be all alone, if he continues to treat the people he supposedly loves so poorly. He time and time again said how much he loves DDs. I have no doubt that he does. But I told him he has a chitty way of showing people that he loves them.

Again, he screamed at me to let him go and to MOVE ON with whomever I choose. I told him that as long as OW was in his life I would not be, at all. "I don't want you in my life! OW is going to be in my life forever!" (Keep in mind, last month he was telling me that it could be over tomorrow, they were just living "day to day")

I told him he needed to go through my mother for correspondence regarding DDs and to not contact me again until OW was gone. "She will never be gone!"

I didn't not tell him I was not going to parent/teacher conferences today, but I did discuss it with DDs. They seemed to understand it. I'e already called teachers and explained the situation.

Again....he tore me up and spit me out. All day Saturday, I just cried and cried. And beat myself up for even getting into it with him again. I just PANICKED and tried everything I could think of to STOP this from happening. But I lost and she won. She got what she wanted. It PISSES me off to lose to her!

DDs didn't have much to say about it when they got home. I'm not sure they were even going to tell me. I had to ask. I waited a few hours after they got back and then asked them at dinner. I didn't ask what they thought of her or anything. Just explained to them what I thought of it and that it was wrong and I didn't want this to ever happen to them, as children or as adults. That dad isn't a bad guy but is making bad decisions. And went over what a marriage should be and how spouses should treat each other. And that I was willing to do that. And I talked to them about Plan B and the reasons for it. I hope they understood.

DD13 did say she was faky, though. No surprise, she had to be nice and she would have to fake it since that is not really how she is.

AARGH!

I've already received a call from my mother that WH is asking to have DDs Feb 23-25. I've told her to tell him I have plans with DDs that weekend. Which I do. We are going out of town to a cabin to go sledding, etc. I'm REALLY looking forward to it and DDs are too.

He also said he had reread all the emails between us from the last couple of years and he could see how unhappy we both were and how mean and controlling I was. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

Why in the heck is he re-reading all those emails. AGAIN. Last month he had done the same thing and we had talked about it then. And now he is doing it again.....? Looking for justification that I'm so horrible that he HAD to do this.

WHOA!!! Good lord! When you break Plan B you go BALLS TO THE WALL!

You did notice how one month he says this, then the next he recants and changes it and twists it up and spits it out so that it is indiscernable, RIGHT?!

Stick to what YOU say, do not talk to him. See, he did not respond to you in the way you wanted when you answered his calls, HE WON'T, not now. DISREGARD the things about OW, they're CRAP. He doesn't know his A$$ from a hole in the wall right now. Why talk to his A$$?

Between the lines are justifications, 'see how unhappy we were' so that's my reason for choosing OW and this lifestyle. INSERT---see how unhappyblah blah buh blah bloo blee blah...

If he's rereading things from you, he's probably also looking to have his admiration need met, by reading how much you NEED him or how he's HURTING YOU. It's a fix of some kind, don't let him fool you. I know when I go and reread H's old emails, I'm LOOKING, LONGING for something, some shred of love/care. I'm seeking something to make me feel better. He's doing the same, and it's not making it feel better.

Take it EASY Foxy, take it easy, slow down, breath, open up his cage door, let him go. If you love him (which it sounds like your LB is in the red here) let him go; protect your children with all you've got, but leave HIM out of it. That conversation you had was all about HIM and YOU; I don't see your children being the focus, just my opinion.

Be the business man when confronted with him and the guise of talking about the children, no emotion, just business. Otherwise, no need to talk.

SL, thank you. I know I took it too far...I should have just not answered when he called back. I felt so PANICKED and DESPERATE to STOP the meeting from happening, though!

You are absolutely right. I know when I go back and read those emails between H and I that I am looking for something too. To remind myself of who he was and that he did love me at some point. And reassuring myself that I was good to him. Which I was.

If he is rereading the emails and letters from last fall....he is getting ALOT of admiration. I went over the top telling him what a good guy he has always been and how much I appreciated what he always did for us and telling him I was sorry for my part in our marriage falling apart. How much I believed in him...etc, etc. That I thought we could recover the marriage, etc, etc.

No more talking to a$$e$! All I hear is bull$hit.

DARKNESS! I SWEAR!

WH and DDs are at parent/teacher conferences right now. And I am not........

Fox, I'm in a similar place, I think. Just starting to realize how much contact with WW takes out of me, especially if it's the kind of gut-wrenching thing you just had. And it's why you have to protect yourself with Plan B.

WS's will do thoughtless, hurtful things. Or they will deliberately do things to provoke fights or contact. You can't let yourself get dragged into those conversations. You already know this, but you're talking with a fogged-out zombie. You're not going to be able to change his mind, but by letting him talk to you, even though you know he is an alien, you still hear some of the fogtalk he spews, and it still takes energy out of you, and you need all that energy for your kids.

If anything, it sounds like your Plan B is having an effect. Stay strong. Stay dark!

SDG

{{{{FNH}}}}

I think what happened to you is why plan B can be so good for the BS. It takes you out of the WS's warped world and you are no longer their punching bag. He is nice one minute and nasty the next. The roller coaster is too much. I had a feeling the intro to the OW would go exactly as it did. He would suddenly spring it on you and "watch" with glee as it killed you. I'd be willing to bet she's been pressuring him because she saw the fact he hasn't brougth them around her as a "victory" on your part and she just had to squash that.

I think you've said before that at this point you aren't really wanting the M back. I'd guess that part of the pain for you is feeling like she won. In OW's eyes she probably feels she has bested you. Don't be fooled, it is a house of cards. Their R will always be wraught with jealousy and mistrust. Quelch the desire to "get even" and move on with your head held high.

Plan FU would be great right about now. Keep talking to your D's about the importance of marriage and relationships as you have been. One sane parent is better than none...

PS - I also wouldn't doubt that OWH is playing up their jealousy over you guys to his advantage.

Thank you sdguy038 and familycomesfirst. I know it is for the best. I already feel better now that the decision for Plan B is made. I waffled a bit at the beginning but I am firm now. That conversation on Friday with WH was the last straw. I do not deserve that and refuse to accept it any longer.

WH emailed my mother yesterday asking for a certain weekend with DDs and telling me when I could pick when and where I was to pick them up. I have already made plans with them that weekend and asked my mother to pass that information along to WH. He then asked her when I was going to "let" him have DDs again. Yesterday was the day we had already agreed on so asked her to tell him "today from 2:45pm to 7:30pm". There was no response from him.

WH brought DDs home at 7:30 (I was in the bathtub and yelled from the bathroom "hey, girls!" They didn't answer, both went to their rooms and shut their doors. I got out and went to talk to them. According to them, nothing was wrong. But they were sure crabby. Eventually, they came out of a little bit. I talked to them about parent/teacher conferences and how it went, etc. I congratulated DD12 on all her good grades, and DD12 on her good ones, and discussed the not so good ones and what can be done.

DD13 kind of giggled and said "you should have seen Dad's face when he found out you weren't coming to the conferences." I asked if he was mad. She said no, he just had a funny look on his face and then said "it would have been nice to know that." I have to admit, I get a little kick out of that. WH has never gone to conferences by himself and doesn't hardly speak to the teachers when he comes with me. Just sits back and watches. All the responsibility was in his lap - I like that. FYI--I had already talked to teachers and they gave DDs an envelope with copies of everything WH received to give to me.

I hope he took their report cards home and stuck them on his refrigerator. Because at the bottom of one card it is addressed to Mr. & Mrs. Foxnhound1 and the other has fox and hound Smith. Unless, of course, he cut that part off.

DD13 also said the WH told her to call him when she had a test and he would go over it with her. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" /> I hope he truly means it, but I just don't see it happening. For one thing, how can you study over the phone when you don't even know what you are studying? And another thing, WH never had good study habits, how is he going to help DD13 get some? I didn't say these things to DD13...she already had that look like he was nuts if he thought she was going to call him for help on school work. Any time they ever asked him when he was living at home he would tell them to go ask me. Not that he couldn't do it....he just chose not to.

Then today, I received an email from my mother after she had received one from WH. He has come up with a schedule for DDs that goes through June 5. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> Basically, demanding that I get back to him by tomorrow at noon or he was assuming all the dates were his. I agreed to some and modified the ones I didn't agree with and sent it to my mother to get back to him. It just makes me so mad! Where was this concerned parent wanting to spend so much time with his DDs a few months ago! or a year ago!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

At this point even when he asks civilly, I'm ticked. Just seing his name ticks me off!

He asked for Vigilante Day. This is a local parade put on by our high schools. The students build floats to represent something in history. There are usually about 100 and it is fun to watch. I have always taken the afternoon off and taken DDs. WH went occasionally but not usually. He normally wouldn't take off of work. Now this year he wants it. He also wants them the last day of school. This is another day that I would take the afternoon off and go get ice cream and have fun. WH was always invited but seldom came. Now he wants to this year, without me. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

My lawyer is STILL waiting for his lawyer to call him back. I'm just so tired of this!

But, I'm still DARK.

OW H might be playing up their jealousy. But WH should not better. I know he mentally doesn't right now, but he still SHOULD! I have never given him reason to believe anything like what they are suggesting.

I was feeling like OW won as far as DDs are concerned. But she hasn't and she won't. The more time they spend around her, the less they will like her. The more she is pushed on them by WH, the more they will resent her. This "meeting" isn't all bad for me. I had a hard time initially because I had fought it for so long and had hoped WH would care for his DDs more than he seems to. I've heard through OW H that OW is frustrated with me and why do I think she is such a horrible person that she can not be around children. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" /> That has bugged her for quite a while and I'm sure she got some satisfaction out of having it done now. That satisfaction wont' last. I'm certain of it. Just like my feeling I lost to her, didn't last. The less reaction OW and WH get from me, the less satisfaction they get.

Hang in there, Fox. I know exactly how you feel. I dreaded the "meeting," too, but you have the right approach. Your daughters will be able to see through both your WH and the OW; the feeling of victory over you will be hollow, and you know it wasn't a victory at all. You're the one doing the right, heroic thing. Your daughters will know it now and all through their lives. Some day your WH will know it, too.

You totally nailed it in your last paragraph. Way to go!

I agree, you nailed it with your last paragraph! I wish his lawyer would quit dragging his feet. You guys need a visitation agreement set up thru the courts so there is no more of this back and forth.

I'd be wary of email communication, he could attempt to use it against you in court to make it look like weren't letting him have time with the girls. If you have made prior agreements and he tries to change them, copy him on the prior agreement if possible whne responding. It will show he's trying to manipulate prior plans to HIS advantage.

Hang in there hun, you will get thru this!!

Hey Foxy,

I had to 'nail down' a visitation schedule with my WH for the last half of 2006-2007. It sucked, but I did it. He made it so that he had DS on all of the Holidays and events that WE (the family)really enjoyed together. I balked at some, but gave over some too. I realized that this was not about me, however WH wanted to make it about US, that this was about my son.

If the schedule meant that DS would be spending more time with his father, then that also meant that my DS would be happy. A side benefit is that WE both agreed that NO OP would be in his life, not until we could both agree. I knew that he would stick to it, as long as his R was new, because what kind of fun could WH have with OW with my DS demanding most of his time. Truthfully, I was hurt by all of the time he wanted to 'take' from me with DS, but I wasn't about to let my personal feelings hurt my DS chances of being with his daddy.

That being said, I would have fought tooth and nail to keep my DS away from a live-in OW--MOST DEFINITELY! You now do realize, no matter what, you are the better person, REALLY. Your children know that. Keep stressing them that you will be there for them, and that their happiness and stability is most important to you.

You sound strong. There will be days that you are not, but you are sounding more and more convinced that Plan B is good for you, and that is really important.


No one has won ANYTHING in this mess; EVERYONE has losses. You will, eventually, win yourself back, and that is most precious. Keep up the good work! LOVE to you on this day of giving...

I'm pretty careful with the emails. I read them over and over again and refine them so they come across the best way that I can. When I first answer them, I'm irritated and say things that won't help the situation...then I read it and take those things out. It takes a few times to get all the "extra" stuff back out! I'm fully expecting him to use anything against me in court that he can. Although I disagreed with a couple of his requests, I also offered others......stating CLEARLY that I was not agreeing to contact with OW. I restated what our original agreement was (which did not include weekends) when I sent the email back to him via my mother. I also CC'd my lawyer.

WH had it set up a schedule that works for him all the way through the end of school. I declined to commit to anything past April 1 and on each line from April-June stated "I am not willing to plan this far out without conferring with my lawyer"

He has not responded as of yet about the weekends I did offer him in place of ones he requested that I declined because I already have plans with DDs.

I am feeling strong today, too. Yes, I will get through this....thank you all for helping!

Great job, Fox...

I did the same thing with my emails. I would initially have something derisive or a cunning stab at him. Then, I would reread and edit those things out. Sometimes I wouldn't even really know what I wrote until after the first draft. I would be surprised by some of the things I said and then have to edit it.

The scheduling is a work in progress; it's never static, so you are doing well by stating that you would prefer to only do a couple of months at a time. You never know what may come up in yours or DD's lives. I do, however, always suggest 'regular' schedule for visitation. Like every other weekend and one night (a couple of hours) during the week. However, every couple is different...

I do see this, SL. It's just so hard to "give them up" to him, especially with his poor choices. But I do recognize that DDs love him and he loves them. It is important for them to spend time with their dad. They are doing better now that they see him more. A couple of months ago, he wasn't asking to see them at all...and I know they felt abandoned by that. Now he is calling them often and spending time with them. They feel important to him again and that is good.

Also, the more time they spend with him and he has to bring them back HOME...the more reality will hit him.

FYI - DD13 has a test today. I asked her if she was going to call WH so he can help. (I even said it nicely). She looked at me like I was nuts and said "um, no" <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

I went over the material with her last night and gave her some pointers on different ways to memorize things. And tricks on how to recall what you've learned. She struggles alot with her short term memory. She studies hard but has trouble recalling what she's reviewed. This has been a struggle for her for a long time.

There is actually a little bit of relief that the meeting has happened. I can stop dreading it so much and putting all my energy into fighting that first meeting. It's done and now I'll move on to the next battle. Not that I will stop resisting continued contact, that is still on the agenda.

I really really hope that DDs will recognize one day that I tried to do what was best for them in this situation and that this isn't something I chose. I'm certain I've made mistakes, but always with their best interest at heart.



Psst.....don't tell anyone, but sometimes I talk tough. Try to convince myself, hoping that eventually if I say it enough that my feelings will follow and I will truly believe. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.

I'm getting there. Doing my best to trust the process.

Talking tough is good practice for feeling tough, keep it up. It's the same thing as smiling when you least feel happy.

About your DD, and her short term memory. I always had problems with exams, unless it was a subject that I thoroughly enjoyed, right through college. It is rough, but doable. I would have to go back and read the same paragraph over and over sometimes. I thought I may have had ADD, but that turns out not to be true. For me, it's just a memory problem.

My BIL had dyslexia, and had many problems with studying. He got through nursing school, and is doing quite well.

Memorization techniques are great. I used a lot of acronyms, as well as associations.

Self-talk is good stuff, especially when it's spot on like what you said. The more you say it and think it, the more you will believe it and act it. It's going to be a roller coaster, so you need every advantage you can get.

Kids know. My DS7, who has been loathe to talk about any of this, said in casual conversation with my mother the other day that his parents are divorced. My mom gently corrected him that no, we are not divorced, rather separated. They talked a little bit about the difference, and my mom told him that WW had filed the paperwork for divorce (but she doesn't seem to have done anything since). DS7 then said So there are three things that could happen: it could go on like this, they could get divorced, or they could get back together. My mom said yes. DS7 said Well, Dad has a plan, and this isn't what he wants, so maybe they'll get back together. And then he didn't want to talk about it anymore. I love him so much. Kids know.

Oh, yes, kids know. My ONLY 4 year old son asks me daily now if daddy is coming home. He knows the situation. He has grown accustomed to his father leaving, so he asks everyday, maybe so he knows how to go about his day. My kid is HIGHLY in tune with his emotions. He comes from a place of emotions.

I'm hoping you will all be proud of me! I think I did well last night when WH tried to contact me. Here's what happened:

My sister asked if she could pick DDs up after school to do something with them and then have dinner. I had been invited to dinner with friends so this worked out well.

After my sister picked up DDs from school, they brought by a beautiful peach rose for me. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> Very sweet. Then sister was taking them to dinner. I went out for dinner with friends and had a really good time.

On my way to my sister's house to pick up DDs, my cell phone rang. I checked it and it was WH. I didn't answer. It quit ringing and he called again, I didn't answer. (I no longer see his name on my cell when he calls. It shows L C S POS LL (Lying Cheating Sneaking POS Low Life). It quits ringing, and he calls again...this time it is showing unavailable <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />. He called 4 times before I got to my sister's to pick DDs up. He called again while I was standing in the house....then I just shut my cell phone off. I was with DDs and knew there would not be an emergency with them.

This morning I turned my cell phone back on, he has left two messages and had called at least 8 times...it doesn't record missed calls when the cell phone is off. According to my sister, WH had called DDs every 1/2 hour small talked and asked them where I was, what I was doing, etc, and kept checking to see if I had picked them up yet.

Then he called DD13 after I had picked them up. He obviously asked if they were with me. Then he asked what I got them for v-day..and just chit chatted in general. DD13 seemed pretty depressed last night. My sister said she barely ate dinner and didn't want to do anything but sit and watch TV. His calling them is just so excessive, I don't know what to do about it.

Then my mother got an email from WH this morning saying he wanted to know why I didn't ask him to have DDs when I was out...this is supposedly what he left as a voicemail last night. He also sent a slew of questions to her yesterday that I had her respond to with "BS has no comment". He also tells her he feels I am shutting him out of DDs lives.

This is what she sent today in response to his demand for answer to his questions:



What do ya think?

I like the response, but I'm no pro... I think your mom is going to have to repeatedly remind him of it. You two might want to put together a generic paragraph that she can just keep cutting and pasting.

And here's your pat on the back, you deserve it.

I am saddened about your DD though... I wish he'd pull his head out of his [censored] and have some REAL concern for her well being. He's acting like he's in high school for God sake. He's a parent, act like it!!

IMO, he likes to control you and will start to freak more and more as he loses his grip.

Much better

I would be nice if you found a way in the future to not even discover what he wanted at all. If the questions or reason for his call(s) is irrelevant then you shouldn't even be privy to the fact he tried to call you.

Then YOU get even MORE peace. His rantings and ravings and trying to get you out of Plan B don't cause any drama in your life.

He shouldn't be able to call the DD's that much either. Might have to manage their cell phone(s) too.

Mr. Wondering

PS - Love Love Love the "LCS POS LL"... I LMAO at that!!!!

You go girl!!

OMG--I love the incoming identifier--LCS POS LL--that is [email]d@mned[/email] funny! Good for you. I agree with Mr.W though, it would be even better for you if you do not hear anything at all that is irrelevant or does not directly concern the transition of kids to each parent!

You deserve a great big HUG and huge Pat on the back. What you did last night is very difficult for a BS in Plan B. Keep it up, the darker you are the harder it is for WS to put any of the problems caused BY him on YOU...

And my ringback tone is "Blaze of Glory" by Bon Jovi... so he had to listen to that every time. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

If I new when he would be calling I'd change it to Brooks & Dun "That's What She Gets for Loving Me". H always said that song reminded him of me. Kind of ironic now...especially the first line.

That's What She Gets For Loving Me
(Ronnie Dunn/Terry McBride)

She said what she wants is a man to be faithful
A true heart somebody willin’ and able
To stay by her side through thick and thin
A tender touch every now and then

She’s not hung up on fairy tales
Or some dream at the bottom of a wishin’ well
Fancy cars or diamond rings
What she wants most are the little things

That’s what she gets
That’s what she gets
That’s what she gets for loving me

At times I lay awake at night
Stare at her laying by my side
Knowin’ there in her heart as she sleeps
She can forever count on me

That’s what she gets
That’s what she gets
That’s what she gets for loving me

Whatever turns her on
I’m here to do it
Till the day they write my name in stone
I’ll live to prove it

That’s what she gets
That’s what she gets
That’s what she gets for loving me

That’s what she gets
That’s what she gets
That’s what she gets for loving me

Sounds like a great job, Fox. Keep up the good work.

Thanks for all the pats, everyone. (and Mr. W, you are hard to please <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />)

The latest....WH had DDs after school yesterday (our agreed upon day) and as agreed I picked them up early so he could go to a concert. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> DD13 has been really quiet and withdrawn the last two days.

I talked to her a little bit this morning and she said she just wasn't feeling good. I felt it was more than that and told her she could talk to me if she needed to.

She waited a couple of minutes and then told me they saw OW again last night. WH had a surprise for them and took them to WH/OW house to show them. It ended up being something for their rooms at his house. OW said hi and kept working at the computer. Said bye when they left and that was it.

I can't really tell if it was something that bothered her or if she really isn't feeling well.

Anyhow, without knowing this, I took DDs out for dinner and a place to play a bunch of games and we had a pretty good time. Although DD13 seemed withdrawn, just told me she was tired. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

I'll just continue to watch and comfort her, I guess. I don't have any control over anything else.

How ironic, I "heard" you were bad at spelling...or was that typing???? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Sorry if I sounded snippy. I was a work and post a little more direct as I get interrupted often.

Besides, implementing Plan B is not supposed to be a long drawn out process. You are either in it or not. Being in Plan B is where the processing occurs.

Mr. Wondering

p.s.- my posts are littered with mispellings and typing error. I am only kiddin'

What're you talkin' bout? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I hear you loud and clear about Plan B, thank you for the pushes. I prefer to have it told to me like it is, no sunshine being blown where it shouldn't be.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> WH called me at the office this morning.

After I gave my welcoming spiel:
WH: Hey
BS: Is this an emergency?
WH: (speaking very quickly to get it out) Kinda, do you know what the symptoms of salmonella are? You need to watch DD13. She ate peanut butter at my mom's yesterday and now there is a recall for the peanut butter, something about a salmonella outbreak. I knew you would know what the symptoms are and what to do about it. My mom checked the peanut butter jar and it does have the numbers they were showing on tv that could be contaminated. So I wanted to tell you to watch her.
BS: I'll watch her. Thanks for letting me know. Bye
And I hung up.

I'm sure I should have done better. It was NOT an emergency and I let him talk.

Any suggestions? Thoughts?

Maybe this is why DD13 isn't feeling well.....except she was withdrawn and quiet on Tuesday also.

also....when I took DDs out last night, all of us shut our cell phones off. So it could be just US. WH was busy at the concert anyway. But even after we got home I had them shut the phones off at 9pm. WH has a habit of calling them right before they go to bed at 9:30.

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/sho...;gonew=1#UNREAD

Have you read this tread? I thought since both of you are dealing with WH's trying to force C during Plan B it might be helpful.

I found this on salmonella http://www.about-salmonella.com/page3.htm

We had a jar of that peanut butter too, and it is almost all gone. I suppose there is a chance she got some of the bad peanut butter, but I'd say the chance is small. I think millions of people had that PB.

He's gonna use any excuse he can to get contact with you. Some observations about your WH if I may...

He said in your blow up convo a few days ago, well yelled, why won't you let me go? It seems he's the one that won't let go. You'd think if he truly wanted you to "let him go" he'd be happy with plan B. It all comes down to a matter of control IMO... which brings me to the next observation.

He likes to control you and incite drama. He is mad about having to do email correspondence with you so he sends you visitation schedules and then tacks on a short deadline for response when he KNOWS that with email that is not realistic. He calls your DD's relentlessly because that is a window into your life, therefore giving him a sense of control. He acts as if you and MOW's H are already living together or something. He talks to your DD's about it to stir up trouble and attempt to make you look bad. He can't stand you being on higher moral ground than him. Him showing up at the rodeo proves to me he is likes the drama. Come on, if you guys are O-V-E-R then who cares who you are at the friggin' rodeo with??

I get the feeling that the more you pull away from his drama-fest and let him stew in his own juices the R with OW will begin to loose it's luster. He moved out from living with you straight into living with her. Not a bright idea. She still has lingering issues with her H too. I think if both of you started ignoring them, there is a good chance the house of cards would start to fall. There will be no more "forbidden romance" to fuel the fire.

Of course, the question is, if he ever did come back around, would you want him at this point?

Bravo on turning off the phones, the man needs to get a grip. It's on thing for you two to be going rounds, but he needs to let his DD's have some peace. Geesh...

Being around a WS and OW is enough to make anyone sick. Tell you D, we hope she gets well soon. Not to worry....the germs from the OW are not contagious. Ow just needs to be sprayed with roach spray. LOL!!!!

How stupid of the WS to bring your child around the OW. Then again, it just goes to show how stupid the WS are capable of being. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

L.

I agree with Orchid. It just proves how far they have their head up their @$$. Your DD is withdrawn and upset because her dad doesn't seem to want to face the fact it is painful for them to see their mom replaced by some stranger overnight. Sure, he thinks he "knows" her, but to them, she's just someone who broke up their family.

bumping for FNH... how are you hun?

Good morning, thanks for checking in with me.

DD13 is doing well. No salmonella poisoning <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> We talked for a little while again last night after WH brought them home. Interesting...

I don't understand why he wants so much drama. He never used to be that way. We were not public display kind of people. He wouldn't even kiss me in public let alone have a screaming match.

Yesterday morning was just more drama. He brough OW out to my house to confront me. !? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> Had to call the sheriff who recommended I get a no contact order or restraining order.

Have to get some work done and then I'll be back to finish the story.

WTF?????? Please, update!

WOW, please do. Your Plan B is definitely working- he's really scrambling to have some kind of contact.

I hope you told her that just a day or so ago he was asking if he could come back home. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I had to come back and say something, without even knowing what happened. It seems your WH can't let you go on peacefully. You shutting yourself off and going dark is sending him off the deep end. It seems he will go to any lengths necessary to pull you back into the triangle. Plan FU and a restraining order are good ideas at this point in time.

I haven't even read your update and I'm furious (for you) that he brought OW over to confront you... THE NERVE OF HIM!

Oh how I wish my EX WW would bring the OM over to confront me.....

Confront you about what?? About calling them out on their sleazy azzed affair, the impact its having on children, about your Plan B to protect yourself??

please update.

Sounds like ultimate foggy behavior.

Perhaps WH thinks "If F&H just met OW, she'd see she doesn't represent any risk to the children...in fact, F&H just might like her...she's good people"

Yeah right.

I don't know, waywards just get this sense of entitlement like if you meet OW you will see that they just have to be together. It's a desparate and dramatic move to attempt to instill normalcy to the relationship. When you resisted condoning it...the conflict ensued.

I'd like to hear more details before saying follow through with the restraining order. Such order may actually play right into OW's hands...as in, she gets to play the victim. If she is not directly threatening you and you do not fear her it is unlikely such order would be advised UNLESS you can obtain one keeping her away/restraining her from contact with your children at the same time.

Mr. Wondering

The sheriff advised it, so maybe there is merit to it.

? ? ? ? ? ?

there's a pretty big update missing.....

Sorry, it's taken me so long. Too much work and then I get carried away reading other threads. Hiding from my own, I guess.

Monday was a holiday and DDs had no school. A couple of weeks ago WH had asked if DDs could spend the day at his mother's. She was inviting their cousins also. DDs were really looking forward to it. However, WH did not take care of the details. Like how DDs were going to get to MIL that morning. Typical.....he seems to think things "just happen". Which means....BS will do it.

I didn't have to work that day and wasn't planning on coming into town. This was his plan and his request, I think he should make all the arrangements. In the past, anytime DDs were going to spend the day with MIL, they would spend the night before. That way they didn't have to get up early and it was easier on whoever would have to take them there. There was some discussion about this and I said whatever was easiest for DDs and MIL was fine with me.

That became the plan......until OW talked to her H and found out that he couldn't take their DS (it was OW day to have their S). OW and WH both had to work. OW and WH are convinced that OW H and I are "seeing" each other and if we have no kids will get together for the night. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

So WH told DDs that they couldn't spend the night at MIL, he would pick them up at 7 in the morning. Which only made it more of a pain for him and for DDs. Made no difference to me. I made blueberry muffins and sent DDs out the door with a bag of them. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" /> Yummy smells from home.

OW H and I have become friends and as I said before, exchange information, etc. We talk often and I encourage him to check out this site and share what I have learned here. Occasionally, we go to lunch together. Public places, etc. I KNOW the danger here. I've felt how easily it could slip into something more, just because we are both in such emotional turmoil and it feels good to have someone be nice and on the same side of this. 'nuf said. I know the danger of this.

OW H asked me to go with him to deliver meat to one of his hunters in a town a couple of hours away. It was a beautiful day and the drive is gorgeous. And he's a nice guy. I felt I could go have a nice day and not have any "relationship" pressure. I was wrong.

OW H came to pick me up. I wasn't quite ready and he came in the house and sat down to wait for me. A few minutes later, WH shows up. Immediately followed by OW. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> I locked the door.

WH knocked on the door. I didn't answer...this wasn't going to be a friendly little chit chat. He started banging on the door. When I still didn't answer...he started calling the house phone, then my cell phone, then walked around the house banging on the windows....calling, calling, calling.

Then OW came and knocked on the door. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> There SHE was, standing at my door, like she had ANY right to be there. It took all I had in me not to open that door and knock her on her a$$! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> SHE makes me more mad than WH. Just seeing her there at my door, just about flipped me out. I never knew there could be so much RAGE in me!

I REALLY wanted to go out and get into it with them. Who the he!! do they think they are? I live 20 miles out of town. They both had to make an EFFORT to check on me and see who was at my house, and whoever wasn't doing the checking, got the phone call from the other one. They drove out in separate cars.

Anyway, OW H and I decided it would be best to just wait for them to leave. OW H was not easy to convince, though. He has his own RAGE to deal with. But no good would come if it. It would just be a huge fist fight and people would end up in jail....it would just get worse. I convinced OW H not to give them what they wanted. Confrontation....they need to drag us into the chaos to justify themselves.

Eventually, they quit banging on the doors, etc and things got quiet. Which made me suspicious. I looked out the window and WH had the hood up on my truck. I assume he was looking for a way to disable it. Gotta love those diesel trucks....no coil wire to pull. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> But SHE had her hands on my truck <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> RAGE all over again....almost brought me out of the house. Then WH got inside the truck and looked through things, under seat, etc....for what, I don't know. Condoms maybe? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> Geez

That's the point where I called the sheriff. Enough is enough. Then I called WH on his cell and told him I'd called the sheriff and he needed to leave. He said they couldn't do anything...MT is community property state and the truck is his too. (unfortunately, that's true)

WH and OW left before the sheriff got there. He called me again, and I answered this time. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" /> More accusations, name calling, history re-writing, telling me what a poor mother I am, etc, etc. I remained calm, which just makes him more mad. Finally, I said "what do you want from me, WH, what exactly do you want from me right now?" He said quietly, "I don't know". Then he got mad again and started ranting and raving. My call waiting beeped and I told him I had to go, the sheriff was on the other line and hung up.

When the sheriff finally arrived, I told her what had happened and she told me she couldn't do much but file a report. She recommended I get a TRO or No Contact order to keep him from making these kind of scenes.

The kids weren't there, it had nothing to do with the kids. Although at the beginning of the phone conversation with him, he yelled that he was going to get DDs and bring them back home. I think so he would show them that he "caught" me with OW H. DDs already knew where I was going that day. I think that is why he was trying to disable my truck.

When we got ready to leave, we realized OW had taken her H's keys out of his truck. Again, I think, so WH could get DDs and "catch" us together. They already knew, there was no "catching" about it. Only WH and OW didn't know.

I called DDs to check on them and explained a little about the situation and to call me if WH came and picked them up. OW H had an extra key....after talking with the sheriff we continued on with the plans for the day.

WH brought DDs home as scheduled later that night and I have not heard from him since.

I talked to my lawyer (finally called me back this morning) and explained the situation to him. We talked about a restraining order and no contact order. We've decided my best bet is for my lawyer to contact his lawyer and tell him to leave me alone or I'll have to file for a restraining order. If it continues, than we'll file.

WH just seems so insane right now. When I was talking to WH on the phone, I asked him why he wasn't leaving me alone. I thought he wanted to be happy and have nothing to do with me? He said he is happy "you have no idea how happy I am" I told him he can keep his kind of happiness, that he looks sick. Not eating, not sleeping, flipping out all the time. Odd kind of happiness.

I asked him what the point of him and OW coming to my house was, what was he supposed to gain out of that? He said to prove that I'm doing the same thing he is and I have no right to judge him. I told him nothing was proven, he's made all this stuff up in his head to make himself feel better. It is not what he thinks it is and no matter how hard he tries to bully me into saying it's more, I know better, OW H knows better, and so do DDs.

I don't understand all the drama. What does he get out of that? He does not get what he came for. If anything, it makes it worse for him.

WH and OW have just flipped out that OW H and I have any contact at all. OW talked to her H last night and when she wasn't calling me nasty names and ranting about me, she says "when you and BS get married, she is NOT having anything to do with MY son!" <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" /> They're just nuts, how did they leap this darn far?

It's good to be back at work...where there is a little peace and quiet!

It's poison, Fox. Stay away from it as much as you can. Don't let them suck you into the madness.

And you know you're playing with fire with the OWH, right?

Okay FH....YOU are still married to this (insert word of choice here) for what reason? I don't mean to be ugly but this guy seems whacked out of his mind and has a tag along lunatic of OW trailing him. She sounds as out her mind as he does. I can't imagine being married to either one of them.

I to became friends with OMW. No chance of a R there as she is almost 10 years older than me and a grandmother and Oh yea SANE (unlike my EX WW and Serial cheating old OM who is 23 years older than she and is a grandfather 4 times over).

What have you done legally to protect yourself and your children (I apologize if you've covered this in your thread somewhere)? LSA, temporary order, what???

All this coming from a man who screamed at you recently to just let him go??

He's whacked out of his head and he's determined to make you look bad to make him feel better. You know, even if you did start a relationship with OWH, you are mere weeks maybe months from being divorced. Your marriage is over, he's already living with the OW. It's not the same.

I can't believe THEY don't realize how rediculous they are by showing up at your house like that! Like they have any room to be mad at you two.

How are your DD's doing? All this drama from your STBXH has to be messing with their minds...

OW H is 18 years older than I am, no chance of a R there either. I completely understand the concerns about that. But I know I have enough chaos going on without adding my own R to the mix.

WH is whacked out of his mind right now. He is such a stranger, I would never have thought that he would act this way.

Legally, we are still in limbo. The final date was continued and no further date has been set. I talked to my lawyer this morning and he has been waiting for WH lawyer to get the dates set. I would expect it will be at least another 3 months unless I get an emergency injunction. Which I don't want to do because it force the custody issue too. A set schedule would be good for all of us, except for I lose what little control I have in regards to DDs spending overnights at his house when OW is there.

If this is the type of person WH is now, I don't want him. I want to be as far away from him as possible. But what if WH isn't here to stay and H eventually returns? Where is the deadline where I say, "you've been a nut for long enough and even if you change your ways now, it's too late, I don't want anything to do with you"

If I knew he was going to act like this forever, I'd be done in a heartbeat. But will he?

As far as OW is concerned, if this was going to happen, I'm glad it happened with someone like her. She is a lunatic and he will never be happy with her. WH or H.

What do you mean, sdguy038? A possible relationship with OW H or just having anything to do with him that causes more chaos with WH?

I'm aware of the problems with a possible relationship with OW H and won't go there. He's a friend...probably one that I will have for a very long time. He is/was a part of my support system. Knowing much more about what I was truly going through than anyone else I could/can talk to. Other than this forum. It just isn't that.


If it's about not causing more chaos from WH. I'm not sure I care about that anymore, other than for DDs sake. It's causing WH some pain and that isn't necessarily bad.

DDs seem to be doing ok. They aren't around when it happens. I did call to check on them after WH said he was going to go get them and bring them back to the house. I told DD13 a little bit about what happened and to call me if Dad came and picked them up.

He didn't go get them. He called DD13 shortly after I had and asked if she talked to me. She told him yes and he said "what'd she have to say". DD13 said I was just checking on them. Bad, bad spot for DD13.

I have a hard time deciding how much to tell DDs. What is enough but not too much? Some I think is important for them to know, but I don't want them to have to deal with anything more than absolutely necessary.



I asked him about this when we were on the phone:

BS: I thought you wanted me to let you go. I'm doing that. I haven't called you or contacted you in anyway. Why can't you do the same, I've asked you to leave me alone, not to call, not to email, not to see me at all. Why were you here?

WH: I want to move on with my girls.
BS: They aren't here today, they had nothing to do with why you showed up today. Why were you here?
WH: I just want to go on with my life and have my daughters as part of it. I left you, I didn't leave them.
BS: They weren't here. How was today about them?
WH: You're keeping me from DDs.
BS: DDs were at your mother's. Why were you here?

Then it turned bad....he called me names and started again with the accusations... yelling, etc. It turns bad because he has no answer. He was NOT at my house about DDs. It was about me.

I am trying to stay as much out of it as I can. He is self-destructing right before my eyes.

I should not have answered the phone after he left. But I was concerned he was going to get DDs and drag them into this too. I was hoping to talk some sense into him about that. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> I should have known better. But then again, he didn't go get them and bring them back.

He is using your DD's as an excuse. It's good that you kept coming back to the fact that they were not at home. I'm sure OW is pissed that you didn't want you around your DD's and she is also pissed that you and her H are pals now. I imagine it makes them uncomfortable that you could be exchanging information about them, nevermind the fact they probably discussed you two with each other all throughout their A. WS's love to dish it but most can't take it in return from my experience.

This is why I was saying to be careful with how your email exchanges regarding your DD's is worded. Document Document Document your efferts so he can't try to slander you in the courts. I have the feeling they are in this united against you and MOWH mode and it will get worse before it gets better. It sucks that the D is dragging on, the less that's lingering out there for you the better. Visitation needs to be set so he can't claim you are withholding DD's. Him showing up at your house to cause trouble like that does not make him look good to the courts, IMO. I hope you have the whole thing documented. Right down to the fact DD's were at HIS MOTHERS HOUSE. If he wanted to spend time with them SO BAD he could have gone there instead. Just like the night of the rodeo.

Sigh... Hang in there FNH. I'm sorry your STBXH is being so nutso.

Big sigh....

DD12 had a ski day today at school. WH went with her (first year EVER). I called DD12 when she was on her way back to school from the ski hill (she was on the bus) and told her I would pick her up from school. The original plan was for her to ride the bus to my mother's like they do every day. But DD13 was home sick and I had plans right after work so it was easier for me to pick her up at the school and bring her back to work with me.

She said WH was planning on taking her home. At what point was he going to tell me this? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> I told her he didn't need to take her home, either I could pick her up at school or he could bring her to my office. He was not on the bus with her, he had to drive separately. I told her if anything changed, she needed to call me.

A few minutes later she called and said WH wanted to take her home. I said no, he could just bring her to my office or I would pick her up. She said he said he wanted to see DD13 since she was home sick. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> Since when has he ever checked on DDs when they are home sick? Oh well, doing better now, I guess. I said that was fine that he takes DD12 home and checks in on DD13.

But it bothers me. Why does he think he can go into my house when I'm not home? Am I going to be allowed to go into his house when DDs start staying there and stay home sick? I doubt it. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

So, both reasons, actually, although I was more worried about forming a relationship with OW H. Just be careful with it.

The infidels in my situation also lose it when OMW and I talk, and while I don't mind them losing it, I'm beginning to think it just gives them more fuel for their affair. You two against them. If you ignore them and don't give them that fuel, they have to come up with their own inertia to keep the affair going.

How you proceed probably depends upon what you want. I hear you questioning whether you want your H back at all. You know you don't want WH back, but he's a fogged-out zombie, so that's not really the question. If you think you might want your H back, get back on your Plan B and stay dark. Stop talking to him (let's see...where have I heard this before?). The more exposure you have to the alien, the less interest you'll have when the A dies. At least, that's what I hear.

Double check your computer for keyloggers and look around carefully for a bugging device or recorder. He may have wanted to spy on you. Ask DD's what rooms he entered. Check any auto that was there also. More likely he just wanted to snoop around for letters, emails, undergarments, etc....anything to PROVE you are actually having an affair with OWH.

Talk to OWH on the phone or in public but don't get caught again anywhere alone with him. The implications can and will be used against you in court AND/OR in the court of public opinion. He will forever use the rationalization and justification that YOU had an affair as why you guys didn't or couldn't reconcile. He may not ever even mention his own infidelity. He will most likely say the same thing to your daughters as they grow older. With time he can skew the perceptions to make the whole dissolution just a matter of he said/she said and irreconcilable differences thus absolving himself. Kids and others won't know what to believe so won't believe either of you...live and let live.

Your children will suffer because of this. They won't absolutely know the truth. YOU are still a married woman that should not be going on "dates" with anyone let alone a nearly divorced man (He is still married too so the same thing applies to him???). IMO, once you are both divorced, it's still not a very good idea to be too close with OWH, kids are confused enough.

"It feels good"...come on, your integrity (in reality and as perceived by your children) is more important than this temporary attention you are receiving. Further, you may believe making WH jealous or maybe you feel like you are getting some revenge on him by giving him the perception you and OWH are hooking up. This is NOT how a married woman should behave. It's making things worse, not better.

Sorry for the 2 x 4. I'll be out of town for a few days. Hope I come back and you are doing great. We are trying to help you...not drive you away.

Mr. Wondering

So what happened?

L.

This is a common problem when people split up and there are children involved old enough to have a key or are able to let the parent in. I know my mom and dad fought over this when they D'd. All the more reason to speed up that divorce and change the locks, but your D's could still give him the key... Tough situation. You might want to ask your lawyer what you can do about this.

WH didn't go in the house yesterday. DD13 went outside and talked to him. He was there for just a few minutes, didn't get out of his vehicle at all (OW Jeep)

I, too, think it gives them more fuel for their affair. I am ignoring him the best I can, he is the one tracking me down. On one hand, I think I should lay low and not allow anything to happen that would provide more fuel. But on the other hand, I think "screw him, why does he think he has the right to tell me what to do and to judge me at all?"

At the same time that it is pushing them closer, it is also a drain. They are ranting and raving so much about what they think OW H and I are doing, they aren't spending quality time together. If their goal is to be happy, this won't get them there.

OW told her H that if he wasn't "seeing" me, they would have a chance at getting back together. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> OWH said "alright, I won't "see" her...when you are moving out of the house you share with WH?" Silence ensued.

The intent is not to make them jealous. I wish they never knew we ever talked. Secret intel carries a little more weight when it's actually a secret. But I also won't deny I get a little satisfaction out of them going insane about it. Reinforces how foggy they really are.

And I do know how bad that looks that OWH was at my house and that we were going somewhere together. But truly, not a "date". I do see what it looks like, though, and it does concern me now that it was pointed out. It was innocent to me, but I understand what it can be manipulated and used against me. Won't happen again.

Thank you all for pointing these things out. I know you are here to help and not chase me away. That's why I give you complete information, not filtered so you see me in the best light. 2x4s are difficult to receive, but necessary.

Thank you for not getting frustrated with me and leaving me. I appreciate all of you a great deal. I know you all have your own things going on, and I am grateful that you will come here and give me your viewpoints.

Well... it's pretty obvious that it's driving them crazy that you two have contact. I know it's tempting to rattle their cages some more, I mean, what right to the really have to be telling either of you what to do? They are still married to other people and they are living together yet they are throwing demands around and acting like nutcases...

But, maybe the others are right though and no more fuel should be thrown on the fire.

The [email]d@mn[/email] attorneys need to hurry up!

I need a little advice on how to handle tonight with a true Plan B.

DDs have a chorus concert. Today is WH regularly scheduled day. He has them from 2:45pm until 7:30pm. DD12 concert starts at 7pm. DD13 starts at 8pm.

WH will take them there. My plan was to be there also, but to sit in the back, away from WH. Then when DD13 was finished, they could come find me and I would take them home.

I feel a little odd about doing that for DDs sake. Although, I have discussed with them why I can't be around WH anymore. Would it be better for me to not go at all? I've never missed one of their concerts. And if I don't go, WH has something else to use against me with his lawyer. First I didn't go to parent/teacher conferences, and second, I didn't go to DDs concert.

Any thoughts?

Go and stay very very very far away from WH. If he comes near you, move. You shouldn't have to avoid these events. If he harasses you at all or makes you fearful of your safety, call the cops.

Is there anyone you could take with you? Besides OWH? Hee hee, just giving you a hard time...

Do you think he'll show up with OW?

I'm conflicted about that, too. Whether I want the attorneys to hurry up or not. I do for financial and stability reasons. But then I think, if it gets drug out long enough, things could change. But I don't know if I want it to change.....I'm still so confused about what I want to have happen. I really really wonder if H ever returns, could it ever work, would he ever deal with what happened or would it all still be blamed on me? And should I allow him that second chance after all he has done.

When is it just enough already? Will he admire that I put up with so much and still offered him another chance or will he completely disrespect me, and think I'm a fool for putting up with so much?

The way our court system is going now, I doubt we can get a new final date before the end of May. That's 10 months after the A started and 8 months after they started living together. Alot of things can change by then. Will it be better or worse?

No, I don't think he will bring OW. I have a feeling he is a bit afraid of how DDs are going to be with her (and her with them). He pushed it some, but now has backed of a bit.

I don't think he'll harass me or give me any trouble with DDs right there. I'm sure he'll be putting on a show for them about how reasonable he is and how he will do whatever it takes to get along for them. While Mom is being childish and won't even sit by him for their sake.

Can you bring someone else with you?
A friend, a sister?
Someone that can be both a witness and a buffer to prevent him from coming near you?

I agree -- don't avoid events.

Are you getting a restraining order?
That will keep him away.

Just asked my sister if she will come with me. Waiting for response.



I am not getting a restraining order right now. I have a police report filed over the last incident and my lawyer is going to call his lawyer and warn him to leave me alone. If ANYTHING else happens, I will file a restraining order.

How did it go last night? Was your sister able to go with you?

No, my sister was not able to go with me. Everything went alright, though.

I arrived a few minutes late, the only lights on were the ones on the stage. I was able to slip in one of the seats in the back by the door where the kids come out from backstage. DD12 was on stage first. DD13 was sitting with WH.

When DD12 finished, she came out of the backstage door and was able to see me right away. She sat down with me for a few minutes and then went to WH who was sitting on the other side of the auditorium towards the front. DD13 went onstage without noticing I was there (different door to go onstage).

DD12 sat with WH for about 10 minutes (I assumed she would sit with him the whole time and that was fine...it was his night), but then she came and sat with me for all of DD13's performance. Leaving WH to sit by himself. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" /> His idea or hers? I don't know. I kind of doubt it was his.

When DD13 came offstage, she immediately saw me and we talked for a couple of minutes and then she went to WH. DD12 went with her to say goodbye to WH.

DD12 then came back to me and DD13 stayed with WH. I'd forgotten we would have to go to his truck afterwards to get their backpacks since he picked them up from school. I had made sure I parked on the other side of the school than WH. But then I had to go there anyway. DD12 came with me and we drove over to his truck to pick up their bags.

I did not say a word to him, he did not say a word to me. But I did notice when DD12 was sitting with him and DD13 was backstage, WH kept turning around and searching the crowd. Didn't see me though, until DD12 came back to sit with me.

WH left the auditorium on one side of the room and I left it on the other. Unfortunately, everyone comes back together at the front to go out the main doors. And somehow we got there at exactly the same time---and he walked out the door directly behind me.

We never made eye contact and neither of us said anything.

Good!!! I'm so happy to hear there wasn't any drama!

I'm taking DDs out of town for the weekend. Here's hoping we can get some peace!

I hope you gals enjoyed your weekend together! Did you have any good heart to hearts and eat junk food?

Had a GREAT girls weekend with DDs and my little sister! Was very good. Not really any heart to hearts...just relaxation and good times.

DD13 talked to WH on Saturday and said he sounded pretty down and was missing them. I thought I would be nice and offer him a few hours on Sunday afternoon. We left the cabin early so they could have some extra time with him.

DD13 called him Sunday morning and gave him the offer. The plan was for DD13 to call him when we got back to town and he would come pick them up, spend a few hours, and bring them back home in time to settle and get ready for school the next day. When DD13 called and told him we were home, he said ok "we'll be right out". After they hung up DD13 told me he said "we" but she didn't know who the "we" was.

So I was waiting outside when WH arrived....in her Jeep... with her (with a little smirk on her face, like she got one over on me). <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

They left without DDs.

I think I'm done with Plan B (I wasn't any good at it anyway) and I'm doing Plan FU.

WH says he knows when our final court date is. Which just irks the heck out of me. I HATE being out of the loop. I called my lawyer first thing this morning and the District Court Clerk to find out the date. Left messages for both.

I'm just done with this crap....I try to be nice and he kicks me in the teeth again.

Why didn't DD's go with WH? Inquiring minds want to know...

I'm glad to hear that you had a great time with DD's. It must be great to get away!

This weekend was a wash for me. Not much alone time with WH. He was busy with work, trying to meet a deadline for tuesday. DS has been sick, AGAIN, so we didn't do much with him, either. It snowed Sunday morning (about 5 inches) so I went outside in the afternoon to do some shoveling. I cleaned my car off, and shoveled my way out of the driveway. I was standing by my car when my moon-roof made a horrendous crackling noise. It COMPLETELY cracked away from the frame. I'm waiting now to hear from the glass repair company; sounds like I'll be out of a car for the rest of the week.

Right, why did your DD's stay home?

I had a nice weekend, the weather is beautiful in central Texas these days...

DDs did not go with WH because I wouldn't let them. He will not bring OW to my house and think I'm going to go along with it.

I walked up to the window:

BS: Are you kidding me? You brought HER here? I try to be nice and this is what you do? Forget it, I'm not sending them out to you with her here. Goodbye" And I turned and walked into the house and locked the door.

Then I told DDs they couldn't go because he brought OW. And explained to them why...how disrespectful it is to me and to them. I apologized for the situation but told them I had to stand up for what I believe in. And then had a discussion with them about sticking up for what they believe in. With both of us. And how important it is for them to tell us exactly what they are feeling, we both need to know where they are at with things. I reassured them that no matter what they said WH and I would ALWAYS love them.

WH called and sat outside my house for 1/2-45 minutes arguing about why I wouldn't let DDs come out. Same thing over and over and over again. He finally left, lost the signal, and then called me back. For another hour long "conversation".

I spoke calmly and quietly the whole time. Restating facts about DDs and what this does to them and repeatedly asking him to be careful with DDs feelings, etc. Always calm, always stating the same thing over and over. While he screamed, yelled, cussed, accused, etc. What the heck was SHE thinking while he is sitting in the car ranting and raving like a lunatic?

Darn it! Why can't I stay in Plan B?! I REALLY want to Plan FU. I am so sick of getting walked on and disrespected and having him flaunt her in my face. I'm just fed up! We had such a great weekend and then it went to he!! as soon as he was back in it.

Just got off the phone with my lawyer, he is going to track down the final D date and get something rolling for child support in the meantime.

So much for WH moving slowly and phasing HER in. Since he has introduced them, he has seen them 3 times. Two of those three DDs have seen her. The only reason it wasn't three out of three is because DDs had a concert and OW had her son. For whatever reason, OW and WH don't want the kids to meet yet. The kids aren't the problem! They would have seen her 3 out of 4 times if I had let them go yesterday. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

Tonight is his regularly scheduled evening. I bet he is going to take DDs to his house with HER, just to show me he can. Or maybe not, WH will have her DS7. And the kids meeting is taboo!

Hopefully, DDs will talk to him and tell him what they feel. I don't think he will listen or believe any of it if it isn't what he wants to hear, but hopefully it will make him think. If he has a brain left at all.....

fox, I feel your pain. I fortunately don't have the OP present to worry about meeting the kids yet, just his spirit or should I demon.

You need to stand up for your girls, you need to demonstrate to them what respect is and what boundaries are.

Stay strong stay couragous

Plan B is TOUGH, especially when you have to iron out visitation with the children on the fly.

I like the fact that you have expressed to your children WHY you do what you do, and that you express to them that openness and honesty from them is welcomed. Have your children expressed their opinions as of yet? I would hate to think that they would rather spend some time with their dad (even if OW is around) than to have that time taken from them. They were expecting to spend time with DAD, maybe even looking forward to it, and then, WHAM, that changes, too.

I had a pretty strict visitation schedule agreement with my WH, so I didn't deal with a lot of what you are, and I feel for you. Don't get me wrong here, I wouldn't want my son with OW EVER, but I didn't want my son to suffer either. It's a slippery slope, and you are doing what your heart and mind guide you to do. I have the utmost respect for that...

I get the feeling a lot of this is being egged on by MOW. For some reason their pea brains are freaking over your freindship with OWH. You guys are able to compare notes on them, you've flipped the script and they are going to move mountains to separate you two. If that means messing with you over visitation, pushing the one button that upsets you the most, then that's what they'll do. I wonder if your H is around when they exchange their son. I think she was in the background when all of this was going on just loving it, you two were fighting, her goal was accomplished.

It is good you stood your ground and told your D's your reasoning. I am proud of you FNH!

Thanks for all the feedback. Yes, it is the one button that WH knows he can push that will bring me out of the house and into his face no matter what my PLAN is.

DD13 has expressed her feelings to me. Not to WH..and WH is the one that needs to hear what she says. I again suggested that she write him a letter.

I feel that DDs were relieved that they didn't have to go. They do not want time with her, they want undivided attention with their dad. Before DD13 called WH when we got home she asked me to ask DD12 if she REALLY wanted to go, she sounded hesitant but if DD12 wanted to go, she would too.

I don't want my DDs to suffer, either. I do know time with their dad is important and I know they will sacrifice their feelings no matter who is around so they can spend time with their dad. It is not right for them to have to do that. Just being in his presence is not spending time with him and does not make them feel better about the situation or about him. I think they feel obligated to do that for him because that is the only way he will see them.

I handled it the best way I could in the moment. I'm sure I could have done things differently (like NOT answering the phone) but I did the best I could. I REFUSE to be walked on and I REFUSE to let him walk on DDs.

No, WH is not around when MOW and her H exchange their son. MOWH has been dreading that and trying to figure out how he is going to handle it when/if it happens.

OW may have felt that her goal was accomplished with WH and I fighting, but won't she get fed up with hearing the same thing over and over and over again? I sure do! Wouldn't the chaos and drama get tiresome to her to?

I think you did the right thing, then, judging from what your DD's have told you. It's a tough thing for a daughter/son to tell their GROWN parent that they don't want to see them, due to their behavior, but I think it would do a lot of WS's good to KNOW the truth from their kids.

I guess the only advice I have for you is this...

STAY IN PLAN B NO MATTER WHAT WH DOES!!!

(((((fox)))))

How should I have handled it in true Plan B form? Sent them out to WH/OW and just let it be or done the initial confrontation with him, go in the house and NOT answer the phone?

I imagine this is going to happen again, any suggestions on the best way to handle it the next time it happens?

Thank you all for your input, I know I'm frustrating.... I frustrate myself!

I wish I knew the answer. After a week of having the kids to myself, they're back with WW now, and I fully expect OM will be around again soon. I think that there is nothing I can do about it short of accelerating the divorce and initiating a custody battle, so I'm going to play it cool. I'm not going to ask the kids whether or not OM was there. If I find out that he was, I'm not going to react and let it trigger me. If the kids want to talk about it, I will, but I won't poison them (something my WW has accused me of). I also won't lie to them. I won't make them talk about it. If they complain about anything that happens with WW, I will help them write a letter to WW (suggestion from Jennifer).

And I will stay dark.

My advice is to form some kind of understanding with WH about DDs. I think the best would be if you could communicate to him "Look, DDs don't want to be around OW so if OW is with you when it's time for the transfer, there will be no transfer, no discussion, end of story, don't bother calling because I won't pick up." I would want to be careful about not putting words in DDs mouths, so it would be best if they could express how they feel about OW to WH (letter?). Alternatively, you could just decide that if OW is with him at transfer time, then it won't happen etc. and tell him that, too. Make it clear what's going to happen so that you don't have to get engaged in the conversation, which is where the real poison is.

The whole situation is frustrating... I can't say I wouldn't have done the same in your place. Maybe a Plan B guru will come along... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Thanks, sdguy038. The contact between OP and the kids is the hardest thing to get through. The protection instinct is strong. A HUGE trigger for me that I don't think is going to get better. I cannot back off on this. I will fight it every step of the way.

I have encouraged DDs to write WH letters about what they are going through. They just can't right now. Although, I think DD13 is thinking heavily on it, especially after our discussion last night about sticking up for what you believe and not just following along for the sake of keeping the peace.

WH says "if they don't tell meno, even if they feel differently, they are just going to have to deal with it. That's life"

I think WH now understands that if OW is with him, there will be no transfer. I will be watching each and every time now. Before I was trying to stay in Plan B and would just send DDs out to his car when he got there. Not the case now, I will be watching for those sneaky tactics.

You ARE NOT frustrating. What you are doing takes GOBS of energy and perserverence, and coming here for advice is WISE.

Hmmm, I agree that having OW around your children is wrong, and it seems your children agree. Maybe the answer is to try to find a way to convey your CHILDRENS feelings FROM THEM to WH, so that you are not involved. I can't begin to give you tips on this (maybe a letter, as sdguy suggests). I know that I told my son to express his grief to his father, but he is 4, not in his teens. That's a lot of pressure for a young girl.

I would send a message to WH, through intermediary, that you would like to set up a more scheduled thing with the girls for now. Don't be so fluid with them. I know that you would like to provide as much time with their dad as possible, but STRUCTURE may serve you ALL better right now. Just stick to the schedule. Maybe stating, in a very clear, adult manner that you would prefer if OW does not come to YOUR home, or on your property. Maybe others will be able to better guide you with that one.

I wouldn't answer the phone when you KNOW it is going to be confrontational. You have to take the high road. No squabbling; the children see and hear it. NO MORE. You need the calm, serene invironment for the kids, as they are not going to get that from your WH.

It seems to me that the two waywards sure do go out of their way to torment you. Sounds like your Plan B is working. They are focusing on you, not their R, so the darker you go, the more they are forced to DEAL with EACHOTHER, see?

Darkness for you redirects the light on to them...

Thanks, SL, for the validation. It does take so much each and every day. Even Plan B takes alot out of me (even when I am doing it right). Every day it seems it is something else, even just the effort to not let him get to me.

I REALLY hope DDs will write WH letters. I doubt he will believe they came from them, though. He'll think I told them what to say, just like he did for DD13's first letter to him.

Last night was another night of little sleep. Worrying whether or not I did right by DDs or whether I just made it worse.

He told me yesterday that he loved OW and she was in his life "forever" and he just wants DDs involved in his new life because it is important to him and they are important to him. It doesn't hurt like it would have a while ago. I see them failing and both of them hanging on by their fingernails. At this point, I hope they are together for a darn long time...because they won't be happy, just together. As long as my DDs are not unhappy at the same time.



We have a schedule set up through March. He has them the weekend of March 10 and then March 24 to go hunting. If DDs stay overnight at his house with OW on March 10, I will allow them to go hunting on March 24 (w/out OW) but will not set up any more overnights until the D is final. Until then the schedule will be only Monday and Thursday evenings.

I will not condone their A by offering him DDs overnight when I know he is going to take them there with her. If I accept it, I am condoning it and I will not.

I just spoke with DDs, they are at OW/WH house (regularly scheduled visit). OW is still at work. She picks her son up at 4, we'll see how WH is going to play this one. Is today going to be the day DDs meet her DS7 so they can then be around OW whenver? I guess I'll find out tonight.

Thank you for not getting frustrated with me. I'M just so frustrated!

While I prefer DDs not hear my discussion with WH, it's not all bad. I am calm and I repeat the same things over and over. I state my concern for DDs and the harm that is caused by his actions, how this should have never happened, that it is disrespectful to bring her to my house, that it is wrong to introduce your children to your girlfriend while you are still married and she is still married to her H, that I will not allow him to treat me or DDs poorly and I will fight for what I believe in. Calm, quiet, and factual...not a bad thing for DDs to see or hear.

Well, fox, stating your peace is important, and now that you have done it, reiterating it is just continued contact for NO real reason. Your WH KNOWS that you don't want your children involved with OW, as it causes them undue stress and harm. I think it's great for your DD's to see you be calm and assertive. It's a wonderful example. NOW, DARK! okay?

Any time you spend fighting with them takes the focus off of them, and makes a triangle. They then feel like it's them against you. It needs to be them against themselves. Take yourself out, by remaining quiet, and taking GREAT care of yourself and your HOME and your DD's.

BTW, I think you ARE doing GREAT with what you have had to deal with, just breathe...

Thank you, SL, I get it. I am going to create a ticker, so that I have a visual, a goal to work towards. One day at a time.

Your daughters are at a very crucial age for having a good relationship with their dad.
This will be their model relationship for how a man should treat them.

I have a teenage daughter, and the way I approached it with her dad was to ask him to treat his weeknight visits with her as if it was a date. Open doors for her, have her order first at a restaurant, etc. "Date Training"

Maybe your STBX would be more willing to leave OW out of their time together if you could get that message through to him. ??? Just an idea....

I am so aware of what a crucial age they are at and how this can affect their future relationships.

I would LOVE for WH to treat DDs that way. But for me to suggest that to him is telling how he should treat is daughters and he is NOT taking any advice from me.

If I thought this would work...I would have to break Plan B to do it. But maybe I could suggest this to DDs to put in their letters. Not this specific thing, but have them tell him how they would like to be treated...what do DDs want on the days WH has them.

If they are not comfortable telling him what they DON'T want to do, maybe they can tell him what they DO want to do.

Ideas, suggestions?

Actually, I would have loved for H to treat me the way you pointed out throughout our marriage. I would be so impressed if WH would do that for DDs.

He likely won't be able to hear what they tell him anyway, especially if they're not really clear about it, which I can't imagine they would be. I can't see my DS7 ever being able to tell his mother he disapproves of what she's doing--it's just not in him. My DD3, on the other hand, said she was 'going to have a talk with Mommy on Sunday' because she didn't want her to be angry at me anymore (SDGuy chokes up immediately). She doesn't understand what's happening, though.

It would be great if your DDs can tell him themselves they disapprove of what he's doing, but it's a lot to ask. If you can get them to tell you and be confident they're not just telling you what you want to hear, then you can help them tell him. "DDs have told me that they're uncomfortable being around OW, so if she's with you at transfer time, there will be no transfer." and "Yes, I encouraged DDs to tell you themselves, but they are uncomfortable talking to you about it. Maybe if you ask them, they will tell you how they really feel. Until I hear otherwise, this is the way things will be." But again, he will probably pass the message through the FogFilter and not be able to hear it anyway, so the best thing may be to say nothing at all.

I agree with SL's schedule suggestion.

And even if you're calm in what you're saying to him, part of you is still hearing the Fogtalk being spewed at you. You can dissect it as rationally as possible and know that it's Fogtalk, but it still hurts. Stop letting him do that to you. It's a trigger, and it brings Plan FU that much closer.

Good God... what will these two do when there is no drama to fuel their romance?

Any word on the court date from your attorney?

I absolutely agree with this. Even if somehow he does hear what they say, he'll discard it and say that I am the one that told them what to say. If DDs do it, it is for them. To get what they are feeling out in the open. I doubt it will do anything to WH at all. His belief system has totally changed.

When he and I were talking on Sunday after he brought OW to my house, I made a statement about how we used to be raising our children with the same belief system and had agreed on what was right and wrong. I told him his belief system and changed but mine had not and I would continue raising our children as we had agreed.

We had many discussion about infidelity before we got married because he had old girlfriends that had cheated on him. He wanted reassurances from me that I would not do the same. So we discussed it often. We both made promises to each other that if we were not happy in the marriage, we would do everything we could do make it work, if we could not, we would get out of the marriage before we ever turned to an OP. He says that is not what we discussed, he says we both agreed that if either one of us cheated the M would be over. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> That's just stupid.

District Court Clerk called me back today about the final D date that WH said he knew and I didn't. District Court Clerk does not have it scheduled. Sarcastically: I can't believe WH lied to me again. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

I have posted a calendar at my desk at work...every day I complete a successful day in Plan B I circle the date in red. Gives me a visual for my goal. I just need to take each day as it comes. There are no events for DDs and our visitation schedule is set through March.

I will not be offering an extra time for WH and DDs. The schedule as set is the schedule.



This is true....even though I am calm, WH is not. Just his twist on what we agreed regarding infidelity irked me, he KNOWS better! I would never agree to that....it's like saying it could happen, so if it does here is what we will do. No! My take was it WILL NOT happen. I PROMISED I would not cheat and so did he. That is what I went into the M with. Trust that he would not betray me.

Rewriting history... never! A WS never does that! (insert sarcasm)

Keep up plan B to the best of your ability. No more listening to your STBXH'S rantings if at all possible.

((FNH)) I'm pulling for you that it does get better.

Just keep in mind that he believes a lot of what he's spewing. He has to. He's an alien, remember?. I think these people are that messed up.

That's actually what makes me angry. I think he DOES believe it and it's bull.

I know he has to in order to live with himself but, geez! The crazy things he has said and convinced himself of are just nuts.

Yesterday was WH originally scheduled afternoon with DDs. They did not see OW although they were at OW/WH house. When OW got off work and picked up her DS7, WH and DDs left.

DD13 says she thinks I made him hesitate to bring DDs around OW with all the things I said to him. I don't know if WH said anything or that is just her take from overhearing the conversation I had with him on the phone.

DD13 also said WH apologized for what happened. She didn't tell me the specific things he said, just that he apologized. Is he sorry that he brought OW or is he sorry that I made it an issue?

He also told DDs that "OW is really sorry about what happened too, she didn't want it to be a big scene". <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

The scene is already big. The OW is just babbling. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

L.

Trash, that's all I can say about OW. Pure trash. I'm sure she was playing the "oh, I'm so sorry, WH. If I had known your psycho W was going to act that way, I would NEVER have come. I would have stayed home all by my little self so you could have time with your beautiful DDs. You're just soooo important to me and I want to be involved in every aspect of your life." (gag)

I'm tired and worn out today...no particular reason just life at the moment. I didn't sleep well last night again. On the verge of tears for no particular reason.

Yesterday was Day #2 of complete darkness. Today will be Day #3.

Had argument with DD12 last night. Took her cell phone away for a month. I started at a week and she just kept going until I reached a month. When will she learn just to keep the smart mouth shut?

We ended on a good note, though. I was on the couch watching TV after our disagreement and she had gone to her room (door slam and all). About 1/2 hour later, she came out and laid her head on my lap, I stroked her hair, and it was done. I've never seen her give in so quickly. When she gets mad, she stays that way AT LEAST until the next day, usually longer.

Had to change screen name......WH/OW may have found me here.

Fox

I've never understood WHY they come here??

I wonder that, too. If they don't care and he wants away from me so badly, why bother checking into what I am doing/saying?

I don't know for sure that he is here, but he as made comments twice now about my "little online support group". Mainly when he is mad that I talk to OWH and asking why "your little online support group isn't enough".

I'm not even sure if it would be bad for him to read what has gone on here, but I don't think he would take it at face value. He would twist it to be something devious.

Sorry to hear about your daughter being a teenager and all that requires! Maybe she gave in more easily because she only has you to go to right now. It's a good thing that she does come to you. I used to love to put my head in my mom's lap; she would stroke my hair, it was so relaxing and I felt so loved.

It's good to know mom's still show love in the same old ways...

You are doing so great, and have handled the girls with such grace; good for you!

Thank you, SL. I was wondering, too, if that isn't why DD12 gave in. I'm all she has right now. I don't feel like I am handling things with grace, I feel like I am stumbling every step of the way. There is no defined path. Thank you for your encouragement.

When DD13 was born, she had a diaphragmatic hernia and had to be flown to SLC to the Children's Hospital. She had surgery that night, H and I arrived the next day (they wouldn't let me out of the hospital any earlier). The only place I could find to touch DD13 was her on her temple, the rest of her body had so many bandages, tubes, moniters, etc. I remembered that's what my mother used to do to me and how wonderful it felt.

They had her in a drug indused coma and I was hoping just my touch could comfort her and let her know that I was there.

To this day, both DDs love to lay with their head in my lap and have me stroke their hair. It doesn't happen nearly as often as it used to but still on occasion. It was nice last night after our struggle, that DD12 came looking for that. It comforts me as much as it comforts her, I think.

I am dreading the day that one of them says "fine, I'm just going to live with my dad"

I am dreading the day that one of them says "fine, I'm just going to live with my dad

ewwwwwww. Never experienced this one (because my dad was never there to run to) but I did experience the 'your not my dad, and you can't tell me what to do!' we were the evil stepchildren. It's better to attempt to bring their dad back into the fold, if that is still what you want.

I know you don't feel like you are doing a good job, but you are. You are protecting your children, you are being a PARENT, none of whom are PERFECT.

Just keep stroking their hair. They may not do it as often as they used to, but when they do, POW, mega love bank deposits. My WH used to stroke my hair, and rub my ears. I loved it! Man! I hope I get that again...

It is what I want for them. For me? I just don't know. And I would only want it for them if WH would put in the effort of being a better dad and rebuilding the bridges he has burnt with DDs.



I will do this every chance I get. Although I am the one doing the stroking, I get love bank deposits for it too.

I soooo wish my H would have been affectionate in that way. Years ago he was. We would rub each others backs and write things and the one who was getting the back rub would have to guess what was written. I can't even remember the last time we did that.......before DDs I think. Since I got pregnant with DD13 3 months after we got married...we didn't do if for long. I used to rub his back often but not the same as we did when we first together. And for the past few years, I'd have to BEG to have my back rubbed (even just after rubbing his), and then often wouldn't get it.

H used to get sinus headaches. I would give him face massages to help lessen the pressure. Did that all through our marriage. Right up until the ILYBNILWY speech.

I hope that returns for you, SL. Those little things are what make the biggest LB deposits.

Fox

How funny, I looked and looked for you and you were on the first page all along! If they are here reading, that's really sad. You'd think with them being SO HAPPY to be together and your WH wanting you to "let him go" they'd have better things to do...

I'm glad your DD came to you like that. My DD13 has told me before that sometimes she gets into a brat mode and can't seem to stop herself. Later, she regrets it. It's nice you were loving to her, despite your disagreement.

I'm not certain he/they are reading here. Just a "feeling". A couple of snide comments he has made. I'm not sure if he was mocking me for having a support group or what he meant by it. Either way, I don't want him here right now. I don't want him to know what I feel (or don't feel) about him right now.

I'm exhausted today and have had a constant lump in my throat. Tears just waiting for the right/wrong comment from someone. Yesterday was like that too.



I think this is what DD12 gets into, too. She can't stop herself from getting into brat mode. Then her pride won't let her apologize. I do the same thing sometimes, fight because I am POSITIVE I am right and then have a hard time admitting I may have been wrong.

But there have been times with DDs that I am short tempered because of the situation. I am later able to recognize that I snapped for no good reason and I will go to them and apologize for my behavior and admit that I shouldn't have reacted that way. Probably should have done that with WH when he was H.

Glad you found me, familycomesfirst!

Fox

Things are still quiet. Today is day #5 of dark Plan B.

I went to a conflict management for women seminar yesterday. It was pretty interesting. It is really fun to watch and listen to someone who is really good at public speaking.

During some of the role play (which I HATE!) I met a woman who is having a rough time in her marriage. Husband is an alcoholic and has complained that she isn't giving him enough SF and he's going to find it somewhere else. I told her what a great site this is and how incredible the support is here.

Thanks for the update! Hopefully the weekend will be peaceful too. When does your H have the girls again?

WH had DDs after school yesterday until 7:50 (20 minutes late) <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

Next week he'll have them Monday and Thursday evening and then will have them all of next weekend.

I would be acceptable to having them come home around 6 Sunday evening but WH wants to bring them back at 1pm. He must be obligated to spend Sunday afternoons with OW. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> He says it is so DDs can get ready for school the next day.

Whatever, I'll take them as much as I can get them. His loss, my gain.

I think quiet is good. I hope so, anyway, because things have been quiet for me, too.

Always makes me a little suspicious when WH is quiet. I start looking over my shoulder to see where he is going to pop up next to make a scene.

I am taking DDs out of town again this weekend, going to some hot springs. More rest and relaxation for us. It's easier to get peace when we are not in the same town.

I was just thinking today how awful it would/will be when/if I go into the same restaurant that OW, WH, and DDs go to some night for dinner. Our town is not that big, it could happen. Made me cry just thinking about it. Seeing them as a family unit, me as the outsider.

Glad things are quiet for you, sdguy. It's hard when they are quiet because we think they don't care, but I really believe that is when they have to start seeing reality. No more blame placed on us (or not as easily)

Fox

(((Fox)))

Hope your weekend is great! Treat and pamper yourself and the girls!

Fox,

Taking care of your own needs is essential to healing. You have had so much drama to deal with, I'm sure the silence is deafening, but you will learn to revel in it, and will appreciate the breaks now and then.

I have had the same thoughts; running into my WH with whoever he may be with, while my son is with him, feeling like I'm outside myself looking in. I told my WH that part of the devastation of him having an A is dealing with the fact that he will be with another woman, possibly having another family, when he has a perfectly good one at home, right now. I also told him that it hurts to think of his hands on someone else. HE became angry with me when I brought that up; as if it's disgusting to talk about! Can't say that I don't AGREE with him on this one, it is DISGUSTING to me!

Anyway, enough of my ranting, I'm supposed to be helping you. So, you take it easy. They do see reality when they are away, NOT FULLY, but they get glimpses of it, and that is part of what draws them back. The trick to recovery is maintaining that drive, toward REAL HAPPINESS, not chemically induced, that is most difficult, especially, it seems, during withdrawal. The drug of choice is sitting and waiting for their call, ready to run away with them and take away all of the pain AGAIN.

The other day I put a calendar up at my desk at work that I circle each day I am successful in Plan B. I started this calendar the beginning of this week...then I thought I should complete it, going back to the day I started Plan B and see the progression. I shouldn'ta done that. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

All the days of successful no contact with WH are circled in red, pink highlight shows days DDs had contact with OW, green highlight shows my contact with WH (email (even through intermediary), confrontation, sitings,etc)

I should have been in Plan B for 35 days. Eleven of those I had some sort of contact with WH. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> That ain't right!

I had 5 days of no contact after PBL
Then 4 days of contact (sick horse, kids scheduling)
Then 3 days of no contact
Then 1 day of contact (high school registration)
Then 2 days of no contact
Then 1 day of contact (WH notified me he was going to introduce DDs to OW, argument ensued)
Then 3 days of no contact (one of those days DDs saw OW, I stayed silent)
Then 1 day of contact (email through intermediary)
Then 1 day of no contact
Then 2 days of contact (emails through intermediary, chorus concert)
Then 2 days of no contact
Then 1 day of contact (WH & OW came to my house)
Then 5 days of no contact
Then 1 day of contact (WH brought OW to p/u DDs)
Then 5 days of no contact (up until now)

In my conflict management class we did a personality evaluation. Can you believe I am deeply analytical? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Fox

Just called District Court Clerk to verify no date has been set. It has. March 13 is the new date.

Geesh, a week from Tuesday. I thought it would take longer than that......

If reality hasn't hit WH by then, it sure will at that point.

MrW,

I've printed your post about a prepared statement to the judge. I am going to work on it this weekend so it is in my own words from my own heart. I will post next week for comments.

It may just be a relief to get this over with. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Fox

I feel like I was given a 6 week reprieve and pi$$ed it away by allowing contact during Plan B.

Fox

March 13th? Awesome! You do need to get this over with! How was your weekend, everything quiet on the homefront?

I am looking forward to it and dreading it at the same time.

Looking forward because I will be able to finally make some decisions and figure out how to go on from here in many ways....and so that WH has to take some responsibility and feel the consequences for what he has done.

Dreading it because once it is done, it is done. No going back. I know the man I once loved so deeply is in that WH somewhere.



Our weekend was pretty good. Started out rough. One of my horses got her leg stuck in something and ripped it up pretty badly. Had to have the vet out and spend more money that I don't really have.

I considered cancelling our plans for the weekend but then decided we deserved it and I would find a way to balance it all out.

Took DDs and my mother to some hot springs. Soooo relaxing! Well worth the trip. We were all up half the night laughing and talking, playing games, swimming, etc. Was really good for all of us.

DDs talked to WH every day. I have had no contact with him for a complete 7 days. Today will be #8.....and counting.

DDs have volleyball tryouts today after school. It is WH's day to have DDs after school until 7:30. DD13 told me WH was going to come watch (as she rolled her eyes). She says NO parents come and watch tryouts.

Came back from the hot springs in time to make it to my grandpa's birthday party... lots of food and family. And no one asked any questions about my situation at all, which was nice.

Good for you on the 8 days of NC! Remember, do not get lured back in, keep your resolve!

Do you find it helping you, Plan B that is.

I do feel like Plan B is helping, bringing the focus back to DDs and myself. Not worrying quite so much about every move WH makes or what he means by what he does, or searching for a glimpse of H everytime I see WH.

I am calmer..not quite so wrapped up in it all.

But I think I am still in withdrawal, too. I go through long periods of being okay and not thinking about H and our life together. But then I have moments like last night where I think about the past and I just cry and cry. Those same old questions come back about how this happened and how did H make this choice? And the fear of the future and how I'm going to get through this without getting myself into the poorhouse and/or the loony bin.

But those panic moments are few and far between and my SURVIVOR instinct kicks back in and pulls me out of my despair. I WILL make it, no matter what WH does or doesn't do. My DDs will have happy and successful lives, no matter what WH does or doesn't do.

DDS and I are a family and always will be, no matter what WH does or doesn't do.

Fox

But I still wonder..........will WH ever regret what he has done and want to be H or is he permanently WH?

I have to let that go and continue as though he will be forever WH. I cannot wait forever for H to reappear.

Fox

{{{FNH}}} It is a tough road, but you are a strong woman, I can tell from your posts. Plan B is good in situations like yours because it allows you to remove yourself from the toxic environment and begin healing. I am so glad it's helping you.

Thank you so much, familycomesfirst. I really appreciate the support.

We posted at the same time! LOL! It's funny you asked that because I almost said your WH will probably regret some of his actions down the road. He jumped from your M to living with another woman, a married one at that with a child of her own. That in itself is not the smartest move. I've always read if you are coming out of an M, you should give yourself at least 2 years to be healthy enough for a serious relationship. Just think, you get to start off free and clear with a clean slate while he's tethered to someone with a lot of baggage related to his M to you. Believe me, it will cause them issues down the road. Trust will be a word they don't have a grip on.

Will he live to regret it? I wouldn't spend too much time worrying about it, if I were you. If he does eventually regret it, his pride might not even let him tell you. Also, if he came back now on his knees, can you honestly say you'd want him back? I think too much has happened, IMO, for you to let him in that easily.

I'm not sure I'll ever have a clean slate. I wonder how to go about not making the next man I am in a R with pay for what WH has done. I don't know how I will ever trust so completely again and not wonder every time he is not with me whether or not he is with someone else.

Even before the A I felt as though my H didn't loved me enough. I didn't feel as though H loved me as much as I loved him. His A only reinforces those feelings.



If he came back on his knees regretting what he has done, I'd consider taking him back. We had family together, one that I dearly loved. If he were ready to make the effort that Recovery would take, I would be willing to make the effort. No, it would not be that easy.

So many things would have to happen and he/I would have to make alot of effort before we got there, but if wewere to do that, I would consider it.

I haven't completely shut that door, but every day gets me closer. The man I have been dealing with since the A is not my H. It really seems as though he has some mental illness that is causing this. Maybe it's my own denial in looking at it that way. But I've known him for almost 16 years and would have never thought he would ever act this way or put his daughters and wife through this.

If the man I knew were to return (with the intent on improving our relationship), I'd want that.

( <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> did I really say that?) Looking back over all that has happened, I don't know how I can still feel that way, but I do.

Fox

Fox:
Never posted to you...but now that I'm in Plan B (as of Saturday) I've got more time to check into what others are doing and how they are holding it together. (Actually trying to make sure I am not crazy.)

We are on a similar timeline. D-day for me was 6/28/06, with the PA/EA beginning March 04. He filed on 10/13/06 and our first settlement conference is on April 26.

(I think WH had this idea that as soon as the 6-month minimum date rolls around--which would be April 13--then POOF! We'd be D'd. No negotiations, none of that pesky stuff about property, pensions.)

Anyway, 'nuf about me. I just wanted to let you know that I appreciate learning from you and getting some perspective on what this process and on the feelings that you experinence as you go through it all.

Thanks, and good luck to you.

LilSis

LilSis,

You are absolutely NOT crazy! I've felt that way too. So many times. I really struggled with going to Plan B and flubbed it up pretty badly until just recently.

You will get peace, it takes time, but already after only 8 days of no contact with WH I feel better. There are moments still, but not so many. You energy level will return and some of the joy of yourself will return after you are not so engaged in battle. I was incredibly exhausted by the time I went to Plan B (I didn't do it nearly as well as you have)....just THINKING all the time about my situation wore me down.

Then I realized by letting myself get worn down so far, I was causing DDs more distress. I am better able to deal with Plan B now because I look at it as giving my DDs back their mother. WH needs to fend for himself, DDs need mommabear.

DDs and I laughed so hard this weekend. Big belly laughs, laughing so hard we ran out of air, and our sides and cheeks hurt. It has been soooooo long since we have done that. And sooooo good for all of us.

I went off ADs in December because I couldn't afford them anymore. I still having crying jags but in a more controlled way (if that makes sense). I don't drive down the road with tears rolling down my cheeks, or choke up at songs (I can turn the radio back on now). Or all those little things that would take my breath away. I am able to hold it off until I'm in my room alone or in the shower. Often I am able to hold them off long enough, the urge passes.

I wish you all the best, Sis. I've followed your sitch faithfully and admire you so much. Thank you for your encouragement. We will get through this, with or without our Hs.

Hang on to your hope, anything is possible.

Fox

Fox,

I felt EXACTLY like you did

But I think I am still in withdrawal, too. I go through long periods of being okay and not thinking about H and our life together. But then I have moments like last night where I think about the past and I just cry and cry. Those same old questions come back about how this happened and how did H make this choice? And the fear of the future and how I'm going to get through this without getting myself into the poorhouse and/or the loony bin.

But those panic moments are few and far between and my SURVIVOR instinct kicks back in and pulls me out of my despair. I WILL make it, no matter what WH does or doesn't do. My DDs will have happy and successful lives, no matter what WH does or doesn't do.

DDS and I are a family and always will be, no matter what WH does or doesn't do.


This summarizes how I initially felt in Plan B, and you feel even more resolve as time goes by. Yes, you may have a D looming in front of you, but you have the power to remain in Plan B even after D, and heal.

Try not to worry too much about what will happen if you meet someone else. I think the pain of this R will remain with IT. If you move on to ANYONE else (WH, new man, etc) you WILL have learned about your NEEDS and BOUNDARIES, and these are healthy attributes for ANY relationship. You will be A-OK.

You are doing an amazing job. It's good to reflect on the changes in you week to week. To reinforce your self-healing and growth. It's not a bunch of psycho-babble, you will be stronger, better, wiser. We can rebuild you....Wai, did I just slip into the start of Six Million Dollar Man! LOL!!!

About regret from WH, you may not care so much about his regrets later, as you will have detached yourself, and will have let him go. Now, I can say, I am very focused. I want my M, but not at ANY cost, NO CRUMBS. I want a duality. I strive for that. If WH CANNOT do it, then I must go it on my own. I have faith that I will have a loving R again. I'm not worried so much about being alone. I'm worried about losing a great R, and breaking up my family. I only have control of me.

I just want you to know that you deserve Kudos for working so hard. The spring is coming, things will be brighter...

It sounds like you're doing well, Fox, or at least as well as can be expected. I wish it didn't suck so much for you and all the rest of us, but you know that things will get better. You have the right attitude--be strong for the girls. Keep it up.

Thanks, SL. It is so nice to know others have felt what I do. That's why I'm on this forum. For the wisdom of others, to gain knowledge from their experience, and for an outside view on my sitch.



I wholeheartedly believe in this. I said in my post above that I didn't feel like my H loved me as much as I loved him. I've come to realize that he probably did, he just didn't know how to show it....his needs versus her needs. And I may have done the same to him...maybe he didn't feel as though I loved him as much as he loved me although he has never told me that.

It all seems so simple, just meet each other's needs. I have learned so much through this process and believe that ANY relationship I am in will be better because of it.



If? If? If? Please don't say IF!!!! That is one of my biggest fears, not finding someone to share my life with. I have to hang on to WHEN. I want to share my life with someone, grow old together, watch our grandchildren grow, etc. I do not want to be alone. I know I would be okay if I was alone, but I want to come home to someone every night and live our lives together.

I know I need my own recovery after D is final but I have to believe eventually I will find someone to share with.

I know you didn't mean anything by the "if" but that is a bit of a trigger for me. Could you tell? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Thank you for the kudos. And spring is my favorite time of year......new growth and awakening.

Fox

She meant when. I bet the if was only IF you have to meet someone because you don't want your WH back.

But I expect that fear is part of your withdrawal and what makes what we're doing so hard. That comfort and sharing has been ripped away from you, and you really feel its loss as you go into Plan B. I suspect it will get easier the longer you go, and you will be more confident in yourself, which will make you that much more attractive WHEN you meet someone (IF you have to).

I share the fear, though, which I think is why I have to fight the urge to go ahead and start looking for someone now.

Oh, sweet fox, I'm so sorry for the 'if'. I sort of meant a when, but didn't want you to think that your recovery wasn't a primary focus.

You are quite YOUNG, and I'm sure beautiful and fun, and you will be stronger and happier WITHOUT anyone. You will be with someone, it's just a matter of who, and if it's not your WH, imagine who you may get to be with....hmmmmm...

No worries, SL. I know what you meant....just struck me is all. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Just got off the phone with my lawyer. He says our hearing will not be March 13. He will be out of town. And he is irritated because he spoke with WH lawyer last week and WH lawyer specifically said no date had been set yet.

My lawyer is calling District Court Clerk to figure this out.

That was quick...lawyer just called back. New date is April 3.

Fox

Grrrr... it just keeps getting moved back!

Good morning, all!

You've got to love DDs!! WH had DDs after school yesterday until 7:30. At one point in the evening they were joking around and trying to figure out where to have dinner. Teasing after DDs couldn't agree on a place to go, WH asked if DDs just wanted him to take them home. (interesting how he calls it home to them). DD13 said "geez, Dad, don't you want to spend time with us?" She said it kind of flustered him. According to DD13 this was all said in a light hearted teasing manner. But I think he got the point....

Score 1 for DD13. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Fox

Gotta love them sassy teens! lol

What makes it even better is that it came from DD13. She is NOT usually sassy, especially to WH. I could see DD12 doing something like that...and not in a teasing manner. That's just how she is <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Did anyone get tremors from your sitch? They started for me on D-day and continue to this day. I went on ADs the day after D-day and the dr had told me they could make me shaky, so for most the time I blamed the ADs. But I went off of them in December and still have the tremors. Not nearly as bad, but still there.

Anyone else experience this? I'm sure it's just stress from the sitch but I would have thought they would be gone by now.

Geez, and I wonder why I have tremors.... I just got served at work for DD13 medical bills that have been unpaid. Before WH moved out, I was making sure these bills got paid. Once he moved out, I've just been getting by with the essentials. This particular bill followed him to his new address and he has done nothing about it.

With MT being a community property state, this bill is my responsibility as well. Which means I will have a judgement against me if I can't get it paid. Just one more thing piled on that I have to take care of.

How much do I have to be responsible for while WH is out screwing around? I'm getting so fed up with this. At least the server was kind enough to call me and ask me to come outside. He asked me about WH and what was the best way to serve him (ok, the devil came out in me a little bit). I soooo wanted the server to walk up to him right in the middle of the office and serve him! But I just told the server we are in the process of a divorce and I didn't really know how he should go about it.

DARN!!! I was just thinking.....I should have had him do it after hours at WH/OW HOUSE! Darn!! I just thought too slow!

Oh well, he'll get it one way or another.

I've called my lawyer (who is the plaintiff's lawyer also) to see what I should do.

Okay, I was quicker than I thought. When the process server called me I wrote down his cell phone number. So I called him back after he left and asked if he had WH home address. He did not...so I told him what it was. He is going to try to serve there before going to WH employer.

I SO hope OW is there. Which she should be, she doesn't leave the house very often on weeknights. She picks up her S7 from daycare and then plops herself in front of the TV for the night. What a fun life!

Now she will see what living with WH is really going to be like. She hasn't had to worry about money since she married her H. Welcome to reality. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Fox

Wildhorses,
HEE HEE!
The pains those waywards have to face! Oh What a pity!
I'm so sorry that you had to deal with this!
Cripes! The addict and his HO! YUCK! Hopefully it goes right back at him!!
My Aunt has lived in MT most of her life, MT people are Great People!
Be dark, dark, dark....!

PGA

Thanks, PGA! I absolutely LOVE MT. I've lived in CA for a few years and visited many places. But MT is HOME. Yep, lots of good people. WH is NOT from this state, although he likes to say he is.

Today is day #10 of absolute no contact with WH. I'm strong today. Starting to finally be able to see a future without WH in it, if that becomes necessary.

I feel like I've been hanging on a cliff by my fingernails with all of my strength. Today I know that I could let that last grip go and there will be earth close below to catch me. I may fall and be a bit bruised, but I will not be destroyed.

Today is a good day.

That is such good news wild! Plan B is all about making YOU stronger.

I'm wondering if his lawyer advised him to chill on harassing you. His stunts weren't doing much for his case...

Hi, familycomesfirst.

I've been thinking he just doesn't want to have anything to do with me anymore. I'd forgotten that my lawyer was going to call his lawyer after the last incident and tell him to leave me alone or I would file a restraining order.

His stunts were actually better for MY case. But it also showed me he still thought about me even if it was negative, now I have nothing.

DD13 says he doesn't ask what I'm doing when he talks to her anymore either.

That's ok, let OW fill his days. If this was going to happen, I'm so glad it's with someone like her. I am confident that the A cannot last. If for some insane reason it does last, H/WH will not be happy.

Well, WH lasted 9 1/2 days without trying to contact me again.

I went home from work yesterday with a migraine. WH called my office, called my cell phone, and the home phone looking for me.

When I wouldn't answer his first call, he met DDs when they were getting on the bus at school. DD13 talked to him and he said "oh, are you guys riding the bus today?" (duh, they were at the bus weren't they?).

DD13: Yeah
WH: I wasn't sure because Mom isn't at work.
DD13: I know. She said she went home and will pick us up at Grandma's later.
WH: Oh, that isn't what she is doing. She went to pick up OWH from the airport.
DD13: Oh, well, I just talked to her on my cell phone.
WH: Did she call you from work or from her cell phone.
DD13: I don't know. I could look if you want me to.
WH: Yeah, please look
DD13: She called from her cell phone.
WH: Oh. Well, I just wanted to stop by and give you guys a hug and a kiss.

Then he called my cell phone again. Then two more times blocking his number. I didn't answer any of them. After I talked to DDs I was worried that he may take them (not his day), so I listened to the voice mail. In a very nice calm voice he was telling me that he just found out that my lawyer had moved the date again and he wanted me to look at the list of days that he wanted DDs for April, May, and June.

I had talked to my lawyer 4 times yesterday afternoon also. So much for resting. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> WH may not know it yet but we have a negotiation conference with WH and his lawyer on March 20 so there is no reason to discuss this back and forth now. And the dates he is requesting are past the final D date. That will all be settled by then, I think he is just trying to tie me into an agreement and then say "look, BS, as already agreed"

WH was also served with the same papers I was the other day regarding DD13 doctor bills. In his message he was asking that I call him back and let him know when payments were made on that bill. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> Find out yourself, buddy! All he has to do is call the company we owe the bill to and find out. He has always expected me just to have information like this at my fingertips. Which I do, but not for him anymore.

I paid these bills right up until he left and I didn't have enough money other than for essentials. When the notices started coming, they came in his name, and I wrote "forward to" on them and sent them to his new address. He must have ignored them. I really hope that OW was there when he got served.

I talked to my lawyer about it and he knows the lawyer who is handling it very well. He is going to talk to that lawyer about splitting the responsibility in 1/2 and than discussing reducing mine in a settlement to get it taken care of. Then my name won't be on the judgement at all. (phew)

My lawyer was the original lawyer on the claim but has since had himself removed since it would be a conflict of interest since he is representing me. So he will talk to the new lawyer and explain the situation and work a deal out. What a relief, that was just one more thing I didn't want to have to worry about. I'm working so hard to keep bills taken care of so this doesn't happen. I don't want to be in debt for the rest of my life. And it would only make the next few years harder as I try to make some changes and hope to move.

I don't understand why he does that stuff to DDs. What is gained by catching them at the bus to tattle on me for something I haven't done? He only makes himself look like an idiot. I had talked to DDs and they knew exactly where I was.

DD13 told me last night that she wished he wouldn't do that. It makes her feel like she is caught in the middle. I told her to tell him that. Say, "Dad, I feel like I am caught in the middle of you and Mom. Please don't ask me stuff about her". I told her to say it nice and respectful and there is nothing wrong with that. WH needs to know how it makes her feel.

Who wants to be met at the bus by your dad when you are in the 8th grade even when life is great?

He also left a message on the home phone, same calm, rational voice asking for the same thing as he did on the cell phone message. Except at the end he said "Please call me back and let me know the answer to these questions. If you don't, I guess I'll assume you are deleting my messages." (defeated sounding voice at this point)

I just don't understand it. I'm attempting to move on.... just like he wanted to do.

Last night was the coaches meeting for volleyball. DDs had talked me into volunteering and I'm really looking forward to it. Should be GREAT fun. Except.....WH is planning on attending EVERY practice and game. He is going to be irritated when he finds out practices are on "his" days. Right smack in the middle of his time. It was not my intention to set it up that way but with the other activities that DDs have, it just worked out that way.

The admnistrator told us to pick Monday or Wednesday first. I had to pick Mondays because DD13 has rodeo competitions on Wednesdays. Monday is WH visitation day. And I had to do it after work so it is set at 5.

Then the administrator said to pick Tues or Thurs, which we will only do for two weeks until games start. I chose Thursday because I didn't want back to back practices of the same event, and Tuesday DD13 practices for rodeo. Again I had to do it at 5 so it could be after work.

So both practices ended up on WH days. I initially felt kind of bad about that, but then changed my mind. Accomodating DDs schedules is part of being a parent. It isn't "his" time or "my" time, it's "DDs" time. DDs shouldn't have to adjust so WH has "his" time exclusively.

Fox

Even with all of this, I am strong today. My mother sent me an email with the following quote. She said when she was going through her D (from my aloholic father), she posted it on her wall to remind of just how strong she was and she knows now that I am strong too. I think we all need that reminder sometimes.

YOU
Are a woman of
Wisdom,
Courage, strength, compassion
& creativity


Go forth, then, with the fire of
Confidence in your heart, kindle it with care
& never let it’s brilliant flame go out!!

Fox

I can't believe him... He doesn't need to talk to you about any of that crap (the visitation schedule, etc). You guys have an intermediary for those questions. He knew MOWH had a flight coming in and he ASSumed you were off to pick him up. When he couldn't reach you, he went straight to the next best source, your DD's. I can't believe he actually said "no, she's picking up OWH at airport" to your DD's. Is that supposed to upset them or make you look bad?

You are right, he doesn't realize it, but he's making himself look like such an @$$ to your DD's. This also proves that they are STILL obsessed with what is going on in you and MOWH personal life. You are roughly a month away from the D being final. He needs to stop concerning himself with what you are doing.

At least you can keep busy at the volleyball practices because you are volunteering. Imagine your H is wallpaper and ignore him. He deserves nothing more from you.

And the quote your mom sent you is so true. Read it again and again!!