Hey fox,

Getting ready to go out and clean the pool, just wanted to drop a note to tell you that I'm thinking about you, and am very relieved that Orchid is here to help you. She has the right delivery, more of a motivational speaker, I guess. BR has great wisdom, but I think her feathers were up, too, and that can affect delivery.

Remember, I went through one whole year without MB, and once I started putting it into play, really applying it, I did feel better. Plan A was horrible for me, I was so bad at it, for reasons that are obvious to me NOW (stubborness, the need to be right and shove it down PWC's throat, not a very good actor, too MUCH ANGER in the ANGER BANK, resentment), but I did hunker down and get a good couple of months in before last July, when I asked PWC to leave AGAIN.

This can all be done, even if it's only to find a better compass, a directional personal recovery.

SL,

Motivational Speaker, eh? LOL!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Hm.... gonna have to let Fox answer that one. Maybe more like a pitbull speaker. I didn't let her go until she told me 'she got it'. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Thanks,
L.

Fox,

I am pasting your post from the other thread so I can respond directly to you:


Your new found strength will also bring new boundaries. Learn what they are and how to use this strength. It can be good and harmful depending on how it is applied.

You mentioned about knowing when your H was hurt or bothered. I had a similar experience with mine. Imagine the 2 of us in the same household but NOT communicating. Is that a setup for fail or what? Me the giver and not wanting to create a problem, so I also 'sucked it up'. H on the other hand dumped a lot of when it came to the real feeling stuff, he internalized big time.

Well I read HNHN. It helped. Since H is not a Harley fan (though he s/b <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> ), I was able to share stuff with him from HNHN but more by action and some dialogue. I didn't quote from the book or anything like that.

So the how you present your new found strength is key to getting the correct intent. Expect the WS to flub that all up but don't dismay. Eventually your real H will know.

I found reverse babble helps put the WS back in their hole and let you get a message or 2 to your real spouse. Kinda complex at first but soon you will get the hang of it.

So please clarify for me, are you going to still be posting on MB?

L.

Post deleted by familycomesfirst

Fox, I'm gonna TJ for a moment

FAMILYCOMESFIRST,

Your input is a precious commodity around here, for insight into what a wayward mind MAY be thinking, and how to handle that as a BS. I would hope that you would stick around and help out where YOU see fit, where your insight can help. Let this all blow over, let it settle. Don't be bullied.

Now, this site IS good for a BS to get back on their feet and find help. I find it serves no purpose to Wayward BASH, and if some posters are doing that, they are doing the board a disservice, by making this an uncomfortable place for a FWS to come and try to help, or attempt to get help for themselves. When tempers get hot, sometimes, humility is left behind.

I hope that you stay and help others as long as you can.

FOX, haven't heard from you, hope you are doing okay today. Let us know, okay?

fcf, PLEASE do not stop posting to my thread. I am so grateful that you have been here. You have a different perspective than others....you see things from the "other" side. You have many valuable things to say, and I want to hear them.

It angers me to hear people say (or imply) that I can't think for myself and must be seeing things through someone else's eyes because I am not agreeing with another poster.

My thoughts and my words are my own. I have the opportunity to learn from EACH poster. I want to see this from ALL sides. I don't have to agree with EVERY angle but by being aware of the differences, I can make informed decisions.

Please don't get chased away, fcf. I like you, too, and don't want to lose a friend because someone tells me you are not worthy. You are worthy and I am grateful you are here.

Thank you for being courageous enough to be here. Thank you for taking yourself out of the fight by putting others on ignore and still being her for me. When I receive a post, I feel that person is speaking directly to me, for my benefit, their take on my situation. By removing yourself from the personal attacks and not attacking back, you show yourself to be a person of strength. Don't be pushed away from here, there are so few former waywards, and it is so hard to imagine what my WH might be thinking and what could happen in the future. Your presence reminds me that reconciliation CAN happen, that it is a possibility. You've done it, others have done it, maybe I will have the opportunity to do it, too.

I don't know what happens on other threads between posters, I don't really care. On this thread, in my posts, it's all about ME! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

CONGRATS on your recovery and your continued strength!

Fox

SL... I appreciate that, it's very sweet of you to reach out to me when you don't really know me. I got blasted for posting my opions on a thread about swingers and it all went downhill from there. Just because I said I understood how some people (not myself) could go down very bad paths to "help their marriage", including swinging. Suddenly I was a swinger with no family values. And they like to accuse others of strawman fallicy... lordy.

People make mistakes, otherwise there would no need for boards like this, right? I do feel FWS's get unfairly beaten down here. It's frustrating when my marriage is going great right now and I'm defending things that happened 5 years ago, before I even discovered MB.

I'll take a break and see how I feel. I've got a vacation coming in two weeks. One whole week away from everything spent on the beach with a bunch of family. We are looking forward to it.

Thanks, SL! For calling out to fcf, too.

Yup, I'm doing darn good today. Had minor email exchange with WH, but no problem there. This week's visitation schedule is being changed up a bit, but he's asking in a respectful way and I'm responding in kind.

I'm not sure where all that chit from me came last week. The ANGER was just a bit overwhelming and I lashed everywhere. It wasn't triggered only by WH being a jerk, that's a given anymore. It was just piles of things at once. I took a break, went on a nice horseback ride with DD13, then a 4-wheeler ride with my mom and now I'm focused again.

Just had to let some of the frustrations out before I became physically ill from it.

I got your vm - just haven't had time to get back to you. Not sure what our time difference is. Still contemplating what my best move on that will be. Thank you for the offer, I haven't discarded it.

Fox

I can imagine this.....this was H and I. I felt like I gave and gave and gave and WH thinks he gave and gave and gave. We must not have been giving what the other one needed in order to see it as a gift.



I'm probably going to need help with this. (Another new found strength, BTW, asking for help)

I think one of H and I's other problems was that I was TOO strong, I didn't want to NEED him. By NEEDING him, it made me weak. I WANTED him, I APPRECIATED what he did for me, but I did not NEED it. I can take care of myself, our DDs, our home, etc. I WANTED his help but didn't NEED it. And when I didn't get it, I was still okay. Resentment built, but I got done what needed to be done when he chose not to.

His mother and Bab's are such NEEDFUL people. I see them as WEAK, WEAK, WEAK. If that is what HE needs, I AM wrong for him. WH mother does not drive AT ALL and relies on everyone else to take care of what she wants, Bab's drives but can't go out of town by herself. If her DS7 has a baseball game 30 miles out of town, she won't go. Even on days her BH is gone and he can't take his son, Bab's DS7 just doesn't get to go. I'd love to take him myself.

If I was that kind of NEEDFUL person, would WH have left me? Maybe not. But what if he had? Where would I be right now? Screwed, with a capital S...C...R...E...W...E...D!



Heck yeah! I can't be chased off that easily! I have much to learn here and much to give back.

Fox

Fox, call if you need me. It's sometimes better to have someone close to you be the intermediary, but if you are in a pinch and you really want to make some changes and restart a MB plan, then I am there.

I do remember so very few posters to me, too, in the beginning, so I didn't apply the plans well, and I got derailed in my Plan, or lack thereof; maybe starting fresh, from a new perspective can help YOU and your kids.

Where are you in all of this if you don't mind me asking...

I couldn't catch up with your situation so I haven't posted to you or kept up with things...

As you may have already noticed, I'm a BY THE BOOK type of MBer so I MIGHT not be a person that you want to hear from...

Fox,

I don't believe that you must be needy of your husband, but I do believe that he needs to feel a part of the family, needed in that capacity, as a father, caregiver, and provider. Examining what parts you may have been excluding him from is really important.

If only you knew how much like you I am. We grew up in the same time, with similar situations. I had only my mother, no father, who was working her tail off, fixing the car when it needed it, buying the groceries, teaching us how to be self sufficient, how to do our own laundry and cook our own meals, so that she could work ALOT, out of neccesity. I learned how to do it all by myself, with no help from anyone, and I would challenge ANY MAN to tell me that I couldn't do something.

When I met PWC, much of that changed in me. I still wanted to learn how to do things, to fix things, out of fear that he would leave, probably. Now that he has left (and come back) I have used those things, and said, "See, I knew I would have to do it all myself, AGAIN!" Self-fulfilling prophecy, maybe.

I don't know your H, but I don't believe that he wants you to be a puddle on the floor, so much as a partner, someone who will listen to him, HEAR him, see beyond the words. Be the woman, faults and frailties and all.

The truth is that each one of us has it within us to do it ALL, but we each also have the need to be a part of something, participate in it. When do you think your H stopped participating, and what might his reasoning have been (not the WH, BTW, but your husband)? PWC stopped participating far prior to his A, so did I, for that matter.

This type of thinking has given me a path to self-discovery. Not necessarily what did I do to CAUSE H to want to leave, but WHY did *I* do the things I did prior to him leaving, why did I push him away and TAKE OVER. Why did I shut him out.

Fox, I'm still not 'needy', probably never will be, but I am an active participant in this R now, as I was years ago. I approach PWC in a caring way, and LISTEN to him, his ideas, his viewpoint, and we discuss things, work them out, POJA. This week has actually been a HUGE rollercoaster ride for me; some doors opened that have been closed for so long. I used to take great care of PWC, and he, me in kind. Not in a sexist way, either, but in a human, loving way.

I would have to hazard a guess that your WH actually appreciated your willingness to take on new things and learn, but part of that may have been HIM teaching YOU, and you appreciating him for it. Maybe not, I could be wrong.

Fox, one thing I learned through all of this, is that my husband NEEDS to feel needed AND appreciated, even if I was capable of doing things on my own. I've always been a take care of business kind-of-gal and my DH has always been a if-it-can-wait kind of guy. I would get frustrated with him and do it myself. He KNEW that. While he would appreciate the things I did to a certain extent, he quietly resented that I didn't LET him be a man/husband in the ways that he yearned to be. I quitely resented the fact that I was doing it all. His first OW was a needy prima-donna to the 1st degree. He was her Knight in Shining Armor.

Since we have recovered, I have learned that one of his top needs is admiration, and I failed miserably in that department. Now I go out of my way to admire him (and not in a phony way) but to also show him respect as a man and a husband. I don't know if this applies to you or not, but this is just how it was between me and my DH pre-affair. We've come a long way since then. Now he's MY Knight in Shining Armor.

I have much to say....I'm gathering my thoughts and will get back to you in a little while.

Thank you for asking.

Fox

That's quite a chip on the old shoulder dear. I had no idea you were a FWW. My comments were directed at your apparent hostility toward those with experience prescribing careful, non-emotional execution of a strategy when the person we are working to help is running over with the emotions that generally arise when dealing with a flagrant wayward such as Fox's.

While you prescribe humility for us Vets, you might do with a dose yourself, as you jumped to a MAJOR conclusion there. I was not wayward bashing. I was contention-bashing if you wish to label it anything.

Would you like to join Fox and me in a study of the Four Agreements? It's an excellent study for calming the emotions and avoiding taking something personally, especially something that was never spoken, implied or even so much as thought about you! There was no need to take the enormous leap you did, and if you'd receive it, I'd love to be a part of the next stage of your own healing!

Fox - what has been brought up about the possibility of your husband's need for admiration and to be the knight in shining armor to a woman - case in point - his mother.

Let's think about this clearly. He's getting dictated to by a clean-freak nazi who does not lavish him with praise, nor admiration. So if this were truly an emotional need, he'd bail on the beatch as fast as he'd drop a bag of lit coals.

I think he is so far in to this, the only thing he has in common with Babs is that the only thing they're thinking about is how to save face. Some people will live through h*ll to save face and avoid "being wrong". The way your daughters describe their living conditions.

I'm thinking he'll wind up more like Believer's X at this point - only I think Believer's X is probably more humble that your WS.

I can't see a single speck of admiration he's getting from Babs right now? Can you?

I am still out here. I do check in from time to time. I just don't get too involved in Plan B posting, particularly with women.

It's supposed to be an individual growth period...not exactly an appropriate place for a married man to help a distraught separated woman. Especially ones that I've tried to assist, have invested myself in hoping for a happy outcome and been very disappointed I was unable to help fix/save. Fortunately, my wife posts on MB as well; but, it's still not prudent to stick like glue to any particular womans thread indefinitely.

Besides, I've never been in Plan B and don't think I would have been good at it. Plan A or Plan D for me. The period of plotting, scheming, strategizing and guessing what's happening, my forte, is over. In case anyone failed to notice, I'm not that big a recovery poster either. I do check in for legal happenings but the deep emotional stuff I leave to the smarter people here. Feelings just aren't logical to me.

HOWEVER, I do want you to know I trust BrambleRose. I agree with her very much here.

As far as this more seasoned poster ignoring you as of late, I recall being frustrated on your thread a couple times with your lack of faith in the MB plans. As I remember you even disappeared a couple of times early on...maybe in the false recovery period...not sure. I certainly have no animosity towards you (I even continued to post) as I see every poster as a work in progress. I didn't do the plan strictly myself...THOUGH I WISH I HAD AND WISH OTHERS CHOOSE TO. BR may have a point about some of the vets, but speaking only for myself...it certainly wasn't a conscience decision. I just don't know where to take a tread/person/Betrayed Spouses at this point. Plan B'ers do tend to drift a bit. Bramble Rose knows exactly where and what you should be doing. She did leave out another reason some don't stick around, I personally hate to watch you all suffer in Plan B. It takes some kind of strong person or maybe an idiotic person to Plan B for TWO YEARS. I can advise it...but I never coulda done it which makes it tough to be of any assitance throughout it. I do have absolute faith in the MB principles that a WS, if and when they do snap out of the fog, even up to two years later, can make wonderful recovered spouses. Through God all things are possible. It can and has happened. I've also seen some great individuals that recovered individually. Strive for either outcome.

I hope I didn't offend...nor enable <snicker>

Good luck,

Mr. Wondering

Fox, the only reason I posted what I did is because of what you posted above. I could be totally off base as Kayla suggests (it wouldn't be the first time! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />)

As with all comments I offer, take what hits home with you and discard the rest. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

PM - I'm not saying your totally off base - it's just not showing up that Babs is meeting his need to be needed. She's basically demonstrating how useless he is to her - in the way, making a mess, overspending, etc...

i.e. I have limited vision to see how Babs is anything like needing him or showing that she needs him.

Nice post, MrW.